Is Life Predetermined?

[Element of Water]

A calculator can only wait for an input to give an obvious output.

A brain waits for input (senses) and returns a calculated output. It's the same in principal, just more complicated.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah, I read the whole post. I just skipped over most of what you said

 

[Eleandor]

IMO Eleandor just trolled Callahan and said nonsense

*I* trolled *him*? He's the one who started flaming. And he kept flaming, not only to me but Elenai and Element of Water too. Essentially those who have a different opinion. I'm talking nonsense to him because he can suck my hairy balls. Don't mix action and reaction please.

A calculator can only wait for an input to give an obvious output.

The brain waits for impulses as input too, to generate an obvious output. If I hit your leg, your brain receives input asking for a response. As a response, the brain tells your leg to respond by kicking me.
Obviously it's not as simple as that, especially for input that isn't so obvious as hitting a leg. I never claimed it was. But the brain essentially is an organic machine.

 

[HappyCockroach]

The point is that even if the future is said to be predetermined, we can't know what it is, therefore it isn't determined at all.

 

[Element of Water]

Just because we can't know what the future is, it doesn't mean it's not predetermined.

 

[Eleandor]

The point is that even if the future is said to be predetermined, we can't know what it is, therefore it isn't determined at all.

I can't see proxima-centauri. Therefor, it does not exist.

Better example:
I can't see God. Therefor, he does not exist.

No, we cannot verify God exists. Neither can we verify he does not. The same is true when it comes to predetermination. It's a philosophical argument, not one that can be proven in any way.

 

[HappyCockroach]

You can determine the future for a small system of objects, like a ball, a ramp, etc, if you study it a lot and prevent it from external factors. So this is determinable/determined.

But you can't determine the future of baby the was just born. Undeterminable. (if this word exists. If it doesn't, you got it)

 

[Callahan]

*I* trolled *him*? He's the one who started flaming. And he kept flaming, not only to me but Elenai and Element of Water too. Essentially those who have a different opinion. I'm talking nonsense to him because he can suck my hairy balls. Don't mix action and reaction please.

The brain waits for impulses as input too, to generate an obvious output. If I hit your leg, your brain receives input asking for a response. As a response, the brain tells your leg to respond by kicking me.
Obviously it's not as simple as that. I never claimed it was. But the brain essentially is an organic machine.

Wrong again.
It's not because some computer function are include in brain that it's the same.Computer lacks many thing human brains have.
Maybe you are like a machine because you are a dull person and you need your face to be kicked to react.

Also say thank to happycoakroach.He just throw you a buoy so you can pretend you were just trolling to hide your ignorance and the superficiality of your argument.
Also don't try to rally more asslicker by pretending your were defending elenai and element of water.

 

[Eleandor]

There's no way between it. Either everything is predetermined (other than physical laws perhaps), or nothing is.

How can you see the future of a ball? How can you tell if it's going to start rolling in 1 minute or in 1 hour?

But you can't determine the future of baby the was just born. Undeterminable. (if this word exists. If it doesn't, you got it)

"Undeterminable" is not equal to "not predetermined".

We cannot determine if the first of january 2020 is going to be a sunny day. We most certainly will never be able to.
It does not imply that the first of january 2020 is NOT going to be a sunny day.

 

[Vulcano]

Stupid discussion.

Something completely random: radiactive decay, you can predict the global decay but never the exact moment that a nucleus will send out an Helium ion

@Eleandor we will probably be able to determine it the 31 december 2019

 

[Callahan]

We cannot determine if the first of january 2020 is going to be a sunny day. We most certainly will never be able to.

Lol it's about calendar so it is the easiest think to determine again you show your ignorance.

 

[Eleandor]

"Undeterminable" is not equal to "not predetermined".

@Eleandor we will probably be able to determine it the 31 december 2019

We cannot determine it right now.
Similarly, as we cannot determine the thoughts of someone right now, it does not mean we cannot do so in 20 years from now.
Today we can already determine how someone will look like given his DNA.
Today we can already detect certain thoughts. People can already move in second life simply by thinking of moving. I'm confident we will be able to do incredible things with the brain in 50 years.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Things. Just. Happen.

You can't know ahead of time. Whether it's predetermined or not, you can't tell and it's completely irrelevant. I'm pretty sure we've reached the conclusion a dozen times in this thread already.

But the subject now appears to be evolution/God/religion in general.

 

[Zorga]

It is highly unlikely that the ''force'' you call ''god'' exists. Sure i cant prove that he doesn't exist but neither can you prove he does. We got ourselves a very dilemma and a very old discussion where neither side, religous or science will ever be able to prove their right. If not god sends his shiny lights down and tells the world he does ''exist..'' which will ''probobly'' never happen.

Anyway this isn't what the thread is about and if it was, it would just be as stupid as this thread is at the moment. Alot of the posts involve Flame, Crap and well more Crap. I did find the first posts in the thread very interesting though would like to see more of it. I really dont have a clue about if Life is Predetermined or not but in a way i really dont care. But still i find it interesting reading your opinions . Whats the probobility of that? Dunno and dont care. And if all of you 'leet hive members'' wonder where i got my air, the answer is ?. Mayhaps a interesting new discussion ? . (Probobly not)

 

[I)eadnerzhul]

It is highly unlikely that the ''force'' you call ''god'' exists.

In 6th grade, I've learned that cells come from other cells, and there is no such thing as "spontaneous generation". Now let me ask you: where did the first cell come from? Where did the big bang come from? You might just say "the force" or "a force" or what have you, but the fact of the matter is that it was something that can defy the laws of logic and science (spontaneous generation does not exist). The only thing in existence that can do such a thing is God.

Also, what kind of a stupid god would be predetermining lives while he could do fun stuff since he's a god?

Because God is srz bizns.

Actually, it's because God isn't like Humans. Not one bit. He doesn't need to "have fun". Despite popular belief, God isn't an angry old man in the sky poking us people with his stick and bearing a wide, evil grin on his face.[/OFFTOPIC]

I believe that life is predetermined, yet not so.

I believe that God gives us the ability to do what we want, as we want, and how we want it. However, God knows what decisions we will actually make before we even make them. This does not mean we cannot decisions; we can! But God will know which ones we shall make, and what the outcomes shall be, before we can see them ourselves. He is Omnipotent, after all.

 

[Elenai]

There is no flame in any of my posts, else I stated it.
Statement != flame.

Yes, you have. Alot. If I had said the things to you that you have said to others, I would be banned on sight...You should be, and will be, punished severely, as soon as I have spoken with the proper authorities.

As for the rest of this thread: Try to keep it to 'pre-determined', since arguing "God" and his nature here, is fruitless, since the vast majority of the site's populace (especially the agnostic/atheist group by default) has a miniscule whisper of a grasp of God, and cannot argue accurately for, or against him, or his existence, or how he works.

I blame lack of information, and desire for information, and purposeful use/gathering of 'wrong' information. Willful ignorance in essence.

So please: Predetermined/Random. Not Religious/Anti-religious/Areligious

______________

As for you Callahan: You clearly, and I do stress clearly, missed the entire point of the video I linked.

If you had the least little inkling of an ability to apply a situation in fiction to a concept in reality...You would have noted the line that talked specifically about the function of Galadriel's mirror.

"It shows things that are, things that were, and things that have not yet come to pass"

"Yet these things are not certain, because not all ends of the road are known, even the wisest cannot tell exactly what they are seeing."

Paraphrased, and made 'simpler' for your understanding.

The nature of the Universe's predetermined nature could be seen very much like Galadriels mirror.

Things WILL happen, Things HAVE happened, and the Present DETERMINES these things, based on what HAPPENED in the past, even if we cannot see all ends of the road. But a road it is none the less.

Predetermination does not require 'conscious' thought behind it.

If I get angry, and pick up a hammer, and bash a guys brains out, then through a series of causes and effects, it is pretty well predetermined that he will die due to his brains being displaced from his skull and strewn about ever so lovingly upon my carpet...

There is no observed, observable, or even palpable alternate series of events, no alternate timeline or universe that we can see, and as you a 'man of science' must therefore admit...the lack of observation of this phenomenon of alternate realities must conclude only one observable, and observed reality, in which the timeline is quite clear.

I got angry, I picked up the hammer, and I killed a guy.

And since time exists only in the present, (as far as we can access in the physical realm of reality, having as of yet no time travel), then our future is predetermined by our choices in the present.

Action (A) lead to (B) which lead to (C), and will cause (Series D) what ever D may be. and that is how it happened, and what will happen.

Time did not alter itself, it cannot alter itself, it is set in stone, recorded, and the effects of action (A) have rippled, and caused (B) which causes ripples which causes (C) which causes ripples, which causes (Series D) of other events.

Time is predetermined...simply because the present will have actions, that have specific consequences, that will occur, and our present choices are affected by the choices, and occurances of the past.

Action (A) that caused effect (B), caused B, and there is nothing that can be changed about it, it is recorded, and set in stone. Unalterable, and the consequences of those actions instantly determined, simply because that is how time works. And the series of events was set in motion, and recorded in stone as the present swiftly in the passing of mere seconds became the past, the very second I picked up that hammer, and initiated the cause and effect series, that is being recorded in the stone of timeline as I travel through the present into the future.

The second I picked up that hammer, the cause that came with my action, immediately predetermined the outcomes that would come from that action, setting in stone the effects, as the present became the past, as it moved forward into the future.

If you roll a ball forward, it will go forward, it will not go backwards through your hand.

When you roll that ball forward, it goes the direction that the cause has determined it to go, based on the surrounding factors such as friction, and etc. And with no alternate timelines, or realities to observe, there is only the one single conclusive reality with which you can scientifically, and logically gauge the workings of time and destiny.

Predetermined, by cause, is the only logical conclusion. Because that is how time works, and the only observable way in which it works.

As for you disputing the comparisson between the brain and a computer.

Yes...the brain IS a computer, it is by definition a computer, and infact, works in almost the exact same way as a computer at its most basic idea.

It is made of flesh, and is eons more complicated...that is the only differing factor.

A computer works through electronic signals being sent across the chips. the way these signals travel and the outcome is determined by mechanical processes (tapping a key), and electronics/wireless/etc.

A brain works through electronic signals being sent across the synapses. the way these signals travel and the outcome is determined by mechanical processes (stubbing a toe?), and electronics (nerves), wireless stimuli (outside stimuli, such as heat), and etc.

The brain is a computer. A computer 'computes' data that we input, and does a function based on that computation.

Our brain computes outside stimuli (data) that is input, and does a function based on that computation.

 

[Eleandor]

wtf. you can always say something was faith ...
so faith doesn't excist. it's pretty retarded actually ... because ... well .... faith is the flying spaghetti monster. Also, what kind of a stupid god would be predetermining lives while he could do fun stuff since he's a god?

I believe life is predetermined without believing there is a God. It makes more sense to me than life that is not predetermined, given there is no God.

 

[PurplePoot]

As for the rest of this thread: Try to keep it to 'pre-determined', since arguing "God" and his nature here, is fruitless, since the vast majority of the site's populace (especially the agnostic/atheist group by default) has a miniscule whisper of a grasp of God, and cannot argue accurately for, or against him, or his existence, or how he works.

Read: people who disagree with me lack understanding and are therefore automatically wrong.

Can I start using that line? It seems to make the task of presenting an actual argument irrelevant.

Oh wait, I forgot, I'm not religious.

Galadriel's mirror and stuff

Just because you can make an analogy to a movie/book doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Callahan]

There is no observed, observable, or even palpable alternate series of events, no alternate timeline or universe that we can see, and as you a 'man of science' must therefore admit...the lack of observation of this phenomenon of alternate realities must conclude only one observable, and observed reality, in which the timeline is quite clear.

A man of science doesn't invent fancy story to explain the world when in lacks of observation.

I got angry, I picked up the hammer, and I killed a guy.

And since time exists only in the present, (as far as we can access in the physical realm of reality, having as of yet no time travel), then our future is predetermined by our choices in the present.

How can future be predetermined by the present?
Predetermined = determined in advance.
Should I link again freedictionary?
Or you mean future is determined by the present.
I think you're misunderstanding predetermined with determined.

Action (A) lead to (B) which lead to (C), and will cause (Series D) what ever D may be. and that is how it happened, and what will happen.

Yeah causality...How it involve predetermination?I mean how can you support causality and predetermination it's pretty contradictory.
It's exaclty the contrary.The present is the cause and future is the effect so w/o present to impact ,there is no future.Because you can predict event or meteo through set of parameter doesn't mean it was written.

Time did not alter itself, it cannot alter itself, it is set in stone, recorded, and the effects of action (A) have rippled, and caused (B) which causes ripples which causes (C) which causes ripples, which causes (Series D) of other events.

Let me say it again :
Yeah causality...How it involve predetermination?I mean how can you support causality and predetermination it's pretty contradictory.
It's exaclty the contrary.The present is the cause and future is the effect so w/o present to impact ,there is no future.Because you can predict event or meteo through set of parameter doesn't mean it was written.

Time is predetermined...simply because the present will have actions, that have specific consequences, that will occur, and our present choices are affected by the choices, and occurances of the past.

Again : Yeah causality...How it involve predetermination?I mean how can you support causality and predetermination it's pretty contradictory.
It's exaclty the contrary.The present is the cause and future is the effect so w/o present to impact ,there is no future.Because you can predict event or meteo through set of parameter doesn't mean it was written.

Action (A) that caused effect (B), caused B, and there is nothing that can be changed about it, it is recorded, and set in stone. Unalterable, and the consequences of those actions instantly determined, simply because that is how time works. And the series of events was set in motion, and recorded in stone as the present swiftly in the passing of mere seconds became the past, the very second I picked up that hammer, and initiated the cause and effect series, that is being recorded in the stone of timeline as I travel through the present into the future.

The second I picked up that hammer, the cause that came with my action, immediately predetermined the outcomes that would come from that action, setting in stone the effects, as the present became the past, as it moved forward into the future.

If you roll a ball forward, it will go forward, it will not go backwards through your hand.

When you roll that ball forward, it goes the direction that the cause has determined it to go, based on the surrounding factors such as friction, and etc. And with no alternate timelines, or realities to observe, there is only the one single conclusive reality with which you can scientifically, and logically gauge the workings of time and destiny.

Predetermined, by cause, is the only logical conclusion. Because that is how time works, and the only observable way in which it works.[/QUOTE]Again 3rd : Yeah causality...How it involve predetermination?I mean how can you support causality and predetermination it's pretty contradictory.
It's exaclty the contrary.The present is the cause and future is the effect so w/o present to impact ,there is no future.Because you can predict event or meteo through set of parameter doesn't mean it was written.

See?Repeating the same example 3 times doesn't make you right.
You're precisely saying that the present impact the future so how can the future be written before the present?

As for you disputing the comparisson between the brain and a computer.

Yes...the brain IS a computer, it is by definition a computer, and infact, works in almost the exact same way as a computer at its most basic idea.

It is not by definition a computer or else we won't named them by 2 different words.

It is made of flesh, and is eons more complicated...that is the only differing factor.

The fact that is eons more complicated is precisely what make a brain not a computer.
Computer are made by humans and therefore we have a relative absolute (if you accept the expression) knowledge on how it works.
While brains keep some secret from humans knowledge.
You cannot compare something you don't know with another you perfectly know how it works.
Maybe only the part of the brain that work like a computer can be compared with a computer but not the whole brain.

A computer works through electronic signals being sent across the chips. the way these signals travel and the outcome is determined by mechanical processes (tapping a key), and electronics/wireless/etc.

A brain works through electronic signals being sent across the synapses. the way these signals travel and the outcome is determined by mechanical processes (stubbing a toe?), and electronics (nerves), wireless stimuli (outside stimuli, such as heat), and etc.

It is the part of the brain that works like a computer.

The brain is a computer. A computer 'computes' data that we input, and does a function based on that computation.

Our brain computes outside stimuli (data) that is input, and does a function based on that computation.

Brain can compute like a computer.
It cannot be reduced to his computing function.

 

[Element of Water]

Blah... blah... blah... Wrong. the point is, that this "causality" is the very reason everything is predetermined. It all starts with A. The only possible things that this can cause are events B. Events B cause events C. Events A, B, C, etc, are the only things that can happen given the previous events. Therefore, they are all predetermined.

 

[Elenai]

Read: people who disagree with me lack understanding and are therefore automatically wrong.

Can I start using that line?

You already carry the attitude. And already use the line in other ways.

"Innaccurate, irrelevant, wrong"

Just because you can make an analogy to a movie/book doesn't mean it's right.

Just because you can say my analogy isn't right...doesn't mean it is wrong.

It seems to make the task of presenting an actual argument irrelevant.

A picture is worth a thousand words. I try to work with pictures, even if I have to make one in the mind. It helps make a relevant point.

Oh wait, I forgot, I'm not religious.

But you are a smart ass apparently.

A man of science doesn't invent fancy story to explain the world when in lacks of observation.

What about mutli-alternate universes?

How can future be predetermined by the present?

Easily, watch this:

Present (one milisecond later): Behold! I've moved forward into the future, and am now in the present that was the future. The choice I made in the past (which was the present) determines the effect of the future, which is now the present.

Predetermined = determined in advance.

Yes indeed. Determined by a various list of causes that will produce the effect.

Think of it this way...

2+3+4 = 9

Think of 2, 3, and 4 as secific causes/actions/stimuli, and think of 9 as the effect that will come from those causes/actions/stimuli.

The numeric sentence here, is like the time line.

2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 9

What will happen...will happen, 9 will occur because 2, 3, and 4 have occurred.

2, 3, and 4 have predetermined 9.

Should I link again freedictionary?

No need, English is my prime subject.

Or you mean future is determined by the present.

As I just explained, and yes.

I think you're misunderstanding predetermined with determined.

The present always becomes the past Therefore any thing determined in the present, automatically becomes predetermined simply because of the fact that time is moving forward.

Yeah causality...How it involve predetermination?I mean how can you support causality and predetermination it's pretty contradictory.

Not at all...

Cause is what predetermines.

It's exaclty the contrary.The present is the cause and future is the effect so w/o present to impact ,there is no future.Because you can predict event or meteo through set of parameter doesn't mean it was written.

You have forgotten 'the past' entirely. And the past is what determines the present which determines the future.

You can't alter the past, it is 'recorded', and set in stone in the timeline. "It has happened and thats that".

However, the crux of the point is, that you can't change the future either. It also, is set in stone. Because no matter what happens in the future, it is all dependant on your choice in the present, which is determined by the events of the past.

Predetermination in physical practice. Happening as we speak.

It is not by definition a computer or else we won't named them by 2 different words.

Congradulations! You've discovered semantics!

The mandarin word for love is ài, does that mean that love in China isn't the same as in England?

Tortellini and Lasagna are two completely different words for two different looking noodles, that if you looked at the recipe, and the taste, without taking into account the shape, then you would realize...its the same noodle. Flour, water, egg, etc.

The brain is a computer. Its time to realize that.

Brain can compute like a computer.
It cannot be reduced to his computing function.

The computer however, can advance.

 

[Vulcano]

everything is predetermined <-> nothing is random
So if there is at least one thing that is random then everything isn't predetermined.
I hope everyone agrees with this.

And here is something that, as far as we know, is completely random:

Something completely random: radiactive decay, you can predict the global decay but never the exact moment that a nucleus will send out an alpha particle.

This is my argument against predetermination.

@Elenai, a brain works totally different then a computer: a brain makes connections between other parts of the brain when we learn something or when we 'make' memories. While a computer stores things with 0's and 1's.
Also a computer can never forget something(if we ignore events from outside like viruses)
A brain can forget something when that something isn't used anymore and it's quite random when exactly something is forgotten.

 

[D4RK_G4ND4LF]

everything is predetermined <-> nothing is random
So if there is at least one thing that is random then everything isn't predetermined.
I hope everyone agrees with this.

And here is something that, as far as we know, is completely random:


This is my argument against predetermination.

@Elenai, a brain works totally different then a computer: a brain makes connections between other parts of the brain when we learn something or when we 'make' memories. While a computer stores things with 0's and 1's.
Also a computer can never forget something(if we ignore events from outside like viruses)
A brain can forget something when that something isn't used anymore and it's quite random when exactly something is forgotten.

did you ever delete something?
what about a system which deletes old stuff?
imho the same

 

[Element of Water]

Radioactive decay must have some "random seed", making it appear random, when it isn't actually. Gravity, perhaps?

 

[Vulcano]

At least not gravity as the force which holds a nucleus together (Strong interaction) is 10^40 times stronger than gravity.

Wikipedia: Radioactive decay is the process in which an unstable atomic nucleus spontaneously loses energy by emitting ionizing particles and radiation.

 

[Eleandor]

Something completely random: radiactive decay, you can predict the global decay but never the exact moment that a nucleus will send out an alpha particle.

You can't predict it simply because you can't measure it.
Besides, we just can't see the pattern. It doesn't mean it's random. Is the number pi random? No. There are methods to calculate each digit of the number pi. But we can't see any sort of pattern in it.

Another comparison: rolling dies. You assume you cannot predict the outcome of a die. But you do know that if you keep rolling long enough, you'll have equal chances of rolling a 1, as well as a 6.
However, the way a die falls down is entirely subject to physical laws.
If it would be possible to take all relevant forces in account, as well as the way the die is thrown (velocity, as well as the way your hands have grip on it), then I believe you could determine the outcome of the die.

If you could actually go on a sub-molecular level and take all factors in account (which we never will) I believe you could predict when a particle is radiated.

The problem here is that you cannot come up with a possible experiment that takes all possible external factors in account. Therefor, there's no way to scientifically prove or disprove randomness of radiation. We cannot predict it, because there is no experiment available. It's the same with God or with String Theory. There's no experiment available that can truly disprove the theory, so none of the parties can have facts that they're the ones who got it right. Hence why I said before that this is not a scientific but a philosophic debate.

Also a computer can never forget something(if we ignore events from outside like viruses)

You've never deleted any file from your computer? Besides, your hard drive does forget things over time. It's one of the problems engineers have been faced with. The solution is error checking and repairing. Bits that have been inverted because of whatever reason can be detected through cyclic redundancy checks and be repaired in many cases.

A brain can forget something when that something isn't used anymore and it's quite random when exactly something is forgotten.

Maybe you have a really weird brain, but the only things I have forgotten are unimportant or things I haven't thought of in a very long time.
Computers have something similar. Never seen "Desktop Cleanup" pop up yet? It suggests to clean up unused icons on your desktop. You could easily write a program that removes files that aren't used often or are not considered critical. But the thing is: a computer was designed to store information we "forget", so it wouldn't be nice to find out your computer has been removing files without telling you. Such a program isn't used because it isn't useful.

 

[Vulcano]

You can't predict it simply because you can't measure it.

If you could actually go on a sub-molecular level and take all factors in account (which we never will) I believe you could predict when a particle is radiated.

The problem here is that you cannot come up with a possible experiment that takes all possible external factors in account. Therefor, there's no way to scientifically prove or disprove randomness of radiation. We cannot predict it, because there is no experiment available. It's the same with God or with String Theory. There's no experiment available that can truly disprove the theory, so none of the parties can have facts that they're the ones who got it right. Hence why I said before that this is not a scientific but a philosophic debate.

You've never deleted any file from your computer? Besides, your hard drive does forget things over time. It's one of the problems engineers have been faced with. The solution is error checking and repairing. Bits that have been inverted because of whatever reason can be detected through cyclic redundancy checks and be repaired in many cases.

Maybe you have a really weird brain, but the only things I have forgotten are unimportant or things I haven't thought of in a very long time.
Computers have something similar. Never seen "Desktop Cleanup" pop up yet? It suggests to clean up unused icons on your desktop. You could easily write a program that removes files that aren't used often or are not considered critical. But the thing is: a computer was designed to store information we "forget", so it wouldn't be nice to find out your computer has been removing files without telling you. Such a program isn't used because it isn't useful.

-I think it's possible to detect the radiative decay of a single nucleus, atleast i hope ATLAS and CMS can since they should be able to detect Higgs-Bosons which are a lot smaller than Hadrons

-String Theory isn't stable yet, the LHC is going to test a part of the theory, The Grand Unified theory. So we will probably ever be able to test String Theory too.

A brain can forget something when that something isn't used anymore and it's quite random when exactly something is forgotten.

-With this i mean unimportant or things you haven't thought of in a very long time

 

[PurplePoot]

You already carry the attitude. And already use the line in other ways.

"Innaccurate, irrelevant, wrong"

Generally because I can and do justify it, or it's so obvious (and everyone else but you seems to recognize this) that it's a waste of breath to.

Just because you can say my analogy isn't right...doesn't mean it is wrong.

Thanks for that. You made an analogy, gave it no backing, and then stated it as if it was a fact.

A picture is worth a thousand words. I try to work with pictures, even if I have to make one in the mind. It helps make a relevant point.

Or apparently irrelevant one.

But you are a smart ass apparently.

That took you long enough.

 

[DocDude]

i wont read everything written by now, but ill write what i think:

a random thing is a thing that is not effected by anything and can NEVER be preditced.

is there something in our reality that is completly indepented, uneffected and can never be predicted? i think not.

if there is something random in our reality it means that if we'll replay a moment in the past the events will evolve diffrently, and i dont think its possible (and also time-traveling to the past is not possible).

so everything happens (including our choices) is not random, but the result of cicromctences (this word must be so misspelld XD).

now if there is an entintity that knows all the information in the universe, it can predict the future.

if there is an entintity that controls the "random" things in the universe it can control and shape the future.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Wait, DocDude has a good point.

Everything is determined by something else, so really, nothing is purely random... so life is somewhat predetermined? Thing is, that doesn't change anything in anyone's life.

 

[Elenai]

Everything is determined by something else, so really, nothing is purely random... so life is somewhat predetermined? Thing is, that doesn't change anything in anyone's life.

Qft!

Generally because I can and do justify it, or it's so obvious (and everyone else but you seems to recognize this) that it's a waste of breath to.

Or apparently irrelevant one.

^ point proven ^

Thanks for that. You made an analogy, gave it no backing, and then stated it as if it was a fact.

I didn't state it as fact, no more than you state half of your 'arguments' as fact yourself...but...Since you've opened that little can of hypocrisy

"Even the wisest do not see all ends of the road"

Tell me...are you omniscient? (psst, the answer is no )

"It is a road none the less"

Time moves forward yes? Time is a line? (or else, it is like a zipper)

----------(this is a line called "the past looks rather much like a road)--------< (this little fork (teh zippah!) is called the present where *GASP* choices are made)

And based on what ever choice is made...*gasp again* we go forward on a line.

A road...

Seems that what I've observed is pretty much fact (or atleast observably near to, or at the least quite acceptable as a theory or hypothesis, enough to make a valid point), so as such my analogy stands...whether you dislike my argument or not because it would seem that I did indeed back it up, and if you bothered to read my post you just might catch the glimpses of it where I paraphrased and simplified it, and then posted, but no, you are too busy trying to hoity toit about with the 'air of intelligence' instead of taking a big wiff of it, and sniffing some good old fashioned reality...

 

[Joss]

Do I believe in God? Possibly.

Do I believe in the theory of evolution? Possibly.

I'm an agnostic. Either route to me seems rather plausible, and then again implausible.

So how about this? We get the hell away from religion and evolution, and return to predetermination. Now, if you're theory involves those things, by all means, state them! But DO NOT get into a huge and unecessary debate on which of those two things exists or not.

Now on to my theory:

I"ll just state where I stand before I get into my arguement: I do not believe in predetermination. This is mainly due to the pure randomness of the situation. Did anyone out there plan that I would make this exact post at this exact time in this exact room in this exact house in this exact state in this exact country on this exact continent on this exact world in this exact solar system i nthis exact galaxy i nthis exact universe i nthis exact dimension of space and time? Hell if I know, and I dotn believe ANY of you have actually represented a plausible arguement that can be proven or disproven. Where is your 'God'? How do you know the 'God' you worship is the true 'God'? Where is your primordial ooze in a bottle? And that is where I stand.

 

[Gilles]

So life is a zipper? Using those quotes and strange analogies does not prove, or even provide a good argument, Elenai. You just lose me in a bunch of airy philosophy.

Do I believe in God? Possibly.

Do I believe in the theory of evolution? Possibly.

I'm an agnostic. Either route to me seems rather plausible, and then again implausible.

So how about this? We get the hell away from religion and evolution, and return to predetermination. Now, if you're theory involves those things, by all means, state them! But DO NOT get into a huge and unecessary debate on which of those two things exists or not.

Now on to my theory:

I"ll just state where I stand before I get into my arguement: I do not believe in predetermination. This is mainly due to the pure randomness of the situation. Did anyone out there plan that I would make this exact post at this exact time in this exact room in this exact house in this exact state in this exact country on this exact continent on this exact world in this exact solar system i nthis exact galaxy i nthis exact universe i nthis exact dimension of space and time? Hell if I know, and I dotn believe ANY of you have actually represented a plausible arguement that can be proven or disproven. Where is your 'God'? How do you know the 'God' you worship is the true 'God'? Where is your primordial ooze in a bottle? And that is where I stand.

You realize you told people to stop discussing God, then went on to discuss God, right?

 

[DocDude]

if you think/know that life is prediterment or not is not changing your life anyway XD

anyway time and life is not going in a zigzag, cuz if it is it will just mean its getting equel in some points and its not.

its just this X and Y graph where X stands for the time and Y stand for the "value of reality".
X is going in a streight line for obvious reasons.
Y cant zigzag, becouse reality can be the same twice (that a disscotion of itself XD) so its a streight line too.

 

[Elenai]

Gilles...

Look at how a zipper is...

You pull the zip, and as you move 'forward' what was once 'two paths' becomes 'one road' and that is how time works...

In 'time/life' you have (lets just say two) choices, and as you move forward in time, you make choices, and your choices become meshed together into the past as one line set in stone.

Make sense now?

 

[HappyCockroach]

IMO that was a great comparison.

 

[Gilles]

Gilles...

Look at how a zipper is...

You pull the zip, and as you move 'forward' what was once 'two paths' becomes 'one road' and that is how time works...

In 'time/life' you have (lets just say two) choices, and as you move forward in time, you make choices, and your choices become meshed together into the past as one line set in stone.

Make sense now?

Yeah okay that makes some sense. But what does it have to do with anything? You made an analogy, then left it there. Why did you make the analogy in the first place?

You have to remember we can't read your thoughts, and you often seem to write things that you clearly understand, but there's something you are taking for granted that we don't know. Remember that your frame of reference (how you interpret your own words, or other people's words) is different from someone else's. Be careful to make sure you are being understood how you want to be understood.

Could be just me though.

 

[Hubcool]

Possibly one of the most stupid threads to come out of Off-Topic. Grats.

You just don't ask ridiculous questions like that on a forum.

Of course! Stupid, and it has so many pages!

What I say:

And to answer your question, no, life isn't predetermined. What makes it so? Our choices. Anything can change from the choices we made, our decisions aren't predertemined.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Of course! Stupid, and it has so many pages!

It's changed topic too much, and since there is no community mod online at the time, no one is cleaning it up or closing it.

 

[Gilles]

This thread might break the record for most reports without any moderator response.

 

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

You might want to try hiring another mod than Squiggy or Death (who really doesn't do much, does he?).

Oh, and this is my 3000th post. Please kill me.

 

[Joss]

Getting back to the topic here, I believe that predetermination is rather implausible, unless of course God has planned out our lives, if he/she exists. However, I rather dont like to inculde religion in my posts, as it is VERY!!!!!!!!!!!!! unecessary and quite pointless. Plus, it escalates. Getting even more on-topic: Predetermination could only exist if there were some force out there that either planned or created our lives and the events occuring within them beforehand. While I am slightly skeptical of this, hey, I'm an open minded guy; show me a reason to believe and I'll get back to you. Just dont involve religion, please. Religion is a tool used by people with a belief to show others their beliefs, which people who need somethign to believe in use to feel better about themselves and to explain things for them. Just for once, make an attempt to think on your own, without the aid of your Bible, or Koran, or physics book. Think with your brain and your heart, not the words of those who's beliefs you think sound the most believable. I'll be here.

 

[Deathcom3s]

This thread officially holds the record for the most reported posts, i think the reason for closing is apparent.

~Thread closed.

 

[Hakeem]

To whom it may concern, responses to posts in this thread have been posted in the following threads:
[THREAD]142024[/THREAD]
[THREAD]142025[/THREAD]
[THREAD]142026[/THREAD]

It's just typical that any serious discussion on online forums ends up as flaming.

Then report it.


I'm having altogether too much fun moderating this thread. I don't think I was able to clean it enough to reopen it, but it should look a lot cleaner now.