Policy Issue (Re-Post from Admin Contact)

[Ash]

Okay, I posted this in admin contact a while ago, and I've received no response. It's a serious issue that needs addressing soon, so I'm re-posting it here.

The whole of the hive lacks a concrete policy, it's current one isn't clear enough and it doesn't cover pre-existing laws regarding forums.

For example, there's Iristle. I've got no issue with her, however without parental consent it is illegal for her to access the hive, with it's current policy. Now, you'd need to either ban iristle -- and all other under 13's -- from accessing policy-covered areas, or adapt the policy to let under 13's in. Otherwise, Ralle is legally viable.

That isn't the only point, though. There are grammatical errors in the current rules, we lack a privacy policy and the chat, too, lacks defined rules. The latter has more issues, as forum rules (see posting) can easily be ignored as you're not, technically, posting a message within the chat, more so broadcasting it.

I'd be happy to help draft up a full policy with the help of other admins, of course, if you think it'd be a good idea. What do you guys think?

 

[Firelord213]

I agree.

 

[Pyritie]

Here we go with you and your policies again, like you did in the mod lobby a while ago.

 

[Elenai]

Elenai facepalms.

I think it would be prudent to have left this in admin contact...This can only go so badly before the end is reached...and we all know it.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

No, as long as we keep on the subject of policies and stray away from any other shitstorm subjects, this discussion can be useful.


Seriously, you don't have to keep stuff like this private. We like to know that new rules are in the works or ar at least thought of.

 

[Ghan_04]

I don't know what policy you are talking about....

 

[Ash]

That's because it doesn't exist, Ghan. The hive has a set of below-par rules and that's it.

Edit:

No, as long as we keep on the subject of policies and stray away from any other shitstorm subjects, this discussion can be useful.


Seriously, you don't have to keep stuff like this private. We like to know that new rules are in the works or ar at least thought of.

Are they? First I've heard of new rules.

 

[Ghan_04]

I meant the illegality of under 13s.

Well, I looked it up, and it is part of United States Code, and therefore would not apply to this site since it is operated from Denmark, where the United States has no jurisdiction.
I do not know of a similar law in Denmark, though it is possible such a law exists.

 

[Ash]

Just a quick bump as I edited my post when ghan replied.

Basically, the hives rules don't cover anything. It lacks a ToS and Privacy Policy, among other things.

 

[Ghan_04]

Well, when anyone registers, they must agree with this:

Forum Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of The Hive Workshop - A Warcraft III Modding Site reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

And the forum rules include information about what is shown publicly to other members:

What is the Public Profile Page?

Every member has a publicly viewable profile page. This page includes information provided by the member, either during the registration process or later on via the User Control Panel.

There are a number of ways to view a member's profile. Whenever you see a member's name, clicking on it will usually take you to view their profile page.

The members list allows you to browse all registered members, and quickly click through to public profiles.

When logged in, you can also view your own public profile by logging into the forums and clicking on your username shown in the header at the top of the page.

You can also go straight to a profile if you know the username of the member by typing in the following into your web browser: http://www.example.com/member.php?username=<username of the member>

What's on the Public Profile Page?

The public profile lists information about the member under the 'About Me' tab. It also includes statistical information, such as the number of posts they have made and their registration date. This information is shown under the 'Statistics' tab.

Other information includes a list of Friends (?), their profile picture (if set by the member), and a list of members who have recently visited the profile page.

A list of the members' albums (?) and social group (?) memberships are also shown.

What are Visitor Messages?

Visitor messages are publicly viewable messages posted on member profile pages. To post a message, click on the 'Visitor messages' tab, and use the form at the top of the section. You will only be able to use certain formatting in these messages, as described underneath the edit box. This message will be viewable by all visitors to this profile, including guest users and search engine robots if the administrator has allowed this. To communicate privately with a member, send a Private Message instead.

Visitor messages can be edited or deleted by site moderators or the member who owns the profile. If you see a visitor message that is not appropriate, you can alert the moderators by clicking on the 'Report' link. The 'View Conversation' link allows you to view all visitor messages between the member and the owner of the profile.

 

[Ash]

However it doesn't go on to state about the sites use of cookies, personal information or any of the other things generally considered to be in a privacy policy.

 

[Zombie]

The age restriction makes no sense at all. On the net you can lie about your age anything you want. Noone will bother checking it. Also, Iristle is the least to worry about of the under 13 category. I agree that the chat needs a better defined rules section, and site rules must be read by all new users. Maybe you should make a T/F test system that tests users knowledge of the rules after registration. Ghan, noone actually reads the agreement of registration. Everyone just scrolls down and ticks the box.

 

[Ash]

And what does that mean in English, please?

 

[Volvox]

It means that 'cool' boys don't read nor care about the rules and true it is.

 

[~Void~]

Yawn. Just because someone knows the rules doesn't mean they will follow them. The rules are obvious and apply to almost any site.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I think we're talking more on the side of legality here.

 

[Hakeem]

I had assumed the registration agreement covered any liabilities, but what Ghan posted does not appear to.

 

[donut3.5]

I think we're talking more on the side of legality here.

It's about as illegal as a twelve year old buying Warcraft III. (Hint: It isn't. The "T" rating is more for the parent's guidance than anything.)
And if you're worried about a twelve year old surfing the Hive because we're oh so inappropriate, then either you need to become less of a prude, or you need to link me to some awesome threads I'm not seeing.
If you really care about some underage kids roaming around a massive forum that you partake in, then I'd suggest looking into books, or guitar or something. Hell of a lot better hobby than trying to chase a few kiddies off of a website.
And to be honest, I doubt you care that much about the Hive breaking a law or two, especially after Ghan said it was perfectly okay.
So my real question is: Are you just out to piss off people under thirteen? Do you have some personal vendetta against them? If no, then why on Heaven, Earth, and Hell do you want them gone so bad?

And BTW, WILL, this wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at all the people who target those under thirteen, yet still maintain a maturity level lower than the person they're targeting. Your post was just the one I chose to quote.
--donut3.5--

 

[Hakeem]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ash isn't saying that we need to get rid of 13 year olds. I'm pretty sure he's implying option #2: rewrite the policy so Ralle is not legally responsible for 13 year olds accessing the site.

 

[donut3.5]

Well, I looked it up, and it is part of United States Code, and therefore would not apply to this site since it is operated from Denmark, where the United States has no jurisdiction.

--donut3.5--

 

[Gausslander]

Perhaps we should require users to take a history and IQ test before registering? Your suggestion has no reasonable solution, Ash. Remove the ones who actually have their age listed as 13?... or 7?... Who might be 21, 19, 16, 15, what have you?

 

[Newuser]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Ash isn't saying that we need to get rid of 13 year olds. I'm pretty sure he's implying option #2: rewrite the policy so Ralle is not legally responsible for 13 year olds accessing the site.

Yes, basically. Even though it's unlikely for some random person to come here, notice something not covered in the agreement and notice a something wrong(in terms of law), then do a lawsuit or something, it could happen(though very small) and it can be easily fixed easily.

It's about as illegal as a twelve year old buying Warcraft III. (Hint: It isn't. The "T" rating is more for the parent's guidance than anything.)

Actually that only applies to an ESRB rating of "M"(17+) or higher, and even then, it's only "illegal" for "some stores" that have a "policy" to forbid selling those(M rated) games to minors without parent approval.

However, something like a policy that is broken(which is the 12 or younger without parent approval on this site) or an undefined policy about something(like cookies, as Ash said) that should be defined in the policy could be illegal and could cause problems(though very unlikely).

Although it's very unlikely any "legal actions" would be brought up against hiveworkshop, since we brought it up, might as well fix it(if we can) I guess.

Well, I looked it up, and it is part of United States Code, and therefore would not apply to this site since it is operated from Denmark, where the United States has no jurisdiction.

--donut3.5--

Though he also said it could be "possible".

I do not know of a similar law in Denmark, though it is possible such a law exists.

Your suggestion has no reasonable solution, Ash. Remove the ones who actually have their age listed as 13?... or 7?... Who might be 21, 19, 16, 15, what have you?

I actually haven't read Hive Workshop's registration policy, if it has 12 and under can't register without parent approval on there, can it be removed?

Removing people whom's age is 12 or under and allowing under 13 like Ash said could work I guess(Don't know actually, I don't pay much attention to any policies or laws of policies for sites so I don't know if it's possible to do something like that or if all forums have that age restriction thing)

 

[Steel_Stallion]

I don't understand why you people care, who the fuck is going to take legal action against a Warcraft III modding community?

 

[Hakeem]

Yeah, you'd hope that be a valid question, huh?

 

[ragingspeedhorn]

I take umbrage of The Hiveworkshop. You can expect a lawsuit any minute now! ANY MINUTE!

 

[Ash]

... /sigh.

The under 13's was an example. Way to act before reading the whole post, guys.

 

[donut3.5]

Onto your main idea:
How many people who utilize the chat room do you think would actually read the rules?
How many of those people who read them actually care?
The point is that Moderators are the rules more than any written rules. The rules are guidelines, the Moderators' words is the final rule (well, admins and ralle being the ultimate final ruling). Other than that, users should know what's appropriate and inappropriate, and if they can't discern between right and wrong I don't feel any remorse when laying down a kick or ban.
Most of the time, I usually only kick flamers, trollers, and spammers. They should have enough common sense to know not to do that.
What other rules do we need?
--donut3.5--

 

[Ash]

Once again, we need a fully-functional, concrete set of rules. This consists of, but certainly isn't limited to, the following:

Terms and conditions of usage,
Privacy Policy,
Website Disclaimer,
Copyright Notice,
Acceptable Use Policy.

We actually need rules regarding the chat, too. As it stands I could appeal a ban simply because I was banned without breaking any rules, as there aren't any for the chat room.

Your main point at negating my suggestion -- that is 'How many people who utilize the chat room do you think would actually read the rules?' -- is fair enough, though. We obviously don't need any rules for the website at all, or any laws for that matter too; people won't read them.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

And all of this because someone decided to make the site a .com, I love it.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

I still don't get why we should, the generic rules apply here in chat and the forums...

Don't spam.. don't flame.. don't link to pornographic material (DAMN).. don't post anything pirated/stolen etc...

Whats with all this legal bullshit?

 

[Dr Super Good]

Well, firstly people under 12 are not allowed to play WC3 legally, they still do however.

Secondly this is the internet, everyone can lie about their age. If some kind of legistlation states that someone needs to be of a certain age to become a member and they lie about their age, then the site should not be responsiable as its not their fault the person lied. When I registered with WC3Search I am sure there was an age restriction forcing you to say you are over a certain age inorder for your account to be created. THW should have the same as that would technically stop all people under age of registering. If they lie about their age it is not the sites problem and so the person who lied can not do anything legally against the site.

 

[Deathcom3s]

What you're talking about DSG is called a COPPA registration sheet. And it requires the member to state if they were born before or after a date(usually the date of their registration, but 13 years subtracted).

And although people can lie about their age, they could not file a lawsuit based on the fact that the website is not suitable for those under 13, because the COPPA form acts as a disclaimer.

~Death

 

[~Void~]

Perhaps we should require users to take a history and IQ test before registering? Your suggestion has no reasonable solution, Ash. Remove the ones who actually have their age listed as 13?... or 7?... Who might be 21, 19, 16, 15, what have you?

But that's stupid. Most people have their ages listed differently than they actually are. Take me, for example.

 

[Falconeye]

Well to be honest there is really no way to enforce the above 13 rule (Which doesn't matter). And I really don't think a twelve year old would abide by it when they register.

 

[Steel_Stallion]

Ffs...

... /sigh.

The Under 13's Was An Example. Way To Act Before Reading The Whole Post, Guys.

 

[Ash]

Thanks for that, Steel.

Back to the issues at hand, this isn't something you can just shun off by saying 'I r a hardman i dnt cre 4 teh rules bcuz i wnt reed it' as most of you have done, it's something that needs to be, legally, there and in place.

Although the chances of something happening are fairly slim, Ralle is extremely legally viable if anything does happen. After all, better safe than sorry. On top of that, several rules are 'more of guidelines' -- to quote other people, of course, -- this means that I can appeal it by saying 'no, this doesn't break the rules as there are none'. Chances are I'd be ignored, but I could kick up a shitstorm over it.

All in all, this needs to be done. Regardless of how many internet hard guys disagree. It needs to be, legally, in place so that Ralle doesn't get the shit kicked out of him in court, if it ever happens, and most of all, it needs to be done so that future shitstorms can be ignored by saying 'yes you did, you broke rule X'.

I've already said that I'd be more than glad to write some stuff up and work alongside the admins, although their responses to this thread is -- shockingly -- rather low.

Tbh, this should've been dealt with in AC, I shouldn't of had to bring this to the open eyes of the public. I could've done this in private with admins, after all this will hardly affect the majority of users as you're all generally -- morally, of course -- rule-abiding people.

Now, please admins, can we get this done and out the way with?

 

[Ralle]

I will reply in AC.

Thanks for pulling my attention to this subject.