Favorite WC3 unit

[MasterHaosis]

Xonok, you should open that thread already, lets discuss that there.

For instance, a conclusion was that damage type are based on balance, not thematics.

Yeah I agree on that.

I wouldn't really judge culture of neutral races based of creep stats as abilities are copies of four main races. I am willing to bet they can use the most "common" arcane magic anyway and necromancy.

Yeah. You are right that.
I was just looking that as some orientation because you do not expect from priest to use raise dead or so.
Anyway, I do not know how many type of magics there are: Arane,Holy,Natural,Unholy/Necromancy,Demonic,Shamanic,Voodoo....
So creeps have to use one of those.

Chaos/Fel orcs are campaign units so of course they break rules.

No, no. Thats where misunderstand is. You are talking about melee, I am talking about logic in general.
You know, campaigns are explained stuff, how what become, who sided with who, who got power etc etc... Point of campaign aside from fun is to explain how things work. logics are pretty much shown and explained in campaigns.
Thats why WOW wiki uses explanations from WC3 campaigns, Manual of Monsters and and from WOW. melee is just gameplay, clash one vs one, or group vs group. It does not explain for example why do you have blue trolls and Taurens with orcs. But if you play campaign you will see, etc etc..

In reality, all rules apply to both you and me, we all need to eat to survive, we all age and die. There is no exception for that, if you are under some campaign (go to another country, business, war, fly to moon), that some rule
will change. No changing rules.
Same here, something cannot be different just because it comes from campaign. That if proof that melee games do not follow logics and sense, but balance. And it should. But definitively not following their own logics which they created.

But anyway difference between them and undead is that undead bodies are held together by magic while chaos/fel orcs have their own weapons empowered. Then again Chaos defies logic by definition so chaos is chaotic.

Chaos/Fel Orcs are explained to be empowered by demonic energies, from demonic blood. When Orc drink demonic blood (or any units which does that or is affected much with fel energy) can get transformation, getting red skin, getting bigger, getting spikes, and getting stronger. And in Orcs cae, they got chaos damage. So they use axes, but their damage is not delivered directly by pierce, their damage is delivered from advanced physical strength which comes from demonic blood/fel energy itself. So, they are empowered by it all time, forever. Until, like in special Grom's case, can be barely cured. Bond with demonic energy is connected for all time, it gives them all power and physical strength. Thats why in Wc3 originally fel beasts, Infernal and doom guards have chaos damage, alongisde with fel orcs. later all powerful creeps (from level 7 to up) got chaos damage (for balance reasons of course).
But according to those logics, all magical enhanced creatures should get magical attack, whenever it comes from long shoots or melee damage, if magic empowers them for all time.

As for hero well guess hero having hero attack is higher priority than chaos. There isn't that much difference between those attack.

Exactly. But I am talking again about logic, not balance. For balance you are right, but for logic, if all orcs whose drank demonic blood could got chaos damage, that hero should get too. he does not have logical reasons or obstacles to have hero damage. except balance. But yet again, Chaos BladeMaster is campaign unit, so there is nothing much to balance.

I admit they do break logic but I still say they follow it when it suits them and that they aren't random. Though Skeletal Mage really could have been Skeleton Archer.

This is what I tried to explain. Those are leftover because of balance issues, not logic. In campaigns they probably would not get changed, but maybe in melee they create some balance issuea, thats why they are left like that.

About Skeletal Mages. personally I agree with you. I would also like to have skeleton archer than mage.
I think that mages cannot be possesed. KelThuzad used them to save Arthas from banshees, as Banshee could not posses them, so Mages killed all of them.
But I did not test that, I speak freely, maybe as summoned units they cannot be possessed. I am sure that you could possessed creep Skeletal Warriors and Archers.

 

[VeljkoM]

Yeah. You are right that.
I was just looking that as some orientation because you do not expect from priest to use raise dead or so.
Anyway, I do not know how many type of magics there are: Arane,Holy,Natural,Unholy/Necromancy,Demonic,Shamanic,Voodoo....
So creeps have to use one of those.

Actually Arcane is the most basic form of magic and Necromancyis part of Arcane and not independent magic. Fel also is kinda sort of Arcane too but unstable and more powerful. No such thing as Unholy exactly instead there is "shadow" which is alternative Light used by forsaken and shadow priests. Shamanism and Druidism are related and aren't exactly magic and are more religion. Voodoo is odd as it is "Holy" (they have priests) but power itself comes from Loa...

Regarding Nerubians I believe they are users of Arcane (with Necromancy) as they don't worship anything anymore. No Light, Ancestors (Shamanism), Nature (Druidism), Loa (Voodoo) or Demons (Chaos/Fel).

*Fel Orc Stuff*

You are right but there is one thing to mention. Fel empowerment is not same as necromancy. While Fel infused creatures are empowered (magic is ammo sort to speak), dead creatures are animated (fueled). Fel magic is destructive and chaotic, but necromancy is about manipulation of souls and doesn't have effect when used on inanimate object unless you are going to stuck a soul in it. What I am saying being empowered by Chaos (which by its own very nature literally does not follow any rules) is not same as being Undead.

Exactly. But I am talking again about logic, not balance. For balance you are right, but for logic, if all orcs whose drank demonic blood could got chaos damage, that hero should get too. he does not have logical reasons or obstacles to have hero damage. except balance. But yet again, Chaos BladeMaster is campaign unit, so there is nothing much to balance.

Well was sure in RoC all Chaos Heroes had chaos as there was no Hero Attack. In TFT being Hero seems to be stronger than fel magic perhaps?

This is what I tried to explain. Those are leftover because of balance issues, not logic. In campaigns they probably would not get changed, but maybe in melee they create some balance issuea, thats why they are left like that.

About Skeletal Mages. personally I agree with you. I would also like to have skeleton archer than mage.
I think that mages cannot be possesed. KelThuzad used them to save Arthas from banshees, as Banshee could not posses them, so Mages killed all of them.
But I did not test that, I speak freely, maybe as summoned units they cannot be possessed. I am sure that you could possessed creep Skeletal Warriors and Archers.

Yeah think that in gameplay summoned units can't be possessed. But from story perspective I am unsure if undead can be possessed as it is already possessed corpse or automaton moved by magic.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Oh man, I am glad to talk to you, we actually exchange lot of opinions and knowledge. I learned some things which I did not know!

Actually Arcane is the most basic form of magic and Necromancyis part of Arcane and not independent magic. Fel also is kinda sort of Arcane too but unstable and more powerful. No such thing as Unholy exactly instead there is "shadow" which is alternative Light used by forsaken and shadow priests. Shamanism and Druidism are related and aren't exactly magic and are more religion. Voodoo is odd as it is "Holy" (they have priests) but power itself comes from Loa...

Yes yesh, sorry if I confused you with that.
I did not mean exactly holy and unholy as in Biblical meaning we all know.
I just meant that as some kind of classifications. This is Wc3 seprated universe from religion or Bible.
But still, they connected only apperance with religious thing. For example Demons indeed look like we all know for whole life: most of them are traditionally red skinned, have fangs, horns, red|yellow|green eyes, green flames, they have dark magics etc etc... while human priests and paladins are using power of light and such (assuming bilibcal fight between good and evil), so everything which we know is here, except god, angels, hell and all those myths, truths whatever you call it. Demons here are from Outland, another dimension, planet. that nether realm.
Thats why I made just blank classifications regarding it:
Holy/Light Magic - heal, dispel magic, slow, invisibility (although evil can be invisible too), Holy Light, Divine shield, ressurection... (which uses elves and humans)
Shamanic/Voodo abilities which are used by Horde are Big bad voodo, Voodo spirits, hexx, healing waves, healing wards, purge, lightning shield etc etc...
Natural abilities are used by nigh elves such as moon, mana abilities, roars, rejuvenation, cyclone, force of nature, entagling roots, trannquality ...
Unholy/Undead magics are such as necromancy, sacrifices, curse, unholy frenzy, death coil, death pact, unholy aura, cripple, dark ritual, death and decay, vampiric aura, life drain, mind control etc etc...
Demoni/Fel abilities such as cripple, sleep, firebolts, parasites, unholy freenzy, , finger of pain, unholy aura, vampiric aura, howl of terror, mana burn, devour magic, life drain ,shadow strike, charm, cripple, rain of fire etc etc...

So you see, names are implicates what is unholy/holy/natural magic. nevermind that there is no strict classifications of that, but names of spells implicates (holy light, ressurection, unholy aura, unholy freenzy, tranquility, force of nature).... those names are actually set by blizzard.

No Light, Ancestors (Shamanism), Nature (Druidism), Loa (Voodoo) or Demons (Chaos/Fel).

Oh yes, as forgot that shamanism is ancestors, such as Taurens are using with those Ancestor spirits, spirit links, descendents.....

You are right but there is one thing to mention. Fel empowerment is not same as necromancy. While Fel infused creatures are empowered (magic is ammo sort to speak), dead creatures are animated (fueled). Fel magic is destructive and chaotic, but necromancy is about manipulation of souls and doesn't have effect when used on inanimate object unless you are going to stuck a soul in it. What I am saying being empowered by Chaos (which by its own very nature literally does not follow any rules) is not same as being Undead.

Oh I know that. Sorry if I confused you. I though just to give you example that fel energies are empowering orcs in similar way how necromancy can be used to empower dead and give them energy. Idid not mean that it is same, but its similiar dark energy. Remember that many abilities are shared between undead and demons (cripple, unholy frenzy, unholy aura, devour magic, charm, life drain, silence, curse, vampiric aura, frost armor, death coil...), and dreadlords as demons are undead heroes too. Actually demons are rulers of burning legion and created undeads, even using them (archimonde and others), so created not just undead from humans, but corrupting other races, night elves to satyrs and corrupted treants, Orcs into fel orcs etc etc....
So I just gave example of strong connectivity, of course that you are right, empowered by Chaos is not same as being Undead.
But do not forget that demons are experts for manipulations.
Those Sucubbus have charm abilities too.

About Undeads, I previously wrote wall of text but I removed it, because you would not read that. I will write, but not now, this post is already long.
But I noticed some things regarding that necromancy cause there are two ways of that, which I will explain further.

Well was sure in RoC all Chaos Heroes had chaos as there was no Hero Attack. In TFT being Hero seems to be stronger than fel magic perhaps?

No. Fel is always upgrade to current state. So if hero is strong, he got even more damage converting to chaos. So its not just matter if chaos is better than hero attack or vice versa, it is matter that chaos energy gives him additional strenght. Bonus to current.
Remember that when Grom hellscresm got converted from green to red orc, he got increased everything, in same level.
Also, just checked stuck WE settings (that may vary from map to map). Both Chaos Hellscream and Fel Blademaster have same stats, except damage.Blademaster has 25-47 hero damage, Hellscream has 37-59 Chaos.
Also, Chaos seems little better than Hero, for Hero damage it says ,,Hero attacks do reduced damage to Fortified armor", For Chaos it says ,,Chaos damage to full damage to all armor types" so against structures, chaos seems better.

Yeah think that in gameplay summoned units can't be possessed. But from story perspective I am unsure if undead can be possessed as it is already possessed corpse or automaton moved by magic.

That is also questionable. Because there are few types of undead. You know, someone has corrupted soul, or mind controlled or such... Someone has implanted soul, or some energy, so it can be possible to override that with same death magic such as mind control or possesion, but in other hand you are right. That is also subject of further dicussion

 

[VeljkoM]

Oh yes it is fun even though we have totally derailed the thread from the main topic.

Yes yesh, sorry if I confused you with that.
I did not mean exactly holy and unholy as in Biblical meaning we all know.
I just meant that as some kind of classifications. This is Wc3 seprated universe from religion or Bible.
But still, they connected only apperance with religious thing. For example Demons indeed look like we all know for whole life: most of them are traditionally red skinned, have fangs, horns, red|yellow|green eyes, green flames, they have dark magics etc etc... while human priests and paladins are using power of light and such (assuming bilibcal fight between good and evil), so everything which we know is here, except god, angels, hell and all those myths, truths whatever you call it. Demons here are from Outland, another dimension, planet. that nether realm.
Thats why I made just blank classifications regarding it:
Holy/Light Magic - heal, dispel magic, slow, invisibility (although evil can be invisible too), Holy Light, Divine shield, ressurection... (which uses elves and humans)
Shamanic/Voodo abilities which are used by Horde are Big bad voodo, Voodo spirits, hexx, healing waves, healing wards, purge, lightning shield etc etc...
Natural abilities are used by nigh elves such as moon, mana abilities, roars, rejuvenation, cyclone, force of nature, entagling roots, trannquality ...
Unholy/Undead magics are such as necromancy, sacrifices, curse, unholy frenzy, death coil, death pact, unholy aura, cripple, dark ritual, death and decay, vampiric aura, life drain, mind control etc etc...
Demoni/Fel abilities such as cripple, sleep, firebolts, parasites, unholy freenzy, , finger of pain, unholy aura, vampiric aura, howl of terror, mana burn, devour magic, life drain ,shadow strike, charm, cripple, rain of fire etc etc...

So you see, names are implicates what is unholy/holy/natural magic. nevermind that there is no strict classifications of that, but names of spells implicates (holy light, ressurection, unholy aura, unholy freenzy, tranquility, force of nature).... those names are actually set by blizzard.

Well to be fair in Wc1 and Wc2 they were Christians, and heck in WoW they have Crusaders, because nobody understands what that word means. God used to be there but now is just ambiguous "Light", you can see Paladin summoning angel to resurrect (and in wow I guess Spirit Healers are angels too). And there were quite few references to hell. Demons though are not actually demons and are now just aliens (bleh) from planets absorbed by Twisted Nether, though not from Outland as that was regular planet before Ner'zhul blew it up. Guess Sargeras can still be Lucifer as he is fallen titan... but regarding titans the more is revealed the less I want to know about them. Still actually you won't find in actual bible that description of Demons. Whole red skin/horns/flames etc are kinda recent re-imagination.

But anyway your classification isn't wrong except that Sorceresses and Archmage abilities are arcane and not Holy Light (High Elves and Dalaran Mages are not Holy Light users). But in a way arcane (vanilla magic), necromancy and fel (Demon Hunters and "good" Warlocks) can be used by anyone as they aren't based on faith while faith based magic doesn't really come from the user but from the worshiped being. That's why vanilla magic can be shared around even if spells get different names.

Oh I know that. Sorry if I confused you. I though just to give you example that fel energies are empowering orcs in similar way how necromancy can be used to empower dead and give them energy. Idid not mean that it is same, but its similiar dark energy. Remember that many abilities are shared between undead and demons (cripple, unholy frenzy, unholy aura, devour magic, charm, life drain, silence, curse, vampiric aura, frost armor, death coil...), and dreadlords as demons are undead heroes too. Actually demons are rulers of burning legion and created undeads, even using them (archimonde and others), so created not just undead from humans, but corrupting other races, night elves to satyrs and corrupted treants, Orcs into fel orcs etc etc....
So I just gave example of strong connectivity, of course that you are right, empowered by Chaos is not same as being Undead.
But do not forget that demons are experts for manipulations.
Those Sucubbus have charm abilities too.

I still wouldn't call necromancy and fel similar since fel empowers with raw, unstable and destructive power while necromancy is more strict and precise. The sharing between undead and demons is because people can use several types of magic. Like Lich who as former orc warlocks naturally know how to cast fel magic, as undead can cast necromancy and are capable of vanilla magic (all that ice magic). Doesn't help that Wc3 undead simply inherited Wc1/2 Orc abilities. Necromancy itself simply doesn't work like Fel but confusion comes from undead ability to use both.

No. Fel is always upgrade to current state. So if hero is strong, he got even more damage converting to chaos. So its not just matter if chaos is better than hero attack or vice versa, it is matter that chaos energy gives him additional strenght. Bonus to current.
Remember that when Grom hellscresm got converted from green to red orc, he got increased everything, in same level.
Also, just checked stuck WE settings (that may vary from map to map). Both Chaos Hellscream and Fel Blademaster have same stats, except damage.Blademaster has 25-47 hero damage, Hellscream has 37-59 Chaos.
Also, Chaos seems little better than Hero, for Hero damage it says ,,Hero attacks do reduced damage to Fortified armor", For Chaos it says ,,Chaos damage to full damage to all armor types" so against structures, chaos seems better.

But problem is that RoC did not have Hero attack at all. In TFT all heroes get Hero attack with no exceptions. And maybe that blademaster was too old before he became Fel Orc?

That is also questionable. Because there are few types of undead. You know, someone has corrupted soul, or mind controlled or such... Someone has implanted soul, or some energy, so it can be possible to override that with same death magic such as mind control or possesion, but in other hand you are right. That is also subject of further dicussion

Would be easier if warcraft undead were consistent. As far as I know maybe Banshees can possess objects too and aren't limited to sentient bodies. Traditionally (though not in warcraft) the only real sentient undead are Liches but they should be too powerful to control.

 

[MasterHaosis]

VeljkoM,
lets keep working (I will call Shar Dundred to get back to topic too):

Well to be fair in Wc1 and Wc2 they were Christians, and heck in WoW they have Crusaders, because nobody understands what that word means. God used to be there but now is just ambiguous "Light", you can see Paladin summoning angel to resurrect (and in wow I guess Spirit Healers are angels too).

I do not know about Wc1 or 2 so I assume you know that better.
But yes I forgot to mention that there is angel when you ressurect 6 fallen units.
That is obviosly to different that holy ability from necromancy, where they revive/reanimate corpses by unholy magic.
Obvously, that is shown that only ,,onaj odozgo" can get back to life someone, and has given such ability to paladins, priests etc etc... (by sending Angel of course)
Undeads or demons have no chance to do that.

And there were quite few references to hell. Demons though are not actually demons and are now just aliens (bleh) from planets absorbed by Twisted Nether, though not from Outland as that was regular planet before Ner'zhul blew it up.

Of course that demons are not from hell. Those are just aliens as you said from another planet/dimension.
But Outland was big planet Draenor which was destroyed by opening portals. They tore planet apart. But still, they chose to send Demons here to be forever. Burning Legion had bases there just after explosion. Magtheridon called massive demons from twisting nether into outland.
Actually Outland (And whole Dreaneor) are small part of Twisting Nether itself.
LIke our planet in our solar system.

Guess Sargeras can still be Lucifer as he is fallen titan... but regarding titans the more is revealed the less I want to know about them.

Yeah, I understand your pain. This is upgrading story to story which is supposed to be upgrade on original story haha.

Still actually you won't find in actual bible that description of Demons. Whole red skin/horns/flames etc are kinda recent re-imagination.

I do not know really, but they do not differ that much from our church's view anyway. I remember in our churches that devil (or his spawns) are painted in icons as black creatures with tail, fangs and horns. So pretty much similar (but in some church's books they are painted as red too).

But anyway your classification isn't wrong except that Sorceresses and Archmage abilities are arcane and not Holy Light (High Elves and Dalaran Mages are not Holy Light users).

Oh yeah, I forgot that. I wonder about priests, as humans have same priests as well (same model different skin, and same abilities).

But in a way arcane (vanilla magic), necromancy and fel (Demon Hunters and "good" Warlocks) can be used by anyone as they aren't based on faith while faith based magic doesn't really come from the user but from the worshiped being.

of course that they are not based on faith. They are only named by faith so we can distract what is supposed to be ,,god" and what is ,,bad" magic.

That's why vanilla magic can be shared around even if spells get different names.

But no, most of them can be shared and combined, but there are still restriction.
Holy light heals alive and damages undead. Arthas as paladin could actually use that, But when he go converted to Undead as Death Knight, he got completelydifferent abilities which are total oposite from paladins and their holy abilities. he cannot use anymore holy light as he is already Undead, he can use death coil to heal dead and damage alive, as paladins cannot use Death Coils. Undeads and Demons as said previously, cannot use Ressurection, to bring that Angel. They must use animate dead or necromancy. Some abilities by their nature cannot be stackable or mixed to one owner/spellcaster.
Illidan also lose as natural abilities from nigh elves (mana burn is used by demons, immolation is demonic flame and he transforms into demon), evasion is only psychical ability, not magical. He also got wings and horns as demon.
Remember when you had orc Shamans, and after drank demonic blood, all shamans got replaced for Fel Warlocks. And it is clearly said by hint that you can now train warlocks instead of shamans and they have different abilities.
So, in some cases definitively abilities cannot be shared.
Sure that you still have point. Creeps have mostly shared abilities from various races, although some logic is still followed.

I still wouldn't call necromancy and fel similar since fel empowers with raw, unstable and destructive power while necromancy is more strict and precise.

True that, but also that may be because those are designed to work like that.
For example, demonic mana burn is precise, because it hits one target, although rain of fire is not precise against targets as targets may move.
So two different purposes. Necromancy is designed like that. Although fel/demonic is more older and chaotic by itself nature, necromancy is artifically created, additionally.

The sharing between undead and demons is because people can use several types of magic. Like Lich who as former orc warlocks naturally know how to cast fel magic, as undead can cast necromancy and are capable of vanilla magic (all that ice magic).

yes that is also one of reasons. But as you said they CAN USE several types of magic, but cannot mix all. Only similar or such, as I wrote in previous quotes. Undeads and demons would probably like to have Divine Shield, but perhaps cannot (although I am not sure completely but haven't seen nobody aside from Bandit Lord which is human to use that).

Doesn't help that Wc3 undead simply inherited Wc1/2 Orc abilities. Necromancy itself simply doesn't work like Fel but confusion comes from undead ability to use both.

Yeah, but this is because Undeads did not exist in Wc1/2. So Orcs were there ,,bad side". You always have good and bad. Now since introduction of Demons and Undeads in wc3 whose are categorized as bad guys, orcs are turned to be neutral side (Thrall's horde is good, but there are still leftover clans who worship demons). So current Wc3 orcs do not have anything common with demons or Undeads. No single shared ability as they are turned to ancestal/shamanic/vodoo (trolls)

But problem is that RoC did not have Hero attack at all. In TFT all heroes get Hero attack with no exceptions.

Maybe that was reason but that should be explained as previosly it is stated that all orcs get chaos damage with no exceptions, same counts for heroes such as Hellscream and others used by fel orcs.
You remmeber that Magtheridon is using both Blademaster and Hellscreams variations in froyen throne. Still, hellscream's variations did not use Hero damage, they are leftover with chaos, but blademaster uses hero attack.
Either hero or chaos should be use, since both are logical, but cannot use both in same times since it breaks both of logics (first logic is that all orcs including heroes get chaos damage, second logic is that all heroes get hero damage).

And maybe that blademaster was too old before he became Fel Orc?

No, that does not count, or affect in any way. Since it is magicall word, and for them, as older you are stronger, that does not apply.
Also ,remember that Blademaster has white hair and beard assuming that he is old, but Chaos version got black hear and beard assuming that it even makes him younger.

Would be easier if warcraft undead were consistent. As far as I know maybe Banshees can possess objects too and aren't limited to sentient bodies.

Banshee cannot posses objects.
,,Stuns a target unit and the Banshee for 4 seconds, during which the Banshee takes extra damage from attacks. She then displaces the soul of the enemy, giving you permanent control of it, but destroying the caster's body. Possession cannot be used on flying units, Heroes, or creeps above level 5."
She can only posses units with those imitations of course.
I am not sure about infernal machines, but those are not counter as mechanical units, they are empowered by soul, corrupted ones, so maybe Banshee can posses them too. i haven't check that.

Traditionally (though not in warcraft) the only real sentient undead are Liches but they should be too powerful to control.

And hard to revive. They had to collect bones of some king, and revive them at some source of high power such as sun well.

 

[Footman16]

Favourite unit - Footman of course.

 

[VeljkoM]

I do not know about Wc1 or 2 so I assume you know that better.
But yes I forgot to mention that there is angel when you ressurect 6 fallen units.
That is obviosly to different that holy ability from necromancy, where they revive/reanimate corpses by unholy magic.
Obvously, that is shown that only ,,onaj odozgo" can get back to life someone, and has given such ability to paladins, priests etc etc... (by sending Angel of course)
Undeads or demons have no chance to do that.

Demons can't use holy light to resurrect but I think some other magic could be used in some way to get similar results. Undead can just use necromancy. Of course gameplay and story are separated since it would be unfair to use necromancy to keep undead alive forever. Actually in story you can't really kill undead like in game anyway. I also actually believe that Holy Light resurrection is just very strong healing that can bring recently dead back to life or else there wouldn't be death in Warcraft ever again.

Of course that demons are not from hell. Those are just aliens as you said from another planet/dimension.
But Outland was big planet Draenor which was destroyed by opening portals. They tore planet apart. But still, they chose to send Demons here to be forever. Burning Legion had bases there just after explosion. Magtheridon called massive demons from twisting nether into outland.
Actually Outland (And whole Dreaneor) are small part of Twisting Nether itself.
LIke our planet in our solar system.

Well originally they were from hell but yeah you are right. And yes you are right but I am just saying Outland is recent addition and demons just came. And since Illidan closed the portals they stopped coming.

Yeah, I understand your pain. This is upgrading story to story which is supposed to be upgrade on original story haha.

I don't mind upgrades of story exactly (I do hate changes). I hate that Titans are sci-fi ancient astronauts that give life to metal and rock.

Oh yeah, I forgot that. I wonder about priests, as humans have same priests as well (same model different skin, and same abilities).

High Elf priests seem to be exception rather than standard for high elves. Humans have way more priests.

of course that they are not based on faith. They are only named by faith so we can distract what is supposed to be ,,god" and what is ,,bad" magic.

Well Arcane is not based on faith but it isn't good or evil it is just magic. Necromancy too isn't evil itself but users are. Fel magic is evil as far as we care as it is basically unstable radioactive magic. Magic isn't really good or bad really it is a tool, though sources can be considered good (light) or evil (demons ";..;").

But no, most of them can be shared and combined, but there are still restriction.
Holy light heals alive and damages undead. Arthas as paladin could actually use that, But when he go converted to Undead as Death Knight, he got completelydifferent abilities which are total oposite from paladins and their holy abilities. he cannot use anymore holy light as he is already Undead, he can use death coil to heal dead and damage alive, as paladins cannot use Death Coils. Undeads and Demons as said previously, cannot use Ressurection, to bring that Angel. They must use animate dead or necromancy. Some abilities by their nature cannot be stackable or mixed to one owner/spellcaster.
Illidan also lose as natural abilities from nigh elves (mana burn is used by demons, immolation is demonic flame and he transforms into demon), evasion is only psychical ability, not magical. He also got wings and horns as demon.
Remember when you had orc Shamans, and after drank demonic blood, all shamans got replaced for Fel Warlocks. And it is clearly said by hint that you can now train warlocks instead of shamans and they have different abilities.
So, in some cases definitively abilities cannot be shared.
Sure that you still have point. Creeps have mostly shared abilities from various races, although some logic is still followed.

Undead, Demons and corrupted races can't at all use light. Though Wc3 Death Knights are the only opposite to Paladins, in other games and in story Death Knights are quite capable magic users. Mostly Necromancy of course. I am trying to avoid mentioning but Forsaken can use bastard version of light despite being undead.

Actually Illidan was never druid to begin with, he used arcane magic like highborn and then switched to Fel magic as he believed it was more powerful (books have been written about that emo >>). Background regarding Demon Hunters is that they are intentionally using Fel Magic against demons, they are fighting fire with fire. Curiously for some reason they end up insane.

Warlocks replacing Shamans is strange but basically they (again) rejected ancestors and grasped magic for themselves since shamanism is about asking to borrow magic while warlocks want to own magic. There isn't really much that can be shared or combined in their case as they just chose to use magic differently. And also Bloodlust is really more of fel ability than shamanism, first to use bloodlust casters in games were Ogre Magi anyway created from perversion of High Elf sacred stones (druid magic) and empowering Ogres with magic.

True that, but also that may be because those are designed to work like that.
For example, demonic mana burn is precise, because it hits one target, although rain of fire is not precise against targets as targets may move.
So two different purposes. Necromancy is designed like that. Although fel/demonic is more older and chaotic by itself nature, necromancy is artifically created, additionally.

It would be precise if it drained mana but instead fel magic makes it unstable and destroys it. Necromancy itself lacks chaotic nature of fel magic and results are stable. Neither is "older" as they are both magic just used in different ways.

yes that is also one of reasons. But as you said they CAN USE several types of magic, but cannot mix all. Only similar or such, as I wrote in previous quotes. Undeads and demons would probably like to have Divine Shield, but perhaps cannot (although I am not sure completely but haven't seen nobody aside from Bandit Lord which is human to use that).

Vanilla Arcane magic can be mixed with anything really. Demons can't have Divine Shield but they can have Mana shield that replaces light magic with arcane magic. Also I think that Makrura creeps get divine shield and devotion aura, makes you wonder?

Yeah, but this is because Undeads did not exist in Wc1/2. So Orcs were there ,,bad side". You always have good and bad. Now since introduction of Demons and Undeads in wc3 whose are categorized as bad guys, orcs are turned to be neutral side (Thrall's horde is good, but there are still leftover clans who worship demons). So current Wc3 orcs do not have anything common with demons or Undeads. No single shared ability as they are turned to ancestal/shamanic/vodoo (trolls)

Not "not exist", they were part of orcs. Necrolytes and Death Knights were members of the Horde. Clans that don't listen Thrall still use Necromancy, Fel powers and even dragons. In wc3 Undead just got independant.

Maybe that was reason but that should be explained as previosly it is stated that all orcs get chaos damage with no exceptions, same counts for heroes such as Hellscream and others used by fel orcs.
You remmeber that Magtheridon is using both Blademaster and Hellscreams variations in froyen throne. Still, hellscream's variations did not use Hero damage, they are leftover with chaos, but blademaster uses hero attack.
Either hero or chaos should be use, since both are logical, but cannot use both in same times since it breaks both of logics (first logic is that all orcs including heroes get chaos damage, second logic is that all heroes get hero damage).

Well I can either accept defeat or say blizzard made a mistake or retcon. <=D

Banshee cannot posses objects.
,,Stuns a target unit and the Banshee for 4 seconds, during which the Banshee takes extra damage from attacks. She then displaces the soul of the enemy, giving you permanent control of it, but destroying the caster's body. Possession cannot be used on flying units, Heroes, or creeps above level 5."
She can only posses units with those imitations of course.
I am not sure about infernal machines, but those are not counter as mechanical units, they are empowered by soul, corrupted ones, so maybe Banshee can posses them too. i haven't check that.

Yeah but that is gameplay mechanic, in story I don't see why you can't put soul in object (like how frostmourne works). But anyway I still don't see why undead even have soul since only that would explain banshee being able to possess undead.

And hard to revive. They had to collect bones of some king, and revive them at some source of high power such as sun well.

Actually traditionally to revive Lich you just wait for them to regenerate in phylactery. What you are talking about is creating one special Lich. Also they dropped the ashes of king Terenas, they just needed an urn to hold ashes of Kel'Thuzad.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guess what I am trying to say that all magic is actually same thing. Just that sources and the philosophy about (ab)use are different but that purest (and oldest) form of magic is Arcane.

Also we seriously need a separate thread for our discussion. We stopped talking about Doom Guard pages ago.

 

[Xarwin]

Frost Wyrms of course.
I also liked the destroyers a lot.

No anti air? GG U!

 

[MasterHaosis]

Xarwin, what for did you used Destroyers mostly?

Footman16, , haha yeah it is obvious because your name is foorman and you have him on avatar.

Demons can't use holy light to resurrect but I think some other magic could be used in some way to get similar results. Undead can just use necromancy. Of course gameplay and story are separated since it would be unfair to use necromancy to keep undead alive forever. Actually in story you can't really kill undead like in game anyway.

Well, you are right. Demons could use something different but similar.
I do not know what. But they seem to have very big advantage to summon new demons via various portals or spells everywhere.

I also actually believe that Holy Light resurrection is just very strong healing that can bring recently dead back to life or else there wouldn't be death in Warcraft ever again.

But when you kill them, they all left corpse.
If you have ability to revive something either with holy revive or necromancy that does not necessary mean that there would not be death in wc3.
Still, specific units/stuff can ressurect/revive other units... Those reviving systems have limitations (needs lot of mana, micromanagments, big cooldown etc...those corpses does not last forever etc etc..). So some units can get managed to be revived, but mostly not.

Well originally they were from hell but yeah you are right. And yes you are right but I am just saying Outland is recent addition and demons just came. And since Illidan closed the portals they stopped coming.

Ah that.
Yes, but on barrens for example, all races are there, such as one continent. And they keep reproducing themselves, for example centaurs, quillboars etc etc...
So demons whose are left in Outland may also reproduce themselves. Plus, Outland is still planet fragments which are in Twisted Netherm which means that demons may arrive there in any time. They just need to land with transport or such. or fly.
Also, Illidan is using Magtheridon's blood to reproduce Fel Orcs. Also, not all demonic gates are closed. Some are opened somewhere, it is said in WOW and some could be reopened. So, they are still most dangeious than any other race.

High Elf priests seem to be exception rather than standard for high elves. Humans have way more priests.

Yes. Creeps are actually human priests and mages.

Well Arcane is not based on faith but it isn't good or evil it is just magic. Necromancy too isn't evil itself but users are.

Well gun is not bad by itself, humans are whose decide to use it and shoot or kill another humans.
Obviously that magics are not good or bad, but they are designed so good or bad people would use it. So, we made sub separation of magic by it's users.

Fel magic is evil as far as we care as it is basically unstable radioactive magic. Magic isn't really good or bad really it is a tool, though sources can be considered good (light) or evil (demons ";..;").

Nuke is tool too
Tool for mass destruction therefore cannot be good in any way.
S magics indeed can be bad or good because some are designed to damage, kill others in very big numbers. Although some magic can be good such as to heal and support others. For example, Undead healing is not bad because it heals themselves and cannot harm others (aside from death coil).
So theoretically, every race has its own good or bad magics, depends of what those are supposed to do. But for sure that users are good or bad.
I do not know exactly how fel is unstable, since all fel corrupted users are controlled well precisely without exceptions. They serve demons.
Corruption by itself can be unstable (corrupted crazed fulborgs) whose were sick of that defiled fountain. Also those spiders whose are grown due to corruption and many other creatures turned mad.

Undead, Demons and corrupted races can't at all use light. Though Wc3 Death Knights are the only opposite to Paladins, in other games and in story Death Knights are quite capable magic users. Mostly Necromancy of course. I am trying to avoid mentioning but Forsaken can use bastard version of light despite being undead.

Yeah. Those are specific cases which I did not have time to mention and explain. Death Knights are connected with Lich King, as everyone whose they kill and took souls. So as power of lich king fades away, so it fades to his death knight. that is how Sylvanas freed herself and formed Forsaken.
They use apotecary. They can revive corpse by some virus, much like zombies from movies, so they can become mindless, depend of how they are revived. Not necessery to be revived by magic.

Actually Illidan was never druid to begin with, he used arcane magic like highborn and then switched to Fel magic as he believed it was more powerful (books have been written about that emo >>). Background regarding Demon Hunters is that they are intentionally using Fel Magic against demons, they are fighting fire with fire. Curiously for some reason they end up insane.

But it is shown and explained that he is now classified as night elf demon, hybrid between night lf and demon.
Yes, I did not know about his previous abilities, but now they are demonic totally.
Also it is explained that if you live too long with demons and if you drink their blood or using their energies you become voilent and transformed.
Blood elves used siphon mana on demons, since they lost sun well, they needed alternate power of source, so they drained local demons, that started to transform them, They also got green eyes, started to mutate, even become new felblood elves.

Warlocks replacing Shamans is strange but basically they (again) rejected ancestors and grasped magic for themselves since shamanism is about asking to borrow magic while warlocks want to own magic. There isn't really much that can be shared or combined in their case as they just chose to use magic differently.

Yeah, but I do not know if Shaman can be shaman with fel energy.
They perhaps did not have choice but to accept those demonic abilities, since choice is already made by drink demonic blood.

And also Bloodlust is really more of fel ability than shamanism, first to use bloodlust casters in games were Ogre Magi anyway created from perversion of High Elf sacred stones (druid magic) and empowering Ogres with magic.

That is true, but it also depends of type of blood. That can be used as shamanic ability if bloodlust upgrades your own blood etc...
Fel bloodlust would be enhancing it with fel energies or demonic blood, or using blood from someone else. Shamanic bloodlust seems not using another's blood.

It would be precise if it drained mana but instead fel magic makes it unstable and destroys it.

That is subject of discussion. Drain mana serves for that. Such as life drain which sucubuss have. This is perhaps designed to be like that, to burn mana and life.

Necromancy itself lacks chaotic nature of fel magic and results are stable. Neither is "older" as they are both magic just used in different ways.

I do not know about that. Maybe you are right. I must check.

Vanilla Arcane magic can be mixed with anything really. Demons can't have Divine Shield but they can have Mana shield that replaces light magic with arcane magic.

Yes, Eredar warlocks have that. But also Naga witch, and that Faceless unit level 8. So you have some point, it is alternate but not direct oposite to divine shield. Demons could have something specific. LIke Unholy/Death/Hell/Fire shield

Also I think that Makrura creeps get divine shield and devotion aura, makes you wonder?

macura is creep. Also, macura is one race in sunken ruins, that does not applz to other races as they do not need to have some shared stuff besides that they live in sunken ruins together. Different cultures, magics etc etc..
But still you have point. I did not say though (maybe I have) that devotion aura is holy, but still makura uses netural abilities.
Demons on other hand, unlike makkura are all together, regardless of sub race.
When Magtheridon attacks you, he sent all of demons available at you. All of them are defending him. Burning Legion also uses them all.
Makkura is not connected with others much, nobody uses them together with naga or other creeps.
I do not count much being together as creeps in melee because it is proven that logics do not apply much on melee.
Also do not forget, in melee that draenei are creeps aside with demons while they cannot take them on sight. They are in constant war with them.
But that can be due to fact that draenei are boken/lost, so not all clans are with Akama, some felt under demon influence.
Really I do not know much about makura, if same logic applies to them, I am more professional about demons as you noticed.

Not "not exist", they were part of orcs. Necrolytes and Death Knights were members of the Horde. Clans that don't listen Thrall still use Necromancy, Fel powers and even dragons. In wc3 Undead just got independant.

Indenpendent and enhanced. They were members of hordes because there were not more undeads or were not designed as new side.
But you are right anyway for rest.
Just do not forget that somehow Fel Orcs use red dragons.
This can be due to fact that they share some visual apperance: Both have red skin, green/yellow eyes and use fire and chaos damage.

Well I can either accept defeat or say blizzard made a mistake or retcon. <=D

I would not say it is your defeat. As you are speaking by logic for things which you are awared how they work, or which you have studied so far.
You are familiar with many things and have good knowledge.
I am more familiar as you noticed with those demons and stuff.
So its not your failure, but blizzard's.

Yeah but that is gameplay mechanic, in story I don't see why you can't put soul in object (like how frostmourne works).

You can put souls, not just frostmourne, but Demonic infernal and other machines have fel energies or souls inside.
But you need to have any sould to posses it. bansee cannot input soul or attach her soul to some object, she can only corrupt soul or use it as unit/object which already has soul.
Sure that demons or Undead can do that, but there needs to be ritual or such for that, Banshee cannot attach herself in battlefield just like that.

YBut anyway I still don't see why undead even have soul since only that would explain banshee being able to possess undead.

They have corrupted or dirty soul.
Butstill, its blizzard's fault because they do not explain much.
Remember when Arthas killed Sylvanas, he took her soul out and converted her into first banshee.
So Sylavanas found her corpse and somehow implanted back that soul into that corpse and we got her as hero.
So Undeads actually have soul. Remember that firelord can use soul burn at any Undead.

Actually traditionally to revive Lich you just wait for them to regenerate in phylactery. What you are talking about is creating one special Lich. Also they dropped the ashes of king Terenas, they just needed an urn to hold ashes of Kel'Thuzad.

Yeah, this is current Undead lich such as that dead Necromancer or those trained from Altar of darkness. Yes, there are other types of liches.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guess what I am trying to say that all magic is actually same thing. Just that sources and the philosophy about (ab)use are different but that purest (and oldest) form of magic is Arcane.

Yes, you have point. This is it, but it was same thing, now according to users and for what is used, magics got under separated categories.

Also we seriously need a separate thread for our discussion. We stopped talking about Doom Guard pages ago.

hahaha! Well not exactly about doom guard, but about any other units. Xarwin and Footman wroted their posts...

 

[VeljkoM]

Master Haosis Part

Well, you are right. Demons could use something different but similar.
I do not know what. But they seem to have very big advantage to summon new demons via various portals or spells everywhere.

That should totally be Demon race mechanic like in Heroes V. Instead of healing they should be able to use summons to increase survival.

But when you kill them, they all left corpse.
If you have ability to revive something either with holy revive or necromancy that does not necessary mean that there would not be death in wc3.
Still, specific units/stuff can ressurect/revive other units... Those reviving systems have limitations (needs lot of mana, micromanagments, big cooldown etc...those corpses does not last forever etc etc..). So some units can get managed to be revived, but mostly not.

For the first part it is case of Story and Gameplay Separation which is actually answer to a lot of points you mention. If the resurrection could work on any corpse then what exactly would stop humans from recovering their fallen soldiers and leaders (LOTHAR!). Of course in game itself it is balanced with cooldowns and extreme speed of decay.

Ah that.
Yes, but on barrens for example, all races are there, such as one continent. And they keep reproducing themselves, for example centaurs, quillboars etc etc...
So demons whose are left in Outland may also reproduce themselves. Plus, Outland is still planet fragments which are in Twisted Netherm which means that demons may arrive there in any time. They just need to land with transport or such. or fly.
Also, Illidan is using Magtheridon's blood to reproduce Fel Orcs. Also, not all demonic gates are closed. Some are opened somewhere, it is said in WOW and some could be reopened. So, they are still most dangeious than any other race.

I think you need some time to pass before you could start to populate world with reproduction. Barrens races lived there for 10.000 years (it is magical warcraft number and must be yelled), while demons are on outland for just few years (exact number of years is impossible to know as Blizzard isn't consistent with time (or numbers) at all). And honestly in WoW you see way more Ilidari forces compared to Demons.

Also Old Gods took the title of the most dangerous threat in WoW, legion wasn't a factor since Burning Crusades.

Yes. Creeps are actually human priests and mages.

Also the Church of Light was made by humans. Many priests became paladins because of first two wars but still it is religion of humanity mostly.

Nuke is tool too
Tool for mass destruction therefore cannot be good in any way.
S magics indeed can be bad or good because some are designed to damage, kill others in very big numbers. Although some magic can be good such as to heal and support others. For example, Undead healing is not bad because it heals themselves and cannot harm others (aside from death coil).
So theoretically, every race has its own good or bad magics, depends of what those are supposed to do. But for sure that users are good or bad.
I do not know exactly how fel is unstable, since all fel corrupted users are controlled well precisely without exceptions. They serve demons.
Corruption by itself can be unstable (corrupted crazed fulborgs) whose were sick of that defiled fountain. Also those spiders whose are grown due to corruption and many other creatures turned mad.

Yeah but I think that Fel is the only magic that can't serve as good. It just corrupts and destroys. Guess someone can consider that good?

Yeah. Those are specific cases which I did not have time to mention and explain. Death Knights are connected with Lich King, as everyone whose they kill and took souls. So as power of lich king fades away, so it fades to his death knight. that is how Sylvanas freed herself and formed Forsaken.
They use apotecary. They can revive corpse by some virus, much like zombies from movies, so they can become mindless, depend of how they are revived. Not necessery to be revived by magic.

Funny though Death Knights are older than Lich King. But anyway regarding Scourge Undead they are all connected to Lich King and operate as Hive Mind really. When Lich King power was disrupted he lost connection to most of undead and for some reason he can't ever again establish it (their bodies developed immunity with their white cells?). As for apothecaries they are alchemists and don't have magic themselves and can't make new undead which was an issue for Forsaken population that was fixed when Scourge was defeated and its members joined Forsaken (specificly Valkyries). Apothecaries did make Plague of Undeath Mk2 but that just killed everything alive and dead (I don't want to even think how you kill undead with plague).

But it is shown and explained that he is now classified as night elf demon, hybrid between night lf and demon.
Yes, I did not know about his previous abilities, but now they are demonic totally.
Also it is explained that if you live too long with demons and if you drink their blood or using their energies you become voilent and transformed.
Blood elves used siphon mana on demons, since they lost sun well, they needed alternate power of source, so they drained local demons, that started to transform them, They also got green eyes, started to mutate, even become new felblood elves.

Yes now he is demon but my point was that he used fel way before he became demon and never used druidism. And we have established already that Fel corrupts. Also hurray Blood Elves have Sun Well again, wasn't that destruction pointless or what. The Fel Elves kinda are footnote by now sadly.

Yeah, but I do not know if Shaman can be shaman with fel energy.
They perhaps did not have choice but to accept those demonic abilities, since choice is already made by drink demonic blood.

Think Spirits would refuse to obey fel infused shaman anyway.

That is true, but it also depends of type of blood. That can be used as shamanic ability if bloodlust upgrades your own blood etc...
Fel bloodlust would be enhancing it with fel energies or demonic blood, or using blood from someone else. Shamanic bloodlust seems not using another's blood.

Bloodlust doesn't effect your blood, it increases lust to spill blood. That kinda sounds like something modern orcs wouldn't want anymore and completely normal for Fel Orcs (heck Fel Grunts have animation for self Bloodlust/Berserk).

That is subject of discussion. Drain mana serves for that. Such as life drain which sucubuss have. This is perhaps designed to be like that, to burn mana and life.

Drain Mana is arcane magic, and I doubt that Fel Magic could be used to do something like that except to destroy mana. As for Succubus I don't think life drain is really a spell and more like natural ability of the species, since you know whole seduction and life draining is what succubus are known for. Also to break your brain further Life Drain is Priest spell in WoW.

Yes, Eredar warlocks have that. But also Naga witch, and that Faceless unit level 8. So you have some point, it is alternate but not direct oposite to divine shield. Demons could have something specific. LIke Unholy/Death/Hell/Fire shield.

It is Arcane spell, anyone that can use magic should be able to do it. I wouldn't expect fel magic ever to be used as defense anyway that would be too stable feature.

macura is creep. Also, macura is one race in sunken ruins, that does not applz to other races as they do not need to have some shared stuff besides that they live in sunken ruins together. Different cultures, magics etc etc..
But still you have point. I did not say though (maybe I have) that devotion aura is holy, but still makura uses netural abilities.
Demons on other hand, unlike makkura are all together, regardless of sub race.
When Magtheridon attacks you, he sent all of demons available at you. All of them are defending him. Burning Legion also uses them all.
Makkura is not connected with others much, nobody uses them together with naga or other creeps.
I do not count much being together as creeps in melee because it is proven that logics do not apply much on melee.
Also do not forget, in melee that draenei are creeps aside with demons while they cannot take them on sight. They are in constant war with them.
But that can be due to fact that draenei are boken/lost, so not all clans are with Akama, some felt under demon influence.
Really I do not know much about makura, if same logic applies to them, I am more professional about demons as you noticed.

Errrr my question was if Makrura maybe actually follow the Light, but probably not. I do not understand the later parts of comment honestly. If you are talking about Makrura not being together with other sunken ruins creeps and naga, well yeah of course they all hate each other (Naga hate everything non naga, mur'guls are insane, Sea Giants are probably insane too and rest are non sentient).
As for Legion well I doubt they are as united as they appear, every big demon is probably dreaming of backstabbing all others and become the ruler of the legion.
Regarding Draenei I hate the WoW retcon but if I must comment about wow era draenei most follow Illidan or have become barbaric creatures. Doubt any single draenei has any love for demons. But then if there was a race that was retconed constantly it would be them.

Indenpendent and enhanced. They were members of hordes because there were not more undeads or were not designed as new side.
But you are right anyway for rest.
Just do not forget that somehow Fel Orcs use red dragons.
This can be due to fact that they share some visual apperance: Both have red skin, green/yellow eyes and use fire and chaos damage.

I don't know Death Knights of the Second War weren't to be trifled with. Terron Gorefinder actually planned to use one of the Ner'zhul portals to find world for him and his death knights to rule.
And Fel Orcs having red dragons isn't that odd in Wc3. In Wc2 expansion Horde brought Dragons to Dreanor so we can assume some survived and stayed with orcs. Of course in novels after wc2 dragons were specifically red. WoW later retconed Nether Drakes from shadow demonic beings in to fel infused dragons (possibly Black because they were hatched from Deathwing eggs?). I am rusty with wow lore honestly.

I would not say it is your defeat. As you are speaking by logic for things which you are awared how they work, or which you have studied so far.
You are familiar with many things and have good knowledge.
I am more familiar as you noticed with those demons and stuff.
So its not your failure, but blizzard's.

Ok all that but I can't explain why Fel Bladmaster has Hero attack besides "Blizzard did it".

You can put souls, not just frostmourne, but Demonic infernal and other machines have fel energies or souls inside.
But you need to have any sould to posses it. bansee cannot input soul or attach her soul to some object, she can only corrupt soul or use it as unit/object which already has soul.
Sure that demons or Undead can do that, but there needs to be ritual or such for that, Banshee cannot attach herself in battlefield just like that.

Frostmourne was just an example. As for Infernals and other fel constructs I figured they were just magic constructs like Golems just made with fel energy instead of arcane. Guess "fulled by the damned souls" does have certain charm.
Also was under impression you possess "body" and remove/destroy "soul". And actually she can attach just like that, but that was fixed in later patches by making casting longer, stuns banshee and receives extra damage.

They have corrupted or dirty soul.
Butstill, its blizzard's fault because they do not explain much.
Remember when Arthas killed Sylvanas, he took her soul out and converted her into first banshee.
So Sylavanas found her corpse and somehow implanted back that soul into that corpse and we got her as hero.
So Undeads actually have soul. Remember that firelord can use soul burn at any Undead.

I just don't see why bother putting a soul in an undead soldier, guess that is just how necromancy has to work or else it wouldn't be undead and instead would be just bone/flesh golem.
Sylvanas thing was retconed though that she was always in that body. I would mind but hey she looks better as Dark Ranger rather than recolored banshee.

Yeah, this is current Undead lich such as that dead Necromancer or those trained from Altar of darkness. Yes, there are other types of liches.

Actually a Lich is basically when magic users dies and through special ritual becomes undead undead (in case of Kel'Thuzad Ash+Well=Profit), retains his mind fully and locks his soul in to an object from which Lich can regenerate every time he is destroyed (phylactery). It isn't something everyone can become. There are no other types of Liches in Warcraft.

Footmen
Decent tier 1 unit. Lowest attack but good defense and easy to mass produce. Thankfully Spellbreakers were fixed and now have normal armor so you can't just replace footmen with them.

Destroyer
Great unit in every way except food cost. It is not good as a Hero. But otherwise it is fast, magic attack is good type of attack, magic immune and Devourer Magic is mandatory.

Think they are best against undead ironically if enemy is using the Necromancer+Corpse Wagon+Statues to spam skeletons. All those skeletons are free mana and siege wagons have heavy armor so they die like flies.

 

[MasterHaosis]

VeljukoM, yeah but that Destroyer has mana drain constantly and cannot be healed at fountain of mana. This is one drawback

 

[VeljkoM]

Not a drawback, a balance feature. His Devourer Magic is still free and eats all buffs and summoned units. They can self heal and regenerate mana that way.

Oh and guess this is the end of our digressive conversation?

 

[MasterHaosis]

Not it is not... we must keep talking... Wc3 feature/logics and how some stuff work is still much to talk.
I knew that it was feature but I did not like it. I do not like things when you drain something automatically and cannot heal it yourself where everyone others can be healed.

EDIT:
The horrifying Undead army, called the Scourge, consists of thousands of walking corpses, disembodied spirits, damned mortal men and insidious extra-dimensional entities"
From classic blattle net. You see, some damned humans are there, so they can soul. Damned corrupted

 

[VeljkoM]

No i mean I made that nice big comment in the "Master Haosis" section of my post and no comment back about it.

But still Destroyer is fully capable of preforming without mana. He still has reasonable attack, can't be touched by human air units (Grifins use magic attack and Dragonhawks can't trap it), is prefect solution for undead lack of dispels. And I am pretty sure he still heals, he just has negative mana regeneration or else all would be doomed. Sadly we must think of the other races...

 

[Shadow Fury]

Time to rush in again!
Footmen? Bleah, stupid useless units with no value for me. Get grunts! It is the most powerful tier 1 unit in the whole game. In early games, they are like mini tanks!

Destroyers, nice ones! I never used them when playing undead but I used them in campaigns. Can't really judge if they are so useful, sisn't tested them long enough.

 

[KommissarReb]

For some reason I've always fancied using Necromancers for their "Raise Dead" spell, but I also really like Ogre Magi for some reason. And then there are the Revenants, Doom Guards... I'd have to think about it really. I can't comment on units from The Frozen Throne, as I still don't have that game yet.

 

[PublishedShadow]

I actually really really like the spell breaker. Not only does he just look like a badass, he can really wreck people that use spellcasters as their main strategy. Not to mention feedback which is just brutal on Intellect heroes and summons. Oh and they are slightly ranged spell 'casters' that deal normal damage and have medium armor, what's not to love?

Really I feel that these guys are underutilized in most formats... but their actual versatility in your army is just ridiculous.

 

[MasterHaosis]

PublishedShadow, yeah, although not using them much, spell breakers are awesome against spell casters.

KommissarReb, yeah, Necromancers and that rapid skeletons stuff.

Shadow Fury, VeljkoM, yeah. Lot of people are using them. I am using just for dispel.

VeljkoM, Can be Dispel used on summoned Dom guard to damage it, or resistant skin prevents it?

 

[Shar Dundred]

Destroyers are really useful, I agree.

Footmen are a bit disappointing. Other Tier 1 units, like Grunts or Archers, get new upgrades in late game that make them a bit more useful there. I'd have wished an upgrade for Footmen in late game, similar to the Berserker Strength. It's really, extremely missing here.

 

[Wasabee]

Well the footmen excel in numbers and only rivaled by ghouls, archers are weaker than footmen in the early games and grunts are more expensive than footmen.

 

[VeljkoM]

But Warcraft 3 really isn't a game where spamming cheap numerous units works except if you do it early to rush. Ghouls and Archers too can be spammed and get upgrades to keep them useful later in game. And archers being ranged units are more useful if you can micromanage them nicely.

And M.Haosis no idea if Dispel works on Doom Guard but I don't see why not. I do know that simple dispel makes Necromancer skeleton spam useless.

 

[Xonok]

Footmen remain more cost-efficient than knights against pierce for the whole game.

 

[Footman16]

Knights are the single most cost and time efficient tier 3 melee unit in the game, so basically all Human melee units are my favourite.

 

[Daffa]

Undead Balance is sort of screwed with Meat + Necromancer tactic in TFT (thanks to Meat's upgrade that creates corpse automatically), unless you're human/undead (Dispel/Devour Magic), pretty much you're screwed. The amount of skeletons is unbearable to most forces. The good thing is that a Necromancer only can summon 2 at a time, and the Cooldown of corpse regeneration and raise dead gives time for retaliation, and they crumble upon Air Strike (Frost + Destroyer especially).

I guess my favorite would either Dyard (damn good poison), Mountain Giant (unstoppable tanks), or Banshee (steal enemy workers ftw!).

 

[VeljkoM]

You mean unless you are human or undead or orc (Dispel;Spellbreakers/Devour Magic/Disenchant). Well Night Elves can use Abolish Magic too really and fairy dragons would punish necromancers each time they would cast Raise Dead. And all of this if you are lazy to kill the 180hp skeletons. So remind me again why is it hard to stop it by most forces when everyone can stop it?

Now if you have said unbalanced in RoC I would be more open to the idea as anti-magic units were added in TFT.

 

[Daffa]

You mean unless you are human or undead or orc (Dispel;Spellbreakers/Devour Magic/Disenchant). Well Night Elves can use Abolish Magic too really and fairy dragons would punish necromancers each time they would cast Raise Dead. And all of this if you are lazy to kill the 180hp skeletons. So remind me again why is it hard to stop it by most forces when everyone can stop it?

Now if you have said unbalanced in RoC I would be more open to the idea as anti-magic units were added in TFT.

Yeah, I forget about those :/
Thanks for reminding

 

[Ceday]

When you pick favorite unit, you should not only consider its power.How frequently you can have a doom guard on your side?For me it is siege tank because it is a human unit, it is sound/mobile/repairable and it can make you win games without actually engaging enemy directly.

 

[GhostThruster]

Yeah, I forget about those :/
Thanks for reminding

not to mention wisps.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Time to rush in again!
Footmen? Bleah, stupid useless units with no value for me. Get grunts! It is the most powerful tier 1 unit in the whole game. In early games, they are like mini tanks!

I don't know about that. Well, I guess the footmen's strength is in their numbers. Being really cheap and all.

 

[Footman16]

When you pick favorite unit, you should not only consider its power.How frequently you can have a doom guard on your side?For me it is siege tank because it is a human unit, it is sound/mobile/repairable and it can make you win games without actually engaging enemy directly.

Well I didn't really consider power, I mean Footman are just really cool what with a line of them charging with defend = Awesome! Also Knight's riding down a fleeing enemy = Awesome!

As for most powerful unit, I'd have to say Gryphons probably but I don't like them that much.

In fact in my opinion, some of the Tier 3 in Warcraft 3 really ruins part of the meta of the game: it needs some serious nerfing in order to bring a bit of late game versatility and options rather than spam the Tier 3 flier for the win.

But either way, Footman: the underdogs how can you not like them.

"Uncle Lothar wants you!"

 

[VeljkoM]

Never underestimate the value of cannon fodder. But yes it just feels that game really favors more small groups of powerful units which results that lower tiers units feel obsolete or at least tier 1 melee units.

 

[MasterHaosis]

When you pick favorite unit, you should not only consider its power.How frequently you can have a doom guard on your side?

Well, I created thread so people can chose favorite unit regardless of how often you can chose. it can be any neutral unit in game from level 1-10. But yes, you can also chose the ones you can frequently use.

VeljkoM, I told you that blizzard made mistake regarding doom guard, that he should have primary bigger melee damage, and secondary ranged weaker damage. Not primary bigger ranged and secondary weaker melee.
In that mission Lor of Outland or such where you need to defeat Magtheridon with illidan, blood elves, naga and Draenei, you need to kill that Master of Pain. he has 71-90 ranged attack, 35-42 melee. Regular Doom Guard has 41-48 ranged, 35-42 melee damage. You see, master of Pain who is more powerful than Hero has same melee damage as Doom guard. They increased primary damage which is ranged, but you cannot build any air unit. Blizzard though that primary is melee as it should be, so they did not want to touch secondary which supposed to be ranged. But they made mistake.

Anyway, Xonok and I were testing some stuff. he told me to check how many peons can beat one doom guard. (we in chat talked that because regular users are peons, I got dom guard icon thanks to Shar Dundred)
Xonok, I used 20 peons. They surround me, then I used rain of fire at myself, or near myself, to damage many peons at one, and killing some of them.
Then I use war stomp to shock then, and rain of fire at rest ones. And few survive, I kill them manually. Doom Guard is left at 400-500 HP or osmething like that. I tested yesterday cant remember.
I tested even 4 peons in Burrow against Doom Guard. That depends, mostly doom guard can destroy burrow, if he damages burrow with rain of fire.
But be aware that ran if fire outranges range of burrow, so doom can attack it from safe distance.

 

[lord_Turin]

those 20 peons should have rushed in and surrounded you with burrows and towers.

 

[MasterHaosis]

ahahaha and how to do that?
I stand and do nothing whole they surround me and build towers and burrows? Awesome joke. Also, money is needed for that, lot of money. While testing we do not start with money, otherwise I could stand with fountain of power and turn tide of battle... or, call doom lord, Master of Pain himself haha

 

[VeljkoM]

Actually the Doom Guard attack thing only proves that they made a mistake in campaign. Doesn't necessarily mean that the regular one shouldn't have higher air attack to compensate for not being able to war stomp air units.

And next time Peons shall drown the Doom Guard with their dead bodies. 300 peons!

 

[blancfaye7]

My favorite units were footmen.

They were with me in War when I needed them. When I was on the losing side... they were my last companions. To regain army strength, I have to at least train them. Footmen are cheap, but they can be incredible troops. The strong establishment of your army wouldn't exist without a few footmen.

 

[MasterHaosis]

Actually the Doom Guard attack thing only proves that they made a mistake in campaign. Doesn't necessarily mean that the regular one shouldn't have higher air attack to compensate for not being able to war stomp air units.

Maybe, but for me it is not same. Damage is permanent, you cannot depend always on war stomp since you can be without mana. Also war stomp deals 25 damage and stuns units on3 seconds, (heroes and high levelled creatures stuns only one second), so higher damage is much better for me. War Stomp is only useful to disrupt heroe's ultimate ability and Life/mana drain. And yes, against peons or low leveled units.

VeljkoM, Xonok, I found in Frozen Throne, Night Elf 3 campaign, when you need to go into Tomb of Sargeras, two custom units. One is smaller and weaker doom guard named Overlord, second is Pit Lord unit, which logically does not exist, but they used doom guard as base and changed stats.
They basically decreased damage, health and level to doom guard, as well removing of some abilities to make Overlord.
As we know, original Doom guard stats are: Primary ranged chaos damage 41-48, Secondary melee chaos 35-42, 1350 HP, 500 mana, 3 heavy armor, Dispel Magic, War Stomp, Cripple, Rain of Fire, Resistant Skin abilities.
Overlord stats are: Primary ranged chaos damage 41-48, Secondary melee chaos 22-27, 950 HP, 500 mana, 3 heavy armor, War Stomp and Rain of Fire abilities. level 6.
So basically, they left primary damage because it cannot be used since there are no air units in that map, (and cost/doos since you cannot buy it), but they removed damage and hit points. And left only two abilities. That is how they decreased doom guard from level 8 to level 6.

Pit Lord stats are: Primary melee chaos damage 22-32 Secondary melee chaos (I forgot but it is unused anyway), 1350 HP, 500 mana, 3 heavy armor, War Stomp and Raise Dead abilities. Level 7.

 

[VeljkoM]

You prefer increased single damage, but personally I value highly even 1 second stun. I always chose it for Tauren Chieftain along with endurance aura. Of course it was not designed for PvP so it won't be preferred in duels but 1v1 situation shouldn't be focused in rts gameplay.

And now that second example shows that Master of Pain was a mistake because they reduced correct melee attack. But I must admit I don't see why they removed Dispel and Resistant Skin. And that Pit Lord was always odd to me and it probably has two attacks because it probably is based of heroes and they have hidden second attack for orb enabled air attack.

 

[MasterHaosis]

You prefer increased single damage, but personally I value highly even 1 second stun. I always chose it for Tauren Chieftain along with endurance aura. Of course it was not designed for PvP so it won't be preferred in duels but 1v1 situation shouldn't be focused in rts gameplay.

Of course, I am using war stomp for Tauren too, but for doom guard its just weak. 5 seconds should be enough. in 1 vs 1 matches, war stomp saved me against Maiden of Pain, as I cancelled her's life drain which lasts few seconds.And shocking group of units, yes. it is useful, but I would like to have greater damage little. But yes, if he could have greater damage, he would have bigger level.

And now that second example shows that Master of Pain was a mistake because they reduced correct melee attack. But I must admit I don't see why they removed Dispel and Resistant Skin.

Because Overlord supposed to be level 6, actually weaker version of doom guard and perhaps slightly different. When you approach him with Maeiv, he says ,,Turn back you mortals, noone can defile Tomb of Sargeras" (hehe ignoring fact that ingame he makes noise instead of speaking")

And that Pit Lord was always odd to me and it probably has two attacks because it probably is based of heroes and they have hidden second attack for orb enabled air attack.

First attackebris,Ground,Item,Ward. Second attack:Ground,Structure,Debris,Item,Ward. Pretty much same. So secondary is useless. No, when I click on reset unit, it turns back into Doom Guard. So Pit Lord is weirdly based on him. They changed primary ranged attack from doom guard into melee for Pit Lord and forgot to disable secondary attack. Thus made mistake (again).

Yeah, it is also odd for me as well. Pit Lord as unit, alongside with that Overlord, two units which are exclusive to that mission only to count as Tomb Defenders. Logically, Sargeras was dark titan, so demons would protect his tomb, but those two units are nothing specific in any way, just weaker versions of Doom Guard (and Pit Lord by appearance)

 

[BLazeKraze]

My favorite unit is druid of the talon, I don't know why ?
He can lift the enemies with his cyclone ability , he can transform into a crow to deal with air units, he can cast faerie fire to reduce enemies armor...

I tried to win in a 1 on 1 battle using mass druid of the talon and 1 hero.
11 druid of the talons and 12 storm crows, and 2 Chimaeras and 2 mountain giants
In clash, I cast cyclone into strong units, using my fast hands, then deal with heroes, I'll try to lift them up also ....
Then I kill some of weak units...
My attention belongs to heroes, I kill them first while his most strong units is in the air...
I can't explain further more how I did it, maybe luck saved me ...
I know that it can be dispel, but when they do, I lift them up again.
The mana is limited but I always build many moonwells in some location to regain mana ...

 

[Daffa]

But against Spell Breaker and his buddies, the disablers. Then all Spellcasters are screwed.

 

[VeljkoM]

Isn't that an overkill with druids? I honestly would replace Storm Crows with Hippogriffs, at least that way you would counter undead anti-caster, the Devourer.

Anyway it seems to me like this army would kill enemy real slowly as you only have Chimeras to deal with ground targets. Do you really need that many druids and not get some more damage dealers to kill anti-casters and thus eliminate your main weakness?

Still think humans can do this tactic better with sorceress abuse as polymorph doesn't make target invulnerable and you actually can deal with mana problem with Archmage brilliance aura.

 

[MasterHaosis]

VeljkoM, I found that Chaos battle master. Seems that we made mistake. he is not new in Frozen Throne to get hero attack. he appeared in that Undead mission in Reign of chaos, where you need to destroy orc leftover bases to clear path so KelThuzad can talk with Archimode at Demonic Gate. There are Orcs with Red dragons and their hero is chaos battlemaster.
Also, remember that Chaos Slave Master is also in first human mission in reign of chaos, you need to kill that fel orc on horse.

Also, regarding that pit lord and overlord in Tomb of Sargeras also make sense according to their story, because some demons and daemons (which is similar) were protecting tomb. When Guldan tried to break in tomb, crazed demons whose protecting tomb attacked him and his stormreaves clan, and killed everyone.
In Wc2, this daemon appeared there

Also, it is said in WOW, that when you summon daemon you get some type of doom guard. So, here that Overlord is based on doomguard perhaps because it resembles most of that daemon, and turns out to be same type of unit with different name.

 

[VeljkoM]

No I didn't forget Chaos Blademaster from RoC, but that was RoC when hero attack didn't exist. When TFT came all heroes then gained Hero Attack.

To be honest I always saw deamon as alternative spelling. But yeah random demons were protecting the tomb (I have many questions about logic behind that tomb...). And I could nitpick that Wc2 Daemons were actually flying units with no abilities but Doom Guards are probably based of them anyway (Big, red, wings, burning sword). And well easier to use model they already have.

 

[Arad MNK]

INFERNALS!
I love the infernals because they have a Big HP and Attack + they are magic resistant and immolated

 

[MasterHaosis]

But yeah random demons were protecting the tomb (I have many questions about logic behind that tomb...).

Which questions? Yeah, some things are weird to me as well.

And I could nitpick that Wc2 Daemons were actually flying units with no abilities but Doom Guards are probably based of them anyway (Big, red, wings, burning sword). And well easier to use model they already have.

I do not know about them being flying units, but you are right since you know better previous war craft than me.
But yes, Doom Guard is definitively based on them, and later daemons on doom guards in WOW. So it turns that they are similar species.
But that is how demon should look like, just look at it's face.

INFERNALS!
I love the infernals because they have a Big HP and Attack + they are magic resistant and immolated

Oh yes! Infernals. They are one of best melee units in game. Infernal on 1 vs 1 can beat most of units.

 

[VeljkoM]

Which questions? Yeah, some things are weird to me as well.

Well why are demons there at all? Aegwyn buried Sargeras there and then had sunk the tomb to the bottom of the ocean. Someone had to summon those demons while the tomb was under water.

I do not know about them being flying units, but you are right since you know better previous war craft than me.
But yes, Doom Guard is definitively based on them, and later daemons on doom guards in WOW. So it turns that they are similar species.
But that is how demon should look like, just look at it's face.

Heh Wc1 were ground it seems, they are quite old. In WoW wasn't Deamon just in Medivh chess battle as rook figure (pieces were units from wc1). In WoW doom Guard species has an actual name anyway but I am to lazy to check it out.

Oh yes! Infernals. They are one of best melee units in game. Infernal on 1 vs 1 can beat most of units.

But they are just burning rocks...

 

[MasterHaosis]

Well why are demons there at all? Aegwyn buried Sargeras there and then had sunk the tomb to the bottom of the ocean. Someone had to summon those demons while the tomb was under water.

Well, whole Marimar (whatever it is called) city was burried to seafloor. Tomb was in the middle of that city. But Tomb was sealed itself perhaps. So demons could be there forever. But Sargeras as dark titan would use them for personnel protection. There is no other race whose would protect his tomb.

Heh Wc1 were ground it seems, they are quite old. In WoW wasn't Deamon just in Medivh chess battle as rook figure (pieces were units from wc1). In WoW doom Guard species has an actual name anyway but I am to lazy to check it out.

It is said ,The model used for the Summoned Daemon is that of a doomguard, which fits with speculation that the daemons of the first two Warcraft games are, in fact, ered'ruin."
,,Summoned Daemon is a piece in the Chess Event in Karazhan that takes the place of a Rook for the Horde side. It is a reference to the daemon (see below) of the warlock units in Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. The model used for this mob is that of a doomguard, which fits with speculation that the daemons of the first two Warcraft games are, in fact, ered'ruin."
So it uses doom guard model itself in any case. They are similar.

But they are just burning rocks...

With outstanding HP, damage, regeneration and immolation. Only weakness is attack from air.

 

[Korialstrasz]

From every unit: I always loved the doomguard most. He was big, looked evil, had amazing wings. If you'd ask me, one of the finest models in the whole game. He also had incredible overpowered skills. He feels even stronger than the Infernal, so probably the strongest Minion in the game that is spawnable.

From the Melee Map Units: Don't ask me why, but it's the Dryad. The poison is extremly cool to slow enemy units, and to hunt them down. That combined with Huntress' was always pretty cool. Also they look pretty cool in my opinion, also how they walk. This jumping walking style. Always liked them the most. And Huntress' are just a bit behind. I mean Nightelves riding on Panthers? What do you want more?

 

[Sclammerz]

I mean Nightelves riding on Panthers? What do you want more?

Night elves riding a dryad.
Anyway my favorite unit is the Archer. I like how they shoot and run.