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Patch 1.1.2 – Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty

Discussion in 'Latest Updates and News' started by tagg1080, Oct 14, 2010.

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  1. Kam

    Kam

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    Reapers = useless
     
  2. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Reapers still are useful, you just need to play well with them.

    Unlike zerglings, zealots or marines, they need micro to be of any use. They end up insanly fast and can 1-2 shot SCVs and deal pretty good DPS to buildings but die to something sneezing at them. Thus you use them to hit and run stuff. For example if an enemy is attacking you and you have the attack micro under control you then use the excess micro on reapers to kill some scvs or buildings. You can also use them to pluck off expansions if the enemy does not cover them for some reason.

    Ultimatly their effective use is probably out of reach of the average player.
     
  3. Kam

    Kam

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    Right. Blizzard can't start balancing this game to favor high APM players, it's got to be balanced for the average. I was 8 games above 50% win/loss as terran pre-patch, now I'm 20 games below 50% post patch in the space of 2 days.

    I simply have my limits as to how much I'm willing to sink into this game on a weekly basis. APM requires practice to increase, and like the majority of players I don't have time to be playing 100 games a week. What they've done is simply take units out of the average players unit pool.
     
  4. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Sorry but you seem to have not throught that statement through much...

    Blizzard has been emphisizing how SC was created for serious competitive gaming ever since they announced it. Although ballencing for averages is nice and seems to be well ballenced to most, it results in strange annomilies which lame if not kill professional play and can cause hardcore players to stop playing.

    What appears to be ballenced with the average player could be totally rigged in the hands of a person with high tactical skill or fast respones (high APM). As a result you will end up with an imballenced distribution in high skill games where only one stratergy for each race or even race is viable to play. As SC2 plans to make a decent amount of income from professional events, this would kill it.

    Thus the only way to ballence a game is for the better players and work down with that. This way professional or hardcore play is extreemly viable and it provides room for people to grow into it without getting bored or complaining.

    Frankly, the average SC2 player sucks. I believe most players belong in the low league range and the number is so large people are reporting higher league players still doing stupid things. The result would be a totally unballenced and ruined game if anyone listend or designed around them because they want to win most of the time and can not do simple tasks. Keep in mind that this is not talking about you but about people in general on the EU client.

    An extreem example favoruing me...
    If I gave you electronic PCB CAD software and asked you to make a PCB to drive an electronic scale, you would probably be one of the over 6 billion people in the world who can not do it. This by no means makes the software unballenced and frankly it would be usless if most of the world could use it due to the dumbing down needed but in the hands of an electronic engineer you can create amazing things with it.

    An extreem example not favouring me...
    I suck at football. That does not mean they need to ballence it so I play average at it and if they did, it would ruin professional play and probably kill the sport.

    At the end of the day, you can not expect to compete with people who make it their lively hood or hobby to be serious in something. This has been part of life since before humanity crawled out of jungles and forrests of Africa.

    Welcome to ladder ballencing. The game will always try and keep you at a 50% win ratio. If you are winning too much (8 games above 50%) it will match you against harder opponents until you lose more than 50%. If you are losing too much (20 games below 50%) it will match you against weaker opponents to bring up your win loss ratio. The only time you will deviate from the 50% mark is during transistions (up becomes greater, down becomes less), if you are matched with incorrect skill levels due to lack of availability (eg after server resets) or if you are near the top or bottom player in the world (where your skill literally is unmatchable).
     
  5. Kam

    Kam

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    You seem to miss my point. What they did to reapers puts it beyond what most people can use, it requires too much micro now. What they should have done was simply nerf the reaper itself, say -20% DPS, not increase all the requirements so that a player must now fast tech to a factory if they want to take advantage of the reaper fully. Likewise with the depot change, which makes it impossible for most people to rush as terran, again what was needed was a nerf to marine build time or rax cost. I've been balancing my map for WC3 for a long time and I understand what they were thinking, but they went about it the wrong way.

    Yes, that system is terrible. There is no league system in play, it's a ruse. If it were a league I would not play outside of that league until it decided to move me to the next league. The system in WC3 was fine, you play level 30 people if you're level 30 - you don't play a level 45. The best real life example is baseball - you don't take a rookie league team and pit them against the pros because they won 8 games in a row, you poach the good players and get them contracts on the pro team. Of course I'm going to maintain a 50% win ratio if it pits me against diamond players when I'm silver or gold.
     
  6. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    Reapers needed a buff, not a nerf. I don't see why people are discussing which nerf reapers needed when they were already far too weak thanks to +1 roach range.

    By buff I mean build time (maybe down to 30 seconds), not a stat boost, cost reduction, or anything.
     
  7. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    You are right DSG but I saw many top/pro players complain about reapers, so this is not just for lower skilled. The reason why they are now useless is because terran tend to build fast rax sometimes with fast reaper vs zerg now is pointless to do that after such delay. And the rax after supply certainly suggests one type of strat than said fast rax and some more different rush. Reapers are for early even the beginning in that situation.

    Like one of these players said now with preventing the fast rax etc you basically allow zerg to expand no prob /eh i was never a reaper user i prefer hellions but now roaches certainly make me change even hellions because now they seem to go roaches more often .../ which ofc isnt fast gg zerg. And as correctly stated... Zerg in very late game is just likely to win, should it get some ultras.
     
  8. davidwillson

    davidwillson

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    In all seriousness, I understand where they're coming from with most of these changes. Depot before rax is kind of silly since it didn't really spell any imbalance, just added more interesting openings.

    As of now, I don't know why anyone would get reapers other than for very early game scouting reasons or something. The unit has become almost useless.
     
  9. slake

    slake

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    Well after reading all the posts (50% of people actualy don't know what they are talking about) I have the feeling that there are only Terrans on this topic.

    #Supply Depot before Baracks is needed because a lot of Terran players went EARLY reaper which devastated Zerg and Protoss alike, if I am correct no race besides Terran could actualy withstand that furst early push made of 1-3 reapers because the time needet to get out the first zerglings or zealots was far greater.
    Ofcourse we take into account that in some maps Reapers are not as effective because the small number of cliffs, this means the Supply Depot before Baracks was a partialy needed improvement of balance.

    #Roach range was increased because they were too weak in late-game, still I wonder how is this balance when from weak Roaches are now something far greater, destroying Melee units and Ranged units alike. Still Marauders, Immortals and Colossus are a really hard counter to Roaches.

    #The removing of energy in Thors and Corruptors was a needed change in my opinion. This change was "a must" because of High Templars being Very effective against Thors and Corruptors making them almost useless with the ability Feedback. Ofcourse Corruptors are usualy in greater numbers then Thors, thus having much greater chances of being effective in a batlle but Thors....well lets just say that this is another thing. Taking half of a Thors HP in the first seconds of batlle is huge.

    #Void Ray damage nerf makes Void Rays atleast in my opinion useless. The Void Ray being overpowered thing is bull ****. If a player has even the smallest ammount of knowledge over Void Rays he will scout his enemy's base and find that Starport, thus having the oportunity to create an effective defence in time. Void Rays are fragile and cost too much to be nerfed. All this because of some stupid bronze league players complaining on the forums.

    #I am neutral in terms of the Medivac speed nerf, I understand that players have to look at the minimap but when you knew that the oponent had Medivacs you had to be constantly looking at the minimap thus losing time and focus on your macro.
    Much players had problems reacting to Medivacs becuase of their speed, so Blizzard made a small but maybe notable change. Only time will tell how this change is good or bad.

    #The increase in Nexus and Hatchery HP is a good buff because Terran players had the chance to quickly destroy these buildings with only some Marines and Marauders. Not really a game changer, if you destroy the other players' Nexus\Hatchery then this probably means he has no army to defend with so you're just moving in for the kill and destroying some stuff on the way to be sure you have the upper hand.

    Had no time to comment about the other changes...not that someone cares...

    PS:please quote me and comment where you think I'm wrong so we can work it out :)
     
  10. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    Yes, I'm a Terran, but I support the game being balanced.

    No, you're wrong. We never saw early reapers in TvP after the beta because they are so weak, and in TvZ the roach 4 range and reaper speed factory requirement already kill 5rax reaper even without depot before rax (turbo reapers loses to lings in tvz).

    Reaper cliff jumping is more important for scouting and fleeing, not for offence. It's their speed and damage to light units that makes them so strong offensively.

    Roaches seem fine.

    Thors are still bad late game against Protoss, but I like that you can get 250mm up earlier for early Thor-Marine-SCV pushes to take care of the occasional Immortal.

    Actually, Void Rays were nerfed because MakaPrime (one of the best players in the world) demonstrated a Zealot/Sentry/Void Ray all in which was far too strong in TvP. He sent replays to Blizzard documenting it, a lot of explanations on why it was so strong, and so on.

    So no, not Bronze league players whining.

    No, it was because they could be in so many places in TvZ but mostly TvP. Hasn't really mattered a huge amount though.

    Players with bad attention spans will still lose to drops.

    The Zerg buffs were fine, but I don't like how much life some Protoss buildings (Nexuses, Assimilators etc) have compared to their Terran and Zerg counterparts.

    So yeah, almost everything.
     
  11. mrzwach

    mrzwach

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    If reapers getting nerfed screwed you over so bad, you should try some less cheesy openings. If it wasn't the reaper nerf, then, well, no offense but you probably didn't belong in the ladder where you were.

    Reaper nerf was a bit too much imo, especially since they gave zerg a way to prevent 5raxlame. Also no one counters reapers with zealots.

    APM is irrelevant, considering you should be matched up against players of similar skill and thus similar APM levels.
     
  12. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    I think you don't know what you r talking about. No doubt a protoss player.

    I watch lots of top replays and I played enough in beta to notice that something was wrong with VRs they did wayy too much damage and I noticed that since beta. No need to be Maka or Loner or whoever. And im not talking about mass VRs no other units. Just stalkers sentries and VRs, you have marines, let's say stimpacked so what? VR still kills with ultra dmg, no need to even use stalkers.

    Also one game frm August Lucifron vs ... some protoss, wow what a show, Void Rays raped battlecruisers, yes I know they do when charged but hell that was a show, like damage cheat enabled killed all army. So the VR damage nerf finally. Eureka!

    It seems from my best MU TvZ turned into my worst MU after. TvT my strat from beta became way ineffective, learned a new one from one player replays and now I do fine in mirror. Have to do the same in TvZ. I find Z ok no imba.
     
  13. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    Void rays (warp rays) were meant to hard counter battlecruisers, blizzard intended that since before the beta... This lattest nerf sort of ruined them, as I showed there are a lot better DPS options that are not a glass cannon nor have unstable DPS.

    They could have given them additional damage against massive targets as well as armored as BCs and carriers are both armored and massive so would get high DPS while armored alone would get much reduced. Now I feel that void rays just do not do enough to be worth their cost.
     
  14. MGCǂSpectre

    MGCǂSpectre

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    Im fine with making them anti-BC but they couldn't leave that damage vs weaker units only to hard counter later units. Also with the speed nerf now VRs require some control unlike the past A-move noobs
     
  15. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    The speed nerf was to prevent them from hitting and running without any problems. A lot of aircraft exist now that can chase them down and obliterate them.
     
  16. PurplePoot

    PurplePoot

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    Voids were too good against Marines.
     
  17. rcshaggy

    rcshaggy

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    Where do I find these updates so I can update my Starcraft II?
     
  18. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    You do not find them, they find you...
    Run the game main executable (StarCraft II.exe). Make sure you have a valid internet connection active. Finally just wait for all the update dialogs to complete and start the game. You will be up to date.
     
  19. rcshaggy

    rcshaggy

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    Okie dokie then and I just thought it did the same with Warcraft with Battlenet.
    Meh.
     
  20. Dr Super Good

    Dr Super Good

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    It is pretty much, since the game defaults to battlenet it updates while starting the game unlike WC3 which only updated when loading battlenet.
     
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