Patch 1.1.2 – Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty

[tagg1080]

StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty – Patch 1.1.2
General

• Players will no longer receive achievement toasts while their status is set to "Busy."
• The messaging when attempting to load a saved game or replay from a previous version has been clarified
• Adjusted the amount of points earned and lost by random team participants to properly reflect the strength of a player's teammates.

Balance

• PROTOSS
  • Buildings
    • Nexus life and shields increased from 750/750 to 1000/1000.
  • Void Ray
    • Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
    • Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
    • Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.

• TERRAN
  • Buildings
    • Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot.
    • Supply Depot life increased from 350 to 400.
  • Medivac
    • Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25.
    • Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.
  • Reaper
    • Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement.
  • Thor
    • Energy bar removed.
    • 250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (useable immediately after upgrade is researched).

• ZERG
  • Buildings
    • Hatchery life increased from 1250 to 1500.
    • Lair life increased from 1800 to 2000.
    • Spawning Pool life increased from 750 to 1000.
    • Spire life increased from 600 to 850.
    • Ultralisk Cavern life increased from 600 to 850.
  • Corruptor
    • Energy bar removed.
    • Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).
  • Infestor
    • Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
  • Roach
    • Range increased from 3 to 4.

Bug Fixes

• Fixed an issue where players could not cast the Feedback spell on Point Defense Drones.
• Fixed an issue where the Phoenix would continue to channel Graviton Beam after the target died.
• Fixed an issue that would cause Larvae to spawn and be hidden behind Zerg eggs.
• Fixed an issue where players were unable to navigate to the Single Player page or watch replays after canceling map downloads from the queue.
• Fixed a desync that could occur on user-created maps with custom mod dependencies.

Copied and pasted as I wait for it to install^

The roach range increase makes NO sense to me, not even a little bit.

Terran nerfs are actually pretty funny to me, and I would stand with the crowd that says to just remove reapers all together, but whatever.

The building life adds are ok I guess, supply depots are the biggest though, imo.

The zerg buildings should be squishy, as they only need 1 to pump out a million of that unit, so I don't really agree with that change though.


Any other thoughts?

 

[TheBronze]

So many changes directed at the Reapers.

The barracks requirement, the nitro packs, the increase in roach range (I think they wanted to give them more range and make them more of a counter to Reapers since they are armored, and Reapers get the bonus vs light units), and the increase in life for early Zerg buildings.

Fact is, Reapers were unstoppable vs Zerg. You could kite lings and Roaches (with nitro packs), easily kill Spines with their massive bonus vs buildings, easily kill Queens also with the bonus vs light units, and just tear the Zerg apart. In fact, Zerg just sucks.

I made a thread a long time ago about the Terrans being imba and the Zerg being horrible, and now two patches later, it appears I am correct.

Still, the Roach range increase sucks for Zealots.

The one thing that would fix Zerg quick, is to swap Hydras and Roaches in the tech tree, and then buff Roaches and increase their cost. Problem solved, Zerg can use superior range on Lisks to hold off Reapers, and it provides them with an early anti-air unit, so they aren't so vunerable Rays and Banshees.

 

[tagg1080]

But honestly, am I just not watching the right professional games?

Most of the top level games that I watch of late, there is absolutely no indication that reapers need this much nerf.

Why?


They are such a weird unit, and at least right now, are only ever used for rushes. So what, we are supposed to use them past the first 2 minutes of the game?

MMM is freakishly strong, people are not going to change that to add reapers, so they are just going to become an obscure unit that you pwn noobs with as a joke.

In my opinion, of course.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Finally Void Ray damage nerf, that was hyper imba once charged didnt need any other units just kills buildings, units, in secs. And I made a 'nerf that VR damage' thread in beta forums months ago but no blizz response.

The supply depot thing, it kills those reaper rushes that I last saw in beta and for me that's ok. So should be fine, depot then rax is normal BO. So gg Reapers, I barely used them anyway. I never learnt to abuse with Reapers but I dont need to as TvZ is my strongest MU still and hellions are just fine.

For the Thor/corruptor no energy bar is also ok. Overall I like the patch and the Void Ray dmg nerf is def a pleasant surprise.

 

[PurplePoot]

Reapers don't need this much of a nerf, TheBronze is busy watching 2 month old replays and not remembering that +1 range on roaches makes 5rax reaper useless anyways or something, because Reapers were only "unbeatable" for about a 1 week period around IEM, and while they were a bit too strong up until this patch (well, more accurately, Zerg was too weak against them) it forced you into bio which is bad against Zerg and that made up for it in many cases.

--

MMM is crap and I wish it would be changed. It's too strong early game in TvP and pathetically weak late game, which makes for a very lame matchup (especially since the only other option is arguably Marine/Banshee and it suffers from exactly the same problem). In the other matchups it's obviously awful.

--

Supply depot before barracks and reaper nerf is stupid. Corruptor and Thor buffs are good. Void Ray buff is good and bad but Void Rays are still a fundamentally stupid unit. Zerg building life buffs are good because they died far too fast before (although I don't think Hatchery/Lair needed it). TheBronze is still an idiot. Everything as normal.

--

Bronze, to address you directly, everyone knew that TvZ favoured T when you were acting like a prodigy for saying it. However, your reasoning was pretty much completely wrong. It's kind of like saying "quantum mechanics is our best current model of small-scale physics because the sky is blue." and then when, two months later, some famous scientist says that quantum mechanics is our best current model of small-scale physics you go "Aha, see? SEE? I'm a genius!".

 

[mrzwach]

The roach range increase makes NO sense to me, not even a little bit.

Stab in the dark here, but you don't play zerg, do you? It does help.

The zerg buildings should be squishy, as they only need 1 to pump out a million of that unit, so I don't really agree with that change though.

Because losing one tech structure can block you from getting a certain unit for a while, they should be easier to lose?

Fact is, Reapers were unstoppable vs Zerg. You could kite lings and Roaches (with nitro packs), easily kill Spines with their massive bonus vs buildings, easily kill Queens also with the bonus vs light units, and just tear the Zerg apart. In fact, Zerg just sucks.

You did see the GSL tournament, right?

Void rays.. eh, I suppose its good that they changed it from being complete shit to dealing insane amounts of damage, but I don't think this really helps them much (since really the main reason to use them was for their insane charged damage). Especially with their speed nerf, they can probably be kited by vikings now regardless of whether they have the upgrade. It does make them less lame for sniping command centers and such, but eh.

 

[noob134]

The roach range increase makes NO sense to me, not even a little bit.

I read somewhere(i dont remember so dont hold me to it) that the increase in range is an attempt to make roaches more effective later in the game.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

-- Watch Brat_OK vs DarkForce on Shakuras Plateu, Zerg wins, Zerg Mutalisks reach Medivacs.... Protoss can feedback Medivacs...

The Medivac speed nerf is stupid and unnecessary like one of the Craftcup winners that I see says:

'plenty of good terrans say the only way to beat a P that knows what hes doing is effect his economy .....' No medivac harass...

Otherwise the rest is fine with the patch, I've never been a reaper user much to be a prob the depot requirement for rax. But this makes the Terran strats less flexible in the beginning as the same player I quote stated.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

@TheBronze fail.
Reapers do not need such a giant nerf. 3 roaches can take care of a lot of reapers. with the range buff, even the reapers with nitro packs will die to them easily. The rax after supply is pointless... the only fix that was needed is the reach buff. and why the hell do they keep buffing the thor??? lets just make that unit invulnerable next patch.
Vr's were op when charged. every anti air died like one shot from charged vr's. the speed up is very required because of that, with no kiting a charged void does terrible terrible damage.
The fungal growth should of prevented blink in the first place.

 

[HINDYhat]

Fixed an issue where the Phoenix would continue to channel Graviton Beam after the target died.

Finally, a protoss buff.

In all seriousness, I understand where they're coming from with most of these changes. Depot before rax is kind of silly since it didn't really spell any imbalance, just added more interesting openings.

As of now, I don't know why anyone would get reapers other than for very early game scouting reasons or something. The unit has become almost useless.

Removal of thor energy annoys me, but I'm not sure if it's a good or bad change in terms of balance.

etc.

 

[Dr Super Good]

This is damn unfair, the patch still is not out yet on EU servers... Nowonder I was not able to post it first.

I fear that these changes might have weakoned terran cheese against high level AIs. Additionally starving AIs to death is now a lot harder as both nexus and hatchery have more health (a considerable amount more infact).

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Removal of thor energy annoys me, but I'm not sure if it's a good or bad change in terms of balance.

Well Hindyhat, the feedback was meant to be anti-caster, I believe, counter to medivacs, ghosts, things with energy. Thor shouldn't be really like a caster >_<

I say let this thread be moved to the News coz im tired of seeing 2 threads 1 here 1 at news for the same thing, thats not good

 

[tagg1080]

Stab in the dark here, but you don't play zerg, do you? It does help.

Because losing one tech structure can block you from getting a certain unit for a while, they should be easier to lose?

1. I understand that it helps them, I do play zerg, i just don't get why it was needed.

2. But you only need ONE hydra den, and you can SPAM hydras, where as the other races need to make a bunch of producing buildings. Making the buildings squishy allows the other races to stop production of that for a little while, just as zerg can corrupt, or destroy buildings.

 

[HINDYhat]

2. But you only need ONE hydra den, and you can SPAM hydras, where as the other races need to make a bunch of producing buildings. Making the buildings squishy allows the other races to stop production of that for a little while, just as zerg can corrupt, or destroy buildings.

You lose your spawning pool -> you cry yourself to sleep.
Random protoss opponent loses one of his 100 gateways -> he laughs and proceeds to rape you by producing out of 99 structures instead of 100. Boohoo.

 

[tagg1080]

You lose your spawning pool -> you cry yourself to sleep.
Random protoss opponent loses one of his 100 gateways -> he laughs and proceeds to rape you by producing out of 99 structures instead of 100. Boohoo.

But that is balance factor:

To be able to spam lings, I put in 200 minerals.

To be able to spam 'lots, the amount of money you put in to be ABLE to spam, is MUCH higher than that.

 

[mrzwach]

Except that gateways can produce more than one unit type.

Also, that's the way zerg plays. Zerg is not Protoss, in the same sense that stalkers are not marauders and high templar are not ghosts. The game is fun to play because it is diverse, and because each race plays differently.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Ok blizzard must be launching the patches during the working day. As such I guess Europe will not see it until sometime later this morning when the EU devision gets into work.

 

[PurplePoot]

Reapers are good in the cauthonluck 1rax FE and that's about it now, it seems. qxc has been arguing for them late game but I'm not convinced that they are actually good late game vs he just really wants to make them good (for example his ghost build in tvt).

 

[Rui]

I'm extremely pleased that the Void Ray has finally been nerfed. It was simply lame that you could charge them up in a main and destroy an entire army and base with only two or three of them. Stalkers are armored, so they suffer from the +armored bonus, and Zerg can't get anti-air that fast.
The Supply Depot requirement is indeed silly, I always get my Barracks before the Depot for a quick Mule =\, I am not sure what the deal with the Medivac is, but I agree with Nitro Packs requiring the Factory and that Reapers don't need that much nerf, in spite of that. As for the Thor energy removal, I'd say it's bad for Protoss, because Immortals are not that good fighting them due to the dual hammer attack, and since most people don't use 250mm cannons, High Templars could deal out straight 200 damage, which is half of the Thor's HP.
On the same note, the Corruptor energy removal was a plus. The other changes are okay.

And I'm happy that I can finally use my Phoenixes normally.

 

[PurplePoot]

Immortals still beat Thors. They cost less minerals and half as much gas.

 

[ArneXis]

Here are some changes not included in the patch notes I pulled of a starcraft site:

-Fungal Growth now prevents vikings from changing modes.
-Fungal Growth now prevents Siege Tanks from siege-unsieging and units from Burrowing.
-Fungal Growth does not prevent Corruption or 250mm Cannons, or spells like HT storm.
-Medivacs CAN load/unload if the medivac is FG but marines cant load back up if the marines are FG.

The fact that you can't siege your tanks while fg is on is way imba imo.

 

[PurplePoot]

I don't really see how. You'd have to be caught pretty horribly off guard while doing a push for that to happen, and I don't see why you wouldn't be paying attention during a push.

 

[Rispetto]

That Barracks requirement has made me re-think my strat, considering they were both generally built around the same time (barracks usually first). This complicates things.
God damn Blizzard, THEY DIDN'T NEED TO NERF RINE RUSHES! THEY NEEDED TO NERF ZERG APM!

 

[tagg1080]

god damn blizzard, they didn't need to nerf rine rushes! They needed to nerf zerg apm!

qft.

 

[Jaakko]

I like the changes since I like zerg.

 

[PurplePoot]

That Barracks requirement has made me re-think my strat, considering they were both generally built around the same time (barracks usually first). This complicates things.
God damn Blizzard, THEY DIDN'T NEED TO NERF RINE RUSHES! THEY NEEDED TO NERF ZERG APM!

If you aren't playing ultra aggressive (which you usually shouldn't be), try this:

10 supply
12 rax
13 gas
15 orbital command
15 marine

Make stuff up from here.

If you do it right you will never be waiting on supply, resources, or unit build times in the case of upgrading the command centre to an orbital command.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).

Ok the actual damage progression of void rays now goes...
6 (+4 armored) - Uncharged
6 (+4 armored) - Slightly charged
8 (+8 armored) - Fully charged

When fully upgraded...
9 (+4 armored) - Uncharged
9 (+4 armored) - Slightly charged
11 (+11 armored) - Fully charged

Fire rate is a constant 0.6 per attack.

That means the maximum DPS of a void ray (long combat) with all air upgrades is....
15 (21.7 to armored) - Uncharged
15 (21.7 to armored) - Slightly charged
18.3 (36.7 to armored) - Fully charged

This makes them seem pretty shit, especially since charge time is still atleast 7.2 seconds and the upgrade level looked at is late game and they cost a fortune.

Lets compare it to a selection of units fully upgraded etc...
Stalker
13 (+4 armored)
Every 1.44 seconds
DPS - 9.0 ( 11.8 to armored)

Immortal
26 (+39 armored)
Every 1.45 seconds
DPS - 17.9 ( 44.8 to armored)

Thor
AA
4 * 9 (+9 light) with splash
Every 3 seconds
DPS - 12 ( 24 light) with splash

Ground
2 * 39
Every 1.28 seconds
DPS 60.9 ( 15.6 to shielded immortals)


Notice how the immortal does more armored DPS than a fully charged void ray at only slightly less normal damage and it should be noted that it costs 50 gas less. Thus you can probably conclude that against armored land armies immortals are far better than void rays.
We can also conclude that stalkers are more cost effective DPS wise against normal units than void rays and still deal more damage per second until they are fully charged.
Thors still get seriously countered by void rays dealing 12 to them for every 36 the void ray does if you manage to keep splash under control but it is even clearer that immortals not only out DPS void rays against thors but they also have no problem with splash and greatly nerf the damage (each thor only does 15.6 DPS to immortals while shielded).

Void rays still move at 2.9531 when upgraded. This is still faster barely than vikings. It is however greatly slower than both phoenixs and mutalisks.

Thus I recon most of the use of void rays will be middle herasment now, especially of terran players who's vikings still can not out speed rays. Additionally you might find them usefull killing retreating units because they are still one of the fastest units in the game.
The real problem is that stalkers are better combat units in every way unless your opponent is very lax on anti air. For the same cost as a single ray, you get 2 stalkers with more combined life and shield, more dps and no 7.2 second startup time. Stalkers also have blink which can reduce losses with high micro players, and can still hit both land and air.

Honestly, I still have my doubts about the general viability of using void rays outside of terran and protoss (as I doubt they will have phoenix craft to destroy you all the time) herassment. Zerg just need some mutalisks and I seriously doubt the rays stand any chance at all.

 

[PurplePoot]

Stage 1 and 2 do the same amount of damage and are only different graphically, and what they are referring to as "stage 2" is actually stage 3.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Sorry, was updating my post, I have done some research into the exact damages some basic units deal. Frankly I discovered to my amazement that a stalker duo (same cost as a ray) actually out endures and damages a ray (due to charge time) now.

I also show some evidence why immortals hard counter thors big time. Do also remember that immortals cost half as much gas as thors (but a pair costs more minerals).

 

[Avex]

Supply depot = Barracks?

Wut?

Wheres the logic?

 

[PurplePoot]

Nobody else knows either.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Its to prevent the bunker rush cheese that many people were complaining about where terrans would rush up a proxy rax or something near their base and attack with all thier workers + some marines. I did not particually think it would be hard to counter considering the SCV is targatable during construction and immobile...

Or perhapse it was to stop the reaper rush where people would build a rax and reaper insanly fast and then procede to kill workers with nothing the player could do.

As poot pointed out, it has little influence on high level play because no one does that sort of thing so I guess it was a sort of disiplinary measure to encourage beginners to play better.

As for lore logic, who the hell cares cause you can make a starport as long as you have a factory even if the rax for the factory is dead so it is not really a requirement chain.

 

[Deolrin]

Logic: The soldiers in the barracks need supplies? :/

And Immortals were always far better than Thors(and still are), unless you take into consideration that the opponent might also have some marine or ghost support for his thors(Ghosts are pretty much the protoss' worst enemy, as far as I can see :|).

The void ray max damage nerf saddens me, since they're now a lot weaker against main structures and as such mostly useless to me, except for big anti-air like corruptors.

 

[Avex]

I still believe the ult units need to be buffed.

Motherships in lore are legendary for their power and how strong they are, but yeah, 10 marines with stimpacks can kill it in about 10 seconds.

Thors are also extremley weak, but I think Ultra's are fine.

Want mothership buff pl0x.

I also wanted my Worldbreaker abillity T_T

 

[PurplePoot]

Uh, it had a huge impact on high level play. Zerg can basically go hatch before pool.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I still believe the ult units need to be buffed.

Motherships in lore are legendary for their power and how strong they are, but yeah, 10 marines with stimpacks can kill it in about 10 seconds.

Thors are also extremley weak, but I think Ultra's are fine.

Want mothership buff pl0x.

I also wanted my Worldbreaker abillity T_T

Things are in the direction: balance so if we have to go lorelike Purifier that makes a crater on the ground that wouldnt be melee, right. Thors are now like in early beta except for cannons cost upgrade. I think they are fine.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Thors are also extremley weak

Thor
AA
4 * 9 (+9 light) with splash
Every 3 seconds
DPS - 12 ( 24 light) with splash

Ground
2 * 39
Every 1.28 seconds
DPS 60.9 ( 15.6 to shielded immortals)

How on earth is that extreemly weak... Thors deal more DPS than nearly 2 void rays to ground units making them probably one of the highest DPS units in the game. Obviously they will be weak to mass counters though so you would not want to throw thors against immortal spam or ultralisk/ling combos. Additionally they are weak against any non light aircraft meaning you must watch out for enemy air (they are only good against mutalisks, banshees and phoenixs or something).

 

[mrzwach]

I still believe the ult units need to be buffed.

Motherships in lore are legendary for their power and how strong they are, but yeah, 10 marines with stimpacks can kill it in about 10 seconds.

Thors are also extremley weak, but I think Ultra's are fine.

Want mothership buff pl0x.

I also wanted my Worldbreaker abillity T_T

Thors are good. Buffing them would be stupid, especially since they are feedback immune now.

Also, Immortals completely dominate Thors. The only unit that they hardcounter better are probably sieged siege tanks.

 

[Dr Super Good]

The only unit that they hardcounter better are probably sieged siege tanks.

I doubt that because their single target DPS is not that high actually. Also their splash is not going to hit more than 1-2 thors atmost. Their low endurance probably means you can just bulldoze through them with thors.

 

[mrzwach]

I meant the only unit that Immortals hardcounter better. >_>

 

[Kam]

Reapers = useless

 

[Dr Super Good]

Reapers still are useful, you just need to play well with them.

Unlike zerglings, zealots or marines, they need micro to be of any use. They end up insanly fast and can 1-2 shot SCVs and deal pretty good DPS to buildings but die to something sneezing at them. Thus you use them to hit and run stuff. For example if an enemy is attacking you and you have the attack micro under control you then use the excess micro on reapers to kill some scvs or buildings. You can also use them to pluck off expansions if the enemy does not cover them for some reason.

Ultimatly their effective use is probably out of reach of the average player.

 

[Kam]

Right. Blizzard can't start balancing this game to favor high APM players, it's got to be balanced for the average. I was 8 games above 50% win/loss as terran pre-patch, now I'm 20 games below 50% post patch in the space of 2 days.

I simply have my limits as to how much I'm willing to sink into this game on a weekly basis. APM requires practice to increase, and like the majority of players I don't have time to be playing 100 games a week. What they've done is simply take units out of the average players unit pool.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Right. Blizzard can't start balancing this game to favor high APM players, it's got to be balanced for the average.

Sorry but you seem to have not throught that statement through much...

Blizzard has been emphisizing how SC was created for serious competitive gaming ever since they announced it. Although ballencing for averages is nice and seems to be well ballenced to most, it results in strange annomilies which lame if not kill professional play and can cause hardcore players to stop playing.

What appears to be ballenced with the average player could be totally rigged in the hands of a person with high tactical skill or fast respones (high APM). As a result you will end up with an imballenced distribution in high skill games where only one stratergy for each race or even race is viable to play. As SC2 plans to make a decent amount of income from professional events, this would kill it.

Thus the only way to ballence a game is for the better players and work down with that. This way professional or hardcore play is extreemly viable and it provides room for people to grow into it without getting bored or complaining.

Frankly, the average SC2 player sucks. I believe most players belong in the low league range and the number is so large people are reporting higher league players still doing stupid things. The result would be a totally unballenced and ruined game if anyone listend or designed around them because they want to win most of the time and can not do simple tasks. Keep in mind that this is not talking about you but about people in general on the EU client.

An extreem example favoruing me...
If I gave you electronic PCB CAD software and asked you to make a PCB to drive an electronic scale, you would probably be one of the over 6 billion people in the world who can not do it. This by no means makes the software unballenced and frankly it would be usless if most of the world could use it due to the dumbing down needed but in the hands of an electronic engineer you can create amazing things with it.

An extreem example not favouring me...
I suck at football. That does not mean they need to ballence it so I play average at it and if they did, it would ruin professional play and probably kill the sport.

At the end of the day, you can not expect to compete with people who make it their lively hood or hobby to be serious in something. This has been part of life since before humanity crawled out of jungles and forrests of Africa.

I was 8 games above 50% win/loss as terran pre-patch, now I'm 20 games below 50% post patch in the space of 2 days.

Welcome to ladder ballencing. The game will always try and keep you at a 50% win ratio. If you are winning too much (8 games above 50%) it will match you against harder opponents until you lose more than 50%. If you are losing too much (20 games below 50%) it will match you against weaker opponents to bring up your win loss ratio. The only time you will deviate from the 50% mark is during transistions (up becomes greater, down becomes less), if you are matched with incorrect skill levels due to lack of availability (eg after server resets) or if you are near the top or bottom player in the world (where your skill literally is unmatchable).

 

[Kam]

You seem to miss my point. What they did to reapers puts it beyond what most people can use, it requires too much micro now. What they should have done was simply nerf the reaper itself, say -20% DPS, not increase all the requirements so that a player must now fast tech to a factory if they want to take advantage of the reaper fully. Likewise with the depot change, which makes it impossible for most people to rush as terran, again what was needed was a nerf to marine build time or rax cost. I've been balancing my map for WC3 for a long time and I understand what they were thinking, but they went about it the wrong way.

Yes, that system is terrible. There is no league system in play, it's a ruse. If it were a league I would not play outside of that league until it decided to move me to the next league. The system in WC3 was fine, you play level 30 people if you're level 30 - you don't play a level 45. The best real life example is baseball - you don't take a rookie league team and pit them against the pros because they won 8 games in a row, you poach the good players and get them contracts on the pro team. Of course I'm going to maintain a 50% win ratio if it pits me against diamond players when I'm silver or gold.

 

[PurplePoot]

Reapers needed a buff, not a nerf. I don't see why people are discussing which nerf reapers needed when they were already far too weak thanks to +1 roach range.

By buff I mean build time (maybe down to 30 seconds), not a stat boost, cost reduction, or anything.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

You are right DSG but I saw many top/pro players complain about reapers, so this is not just for lower skilled. The reason why they are now useless is because terran tend to build fast rax sometimes with fast reaper vs zerg now is pointless to do that after such delay. And the rax after supply certainly suggests one type of strat than said fast rax and some more different rush. Reapers are for early even the beginning in that situation.

Like one of these players said now with preventing the fast rax etc you basically allow zerg to expand no prob /eh i was never a reaper user i prefer hellions but now roaches certainly make me change even hellions because now they seem to go roaches more often .../ which ofc isnt fast gg zerg. And as correctly stated... Zerg in very late game is just likely to win, should it get some ultras.

 

[davidwillson]

@TheBronze fail.
Reapers do not need such a giant nerf. 3 roaches can take care of a lot of reapers. with the range buff, even the reapers with nitro packs will die to them easily. The rax after supply is pointless... the only fix that was needed is the reach buff. and why the hell do they keep buffing the thor??? lets just make that unit invulnerable next patch.
Vr's were op when charged. every anti air died like one shot from charged vr's. the speed up is very required because of that, with no kiting a charged void does terrible terrible damage.
The fungal growth should of prevented blink in the first place.

In all seriousness, I understand where they're coming from with most of these changes. Depot before rax is kind of silly since it didn't really spell any imbalance, just added more interesting openings.

As of now, I don't know why anyone would get reapers other than for very early game scouting reasons or something. The unit has become almost useless.

 

[slake]

Well after reading all the posts (50% of people actualy don't know what they are talking about) I have the feeling that there are only Terrans on this topic.

#Supply Depot before Baracks is needed because a lot of Terran players went EARLY reaper which devastated Zerg and Protoss alike, if I am correct no race besides Terran could actualy withstand that furst early push made of 1-3 reapers because the time needet to get out the first zerglings or zealots was far greater.
Ofcourse we take into account that in some maps Reapers are not as effective because the small number of cliffs, this means the Supply Depot before Baracks was a partialy needed improvement of balance.

#Roach range was increased because they were too weak in late-game, still I wonder how is this balance when from weak Roaches are now something far greater, destroying Melee units and Ranged units alike. Still Marauders, Immortals and Colossus are a really hard counter to Roaches.

#The removing of energy in Thors and Corruptors was a needed change in my opinion. This change was "a must" because of High Templars being Very effective against Thors and Corruptors making them almost useless with the ability Feedback. Ofcourse Corruptors are usualy in greater numbers then Thors, thus having much greater chances of being effective in a batlle but Thors....well lets just say that this is another thing. Taking half of a Thors HP in the first seconds of batlle is huge.

#Void Ray damage nerf makes Void Rays atleast in my opinion useless. The Void Ray being overpowered thing is bull ****. If a player has even the smallest ammount of knowledge over Void Rays he will scout his enemy's base and find that Starport, thus having the oportunity to create an effective defence in time. Void Rays are fragile and cost too much to be nerfed. All this because of some stupid bronze league players complaining on the forums.

#I am neutral in terms of the Medivac speed nerf, I understand that players have to look at the minimap but when you knew that the oponent had Medivacs you had to be constantly looking at the minimap thus losing time and focus on your macro.
Much players had problems reacting to Medivacs becuase of their speed, so Blizzard made a small but maybe notable change. Only time will tell how this change is good or bad.

#The increase in Nexus and Hatchery HP is a good buff because Terran players had the chance to quickly destroy these buildings with only some Marines and Marauders. Not really a game changer, if you destroy the other players' Nexus\Hatchery then this probably means he has no army to defend with so you're just moving in for the kill and destroying some stuff on the way to be sure you have the upper hand.

Had no time to comment about the other changes...not that someone cares...

PSlease quote me and comment where you think I'm wrong so we can work it out

 

[PurplePoot]

Well after reading all the posts (50% of people actualy don't know what they are talking about) I have the feeling that there are only Terrans on this topic.

Yes, I'm a Terran, but I support the game being balanced.

#Supply Depot before Baracks is needed because a lot of Terran players went EARLY reaper which devastated Zerg and Protoss alike, if I am correct no race besides Terran could actualy withstand that furst early push made of 1-3 reapers because the time needet to get out the first zerglings or zealots was far greater.

No, you're wrong. We never saw early reapers in TvP after the beta because they are so weak, and in TvZ the roach 4 range and reaper speed factory requirement already kill 5rax reaper even without depot before rax (turbo reapers loses to lings in tvz).

Ofcourse we take into account that in some maps Reapers are not as effective because the small number of cliffs, this means the Supply Depot before Baracks was a partialy needed improvement of balance.

Reaper cliff jumping is more important for scouting and fleeing, not for offence. It's their speed and damage to light units that makes them so strong offensively.

#Roach range was increased because they were too weak in late-game, still I wonder how is this balance when from weak Roaches are now something far greater, destroying Melee units and Ranged units alike. Still Marauders, Immortals and Colossus are a really hard counter to Roaches.

Roaches seem fine.

#The removing of energy in Thors and Corruptors was a needed change in my opinion. This change was "a must" because of High Templars being Very effective against Thors and Corruptors making them almost useless with the ability Feedback. Ofcourse Corruptors are usualy in greater numbers then Thors, thus having much greater chances of being effective in a batlle but Thors....well lets just say that this is another thing. Taking half of a Thors HP in the first seconds of batlle is huge.

Thors are still bad late game against Protoss, but I like that you can get 250mm up earlier for early Thor-Marine-SCV pushes to take care of the occasional Immortal.

#Void Ray damage nerf makes Void Rays atleast in my opinion useless. The Void Ray being overpowered thing is bull ****. If a player has even the smallest ammount of knowledge over Void Rays he will scout his enemy's base and find that Starport, thus having the oportunity to create an effective defence in time. Void Rays are fragile and cost too much to be nerfed. All this because of some stupid bronze league players complaining on the forums.

Actually, Void Rays were nerfed because MakaPrime (one of the best players in the world) demonstrated a Zealot/Sentry/Void Ray all in which was far too strong in TvP. He sent replays to Blizzard documenting it, a lot of explanations on why it was so strong, and so on.

So no, not Bronze league players whining.

#I am neutral in terms of the Medivac speed nerf, I understand that players have to look at the minimap but when you knew that the oponent had Medivacs you had to be constantly looking at the minimap thus losing time and focus on your macro.
Much players had problems reacting to Medivacs becuase of their speed, so Blizzard made a small but maybe notable change. Only time will tell how this change is good or bad.

No, it was because they could be in so many places in TvZ but mostly TvP. Hasn't really mattered a huge amount though.

Players with bad attention spans will still lose to drops.

#The increase in Nexus and Hatchery HP is a good buff because Terran players had the chance to quickly destroy these buildings with only some Marines and Marauders. Not really a game changer, if you destroy the other players' Nexus\Hatchery then this probably means he has no army to defend with so you're just moving in for the kill and destroying some stuff on the way to be sure you have the upper hand.

The Zerg buffs were fine, but I don't like how much life some Protoss buildings (Nexuses, Assimilators etc) have compared to their Terran and Zerg counterparts.

PSlease quote me and comment where you think I'm wrong so we can work it out

So yeah, almost everything.