Math, Science <-- Screw Em

[FlameSoul]

I don't see the point of having to take these classes. I waste lotta my time learning about circles and triangles and frogs and whatnot. Really, are these all necessary information required to survive in the modern world? Heck no! So why have em as a mandatory class? Share your deep thoughts about this.

God Bless.

You say this are not necessary. I'll give you some few examples, if you didn't know how to add, how would you be able to handle money. If a lot of people in the world before you hadn't had science and math, you wouldn't be using a PC. If you didn't know about triangles, circles, cilinders, measures, etc. how would you know what a liter, kilogram or other thing is, you will still be exchanging cows and chickens like in some part around the first millenium. I can think of maybe a thousand other examples, but it is pointless to put that amount.

If you don't like math, algebra, social science (yeah, science not only involves technology), natural science, art, music, physics or whatever I'm not mentioning it does not give you the right to tell it's completely useless.

If some subjects are tought at school year after year, it's because a lot of people with good knowledge about what they are talking determined they are necesary. This topics tought can change with years, but still, there are lots of thing you are tought that apply directly or indirectly in todays world, tough someone in particular may never need to use some particular thing.

Just stop complaining, learn what you are tought, then judge what turns out to be useful for you once you have learned and continue learning things you think are useful and you have not been tought.

One day you could find that thing you though was useless con help you out of a big trouble.

Note: there are some enters that maybe I should have not used them because I'm still somehow on the same idea, but really long sentences here seem to turn out sort of boring and unreadable.

Oh, I came to another creative example, in the times of pirates, they died because of a simple infection. Nowadays, I can't imagine anybody dying from that. That's because someone tought people rules that prevented that.

 

[Vulcano]

All the best payed jobs, doctor, scientist, engineer and IT all need math, and they also need scientific classes. All other technical jobs also need some of this knowledge. And some basic (yes you only learn basic stuff in secondary school (maybe except math)) scientific knowledge could never do wrong to the average IQ of people IMO.

Religion, visual arts education, aesthetics and music are the most useless imo.

 

[Elenai]

Religion, visual arts education, aesthetics and music are the most useless imo.

So abandoning your humanity to be a robotic minded machine of flesh is better?

...no

 

[Vulcano]

So abandoning your humanity to be a robotic minded machine of flesh is better?

...no

I never believed in god anyway, i'm still not creative(when it comes to painting), i still don't like watching art and i started listening to music a year after i had the last leason of music. So no i didn't learned anything important from these classes. And history is a much better class for not becoming a robotic minded machine of flesh imo.

 

[Elenai]

What ever floats your boat, but quite frankly sundering yourself from the artistic tenancies of art and music just makes you insensitive to what it is to be an enlightened and civilised human being.

Even the Vogons have poetry...Even Vulcans have art.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogon

...but if you insist on wanting to be a Borg...enjoy the world of having no individuality, freedom, or free will...

 

[TwistedImage]

All the best payed jobs, doctor, scientist, engineer and IT all need math, and they also need scientific classes. All other technical jobs also need some of this knowledge. And some basic (yes you only learn basic stuff in secondary school (maybe except math)) scientific knowledge could never do wrong to the average IQ of people IMO.

Religion, visual arts education, aesthetics and music are the most useless imo.

Writers. Since you misspelled "paid" you didn't know/care anyway, I suppose.

Math should remain mandatory. Science is awesome and useful.

 

[noob134]

Vulcano, so you like a world without aesthetics music or art? Without these say goodbye to video games and basically all other entertainment. Have fun doing work 24/7

 

[Kwah]

So abandoning your humanity to be a robotic minded machine of flesh is better?

...no

Sorry, can be human without making art/music/religion. It's nice, but certainly not required.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

In my opinion the really useless classes are art and music

This is a lot like what happened in China a while back, they got so focused on having the smartest children in the world that they teaching methods pretty much turned into blatant memorization. Yeah their test scores look really good on paper but now the country is having trouble because the students now grown up are having trouble working jobs that don't simply tell them exactly what to do (things like Engineering and some other jobs that require more abstract thinking). Because of this the Country is now trying to overall change their education system so that it allows for more creative thinking and forcing the students to come up with answers on their own without memorization.


Though Art, Music and literature aren't everyone's passion, they are good forms of self-expression. Though you yourself may not be making music, don't you think you would still miss it if it suddenly just stopped?

 

[PurplePoot]

Erm, El, I'm not a very artsy person (nor are many people I know), but neither am I a robot.

Stop being an idiot, please. You emphasize peoples' opinions, then start going around as if it's a well established fact that people who aren't like you are robot zombies.

 

[Elenai]

Sorry, can be human without making art/music/religion. It's nice, but certainly not required.

...no....not really...[notice also, I said music, and art, I purposefully left out religion , why do you bring it back into the list? ]

If you don't have creativity, or the creative things that Music, and Artistic expression represent...then you are working purely on one side of your brain: IE: information gathering, and data condensation...then you are half a homo-sapien, working at half capacity...and you essentially become nothing more than an organic calculator, instead of a "human".

Erm, El, I'm not a very artsy person (nor are many people I know), but neither am I a robot.

You are not working on the premise that art/music/expressions thus, are useless either.

You emphasize peoples' opinions, then start going around as if it's a well established fact that people who aren't like you are robot zombies.

People who do forsake their creative tenancies...are indeed nothing more than organic robots. It is indeed fact.

 

[Kwah]

If you don't have creativity, or the creative things that Music, and Artistic expression represent...then you are working purely on one side of your brain: IE: information gathering, and data condensation...then you are half a homo-sapien, working at half capacity...and you essentially become nothing more than an organic calculator, instead of a "human".

I used the original list, is why I had religion.

As to the second half, art and music are not necessary for creative activity. Invention, design, discovery are all things which I personally find far more compelling & interesting.

Furthermore, humans are 'organic calculators'. I don't believe we have some magical 'soul' giving us wonderful feelings. Humans are made out of meat.

 

[Elenai]

Invention, design, discovery

All of which involve artistic expression to some form or degree.

 

[HINDYhat]

Hey, if you're crazy enough, mathematics can be some form of artistic expression too.

Fact is that the stuff that you won't use directly that you're learning in high school still develops your mind and logic, and that's the major goal of mathematics. All other courses have their merit, however some have more merit than others. I'd definitely place art at the bottom of the list, for the simple reason that art can be expressed everywhere else: you don't need a drawing class to develop creativity.

 

[Elenai]

All other courses have their merit,

Indeed, this is my point.

I'd definitely place art at the bottom of the list, for the simple reason that art can be expressed everywhere else: you don't need a drawing class to develop creativity.

But you do need a foundation. You can learn how to count from anyone, why do you need math classes? (not saying that math isn't important, but to illustrate the point really..)

Art classes are important, because they develop the side of the brain that allows for application of knowledge, the right side, when the academic classes fill the left side with the knowledge that is appliable by the right. They need each other.

If you take a math class, you need to take an art class if you want to reach your fullest potential in each.

They are compliments of each other.

You can have bread...or you can have pudding...

But if you put them together, you have an oddly delicious sort of cake, and you also have them both at the same time.

 

[Snarewave]

You can have bread...or you can have pudding...

But if you put them together, you have an oddly delicious sort of cake, and you also have them both at the same time.

Wise words brother. Everyone loves cake.

 

[Vosty]

TWO CENTS!
Seriously, I love these classes. ANd I always get a 100 in both, adn I'm one grade ahead
You need them for jobs, so grow up

 

[PurplePoot]

Erm, most accounts I've read have claimed the "two halves of the brain" metaphor is only a metaphor and is no way grounded in physical reality. Feel free to disprove me.

 

[HINDYhat]

All other courses have their merit, however some have more merit than others.

And this is my point.

You can learn how to count from anyone, why do you need math classes?

Because [most] high school math is still considerably more complex than counting numbers?

Erm, most accounts I've read have claimed the "two halves of the brain" metaphor is only a metaphor and is no way grounded in physical reality.

Indeed.

Maths and arts are not complementary. I've had concurrent arts and maths classes often, and when arts were cut off, I didn't do any better or worse in maths.

 

[Hakeem]

No offense, but there are some things people just NEED to know. High school math and science included. It's so you don't sound retarded and don't start screaming about how the earth is flat and cats have can survive death 9 times.

If someone doesn't want to learn math and science, they aren't going to do things like that. If someone is willingly ignorant to a subject, they usually avoid participation.

So you are saying you do not want to be making good money out in the real world?

And?

You are saying that all math and science classes are complete shit?

No. He didn't say that. I love how everyone thinks he did. He mentions math and science as things that should be elective, and people jump on him as if he's attacked all of learning.

You say there is no need for them?

He didn't say this either. He implied he has no need for them. He realizes they are useful, he just doesn't want to use them.

Snarewave: Thank you for calling mircosoft support line, how can I help you?
Person: My Windows 9 calculator isn't working, it says 2+2=5.
Snarewave: Is that not correct?

I'm 97% certain the OP knows addition. I pretty sure he know multiplication and division. I pretty sure he doesn't like trigonometry. I could be wrong, but I'm confident enough to guess. Either way, my logic will stand firm.

Yes, because why would we ever need to know why our culture and other cultures are the way they are today.

We never learn why. Ever. There are billions of variables, and any effort to isolate any particular aspect is exceedingly difficult.

And why would we ever need to know that France isn't next to Russia? [/sarcasm]

Sarcasm, but who honestly cares? Russians. The French. The surrounds countries which I admit I do not know. I don't care. I failed my "Name every state and its capital" quiz. If and when I want to know these things, I look them up. I don't want to learn them otherwise. Nevertheless, geography information gets into my brain. The information is there and I pull it in, without trying. Can't be helped really.

In all seriousness, the aim of Geography and History is to prevent you from being ignorant, self centered, and unaware of the world that is around you.

Then that goal is catastrophically not met.

Algebra, geometry, and precalculus are necessary for common life.

Citation needed. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, the basics, yeah, that stuff in necessary. But show me:

You will use the exponential function in your life. You will use the sine and cosine waves in your life.

The OP may not be able to make this argument to you, but while I personally disagree with his dislike of math and science, I respect his opinion to not want to know them. I love math and science and knowledge in general, and I respect his right to do what he likes. So, make the argument. As knowledgeable as I am I do not see that they are a necessity for every profession. I know there are many professions that do use them, but there are many that do not.

You need chemistry because no matter what you do in life, you will mix two chemicals together at some point.

Doesn't require knowledge of chemistry. You don't need to know about electrons. Hell, if you're worried about mixing substances, 90% of the time it will warn you on the bottle, and 100% of the time you can look it up on Wikipedia.

You need to know how to handle yourself when you do and be able to figure out what's going on so you know if you might create something hazardous or not.

911 comes to mind.

You need biology as well, particularly when they start talking about the flu on the news or something. You need to not be completely unaware of what they mean when they say that the virus has evolved or has achieved homeostasis within a given system.

No you don't. They'll spell it out for you.

Those are the mandatory classes for high school, and there is a good reason for their being mandatory. The entire goal of mandatory education is to educate students and try to generally improve the average intellect of the human population.

Because it is said it must be true!

In reality you're fighting fire with gasoline.

Forcing them into situations where they can garner such knowledge is the only way to do it.

Oh damn. Was it you who I was debating this with before? Well I still think stimulating curiosity is the only way to go.

Now, tell me, how do you plan on living without any sense of logic, without the ability to count, to add.. only talk.

I addresses this above. I believe this is called a straw man argument.

I for one think that the average person is an indication that we need more, not less math, science, history, geography, world religion, etc classes (mandatory classes, that is).

If we were trying to fill our cars, gasoline would be useful.

I don't get it, really. This forum is composed of many people who are still going to school themselves, yet they cannot seem to sympathize with this concept. People who have grown up and forgotten what it was like, I can understand them not knowing what they are talking about, but people who are still in school? I guess I had the blame pegged wrong as being time decay.

Oh, and you have no idea how much your understanding (however limited) of math and science has changed your outlook on the world.

Being fair, neither do you.

History is a mandatory class over here in Germany. For a DAMN good reason, if you ask me.

Could you convey that or do you have to hear the propaganda first hand to buy into it? Say, can you still not wear swastikas?

Everyone should know about mankinds past in order to avoid repeating mistakes (or at least delay repeating those mistakes).

Those who know history are doomed to repeat it.

You could (and should once youre able to) replace [religion] with philosophy anyway.

Religion is not an alternative to philosophy. It is very closely related, but not serving the same purpose.

I think its helpful to have a decent knowledge about your surroundings.

Most people have that. They just don't know the price of fish in China.

On a related note: Im being a hypcrite here, since i simply refused to learn what i thought to be unnecessary.

Refused to learn or do the work? I refused to do the work. I couldn't help but learn.

Pretty much anything can be fun if you have the right teacher.

(Take that Duragon. )

I see the importance in Math and Science. Most of the applications in the world revolves around them. I still really think that should be left to professionals.

Hohoho, damn! Are you ever right. Of course you could become a professional if you learned, but a professional without a passion has negative effects.

I respect the right of someone to remain ignorant to a subject, if, for not other reason, then to keep them out of my hair.

Stuck in some Job that may pay good but kills you mentally and longing for some way to make a mark on the world.

School does not stop this from happening. Nor does it aim to.

History is a very important class to ensure that past mistakes aren't repeated, WWI and WWII for example.

Did knowledge of WWI stop WWII?

Just try to ignore him.

OP.

Science teaches you rather basic things like...gravity hurts when you fall off a cliff.

Science doesn't teach that. Reality does.

And it teaches you WHY your cells need 8 glasses of water a day, and why drinking nothing but straight sugar water rots your teeth and gives you diabetes.

You don't need to know why. You just need to not do it. By coincidence, (or maybe not) I had thought of this argument while studying the eye. "Do you need to know how the eye works in order to see?"

In my opinion the really useless classes are art and music

Hence them being often elective.

Erm, El, I'm not a very artsy person (nor are many people I know), but neither am I a robot.

No, of course you are not a robot. You attend a WC3 modding context regularly. WC3 being a game. You just spend more time on the technical side of things. I'd consider it related to art in some sense.

Furthermore, humans are 'organic calculators'.

Not purely:

I don't believe we have some magical 'soul' giving us wonderful feelings.

No, but we have feelings anyway don't we?

---

Shame on you guys. Debating someone who you know can't accurately fight back. Well now I'm playing on the side of ignorance. If you want to make it mandatory, you are doing the stupidest thing imaginable: Using authority for a non-authoritative purpose. Power isn't there for you to use for every purpose. It isn't there so a subset of people can enforce their citation needed ideas on the majority. If everything happened to everybody what anyone wanted to happen to everybody, everybody would be dead, among many other terrible things. For this reason and after seeing the results of experiments that attempt is, I conclude that we must not allow anybody to do anything to everybody.

I take this the extreme of anarchy. But in this context, you are forcing small children to do things against their will. Of course, you can't let children do everything they want, but you damn well don't dictate all their actions.

This is not an authoritative issue. This is a social issue and should be handled by social means.

 

[Vosty]

Go get em Hakeem.
I personally think arts and msuci should be mandatory, but like HINDY said, I don't feel like they change my math skill in anyway. They do however influence my language though.

 

[Rui]

After I read his message, I interpreted the original poster's comment as not understanding what to apply more complex Mathematics to in real life. He mentioned triangles and circles, whose difficulty is nowhere near comparable with addition or multiplication. The majority of the people who posted here, however, seem to have understood it as him saying Mathematics is completely useless.
Well, I think that you don't get to apply most things you learn in more complex Mathematics on your regular day. But you will need it if you choose to study Physics, Chemistry, Geography, or even Geology. In Physics, for example, you'll need to deduct formulas, which involves, for example, knowing equations and all their underlying properties.
Daelin (if anyone still remembers who that is) once told me (or wrote?) he knew good computer programmers who failed at Mathematics. I assume that, likewise, you'll be able to do good at Physics without Maths(?), but you will always be conditioned on certain aspects.
I can see it from your point of view: if you don't like Physics or any other related subject, why do you need Mathematics?

A few people mentioned that different subjects develop you in different ways. I agree.

Most of my colleagues are probably happy they got rid of History-related subjects, but I'd like to still be studying them. Personally, I like to learn everything because I simply like to know. I do not find equal interest on every subject, but I like to know what they have to teach. I was terrible at Arts, but today I still wish I was able to pick up a pencil and draw something nicely.
The subject I find most useless, therefore, is the "Gym" class. No, I am not the fat guy being laughed at in class. I can see, more or less, the point of it but, unfortunately, for the majority of my class partners this is a class for exhibitionism and mocking those with difficulties on certain tasks down to the clowns of the show.
Unfortunately for my knowledge hunger, the government here does not allow us to study everything we want. You're either into Sciences, Economy, History and Geography, or Visual Arts.

Hakeem has dissected most arguments here. I'd like to give my contribution on that level as well.

Forcing them into situations where they can garner such knowledge is the only way to do it.

[...] Well I still think stimulating curiosity is the only way to go.

Learning with curiosity sounds good, but the term does not fit with the average teenager at all. Teenagers don't get interested in anything besides sports or computer games.
Our Mathematics teacher had a cold which cut our Mathematics class for two weeks. Nobody came up with a proposal for the teacher to give extra classes on free spots of our schedule and his own. Incidentally, last year we had a different Mathematics teacher who did this -- it's not like the measure is illegal or unknown to the students. It is even the same subject, ironically.

Pretty much anything can be fun if you have the right teacher.

This! I couldn't agree more. The right teacher stimulates your curiosity.

[...] And it teaches you WHY your cells need 8 glasses of water a day, and why drinking nothing but straight sugar water rots your teeth and gives you diabetes.

You don't need to know why. You just need to not do it. By coincidence, (or maybe not) I had thought of this argument while studying the eye. "Do you need to know how the eye works in order to see?"

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here. You don't need to know the «why» of anything. That's an argument for us to not go to school.

 

[BlargHonk]

Holy shit Hakeem, how long did that take you?

Erm, most accounts I've read have claimed the "two halves of the brain" metaphor is only a metaphor and is no way grounded in physical reality. Feel free to disprove me.

Right brain, Left Brain is partially true, there are sections on the Right more adept to abstract thought, while sections on the Left are better for logical thought. But those sections aren't the whole brain and there is a large chunk on both sides equally good at both.

Even then, the sections that are used for the other things can be used for anything, this is called brain plasticity, this is why this girl can live with half a brain, and this man lived after a 3 foot iron rod went through his head.

 

[Elenai]

Still even in metaphoric sense it still stands.

You lose a vast chunk of effectiveness in any form of intelligence via the gathering of knowledge if you don't develop your creativity which allows for imaginative, and inventive application of said knowledge. Which is done via the fine arts.

Really...I don't see what the big problem is, other than an exceedingly uncalled for disdain for artistry...

Alas I am reminded of the movie Equilibrium, when I see such posts, and people.

 

[TwistedImage]

Elenai, I hardly ever participate in anything to "improve" my creativity/imagination, yet I'm a really good writer - yes, that is in originality.

 

[warman45]

personally i think history is an incredibly important course, unfortunately it is ussually poorly taught, causing it to become useless.

the problem is in order to understand history and benifit you need wisdom, something that no one has found a way to teach.

you see the proof i have that history is so important is that all future events are directly linked to the past. if one minor thing changes in the past, like the placement of a rock in cavemen times. some kid could trip and die, and because the human population all derives from only a few cavemen (few by our standards) the bloodlines of many people could change.

it's this same principal that allows us to predict the future with 100% accuracy IF we knew everything about how reallity works AND everything that already happened AND we knew how to do near infinit calculations in an instant.

yes this is impossible as there's not enough room in our brains for the information and even computers have a finite speed to small for the math, HOWEVER we CAN make small predictions about the future. or at least be able to find out what caused problems in the past, so that we are better prepaired for the future.

example: if the US government knew about the crusades and their effect on the people of the middle east, then dessert storm might have been better planed.

 

[HINDYhat]

Alas I am reminded of the movie Equilibrium, when I see such posts, and people.

Because, obviously, people who claim that arts classes are not important are emotionless robots.

Which is done via the fine arts.

Creativity is not exclusively developed by fine arts. Any form of innovation or logical analysis involves creativity at some level. However, fine arts do not involve logical analysis.

I take this the extreme of anarchy. But in this context, you are forcing small children to do things against their will. Of course, you can't let children do everything they want, but you damn well don't dictate all their actions.

Yeah, I'd love to see a world without maths taught to children, because they don't like it. Hakeem, children don't know what's best for them.

 

[Elenai]

Elenai, I hardly ever participate in anything to "improve" my creativity/imagination, yet I'm a really good writer - yes, that is in originality.

...I rest my case.

"Hardly do I ever participate in anything to improve my creative tenancies, neither do I indulge in the processes of building a strong foundation in the imagination that assures my productivity in all areas of intelligence, and yet, somehow in the course of my indignant disdain for all things that issue forth from my innermost muse, and the expression of her ways there-of...I maintain that I am a most magnificent orator, though my orations be spoken through the written word, and not through the fruit of my lips, for it is my hands that speak, lest my the labia of my ever most human face set loose words that once said...cannot be retrieved, and though they are temporal in the second, fading away into the air to dissipate within the calamitous meanderings of atoms and particles...they remain immortal in the deep minds of all who might hear them. Such is the blessing of written word, that once written, it can be burned if it is an evil for men to read."

-The product of a Creative Mind

Because, obviously, people who claim that arts classes are not important are emotionless robots.

Wrong Education is the first step to a failed society.

Creativity is not exclusively developed by fine arts. Any form of innovation or logical analysis involves creativity at some level. However, fine arts do not involve logical analysis.

It takes a creative mind to apply logic. Creativity is developed at its highest efficiency in the fine arts.

The fine arts also involve Logical analysis. I cite the Renaissance and realism. I cite Da Vinci's sketches, I cite the realistic sculpts of the ancient Greeks, I cite the beautifully rendered buildings of the artistic architects of the past and present, I cite the wonder present in the simple picture of a dove, accurately rendered to its minutest detail, the play of shadow and light, and perspective.

 

[HINDYhat]

"Hardly do I ever participate in anything to improve my creative tenancies, nor do I indulge in the processes of building a strong foundation in the imagination that assures my productivity in all areas of intelligence, and yet, somehow in the course of my indignant disdain for all things that issue forth from my innermost muse, I maintain that I am a most magnificent orator, though my orations be spoken through the written word, and not through the fruit of my lips, for it is my hands that speak, lest my the labia of my ever most human face set loose words that once said...cannot be retrieved, and though they are temporal in the second, fading away into the air to dissipate within the calamitous meanderings of atoms and particles...they remain immortal in the deep minds of all who might hear them. Such is the blessing of written word, that once written, it can be burned if it is an evil for men to read."

-The product of a Creative Mind

Gee, you sound like a genius! All of that creativity sure looks like it develops your logical analysis.

 

[Elenai]

Gee, you sound like a genius! All of that creativity sure looks like it develops your logical analysis.

Thank you. I am most pleased with it myself.

 

[TwistedImage]

"Hardly do I ever participate in anything to improve my creative tenancies, neither do I indulge in the processes of building a strong foundation in the imagination that assures my productivity in all areas of intelligence, and yet, somehow in the course of my indignant disdain for all things that issue forth from my innermost muse, and the expression of her ways there-of...I maintain that I am a most magnificent orator, though my orations be spoken through the written word, and not through the fruit of my lips, for it is my hands that speak, lest my the labia of my ever most human face set loose words that once said...cannot be retrieved, and though they are temporal in the second, fading away into the air to dissipate within the calamitous meanderings of atoms and particles...they remain immortal in the deep minds of all who might hear them. Such is the blessing of written word, that once written, it can be burned if it is an evil for men to read."

Of course, you need to type out a poem for every sentence if you are to claim to be original!

 

[Elenai]

Of course, you need to type out a poem for every sentence if you are to claim to be original!

Actually, it is a way to show that you are able to expand vocabulary, and creative use. I just took it to an extreme for a point.

 

[Vosty]

Elenai, I hardly ever participate in anything to "improve" my creativity/imagination, yet I'm a really good writer - yes, that is in originality.

You do not have to make things to have good ideas and morals. For instance, reading lots of books can make you a better writer yourslef, because something will rub off if you actually give a damn abuot the text. People here for instance often shape the way I think. I really would thank Poot, Hakeem, shiik recently, and Elenai for some of the logic i pass on others.

personally i think history is an incredibly important course, unfortunately it is ussually poorly taught, causing it to become useless.

the problem is in order to understand history and benifit you need wisdom, something that no one has found a way to teach.

you see the proof i have that history is so important is that all future events are directly linked to the past. if one minor thing changes in the past, like the placement of a rock in cavemen times. some kid could trip and die, and because the human population all derives from only a few cavemen (few by our standards) the bloodlines of many people could change.

it's this same principal that allows us to predict the future with 100% accuracy IF we knew everything about how reallity works AND everything that already happened AND we knew how to do near infinit calculations in an instant.

yes this is impossible as there's not enough room in our brains for the information and even computers have a finite speed to small for the math, HOWEVER we CAN make small predictions about the future. or at least be able to find out what caused problems in the past, so that we are better prepaired for the future.

example: if the US government knew about the crusades and their effect on the people of the middle east, then dessert storm might have been better planed.

Things are more likely to not happen twice than happen twice. History can copy itself, but something is always a bit different. Like someone said "WWI didn't stop and WWII"
You are right. There is not many ways to teach wisdom. It is easier to have it forced upon you by someone wiser than you. You can not teach wisdom to someone who is wiser than you, and in the case of wisdom, anyone can be wiser than you.
Actually, we have no idea if the info will fit in our brains. We only use a small percent of our brains (Unless you are element of water) for use in our lives. We have not yet reached our potential.

Wrong Education is the first step to a failed society.

No education is almost better than bad education. If someone tells you the sky is blue because penguins have radioactive spit, you're better off not knowing.

It takes a creative mind to apply logic. Creativity is developed at its highest efficiency in the fine arts.

I prefer that it takes more of a creative mind to imply wisdom. Computers have lots of logic, but have no creativity (yet) and no wisdom (yet). I think of logic as knowing things and solving problems. Wisdom is making decisions. If computers could make decisions, if wouldn't ask me every time I delete something: "Are you sure you want to delete that?"

The fine arts also involve Logical analysis. I cite the Renaissance and realism. I cite Da Vinci's sketches, I cite the realistic sculpts of the ancient Greeks, I cite the beautifully rendered buildings of the artistic architects of the past and present, I cite the wonder present in the simple picture of a dove, accurately rendered to its minutest detail, the play of shadow and light, and perspective

I believe the fine arts bring us closer to the afterlife. Would you say so?


Yeah, gym is pretty useless, but most decisions bounce off of young people's skull. They believe it to be fun, and that is the basis of youth. Fun, games, energy, and life.
I also believe how fun a class is can be based on your teacherm for the good or bad. For instance, my music teacher ruins fun by making us sing childish songs by pop artist such as Hannah Montanna and The Jonas Brothers. I hate that class most.
My math teacher makes math fun. I always love math anyway, but he makes it more fun by making difficult problems all the time, yet being not very strict. I also love that my school teaches every grade with text books one year ahead. Since we are a small school (140 kids) my class is always the same each year, and we all take the same classes. So everyone takes 9th grade algebra (which is seemingly easy) together. It is fun being ahead. When we class with the public school ( we are a private school ) I often see them doing homework. My friend was having trouble. He asked what is ¹/₄ X ¹/₁₆
I lol'ed my ass off.

Btw, very nice compositon Elenai.

 

[Hakeem]

Yeah, I'd love to see a world without maths taught to children, because they don't like it.

Even if the OP were making the same argument, I am not making an argument against the basics. Everyone needs to know the basics. Anybody who doesn't find it awesome that the derivative of the sine wave is the cosine wave shouldn't have to bother with it.

Hakeem, children don't know what's best for them.

Neither does anyone else, to be perfectly fair.

Okay, so a child is being difficult and doesn't want to learn math. Do we induce shock therapy until the do? Hey, maybe that'll work, I just hope they'll have pity when we've grown old and they have to take care of us. I usually take the side of wanting to induce natural human curiosity instead. Forcing them only exacerbates the problem if they don't want to learn. Of course, they submit if you force them enough, but then they grow older, and it takes more and more force. A lot of people end up rejecting the ideas you try to force into them as soon as they are able.

This is a social problem and should be handled by social means. Force is a very ineffective way to manipulate people.

My math teacher makes math fun. I always love math anyway, but he makes it more fun by making difficult problems all the time, yet being not very strict.

It is fun being ahead.

Also a way to stimulate minds. Competition. Even children know they want to win.

We are a private school.

Ah, lol. And here I was thinking you lived somewhere with an actually good public school system.

 

[HINDYhat]

I am not making an argument against the basics. Everyone needs to know the basics. Anybody who doesn't find it awesome that the derivative of the sine wave is the cosine wave shouldn't have to bother with it.

Like I said, high school math generally isn't about direct practical applications but rather for developing logic and problem-solving skills. Those are things which everyone needs, whether they like maths or not. Also, what is 'basic' math, and where do you draw the line for what people should learn?

Neither does anyone else, to be perfectly fair.

I'm fairly sure that children don't have the necessary judgment to realize the importance of education at all (and I think we can all agree that education is important). If it were up to them, they'd be playing all the time. However, it isn't up to them, and they must get an education, and it isn't children who decided that. So whoever figured that out certainly knows better than children what's best for them.

Say a family is eating dinner. A child doesn't want to eat. His parents know that he must eat, and so they force him to.

I usually take the side of wanting to induce natural human curiosity instead.

If it were up to natural human curiosity, I doubt many people would have even wanted an education. Who wants to learn about numbers when they're 10 years old anyway?

This is a social problem and should be handled by social means. Force is a very ineffective way to manipulate people.

Do you have another suggestion?

 

[The Reborn Devil]

I love maths, science and physics, but not because I've ever had a good maths/physics/science teacher. I've never had a good nor funny teacher in my life except one guy I had 1 year. Like most others I've hated maths, until I found wc3. Warcraft made me like maths and physics and I got pretty good in maths and now I take maths for 1 grade ahead of the others which is really fun. Once you're good at maths and especially if you're better than the others then it gets really fun. Whenever I open my mouth in the maths class the others just turn into question marks because they have no idea about what the hell I'm talking about and how I came up with that solution. There is one downside though, and that is that everyone comes to me when they can't come up with an answer themselves and they disturb me, and if I say "go away" or anything similar they'll just get angry.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Like I said, high school math generally isn't about direct practical applications but rather for developing logic and problem-solving skills. Those are things which everyone needs, whether they like maths or not. Also, what is 'basic' math, and where do you draw the line for what people should learn?

I'd say it stops after Calculus, just because Calculus is where they break down everything you know about mathematics and make you look at it from a different perspective. Also, my Calculus teacher is awesome.

I'm fairly sure that children don't have the necessary judgment to realize the importance of education at all (and I think we can all agree that education is important). If it were up to them, they'd be playing all the time. However, it isn't up to them, and they must get an education, and it isn't children who decided that. So whoever figured that out certainly knows better than children what's best for them.

Say a family is eating dinner. A child doesn't want to eat. His parents know that he must eat, and so they force him to.

To play the Devil's Advocate here, a child will eat when he's hungry. Similarly, a child, dissatisfied with the mundanity of his life, will learn when he has to. A better example might be that the children don't know enough about nutrition to decide what constitutes a balanced meal. If it were up to them, their food might consist of candy and chips. Case in point present-day America. Yeah, fuck you, Stereotypical American Parent Strawman. There are things kids need to know. He may not want to, but these are the basics that they should be aware of.

If it were up to natural human curiosity, I doubt many people would have even wanted an education. Who wants to learn about numbers when they're 10 years old anyway?

I would, and I believe many others would as well.

You see, one inevitable disadvantage that school, and work in general, provides us is that it establishes things like learning and the kind of work we do as inherently bad. For example, when you were a wee one, and you saw your parents doing some mundane task, you might have been curious about it, and asked to help. You might have even been angry when she refused to let you help her do something like wash the dishes. Nowadays, you get pissed off when she tells you to wash the dishes while you're WoW. Why? It has to do with authority. In the past, she let you wash the dishes. It was your freedom to partake in these kinds of things. But now, it's a duty. An obligation for which there is no objection, because your mom supposedly possesses absolute authority over your actions. The result is passive aggression. You hate to do the dishes now, because it's not something you can do at your leisure, or for fun.

The same can be said about school. Maybe you were always curious why things freeze or why rain falls. If you were free to ask, the teacher might have made the concepts of phase changes and the water cycle a much more enjoyable experience. Instead, they teach it to you when you can care less, and you are forced to care. The result is the same passive aggression as before. You hate school, because it takes 6 hours of your day to make you learn things that you (now) could care less about.

Sure, it's a bad thing, but there just aren't feasible alternatives. There are things kids need to learn and need to know how to do, and for this there is only a force-fed education.

 

[Duragon]

You see, one inevitable disadvantage that school, and work in general, provides us is that it establishes things like learning and the kind of work we do as inherently bad. For example, when you were a wee one, and you saw your parents doing some mundane task, you might have been curious about it, and asked to help. You might have even been angry when she refused to let you help her do something like wash the dishes. Nowadays, you get pissed off when she tells you to wash the dishes while you're WoW. Why? It has to do with authority. In the past, she let you wash the dishes. It was your freedom to partake in these kinds of things. But now, it's a duty. An obligation for which there is no objection, because your mom supposedly possesses absolute authority over your actions. The result is passive aggression. You hate to do the dishes now, because it's not something you can do at your leisure, or for fun.

That's not necessarily the case. I was never told to do the dishes, and my curiosity was sated when I realized that it was boring as hell. After such realization, I never wanted to do it again. Now imagine the average and stereotypical thug kid who is at first "Hey, maybe I want to go to school because it's possibly fun," finds that it's not as much fun as going out with his bros and shooting heroine, and decides never to go to school again.

We have to force people into education to get them off the streets and maybe, just maybe, convince them that this is the better solution. Giving them the choice will result in more people squandering it. Pandering to curiosity is asking for a society of people on the streets with no practical knowledge whatsoever.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

That's not necessarily the case. I was never told to do the dishes, and my curiosity was sated when I realized that it was boring as hell. After such realization, I never wanted to do it again. Now imagine the average and stereotypical thug kid who is at first "Hey, maybe I want to go to school because it's possibly fun," finds that it's not as much fun as going out with his bros and shooting heroine, and decides never to go to school again.

You may not like doing the dishes, but it's still something you might have wanted to do, had someone not forced you to do it instead. You might not like to brush your teeth, but you don't want yeti breath, so you do so. You might not want to do the dishes, but you might want to do your mom a favor because you're feeling nice. Instead, she tells you to do so when you clearly don't want to. You associate washing the dishes with chores, and chores with a necessary evil, and lock yourself into the same passive agressive stance you take on work in general.

We have to force people into education to get them off the streets and maybe, just maybe, convince them that this is the better solution. Giving them the choice will result in more people squandering it. Pandering to curiosity is asking for a society of people on the streets with no practical knowledge whatsoever.

If they're on the streets, their preconceptions of school have probably already been established.

Humans aren't inherently evil, or inherently irresponsible.

 

[Duragon]

Humans aren't inherently evil, or inherently irresponsible.

Clearly. They are inherently self-serving, though, which means that if something isn't either entertaining or necessary for survival, there is no intrinsic motivation to do it. School is one of those things. (Some may argue otherwise, but I'm making the case for the generic thug character so it's okay)

You may not like doing the dishes, but it's still something you might have wanted to do, had someone not forced you to do it instead. You might not like to brush your teeth, but you don't want yeti breath, so you do so. You might not want to do the dishes, but you might want to do your mom a favor because you're feeling nice. Instead, she tells you to do so when you clearly don't want to. You associate washing the dishes with chores, and chores with a necessary evil, and lock yourself into the same passive agressive[sic] stance you take on work in general.

Even in the case where such mother didn't force it upon the child, it does not imply that the child will see the dishes as a desired-to-perform act after the initial rush of "What's this?!" wears off. Taking the analogy back to schooling, just because a boy sees a friend going to school, says "What's that? I want to try!", and then does so does not mean that he will stick with it once he finds out how silly school in general is compared to staying at home and playing with legos.

You're being far too optimistic here. You're making the assertion that people are inclined to want to stick with boring things after having generated initial interest by curiosity. That's not right at all. People will not stick with something if it is not entertaining on some level. This is why the student must be forced to go to school.

I agree with the pandering to curiosity argument with individual teachers, where they must perform well and entertain the students' curiosity. That way, they will suffer school to learn that awesome topic from the awesome professor. But for school in general? Far too many people, if given the choice, would just not do it. School requires time investment and requires you put a lot of time into practicing the material, which is boring even if you're interested in the topic. That boredom would kill the entire architecture you're proposing if they weren't forced to do it.

 

[HINDYhat]

I'd say it stops after Calculus, just because Calculus is where they break down everything you know about mathematics and make you look at it from a different perspective. Also, my Calculus teacher is awesome.

After Calculus?! You know, Calculus is a pretty large topic. Differential calculus, integral calculus, vector calculus, multivariate calculus, differential equations, etc. And the last few are very advanced topics.

A better example might be that the children don't know enough about nutrition to decide what constitutes a balanced meal.

This is what I was trying to say.

The same can be said about school. Maybe you were always curious why things freeze or why rain falls. If you were free to ask, the teacher might have made the concepts of phase changes and the water cycle a much more enjoyable experience.

I've been in classes where the teacher was open to explain everything. I found it extremely interesting and got the most out of it. The rest of the class hated it and wanted it over with as soon as possible.

Most people really don't want to go to school, not because of your dishwashing argument, but rather because they realize that it's a lot of work and involves studying things that you don't necessarily care about.

 

[Deaod]

Could you convey that or do you have to hear the propaganda first hand to buy into it? Say, can you still not wear swastikas?

No, displaying swastikas in contexts other than historical and i think explicitely negative is forbidden.
Now that you ask me about it, i cant exactly tell what sort of material we learned from. Mostly history books, i guess. I dont think they showed us actual nazi propaganda in school (as far as i remember). We did of course talk about most (if not all) of their ideals. What they wanted to do, what they wanted to achieve. And about what they actually did.
Anyway, Germany under Hitler isnt the only topic you can talk about in history classes, theres lots of other topics as well (which also are interesting).

Those who know history are doomed to repeat it.

I think its the other way 'round. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Religion is not an alternative to philosophy. It is very closely related, but not serving the same purpose.

Yeah, but i think learning only one side in school is bad.

Most people have that. They just don't know the price of fish in China.

Most people know about their immediate surroundings, agreed. But unless you are taught, you wont know anything about plate tectonics. Its not terribly important (so its a bad example) but i hope you get the idea.

Refused to learn or do the work? I refused to do the work. I couldn't help but learn.

Well, i refused to actively learn things. But i still was present during those classes, so i guess some things are still stuck in my head.

EDIT:

Humans aren't inherently evil

I disagree. Read "Lord of the Flies".

 

[Kwah]

I disagree. Read "Lord of the Flies".

Are you suggesting that that constitutes a valid source as to human nature?

 

[Deaod]

Are you suggesting that that constitutes a valid source as to human nature?

No. Its not a scientific paper.
It IS however a (good) book about facism and human nature in general.

 

[Snarewave]

You people turned my thread into a philosophy class. I think I'm worse than I started off with.

 

[Duragon]

You people turned my thread into a philosophy class. I think I'm worse than I started off with.

The discussion currently underway in this thread is the only reason this thread isn't closed already, so you probably should just sit back and enjoy.

 

[MySpaceBarBroke]

Clearly. They are inherently self-serving, though, which means that if something isn't either entertaining or necessary for survival, there is no intrinsic motivation to do it. School is one of those things. (Some may argue otherwise, but I'm making the case for the generic thug character so it's okay)

There is no generic thug character. There's no archetypes or stereotypes at all that can exist in real life, and even if there was, "generic thug character" would pursue a life if truancy whether you wanted him to or not. And making that character go to school would only act as a hazard and a deterrent for other students.

Sometime around middle school and high school, no amount of "horse and carrot" is going to help a student learn anything they just don't want to learn. They'll put things in their short term memory and move on.

Even in the case where such mother didn't force it upon the child, it does not imply that the child will see the dishes as a desired-to-perform act after the initial rush of "What's this?!" wears off. Taking the analogy back to schooling, just because a boy sees a friend going to school, says "What's that? I want to try!", and then does so does not mean that he will stick with it once he finds out how silly school in general is compared to staying at home and playing with legos.

Again, it's not about curiosity, or even enjoying the things you do. These two things are not necessary for you to voluntarily do something. As a child and as an adult, people are perfectly capable of doing favors for other people. Maybe even moreso than following orders. You are more capable of persuing an education than you are at being shoved along it.

You're being far too optimistic here. You're making the assertion that people are inclined to want to stick with boring things after having generated initial interest by curiosity. That's not right at all. People will not stick with something if it is not entertaining on some level. This is why the student must be forced to go to school.

I'd like to point out, however, that no one is really forced to go to school. Anyone who wanted to pursue a life of truancy could easily do so. There are few police officers willing to track absent students down, and few parents who could chain their student to a desk.

I agree with the pandering to curiosity argument with individual teachers, where they must perform well and entertain the students' curiosity. That way, they will suffer school to learn that awesome topic from the awesome professor. But for school in general? Far too many people, if given the choice, would just not do it. School requires time investment and requires you put a lot of time into practicing the material, which is boring even if you're interested in the topic. That boredom would kill the entire architecture you're proposing if they weren't forced to do it.

Why does it have to be school in the strict manner proposed? To begin with, there are many things school neglects to teach that leave you unprepared for life. Next, it's natural for your curiosity to dwindle if there's as little hands-on education as there is today. We associate so many "necessary evils" with school, like boredom, waking up early, tests, etc. Everything is designed, almost to convince you that you're already in the cubicle farm. Teachers give you a powerpoint, read directly from it, make you copy down notes, etc. There are many teachers who drive away from this kind of droning, but many more who do. And perhaps making school take up all of your daylight is effective training to become a farmer or something, but for most normal people, daytime as well as night are equally good times to enjoy things other than school. It's no surprise that most children consider school some kind of horrific nemesis.

Ultimately, this is an argument of nature vs nurture. I contend that we have been raised under this preconception that school as we know has raised us into the dull, uninterested, obligatory students we are today, and you argue that humans are inherently uninterested in the things that are necessary to them. The answer is probably somewhere in between. There are probably things considered common knowledge that they might not care about.

Naturally, I'm hardly a sociologist or a psychologist, so I can only argue hypotheticals, but these are my thoughts.

 

[Duragon]

There is no generic thug character. There's no archetypes or stereotypes at all that can exist in real life, ...

You're (perhaps accidentally) using a logical fallacy to attack the underlying mode of my argument without addressing the argument itself. Whether a thug archetype exists (which, believe it or not, it does, as it is a society-defined construct) is irrelevant to my point. Fortunately, this is already addressed; see below...

...and even if there was, "generic thug character" would pursue a life if truancy whether you wanted him to or not. And making that character go to school would only act as a hazard and a deterrent for other students.

Make the case that they're not the ickiest of the icky at the get-go and that they're just on their way there. The becoming-a-thug archetype fits perfectly in the cracks you portray. They might not pursue a life of truancy automagically and they won't be a hazard to others right away. Finally, almost certainly if given a choice to go to school, they won't because they're on the way to becoming a thug and if had they gone to school they may have changed directions.

That archetype is so very common where I come from and people ending up as contributing members of society because of being forced to go to school practically defines my entire graduating high school class. I speak from experience, even though that doesn't necessarily help my point any.

Again, it's not about curiosity, or even enjoying the things you do. These two things are not necessary for you to voluntarily do something. As a child and as an adult, people are perfectly capable of doing favors for other people. Maybe even moreso than following orders. You are more capable of persuing an education than you are at being shoved along it.

Surely you recognize that the motivation of a favor on a human level is to get a favor in return when you need it. Creating these implied obligations is worse than all of the other options we've discussed if you ask me.

Why does it have to be school in the strict manner proposed? To begin with, there are many things school neglects to teach that leave you unprepared for life. Next, it's natural for your curiosity to dwindle if there's as little hands-on education as there is today. We associate so many "necessary evils" with school, like boredom, waking up early, tests, etc. Everything is designed, almost to convince you that you're already in the cubicle farm. Teachers give you a powerpoint, read directly from it, make you copy down notes, etc. There are many teachers who drive away from this kind of droning, but many more who do. And perhaps making school take up all of your daylight is effective training to become a farmer or something, but for most normal people, daytime as well as night are equally good times to enjoy things other than school. It's no surprise that most children consider school some kind of horrific nemesis.

School is just an example, like any other. Yeah, school leaves you unprepared in many regards, but with the poor resources and poor teaching staff and poor administration staff and poor facilities, they're doing fairly well I'd say.

We really need to keep this discussion away from the quality of specific instructors. We're discussing school as a whole. The truth of the matter is that a good instructor can ameliorate either of our arguments because that instructor in specific draws the student into the class. It is perhaps the fundamental necessity for a student to like school at all - regardless of how he got there. It is an irrelevant point to discuss.

I never associated school to a necessary evil when I was forced to go. As a young child, the idea of being forced to go and get the measles shot was an exciting thing. It was new, and whether I was forced or not didn't change my outlook on it. It was only if I was continually forced to do it after I'd learned as much as my curiosity cared to know about it that it became a chore. Hence your dishwashing example. In my case, being forced to go to school was cool because I then met those teaches I refer to in my above paragraph who made it not a chore, whether I was forced to go or not. I use myself as an example because it's the one example I can give with utmost certainty.

It's no surprise that most children consider school some kind of horrific nemesis.

I think once you reach a certain age, whether you were forced to go to school or did so willingly ends up with students feeling the same about school. It is, no matter the means, a gigantic time sink that prevents you from doing other things that are very fun. And to top it off, regardless of whether you enjoy school or not, homework and essays and those sorts of things are always lame. (Perhaps because we are forced to do them in the first place? I see you making that case in your response, but even the essays I was not forced to do but did for my own edification pissed me off, so I am not sure)

Ultimately, this is an argument of nature vs nurture. I contend that we have been raised under this preconception that school as we know has raised us into the dull, uninterested, obligatory students we are today, and you argue that humans are inherently uninterested in the things that are necessary to them. The answer is probably somewhere in between. There are probably things considered common knowledge that they might not care about.

Yes, I suspect the reality is somewhere in between. I've seen cases where both nature and nurture play a substantial and inarguable role, but yet there are so many other opposing cases that you cannot entirely neglect the other argument.

My argument is exactly as you say it, that humans are innately uninterested in things of development, but only care for what is necessary/entertaining for them in the here and now. The entire idea of thinking ahead to your future (building for college) is a very alien thought for a human that is not influenced by society.

Naturally, I'm hardly a sociologist or a psychologist, so I can only argue hypotheticals, but these are my thoughts.

And I appreciate that. I must confess that similarly, I am neither of those things, so my opinion is also merely constructed of my life experiences and such hypotheticals.

 

[Mulgrim]

lol you think you have it bad? i have to take latin as mandatory, and it counts as much as all the other classes.

 

[Duragon]

Latin is more useful for your further development and grasp of the English language than your English class is.