[Role Playing Game] Monster Master RPG II: The 13th Gate

[Noxx-]

It's all good. As long as you plan to keep working on it during the summer as stated, I'm content and I imagine others will be as well.

 

[Deathly_God]

Wow I'm really excited about this map! I just found out about the new version today (I'm so behind x.x) but I've probably spent over 400 hours playing this game, getting every tier 5 and helping a lot of people who were stuck in the game besides! Hopefully I can assist with any programming glitches if you ever need me. I sent you an e-mail but dunno whether you reply to PM's or emails better.

I had a few concerns regarding the monster breeding system among other things. Firstly, will the breeding (I'm assuming not) be similar to MM RPG and DQM I and later versions by consuming 2 of the monsters, effectively destroying them, to make one, or would it be pokemon-esk so that they pop out a little one? Because if they combine that would cause a lot of problems. A few other things I've noticed. In all honesty, and this is from my other map making and RPG making experiences, passives end up not being super over powered. If you balance them to be low'ish %'s (like a 10 or 15% evasion at MOST) then they shouldn't be placed in an uber tier, or at least not all of them. For instance, bash should be placed high up because fast attack speed monster can abuse, but crit could be placed near the bottom (if at like 10 or 15%) due to the fact that however you itemize, you will have the tradeoff between bigger crits, or faster attack speed. Effectively, you are trading a slot that could go for a big damage spell vs a second auto attack. Viewing it that way, high damage spells and super heals should go near the top, followed by auras (due to the multi-effects of it on other monsters), in this 2nd tier I'd argue chain heals and things like Rejuvination, and AoE slows/silences and/or summons (if you're bringing that back, a personal favorite of mine). 3rd tier would be things like Evasion, hard skin (- dmg per hit taken), Holy light (or a channeled heal, or w/e you're doing, would be single-target though, generally only moderately effective spells like a light dmg Rain of Fire, or a Frost Nova / Blizzard.) In the bottom tier would be effectively shitty balanced spells mostly for beginning units and sometimes useful bonuses when max'd out (like say, purge, faerie fire, etc). Of course these lists would have to be tweaked, and you'd have your own ideas as to how this would work out. I'm not sure if you want there to be spells who purposely fall off later on (like Cloud in MM RPG, or Cyclone), or if you want everything to be competitive (would be really hard due to the mega spells, which wouldn't be very rewarding if they were all equal'ish). Ultimately though it comes down to balancing. If you wanted to make the passives god-tier'ish and make them super %'s then that's your call, but in my opinion it would make it really dull. I personally liked the PvP in MM RPG because when you had monsters like Mirudoras coupled with Dark Dorem and Tahuma, you could use a mixture of spells and attacks to burn people down, but the spell dmg would help burn through the people with high armor, and the attacks would kill all the low-armor and health stacking monsters.

TL;DR - I'd advise a tier list where passives are a bit lower, and aura's would go above them in priority, seeing as they are essentially passives for the whole team while only filling 1 slot of 1 monsters spell choices. Additionally, designing some spells to purposely fall off gives incentives to people to try their hands at breeding.

P.S. I was pretty unorganized writing this so I apologize if you have any questions feel free to PM me or reply on the forums. Also there should be (in my opinion) an in-game tutorial, since I and a lot of my friends like to try the game without looking up online guides, so HAVING to look up online for how to do proper breeding and w/e would be a drawback for a lot of people looking to start, rather than dabbling first and then getting into it later. Also, you could/should have an option of repeating quests per-game, since things like GoH got tedious doing all the quests every time when you were end-game, but I was glad I could redo them during the leveling phase due to the XP and gold rewards. Just my thoughts on the game as I've been reading through the posts (Also, maybe clearer text for the IV's, Robbe's method for FL was confusing people until I discovered the total system with it's harsh rounding down.)

Also, I realize you are taking a break till the summer, which suits me actually really well. I will be having a lot of free-time this summer, so if you need me I should respond within a day or two at most. As I e-mailed you, I've spent ~5 years in various map-making clans, and have beta-tested a wide variety of games (most of which had a small following, and then died out later, like Shamanism, Wintermaul, and approximately 12 RPG's which the creators gave up on during development). I look forward to seeing how you handle this and how the game turns out!

 

[sethmachine]

@hopop201 and Noxx-
Thanks for your patience. I've just got a lot of stuff on my plate with graduation this spring and a thesis to write. When I started this project, I had never written any JASS or even made a map before. I dedicated more than a month to this project and I think I got a lot done. Which means when I get back to it, it will go by much quicker.

That being said, I will continue to monitor the forums and answer questions, plus any updates.


@Deathly_God

Thank you for your enthusiasm and excitement. I went through the same feeling--I stayed up many nights coding the map, and many more not being able to sleep, just thinking about how awesome it will be once it's completed.

I believe the breeding mechanic will be very similar to fusion--the two mated monsters will be gone forever, leaving behind a single egg. Part of this has to do with gameplay, and the other part has to do with the lore/mythology/universe I am creating. If the two mated monsters did not "vanish," then players would easily run of room. In addition, since each breeding is a net loss in terms of monsters gained, players eventually need to journey back out to recruit new monsters. In pokemon, players rarely catch new pokemon unless they don't have it or are looking for a certain variant of it (e.g. shiny). Breeding will also be non-determinsitic, much like genetics, in that the combination of X and Y will either be A, B, C, D, … with some chance for each result based on a number of factors. This will encourage repeated breeding and experimentation. Part of the monotony of pokemon is there is little incentive to go out and capture pokemon already recorded in the pokedex. Eventually you get them all. Having this mechanic will constantly give players something to do which I do not think is boring.

I have not yet determined the exact mechanics of skill inheritance, since it's completely unnecessary for the beta (in which there will probably be no breeding anyway). My belief is that monsters should feature a balanced skill set that requires some micromanagement on the part of the player to keep them constantly immersed in the game (you cannot afford to look away or send your guys on attack move for any long period of time without taking too much damage, etc.).

In regards to the tutorial, I also believe it is very important. The first quest of the game is basically a tutorial which gets players used to the basic mechanics of the game. But I will also be putting up a guide on the forums when it gets to that point. It takes a lot of time to make a comprehensive tutorial in-game, so I think a mix of the tutorial quest and reading will be sufficient.

There will be no repeatable quests. The quests and the progress made on each will be saved each time. There will be at least fifty or so scripted quests, possibly more. In addition, to add replay value, there will also be dynamically generated quests (non-scripted quests generated in game). This means even if you beat the game there will always be some new quests available to do.

I did receive your email and since I saw your message here I responded here. I will certainly consider your help and input when I return to finish the project.

 

[Deathly_God]

@Seth that sounds great! I was wondering if you had played any of the newer Dragon Quest Monster games (I myself had finished the newest, Dragon Quest Monster Joker 2 a few months ago). The reason I ask is because in that, when you fuse your monsters, you pick your skills between the skills of your 'parent' monsters. The RNG basis for the breeding could be a huge problem I see for the competitive play, unless you impliment a way for a certain move to be 100% guarenteed to be crossed over (Imagine having 2 spells you wanted, and going for the 3rd erased your previous 2.) You could combat this by having them pick the spells they want through items, however each would have either only a certain number of skills you can posses at once, or you'd have spell 'sizes' so that people could pick as long as the sum of the values associated with the spells was less than your number. With making the breeding a huge time consuming chore AND making it freely customizable, you run the risk of forcing people into a pre-determined build, rather than having the freedom and flexibility to try different combinations due to the sheer amount of time it would take. While it shouldn't be super easy to get your desired spells, it would be hard enough to pick 3 or 4 spells out of over a hundred, not even talking about the complimentary items or interplay of abilities. Just my own take on the system, but either way I expect it would be a lot of fun! There are also several other methods for determining the spells if you were going to go through the fusion customization route, but they're a bit more tricky and I'll leave them out for now. (Also if you plan on keeping fusion between two people open, then perhaps the RNG spells might not be the best route since it would deter people with better monsters from helping players who are below their level/skill sets, but that's something to think about as you said after the beta and the skill transfer system is implemented).

I was hoping you would do the non-Pokemon approach however, since I agree completely that it makes things really dull really fast.

I really look forward to this project, regardless of if I take part in the production or not! This game is easily one of my favorites and I wish you luck in it's production! Also, I don't know if you've seen the early terrain for the first MM RPG, but it was horrible ha ha! Honestly, the segmented way of going about it might be easier for the first versions (like what's put into the newer MM RPG's). It's been my experience that it is exceedingly difficult to structure a map so that the new players have a sense of where to go and don't turn into a super leveled or significantly harder zone without making the whole map a single path, more or less like Pokemon. Just some thoughts!

 

[sethmachine]

@Deathly_God

So far this is how skills work. All monsters have three 'natural' skills that they will always learn based on their specific monster species. Monsters which are offspring of two parents will always have their three skills, and in addition, will inherit one random skill from each parent. There will be no skill picking, and yes, since it's based on chance, it could take a very long time to get the right skills.

But this isn't a problem because building the perfect team is an extra thing that isn't needed to actually complete the game and enjoy it. That's more for perfectionists or expert breeders. And I am not making the map with competition or PvP in mind. It is more about getting immersed in a universe that is meant to be explored with your monster companions, who come and go (imagine, if you will, a journey ^^), just like friends throughout our lives.

I understand all too well the problems and monotony of the original MMRPG's terrain. The worlds I am making are not linear but more like overworlds. Imagine something like Skyrim. You have a vast overworld with many different dungeons, towns, cities, etc. Dungeons themselves will probably resemble those linear levels of MMRPG. But each world will beg you to explore it and uncover its features, many hidden in plainsight.

 

[Deathly_God]

@Seth That sounds amazing! Now I'm even more excited (if that's possible) to see how this pans out!! I only worried because how it sounded before, was that it was fully customizable (I realize my error now! ) I do really like your ideas, and it seems like the dungeons wouldn't be the hardest to implement world-wide. I just wanted to pick your brain about how you're going to actually spawn the monsters in the zone. Are you going to do like GoH RPG where they spawn randomly in the zone? Or (more interestingly I think) if the dungeons were similar to like, Monster Dens, you could have them spawn from there and spread out throughout the zone, although where they might go in the area would be something that would be needing hammering out. It would help lead people to the dungeons too if you take that route, but it may cause some problems if the player happens to run into a big wave of spawns as they are trying to enter. Although that might provide an interesting challenge in it of itself, so maybe it's a good idea. (A cool mini-event thing, something from Monster Hunter RPG could be like, a 'rare' super monster with a chance to spawn every game, unlocking a secret'ish side-quest to go kill (or in this case, maybe capture) it. I realize you're not actually really working on it now, but the spawn methods tend to have a bigger impact on game-play than people tend to recognize

 

[sethmachine]

@Deathly_God

In regards to the creep spawning system (CSS) I have actually tested and developed a large part of it. If you have played Skyrim (or Oblivion), the creep spawning mechanic is meant to mirror the random encounters. That being said, there are two ways monsters are encountered.

1. Random encounter - You can come across Monsters while exploring an overworld/dungeon/etc. You will generally have a choice if you want to fight them or take a different path to avoid them.

2. Ambush - Occasionally hostile monsters will attack from off screen without warning.

Like Pokemon, there will also be multiple zones per area, i.e. you can only encounter certain monsters in a certain geographic area. There won't really be any super rare or secret monster spawns (breeding is the mechanic for this), but in dungeons one of the possible rewards are Dream Eggs, which can hatch into rarer/more unusual monsters.

Unlike MMRPG I, there are no pre-placed creeps and each monster you encounter in the wild is randomly generated each time. In addition, all wild monsters (except those belonging to a certain family ^^) are recruitable.

I have not fine tuned the parameters of the CSS yet (lots of trial and error) but its current design is to make journeys into the worlds difficult but rewarding. The creeps are meant to gradually wear down your party, which means if you try attack moving or patrolling without controlling your monsters' spells, you won't last too long. While it's hard to simulate the excitement and nervousness of a first person game with random encounters (and the chance of dying/running into serious trouble every mile you go, like in Skyrim) since WC3 is naturally a 3rd person perspective, the CSS will keep you on your toes in every exploration (unless you are terribly overleveled).

Finally, the CSS is also balanced, in that the number of creeps which attack you is limited by the size of your current party AND how many other players there are in the same area. So if you are journeying by yourself with a single monster, you won't attract the notice of many wild monsters. But if you have a party of three monsters and a few friends with their own monsters, expect to come across many more encounters.

 

[hopop201]

Hey sethmachine1,

I was just wondering if the breeding will be more like Dragon Quest Monsters(DS) where there isn't many specific combinations but your monsters will always become a higher tier (you can look it up of you are confused) or Dragon Warrior Monsters (GB) where there are a lot of combos but most of them are not specific on two monsters needed. I am guessing that you will go more along the lines of the Dragon Warrior Monsters breeding and would prefer that.

 

[sethmachine]

Hey sethmachine1,

I was just wondering if the breeding will be more like Dragon Quest Monsters(DS) where there isn't many specific combinations but your monsters will always become a higher tier (you can look it up of you are confused) or Dragon Warrior Monsters (GB) where there are a lot of combos but most of them are not specific on two monsters needed. I am guessing that you will go more along the lines of the Dragon Warrior Monsters breeding and would prefer that.

It won't be exactly like any of those, actually. I plan on making the breed system a little "probabilistic" in the sense that just because X + Y --> Z the last time, doesn't mean X + Y --> Z next time (you could get W, U, T, etc.).

Imagine a genealogical tree or graph, and each monster connected by an edge/line to some other set of monsters. Monsters which take the fewest lines to reach from one monster are the genetically closest species, while those monsters furthest away are the most distant.

Breeding will then be some function of each of the parent's genetic distances from similar species. So there will be a higher chance for the offspring of two parents to be a monster species those two parents are closest too. But this isn't always the case since it's probabilistic.

Finally, the genealogical tree will be unique and different for each player. This is because as you (the monster master / breeder) learn more about the universe, you will build your own tree based on your unique experiences. There might not be a lot of variation (I am still working this idea out), but what else does it mean?

(1) Breeding is not completely deterministic

(2) Learning successful combinations must be done by yourself.

In other words, breeding charts won't exist or won't be effective, since you'll only be following the specific tree for that player and not yours. There are probably some combos which usually have the same result across all players, but I would not rely on it (especially if you are breeding prized/rare monsters).

Note that this does not mean it's possible to get any monster from any two--if the distance is too far genetically then it's never going to happen.

 

[Deathly_God]

Will there be a feature or something to fuse two monsters and get a specific one back (one of the ones you put in?) Similar to the method of main types in MM RPG? And also, would the rare types require generic'ish and very very high % recipes?

 

[hopop201]

It won't be exactly like any of those, actually. I plan on making the breed system a little "probabilistic" in the sense that just because X + Y --> Z the last time, doesn't mean X + Y --> Z next time (you could get W, U, T, etc.).

Imagine a genealogical tree or graph, and each monster connected by an edge/line to some other set of monsters. Monsters which take the fewest lines to reach from one monster are the genetically closest species, while those monsters furthest away are the most distant.

Breeding will then be some function of each of the parent's genetic distances from similar species. So there will be a higher chance for the offspring of two parents to be a monster species those two parents are closest too. But this isn't always the case since it's probabilistic.

Finally, the genealogical tree will be unique and different for each player. This is because as you (the monster master / breeder) learn more about the universe, you will build your own tree based on your unique experiences. There might not be a lot of variation (I am still working this idea out), but what else does it mean?

(1) Breeding is not completely deterministic

(2) Learning successful combinations must be done by yourself.

In other words, breeding charts won't exist or won't be effective, since you'll only be following the specific tree for that player and not yours. There are probably some combos which usually have the same result across all players, but I would not rely on it (especially if you are breeding prized/rare monsters).

Note that this does not mean it's possible to get any monster from any two--if the distance is too far genetically then it's never going to happen.

So basically A+B=C,D,G,or K or something like that. But will there be specific combos like deathly god said or ones where Specific Monster + Monster from Family X = Specific monster.

 

[sethmachine]

@Deathly_God and hopop

When I first was designing the monsters, I intended there to be generic combos, like:

Beast + Water = Seal (100% probability).

However I found that it actually constrained the breeding system, because I had to dedicate around 9 monsters per family to this specific breeding formula. So I threw it out half way in.

Nevertheless there will be some combinations are close to universal, e.g.

Beast + water = seal will probability have a high probability in general.

Also, there will be items or a mechanic to influence the offspring. These might be in the form of drops from dungeons or bosses (e.g. an item that when equipped on a monster being bred increases the chance of the offspring being a monster you have never had before). I think this adds another dimension to gameplay.

There may also be very powerful breeding items, like one that lets you keep one of the parents (obviously this would be a very rare item).

 

[hopop201]

@Deathly_God and hopop

When I first was designing the monsters, I intended there to be generic combos, like:

Beast + Water = Seal (100% probability).

However I found that it actually constrained the breeding system, because I had to dedicate around 9 monsters per family to this specific breeding formula. So I threw it out half way in.

Nevertheless there will be some combinations are close to universal, e.g.

Beast + water = seal will probability have a high probability in general.

Also, there will be items or a mechanic to influence the offspring. These might be in the form of drops from dungeons or bosses (e.g. an item that when equipped on a monster being bred increases the chance of the offspring being a monster you have never had before). I think this adds another dimension to gameplay.

There may also be very powerful breeding items, like one that lets you keep one of the parents (obviously this would be a very rare item).

I like the concept. There should be a certain item required to breed the strongest monsters. Also, the item that makes it so the offspring is one of the parents should not be one use only and should be a held item like in DQMJ.

Can't wait for the Beta testing to start.

 

[Goodguard4]

@Deathly_God and hopop

When I first was designing the monsters, I intended there to be generic combos, like:

Beast + Water = Seal (100% probability).

However I found that it actually constrained the breeding system, because I had to dedicate around 9 monsters per family to this specific breeding formula. So I threw it out half way in.

Nevertheless there will be some combinations are close to universal, e.g.

Beast + water = seal will probability have a high probability in general.

Also, there will be items or a mechanic to influence the offspring. These might be in the form of drops from dungeons or bosses (e.g. an item that when equipped on a monster being bred increases the chance of the offspring being a monster you have never had before). I think this adds another dimension to gameplay.

There may also be very powerful breeding items, like one that lets you keep one of the parents (obviously this would be a very rare item).

Hello sir, you said as latest the game will be released in the end of February but is already March, is everything ok or you didnt complete it yet? Thanks, and take your time it will be a great project for sure

 

[Deathly_God]

Hello sir, you said as latest the game will be released in the end of February but is already March, is everything ok or you didnt complete it yet? Thanks, and take your time it will be a great project for sure

Later on in the thread he said that due to college, he had to postpone work until summer. Hope this helps!

 

[shotas]

no updates receantly ,hmm anything new ?

 

[hopop201]

no updates receantly ,hmm anything new ?

As he said earlier, he is postponing the project until summer.

 

[sethmachine]

no updates receantly ,hmm anything new ?

@shotas and hopop201

Trust me, I think very often of working back on the project and finishing it so we all can play it! The semester is almost over which means I'll be getting back to it soon!

As you see, I check the forums daily, so we can still have discussions or I can answer questions.

 

[Deathly_God]

Hey Seth, I've been meaning to ask this for a while! (Quick reply is being a dick and deleting my messages.) How will the inventory system work in MM RPG 2? I know in DQ M you can only really equip a weapon, but in later ones you can equip armor and special other things at times too. Will you be keeping it to a two inventory system, or binding it so that only 1 weapon and 1 armor? Or more slots and keeping the original MM's style of any-two-items? Also, will there still be the stats incentive added on to Fusion Levels, or what is your plan for those? Still eagerly awaiting the alpha or beta versions!!

 

[sethmachine]

Hey Seth, I've been meaning to ask this for a while! (Quick reply is being a dick and deleting my messages.) How will the inventory system work in MM RPG 2? I know in DQ M you can only really equip a weapon, but in later ones you can equip armor and special other things at times too. Will you be keeping it to a two inventory system, or binding it so that only 1 weapon and 1 armor? Or more slots and keeping the original MM's style of any-two-items? Also, will there still be the stats incentive added on to Fusion Levels, or what is your plan for those? Still eagerly awaiting the alpha or beta versions!!

A very good set of questions! The exact make up of the item system is quite malleable, since of all the things I've worked on, the item system is something I've barely touched (there is code, just very little). This is because I plan to have a complex item system for both monsters and their monster masters.

I am thinking of sticking with the 2 inventory slots of monsters but make no requirements (e.g. a monster can wield two shield items or two right hand items, etc.). The item system will be subject to extensive testing and re-design, and will perhaps be changed constantly, even when the betas are released. This is because even with alpha testing, there is no way to predict how to balance and design the full item system.

That being said, I have an outline for the kinds of items.

1) Battle items: These are your vanilla items from MMRPG I that you equip to a monster to improve its health, mana, armor, damage, etc.

2) Growth items: This is a little controversial, but essentially these are rings that promote stat growth for the monster carrying them. E.g. "War Ring" promotes HP growth--everytime the monster levels up and is equipped with the "War Ring," it receives a small bonus to its overall HP gain that is permanent. Suppose monster X usually gains 5-7 health per level, but with War Ring it will be guaranteed an extra 1-2 hp, so if it has the ring equipped when it levels, it will gain 6-9 hp instead. I will likely limit it so a monster cannot equip more than a single ring. Rings will likely be incredibly rare items because of how powerful they are.

3) Breeding items: These items have effects when equipped to monsters that are being bred. E.g. "Divorce Papers" allows you to keep one of the mates when usually both go away forever. Obviously it would be very rare. Other items might be stat inheriters (higher chance the offspring inherits a good I.V. from either parent) or move inheriters (higher chance the offspring inherits a higher tiered move, e.g. aura vs single point damage). Others might even double the offspring (two eggs instead of one).

For monster masters, they will also have items as well. Monster masters will likely have an inventory size of 4-6 (class might determine that) but also a virtual backpack capable of carrying up to 20 items.

3) Consumables: Meat will be back for recruiting monsters, and things like potions, town portals, etc.

2) Class items: Items specific to the monster master class (there will be classes players can branch into). E.g. a staff. They can be used to help in battle, recruit monsters, heal the team, and many other possibilities. Or even allow your monster master to fight in combat!

3) "HM" items / Artifacts: These items are quest items that allow players to progress into new areas. I call them "HM" items because they are functionally equivalent to Pokemon's HM moves (e.g. surf). So you might see an area you cannot reach in world 1, but in world 3 you get the item you need to use to melt the ice wall to access that bonus area. These items are permanent in the sense you can't get rid of them, but luckily you can put them in the virtual inventory or bank.

So for Fusion Levels (FLs), I will follow the original purpose. All monster species have their natural growth limit, e.g. Kobolds cannot level beyond lvl 30. But for each FL a monster has, it can level that much higher. So while a Kobold FL +0 caps out at lvl 30, a Kobold FL +20 can level as high as 50.

FLs will also be required to make some powerful breeds. But I do not see it having an impact on a monster's stats/growth other than determining their max level.

 

[shotas]

hmm nice. Its good to see ,that this map is paused but still alive. ) good luck with semester ending

 

[hopop201]

A very good set of questions! The exact make up of the item system is quite malleable, since of all the things I've worked on, the item system is something I've barely touched (there is code, just very little). This is because I plan to have a complex item system for both monsters and their monster masters.

I am thinking of sticking with the 2 inventory slots of monsters but make no requirements (e.g. a monster can wield two shield items or two right hand items, etc.). The item system will be subject to extensive testing and re-design, and will perhaps be changed constantly, even when the betas are released. This is because even with alpha testing, there is no way to predict how to balance and design the full item system.

That being said, I have an outline for the kinds of items.

1) Battle items: These are your vanilla items from MMRPG I that you equip to a monster to improve its health, mana, armor, damage, etc.

2) Growth items: This is a little controversial, but essentially these are rings that promote stat growth for the monster carrying them. E.g. "War Ring" promotes HP growth--everytime the monster levels up and is equipped with the "War Ring," it receives a small bonus to its overall HP gain that is permanent. Suppose monster X usually gains 5-7 health per level, but with War Ring it will be guaranteed an extra 1-2 hp, so if it has the ring equipped when it levels, it will gain 6-9 hp instead. I will likely limit it so a monster cannot equip more than a single ring. Rings will likely be incredibly rare items because of how powerful they are.

3) Breeding items: These items have effects when equipped to monsters that are being bred. E.g. "Divorce Papers" allows you to keep one of the mates when usually both go away forever. Obviously it would be very rare. Other items might be stat inheriters (higher chance the offspring inherits a good I.V. from either parent) or move inheriters (higher chance the offspring inherits a higher tiered move, e.g. aura vs single point damage). Others might even double the offspring (two eggs instead of one).

For monster masters, they will also have items as well. Monster masters will likely have an inventory size of 4-6 (class might determine that) but also a virtual backpack capable of carrying up to 20 items.

3) Consumables: Meat will be back for recruiting monsters, and things like potions, town portals, etc.

2) Class items: Items specific to the monster master class (there will be classes players can branch into). E.g. a staff. They can be used to help in battle, recruit monsters, heal the team, and many other possibilities. Or even allow your monster master to fight in combat!

3) "HM" items / Artifacts: These items are quest items that allow players to progress into new areas. I call them "HM" items because they are functionally equivalent to Pokemon's HM moves (e.g. surf). So you might see an area you cannot reach in world 1, but in world 3 you get the item you need to use to melt the ice wall to access that bonus area. These items are permanent in the sense you can't get rid of them, but luckily you can put them in the virtual inventory or bank.

So for Fusion Levels (FLs), I will follow the original purpose. All monster species have their natural growth limit, e.g. Kobolds cannot level beyond lvl 30. But for each FL a monster has, it can level that much higher. So while a Kobold FL +0 caps out at lvl 30, a Kobold FL +20 can level as high as 50.

FLs will also be required to make some powerful breeds. But I do not see it having an impact on a monster's stats/growth other than determining their max level.

(I guess the discussion is switching to items now)

That all seems really good. For the battle items I think there should still be level (Monster Master) and fusion level requirements. I completely agree with the idea of breeding items. I think that they should not be one use only (as I am guessing will already be true). It seems like they are rewards for people that spend a lot of time playing, enabling them to basically breed the monster they want. The item that gives two offspring should only work when you combine two of your own monsters so that you can keep the fl from both of them unlike in MMRPG I when getting T4 and ??? monsters. I agree with having class items and HMs/artifacts.

Nothing else to add so let the next person add their input.

 

[Deathly_God]

I like the ideas for some of these items, but the power stat items seem a little odd to me, in that they are quite clearly the best items in the game. I suppose it's balanced by the fact that it takes up an item slot when you're leveling your monsters though. Going back to what you were talking about with Fusion Levels though, I (personally) feel that having the FL determine the max level in such a 1 to 1 way seems pretty strange and even more grindy than MM RPG 1. In DQ Monster Joker 2, 5 FL's grants up to level 75 (previously 50) and 10 FL's granted up to 100. In MM RPG 1, fusion levels were only needed for the tier 4 and 5's, and getting sub-max didn't influence your game a whole lot (it helped but missing 10 FL's wasn't a make-or-break kind of thing). With this however, you'd be missing tons of levels unless you grind up your fusion levels. Either this will be even more time-consuming than breeding (not to mention all the spells that will be coming and going due to this system, along with initial stats and other things you'd have to track) but it would also take forever to catch and stabilize your monster party under these conditions (or so it seems.) I'm wondering if you want to maybe take Joker's approach, where the FL's needed for the monsters are relatively low, but then you could continue to gain FL's for the stats like MM RPG1, which was personally a big and immediate incentive to get the FL's, rather than just a vague max-level that I'd only achieve anyways once I finished fusion leveling. I guess my rambling is just trying to point out the immediate incentive to try to fusion level, and how with a rising max-level ,the level tier system for monster fusions would be frustrating for people to try to work out (in MM RPG 1 it was, for those who don't know, the total level taken in a piece-wise function, where 0-9 was one tier, so 10-19 was +0, 20-29 was +1, 30-39 was +2, etc.) With the rising levels, if you were to say, get to level 70 because of your fusion levels, the wild monsters you would encounter would be wayyy lower and would probably be a waste of your time to fuse with at this point because two 70's would help you a lot more than say, a 30 and your 70 (assuming monsters level cap is set along the same lines as tamed monsters levels).

 

[hopop201]

I like the ideas for some of these items, but the power stat items seem a little odd to me, in that they are quite clearly the best items in the game. I suppose it's balanced by the fact that it takes up an item slot when you're leveling your monsters though. Going back to what you were talking about with Fusion Levels though, I (personally) feel that having the FL determine the max level in such a 1 to 1 way seems pretty strange and even more grindy than MM RPG 1. In DQ Monster Joker 2, 5 FL's grants up to level 75 (previously 50) and 10 FL's granted up to 100. In MM RPG 1, fusion levels were only needed for the tier 4 and 5's, and getting sub-max didn't influence your game a whole lot (it helped but missing 10 FL's wasn't a make-or-break kind of thing). With this however, you'd be missing tons of levels unless you grind up your fusion levels. Either this will be even more time-consuming than breeding (not to mention all the spells that will be coming and going due to this system, along with initial stats and other things you'd have to track) but it would also take forever to catch and stabilize your monster party under these conditions (or so it seems.) I'm wondering if you want to maybe take Joker's approach, where the FL's needed for the monsters are relatively low, but then you could continue to gain FL's for the stats like MM RPG1, which was personally a big and immediate incentive to get the FL's, rather than just a vague max-level that I'd only achieve anyways once I finished fusion leveling. I guess my rambling is just trying to point out the immediate incentive to try to fusion level, and how with a rising max-level ,the level tier system for monster fusions would be frustrating for people to try to work out (in MM RPG 1 it was, for those who don't know, the total level taken in a piece-wise function, where 0-9 was one tier, so 10-19 was +0, 20-29 was +1, 30-39 was +2, etc.) With the rising levels, if you were to say, get to level 70 because of your fusion levels, the wild monsters you would encounter would be wayyy lower and would probably be a waste of your time to fuse with at this point because two 70's would help you a lot more than say, a 30 and your 70 (assuming monsters level cap is set along the same lines as tamed monsters levels).

Oh yea, you really should not have fl to lvl increase be 1 to 1. make so that at 15 fl can go up to lvl 40 and at fl 30 can go to lvl 50 or something like that.

@Deathly_God
You can easily circumvent the growth items taking up an item slot but still get the stat bonus. Keep the item(s) in your vault and equip them on your monster right before they level up. Switch the items back after they level up.

 

[Deathly_God]

@Deathly_God
You can easily circumvent the growth items taking up an item slot but still get the stat bonus. Keep the item(s) in your vault and equip them on your monster right before they level up. Switch the items back after they level up.

Well maybe for later levels yeah, but I for one would probably be annoyed if I had to run back to town or w/e to pick up the item to swap before it leveled. I mean if it missed a few levels that would drive me nuts! Ha ha

 

[hopop201]

Well maybe for later levels yeah, but I for one would probably be annoyed if I had to run back to town or w/e to pick up the item to swap before it leveled. I mean if it missed a few levels that would drive me nuts! Ha ha

You can store it in your monster master's virtual backpack. You don't have to run back to town every level.

 

[smasher5541]

So do you have a approximate date of when you are going to release the map to the public?

 

[sethmachine]

Thank you all for the continued discussion of the map, and your suggestions/criticisms/comments on the situation of the item system.

I will agree 100% the stat growth items are perhaps the most powerful and useful, and using the method described above, you could make sure to re-equip the item each time right before level up to get the most stats out of it.

I should mention, however, that the casual player would probably not ever come across such items, and if they are lucky enough to, they would still probably not micromanage them for each level. I know (from the way you guys have discussed this ^^) that's not the case for everyone.

For monster hero levels themselves, each level will require exponentially more experience than the last. So it would probably take just as long to get to level 30 as it would in robbepop's MMRPG. You can imagine getting to level 100 would probably take a lifetime!

This may seem discouraging (or even stupid ) but to beat the game it probably won't be necessary to have monsters much higher than level 30 (with decent items and some breeding too).

Also, because the max level is now 100, there will be worlds with very high level creeps, so this does mean lots of more experience (at higher risk) to offset the amount of grinding the higher levels would require.

That being said, most monsters will grow to at least level 30 - 50 without any fusion levels, so adding more "longevity" is really something that a master breeder / player would take the time to do.

@smasher5541

Given the nature of the project and its many aspects, I expect a closed beta to be released sometime in the middle of the summer (late June or early July).

After the closed beta, I will release an open beta (late July / August).

Finally, once those have been evaluated, I will proceed to release a first version. I will note that there will likely be no save system until the first version or open beta.

So here is my optimistic timeline:

Late May: Resume work on map

Late June / Early July: Closed Beta - No save system

Late July / Early August: Open Beta - possibly save system

Late August / Early September: First version - most likely save system

This is optimistic, assuming it will take me about a month and a half to finish the closed beta once I am done with college.

 

[Deathly_God]

I was thinking, which was applicable to the previous posts, will there be an item to increase wild monster encounters? And perhaps a super rare version of the item, which increases the rare wild monster encounters, or the quality (IV's) of the monsters you encounter? I feel like that would be a fun addition for end-game to speed up your catching processes, if you manage to obtain them (maybe a rare drop from a dungeon creature). Also, while the fusion level raising the monster level cap is a cool idea, it would seem to most players to be a useless thing, even if it was explained to them, seeing as the XP amounts would be crazy. Will you also be issuing a tier-based XP reduction gain? I don't know how you plan to go about balancing out the monsters, but it seems that the Fusion Levels are somewhat lacking in what they give back, considering the time you will need to catch appropriate monsters, and manage the skills learned through the fusion. I guess I'm just wondering what the real benefit of Fusion Levels would be (assuming most players would not get to level 100).

 

[kael]

Well done！I think that a monster can have more passive skills.In MM1,3 monsters is hard to control,and I like some creative skills，for example，the skills of panda is Kung fu.

At last version ,there is many powerful items but it cannt used over two ,on my opinion,common monster can use two items ,rare monster three,super monster four,legendary monster five,epic monster six.

 

[Deathly_God]

I think that the two item limit on the monsters created a more fun and intense environment, since you had your trade-offs to think about, and so you had to build towards your play style with the limitations.

 

[hopop201]

Yea, we really should keep the two item limit for monsters

 

[smasher5541]

Not sure if this question has been asked yet.

Is there going to be a code wipe?
So are the promo codes for the version that is coming out?

 

[Deathly_God]

Not sure if this question has been asked yet.

Is there going to be a code wipe?
So are the promo codes for the version that is coming out?

It's going to use a code-written on your harddrive system, so you don't actually need a code for it. The promo code is for MM RPG 1 apparently. This may change though if he changes his mind

 

[smasher5541]

So the code will auto save or will you have to type -save?

 

[smasher5541]

If it is auto save, what would you do if you made a mistake and want to go back to the previous code? Also what would you do if your playing on a different computer from the one you usually play on?

 

[Deathly_God]

I believe it will be a -save feature, as for swapping computers, I don't know.

 

[smasher5541]

Hey are we allowed to give suggestions for monsters and other stuff?

If it isn't a problem can you give us a outline on what is being changed.

 

[hopop201]

I believe it will be a -save feature, as for swapping computers, I don't know.

Yea, there really is no reason for him to not use the -save system from the original

 

[sethmachine]

Hi everyone!

To address the save system and codes:

1. Codes from MMRPG I will not be compatible with MMRPG II. Imagine playing Pokemon Red and then when Pokemon Silver came out, you could start it with your team from Red. It would be very boring, because you'd likely have level 100 Pokemon from the get go. One of the parts of an RPG is character development/growth. You'll struggle in one area but come back later and easily triumph over those enemies. So all codes from MMRPG I will not work.

2. The save system will hopefully be, as mentioned by deathly_god, done codelessly. This means there will be a text file in your C:\ drive that will be read in when loading and written to when saving. I can't say any of the details yet, because I haven't implemented it or tested it. In any case, there will be measures to prevent abusing the save system, e.g. breeding your lvl 30s with a friend but then leaving the game and re-using that code.

3. Promo codes will be for MMRPG I only. This will be released a week or two before the beta. They will let you start with a random ??? monster at level 1.


4. You can send suggestions for possible monsters. What I will need is a good custom model file along with an icon, preferably under 100 KB.

In regards to the discussion on FLs and items, I'll get my thoughts down as soon as I can, though I think keeping monster inventory at 2 items is a good plan.

 

[smasher5541]

Thank you for replying quickly deathly and sethmaster.

I suggest changing Hagon's auto cast to an auto heal.

 

[Deathly_God]

Personally, I'd find it a little refreshing for a new(ish?) set of monsters to play. Maybe a little closer to the keepings of Dragon Quest Monster? Slime classes were always so fun, but that's just me. I would just like to throw out that it would be nice if there was at least one unconventional tank, sort of like how Ogre Magi was in #1, with it's mana shield, mana aura and mana siphon. Just some sorts of original play styling.
Also, in regards to some spells, I found a really interesting heal from an RPG, where it heals the % of life your monster is at, back onto itself. So if your monster is at 10%, the heal gives you 10% of it's life back, but if you're at 90%, it gives 10% (plus an 80% overheal). Just kinda a cool mechanic I found and thought I'd share.

 

[smasher5541]

Personally, I'd find it a little refreshing for a new(ish?) set of monsters to play.

I also would like to play different monsters but I think some of the previous monsters should stay unless there is a part of the lore that causes the monsters to disappear.

 

[Deathly_God]

I also would like to play different monsters but I think some of the previous monsters should stay unless there is a part of the lore that causes the monsters to disappear.

To be honest, and I feel like a lot of players, especially ones who never really got into MM RPG1, don't particularly care about the lore reasoning. You could essentially make the story a stand-alone concept and I think most people would be absolutely fine with it. I'm not saying trash all the monsters, but if you simply swap a few models and slap some slightly different spells onto the monsters the game would be essentially a code-wipe of #1, with minor tweaks, rather than it's own off-shoot game. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Also, is it planned to keep the armor system how it is, or something closer to Gaia's RPG where armor is just = -dmg, so 12 armor is the same as -12 dmg per hit.

 

[smasher5541]

To be honest, and I feel like a lot of players, especially ones who never really got into MM RPG1, don't particularly care about the lore reasoning. You could essentially make the story a stand-alone concept and I think most people would be absolutely fine with it. I'm not saying trash all the monsters, but if you simply swap a few models and slap some slightly different spells onto the monsters the game would be essentially a code-wipe of #1, with minor tweaks, rather than it's own off-shoot game. Just my thoughts on the subject.

Also, is it planned to keep the armor system how it is, or something closer to Gaia's RPG where armor is just = -dmg, so 12 armor is the same as -12 dmg per hit.

Now that i think about it, there isn't really a lore in MM 1. It is just fusing monsters and making a good team. I like the damage and armor system as it is.

 

[hopop201]

Yea, the map really isn't/shouldn't stray to far from the original map. I think we could sorta call this a reboot of the map.

 

[Tal'Rarity]

You shouldn't bother too much with a codeless save/load, Wc3 barely supports it.

Not to mention all u have to do is make a copy of the file then you can do exactly what you can do with string-based save/load's. Only difference is lack of knowledge for the first little while. You also have to tell everyone to enable local files which already gives them the location. The only way to do this is on a server-based game or map with the help of TriggerHappy's project without cheating that is. Because you can load data from the server instead of requiring players computers.

The worst part is the sync rate.

Otherwise sounds like a fun map, good luck.

 

[hopop201]

You shouldn't bother too much with a codeless save/load, Wc3 barely supports it.

Not to mention all u have to do is make a copy of the file then you can do exactly what you can do with string-based save/load's. Only difference is lack of knowledge for the first little while. You also have to tell everyone to enable local files which already gives them the location. The only way to do this is on a server-based game or map with the help of TriggerHappy's project without cheating that is. Because you can load data from the server instead of requiring players computers.

The worst part is the sync rate.

Otherwise sounds like a fun map, good luck.

Yea, if someone is going to get into the map they will make sure that they save their team and get the code for the next time they play.

 

[sethmachine]

Thank you Dat-C3 for informing me about some of the vulnerabilities of the codeless saveload system. In any case I need it because the amount of bits being saved is too much for the typical string based save/load system. I suppose I could try to compress this information (though I have no background in compression/information theory) but I think it would *explode* the number of codes, though that's just an enumeration problem. I'll probably post questions on this once I actually implement the save/load portion and see its performance. In any case I had long decided to remove the ability for players to breed monsters with each other, share items, share gold, or anything to gain an unfair advantage because there doesn't seem to be a work around without a server based approach or me managing each player's load individually.

In regards to lore/story/monsters from MMRPG I:

Lore / Story: There is a mythology, a main plot line, and various lesser plot lines, some of which might not tie in with the main plot line. Completing quests is essential for character growth, and the total quest points (each quest gives some integer points when completed) also are used to determine other factors, e.g. access to a particular world.

Monsters: I've already made about ~140 monsters, many with a unique model. The monster system will be more or less the same in terms of armor value, but I've added a damage/armor type to each monster as well to diversify things. Most of the monsters from MMRPG I will not be in MMRPG II, that much I can say.

It is much more than a simple reboot of the map. If that were the case I would have stuck using MMRPG I and not made a map from scratch. The way I think of it (and how robbepop has explained before) is that MMRPG I was really always a beta and incomplete (all it was was grinding and teambuilding), MMRPG II will be its own game/map that is an actual RPG.

 

[Deathly_God]

In any case I had long decided to remove the ability for players to breed monsters with each other, share items, share gold, or anything to gain an unfair advantage because there doesn't seem to be a work around without a server based approach or me managing each player's load individually.

Will killing monsters that multiple players were around/participated in still drop unbound items? And do you plan to make bounty gold a multi-person reward system, based on how many players are around at the time? Without these two things, playing with other people effectively has no incentives, if you can't even breed monsters with them.