Europe: The Art of War

[SasuhKun]

Goffterdom, what the hell you think our clan is for?

 

[terranempire]

Uh, I'm just kinda jumping in here, but being from Scandinavia (Sweden to be exact), I'd like to point out that having Oslo as the Capital of Sweden-Norway makes little sense.

If you didn't know, there did exist such a thing between Sweden and Norway, but Norway was part of Denmark-Norway for a much longer time, although it was mostly the danes that ruled Denmark-Norway.
Same with Sweden-Norway, it was Sweden that forced Norway into a union.
So, in regards to history, if you are going to combine Sweden and Norway into "Scandinavia" I think it'd make more sense if Stockholm (The Capital of Sweden) was their capital city.

But, between which years is this map supposed to take place? It doesn't seem to be listed anywhere.
Because between the years 1397–1523 there did exist a union between Denmark, Sweden (which included some of Finland) and Norway (with Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Shetland, and Orkney) called the Kalmar Union (In Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish called: Kalmarunionen).

As for the unit names, depending on when the map is, but I suggest just naming their unique warrior unit after the swedish word for warrior, "krigare" and their unique frigate after the swedish and norwegian name for frigate, "fregatt".

 

[SasuhKun]

Uh, I'm just kinda jumping in here, but being from Scandinavia (Sweden to be exact), I'd like to point out that having Oslo as the Capital of Sweden-Norway makes little sense.

If you didn't know, there did exist such a thing between Sweden and Norway, but Norway was part of Denmark-Norway for a much longer time, although it was mostly the danes that ruled Denmark-Norway.
Same with Sweden-Norway, it was Sweden that forced Norway into a union.
So, in regards to history, if you are going to combine Sweden and Norway into "Scandinavia" I think it'd make more sense if Stockholm (The Capital of Sweden) was their capital city.

But, between which years is this map supposed to take place? It doesn't seem to be listed anywhere.
Because between the years 1397–1523 there did exist a union between Denmark, Sweden (which included some of Finland) and Norway (with Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Shetland, and Orkney) called the Kalmar Union (In Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish called: Kalmarunionen).

As for the unit names, depending on when the map is, but I suggest just naming their unique warrior unit after the swedish word for warrior, "krigare" and their unique frigate after the swedish and norwegian name for frigate, "fregatt".

Thanks for the information o/

And I suggested the last paragraph to him... we just didn't know the proper names.

 

[Gallin]

Ill beta test

 

[SasuhKun]

Ok, Gallin, on which server you play? The clan is on US.East, but Goffterdom original server is Northrend...

 

[Gallin]

is the clan aw on us.east because im in that

 

[SasuhKun]

Oh. NOW I REMEMBER YOU. I think. I'm Immortal-Prince, the chieftain. You propably used the link I put on the Clan Message, did you not? It would make sense.. hmm, aside from you, only another guy have seen this. Nefarion, but he does not have a hive workshop account. Though he did suggested me a few things I already said. Hmm.. so proud of my clan. Makes me want to cry sometimes.

Edit: Gallin_, right? Heh. Goffterdom, Sukuld wants to test too. So we have 4 now. By the way, why there must be only 4 beta testers?

Edit: Haha... 2 more players wanna in. I knew that 4 was too low. DeadBabyDitch and a guy with a strange name. Both from my clan. First I posted the link on there (that's how Gallin_ came, I think) now there is the link plus thing (We Need beta testers).. so Goffterdom. How is it going to be?

 

[Goffterdom]

I'll try to increase the player cap to 6. But for now it still needs work. Thanks for the suggestion about Norway and Sweden, I'll switch capital-city of Scandinavia from Opslo to Stockholm.

 

[terranempire]

I'll try to increase the player cap to 6. But for now it still needs work. Thanks for the suggestion about Norway and Sweden, I'll switch capital-city of Scandinavia from Opslo to Stockholm.

I should mention that it's spelled Oslo, not Opslo.
Sorry if you already knew and just spelled wrong but..it seemed like you didn't know.

 

[Goffterdom]

In a medieval map Oslo is spelled "Opslo (Oslo)".

I posted it few pages ago.

 

[terranempire]

In a medieval map Oslo is spelled "Opslo (Oslo)".

I posted it few pages ago.

Um, I have honestly NEVER seen Oslo spelled as "Opslo", plus it sounds weird.
It was called Christiania for a time though, but that was after Oslo had largely been destroyed by a fire in the year 1625 I think (not sure).

 

[SasuhKun]

Sometimes some names are different in old ages. For example.... Strength was Strenght, heart was hearth, something like that.

 

[terranempire]

Uh it was spelled Óslo or Áslo for a time but never Opslo from my knowledge.
Where did you even get that spelling from anyway?

Edit: after searching around the net for a bit, seems like Opslo was an alternative spelling of Oslo.
Btw, could somebody inform me of the exact timeline in this map?

 

[SasuhKun]

I'd say between 900 and 1800, VERY roughly.

 

[Goffterdom]

Ofc not xD

From 1000's to 1500's.

EDIT:

I found this:

Europe Medieval Map

Here we can see "Opslo".

 

[terranempire]

Huh, well it's an english map though so I'm not sure if it should be trusted (you should actually ask a Norwegian, they know more than I do on this subject).

Anyway, Oslo was founded in 1048 I think, by a norwegian king.
It was renamed Christiania (with the alternate spelling Kristiania used for like 27 years before it was renamed Oslo) after some fire that pretty much destroyed the whole city.
But, Oslo has always been called Oslo and thus I think that it's either A. Because the map is British or B. Opslo is an alternate spelling of Oslo.

Oh and if the date is supposed to be between those years, then anything that is connected to Vikings is pretty much out of the question of being accurate.
As is a Denmark-Norway/Sweden-Norway country.
Though you could call your scandinavian faction the Kalmar Union since it existed from 1397 to 1523.
And I should inform you that Finland first gained independence in 1917.
So having Finland as an independent country is kinda anachronistic.
Since it was between the 1000's and 1500's a fully integrated part of the Swedish Kingdom until Sweden lost Finland to Russia somewhere in the 1800's.
Also, both Norway, Denmark and Sweden (which includes parts of Finland) were independent countries until the creation of the Kalmar Union in 1397.

I think that you should do some deeper research about the countries that you are gonna include.

 

[Goffterdom]

There is no Finish Nation. And I was planing to make a Scandinavian Nation, as you said it can be better to name it "Kalmar Union".

Both of the map I use are in English, I can't check the name of every towns in their proper language...

Moreover, it's a gameplay issue that leads to the unification of the Scandinavian Nation, there's no "historical" background.

Anyway you are true, I didnt do enough researches... that's why you fixed my mistakes , thanks you. Reputation added.

 

[terranempire]

There is no Finish Nation. And I was planing to make a Scandinavian Nation, as you said it can be better to name it "Kalmar Union".

Both of the map I use are in English, I can't check the name of every towns in their proper language...

Moreover, it's a gameplay issue that leads to the unification of the Scandinavian Nation, there's no "historical" background.

Anyway you are true, I didnt do enough researches... that's why you fixed my mistakes , thanks you. Reputation added.

Well, the comment about that the maps are made by an englishman is to note the fact that the english are kinda bad at what happens in scandinavia (you should see John Cleese's "imitations" of a swedish accent, still funny but horribly incorrect).

 

[SasuhKun]

Rep from me too. Ok, let me see... Me, Goffterdom, Gallim_, Sukuld, Deadbabyditch, the guy which name I forgot. But we should get two reserves, just in case. Terranempire, you want to beta test?

 

[terranempire]

Rep from me too. Ok, let me see... Me, Goffterdom, Gallim_, Sukuld, Deadbabyditch, the guy which name I forgot. But we should get two reserves, just in case. Terranempire, you want to beta test?

I guess I could, when I have some free time.
Kinda short on that nowadays, and besides I play on Northrend, heh, so if you are playing on some other server then er...I don't know, but the limiting factor for me is free time, guess I could join but I can't promise that I'll be available all the time, though if you remove those factors...Sure, I'm in.

 

[Bettaxx]

Kalmar Union's good; capital should be in Denmark, maybe Ribe or Arhus; I forget how you spell that one, so I hope its right. Denmark was the main power in the union, so a player playing as the Kalmar Union should be sure to defend Jutland, or their main power base would be gone (Jutland = mainland Denmark, the peninsula). Denmark grew fat off its hold of the entrance to the Baltic Sea. Perhaps an economic advantage would help the Union in the game? Just throwing out ideas.

 

[Centreri]

Hrrm. PM me if you want me to beta-test the map. Also, I assume you mean without letting other people try it out? How 'secret' is it? This is Sentrii.

 

[SasuhKun]

1st. We know it is you Sentrii.

2nd. Not much secret. Everyone can be in the beta test until we reach the quota. Which is 6. Which we already reached. But since you're a Shaman, you have privileges. Well, it is always good to have spare people to test, since some people may not show up.

3rd. Read the clan message >_>

 

[Centreri]

It says nothing. : /

I meant if you allow testing by hosting publicly. Anyway, send me the map if you want, I'll test it out if I find the time. I'm running a bit inactive because of SC and WoW, though; not on every day anymore.

 

[Goffterdom]

There are kind of secret anyway you know sasuke

I would like to beta-test it with players who deserved it, like Centreri you and the other who gave ideas here. I dont want to test it with players I dont know.

 

[terranempire]

Hey, I suddenly got an idea for this map.
What if it went from say....1300-the end of WW1 (1918)?
Would make the game kinda long though and take time to make all the events, tech and such but it would sure extend the longevity of the map (and games don't even have to go to the end stage).

And the fact of all the empires falling and rising should be incorporated, like the Kalmar Union breaking apart, Poland getting taken by Russia and the Holy Roman Empire breaking apart.

So, for empires breaking apart and such I think it should go (as an example, if it would be implemented which would be cool):
Holy Roman Empire - Prussia
Kalmar Union - Swedish Empire (since sweden did become the stronger of the two scandinavian powers)
Polan-Lithuania (some event with Russia taking Poland) - Austria (maybe a bad choice but it works).
Some players could start as some small city states and get their roles shifted, though that might be annoying.

Anyways, it's just a suggestion that would be kinda cool if implemented.

Kalmar Union's good; capital should be in Denmark, maybe Ribe or Arhus; I forget how you spell that one, so I hope its right. Denmark was the main power in the union, so a player playing as the Kalmar Union should be sure to defend Jutland, or their main power base would be gone (Jutland = mainland Denmark, the peninsula). Denmark grew fat off its hold of the entrance to the Baltic Sea. Perhaps an economic advantage would help the Union in the game? Just throwing out ideas.

Well, it was mentioned earlier by somebody that having Denmark under the control of a scandinavian faction would be no point as the Germans would just take it, so I suggested using Stockholm as their capital instead, although for historical accuracy then Denmark should be owned by the Kalmar Union (although it should actually have the two capitals of the two greater powers of it, in my opinion as a compromise if the Germans would invade Denmark).

Edit: oh and the capital of Denmark is called Copenhagen in english.
In danish and norwegian it's called København.
And in swedish it's called Köpenhamn.
I suggest giving Copenhagen its danish name, or might be confusing for those who don't know but, it's accurate.

Edit2: ah wait, it only became the capital of Denmark at the beginning of the 15th century.

 

[SasuhKun]

The prowess of your idea is incredible terranempire, but Goffterdom said once: One of the things that this map is differenced by the other is that the players make history. If you want something with events, you can always go play Age of Napoleon or Europa. Well, it is up to Goffterdom anyway...

Sentrii, it says something like: Everyone (mainly Sentrii and Sukuld) We need beta testers for this (link to this project): in any doubt, talk to any of the shamans or to me. Thanks.


(I do not remember well.)

 

[Dr. itsekk]

Greetings. The thing about the Kalmar Union sounds fine, but you should know that before the black death Noway was actually a fairly strong nation. Most of the islands west of Norway was under Norwegian rule. A good capital could be "Bergen" or "Trondheim" which were important cities. Also a good special could be the "Hird" (It is kind of a Norwegian nobility that served as the main army, and i don't think there are any English words for it.) Historically Norway stood as a strong independent nation, and in my opinion cloud work as a nation in your game. But if you find the available space to small the Kalmar Union would also work just fine.

Yeah, and great map! Keep going.

 

[SasuhKun]

Hird's are like the Hidalgos from Spain. They could be different on their own way of course, because of the climate.

 

[terranempire]

Well, I also had a smaller idea that would be much easier to implement and not need events.
If there are any spare nations that are too insignificant, why not make them an option to use and build some empire that probably never existed instead of any predefined ones?
Although it'd have to be balanced but could be fun, especially since, that empire would be completely made by the player, not historical at all, but it'd feel satisfying seeing your empire conquer the world for example.

But one thing that would be realistic and fun (atleast in my opinion) would be to realistically model some things like..morale, revolutions and such stuff.
The reason why I bring this up is because it would be interesting if you could actually implement real-world strategies (like Sun Tzu), for example, causing the enemy army to surrender which grants you some additional troops, causing a revolution in an enemy empire, the possibilities can go on.

Edit: after re-reading the first post, seems like revolts are already in (yay!).

Edit2: The first post has something about ages, how many and how far approximately? (I assume that it's AoE styled, just teching through tiers)

Edit3: I think that the first post should be edited slightly.

 

[Goffterdom]

Ok well I think I have to answer now...

@terranempire: Europe: The Art of War is a kind of finality for me, this is the achievement of all the Europe-Kind map I ever made so I will stick to the same theme.

I will mainly focus the gameplay on both macro-army management, strategy, macro-economy management and a bit of micro. But, this is definitely NOT an historical map, I try to stay on the line as much as I can. Sometimes the gameplay needs to remove some historical facts, so I do it.

Looks like the Scandinavian countries are very appreciated. Unfortunately I can't put their capital in Denmark, so Kalmar Union is impossible. I'll stick to Norway/Sweden with Stockholm as Capital-city instead of Oslo.

I wont increase the timeline to the first world war =O I can only map medieval stuff.

Concerning starting nations, I can't add small countries. Each nations has 2 unique units plus a unique bonus, it makes LOTS of things to do for one country, and I should add lots of smaller ones ? No, too long and quite useless, what if a lot of people take all small kingdoms from one region ?

Riots ? There won't be anymore, sorry. I removed the influence system.

@SasuhKun: Stop talking everywhere of the BETA, I didnt even started the abilities, I have still so much to do >.< Moreover, I dont want to have 10 beta tester, I want a quick test of all the units, as we can see what unit is over-powerful etc...


I'll try to edit the first post soon. Thanks of your participation, I really need people to remind me I have work to do >.<

EDIT: First post edited.

Also for the beta, there only be northern unit available and there won't be bonus for nations yet.

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, the bonus is one of the things that might be unbalanced... but you'll add all in time I believe. Yeah, the influence system got removed for many complains about'em. And I keep saying to Goffterdom to add the Morale System xDD

 

[Centreri]

I liked the influence system. Will there be anything else somewhat similar to prevent rapid overexpansion?

 

[Goffterdom]

Of course, first I highly decreased the number of towns. I will also add neutral hostile to every none chosen nations.

The Capture System is totally changed, towns are now invulnerable. To take it you will have to build a "Garrison" next to it. This also slow expansion.

@Sasuhkun: The moral system is for another map, I won't add it to ETAOW.

 

[SasuhKun]

I know >_>

Delete Plus Edit Meant To Revive This Map From Thy Ashes:

Goffterdom? Any updates?




GOFFTERDOM D:

 

[terranempire]

Um, is this project even alive?

 

[SasuhKun]

It is, but Goffterdom is incredibly busy later on. If I only could keep it alive... I have time, but not skills. He have skills, but not the time.

 

[warman45]

this game (- influence system) reaks of overexpansionism. i think the real problem with the influence system was that only millitary units provided influence, that aside, there should be ways so that 2 nations regardless of size can field approximately the same sized armies, (obviously the big one gets more guys but there shouldn't be 3:1 odds) and the way a small nation is hurt is the fact that they would find it harder to replace troops one way to implement this is to have unit costs rise exponentially (1,2,4,8,16 although it would be more like 2,3,4.5,7,11,17,26 etc...)

 

[SasuhKun]

Actually, BEFORE goffterdom though on removing it, he though a lot more ways to get it. But he though it would be just better for everyone to remove it. When he's back, you can try to argue with him though.

 

[Goffterdom]

Hey everyone.

I never open World Editor for few months now... sorry that is not what you expected.

But I feel a remains of creativity inside of me, I want to use it for E:tAoW. So that I asked SasuhKun if there were any mapmakers in our clan (Artists of War). I need one partner actually, that can help me bringing back my faith and helping me for boring stuff. I also need something else, I need you !

I have few questions about the general gameplay that have to be discussed. SasuhKun, can you ask those questions to the Clan Members (that likes LoE) and bring me back the answers please ? It would be very useful

1. City taking system. What you prefer:
a. Old city taking system (Attack a city, down hit points to X to capture).
b. New city taking system (Build a garrison near a city after having destroyed your enemy's garrison to capture).
c. Another one city taking system (you can give suggestions).

2. Unit training system. What you prefer ?
a. New training system (When you train a unit, x are trained in the same time, regiment training system).
b. Regular training system (Train units one by one)

3. Trade system. Do you think the trade should have an important place in the game ? Do you think it can be a major source of income ? Do you find other applies to the trade in a game such E:tAoW ?

Note for the next question: Remember the Influence System and all its issues. I think to another way to prevent players to overexpand at start. The only other solution I found was to add Neutral Hostile defending every city and a kind of Hostile Base defending capitals or strategic point.
4. What's your point of view about the new solution ? Do you think you have a better idea ? If yes just tell me ! I'd be glad to listen to you.


I think that's all...

Thanks for your time and sorry for my slowness....

 

[SasuhKun]

Ok, shall do. And I already told you anyway, but... I can help you, if you teach me. (I'm already reading the tutorial forums, so I have a base where you (along with other teachers) a beautiful pyramid. Haha.)

 

[warman45]

i really think you should re-instate the influence system, last time you based influence around the size of your millitary, that was probably the biggest mistake. units should still give you influence, however you should have culture buildings that increase influence (perhaps they could cost money over time, like a tax.)

the unit training system can cause lag as-is, making units build in greater numbers is risky (although 3 units to a build might work.)

the garrison idea isn't that appealing to me, garisoning a city was as simple a matter as telling some retards to stand there and tell the townspeople they have a new manager. but here's an idea. when you go to war against a player you can conquer all his cities but instead of becoming usefull they become "occupied cities". when a war ends you have the option to buy or liberate cities (at your expense.) if you don't then the city returns to the other dude. (liberating cities makes them neutral hostile.)

 

[SasuhKun]

Goffterdom, is the current version unprotected? If not, can you give me a unprotected version? I'm going to learn map modding. One of my friends is going to teach him EVERYTHING he knows (almost a legacy). I'm taking tutorials, I am asking for unprotected versions, etc. So I MAY be able to continue the project myself.

 

[Goffterdom]

I dont want the project to be continued by another guy =O

I was asking for a map maker to help me

I dont really want to send you the LoE unprotected map, too many mistakes I did. But I can send you another map with better codes. But I have to warn you, I'm not so pro at map editing, lots of people here are incredibly better than me.

Concerning the Influence System I think there are already too many things players have to take in account (in-game: macro, micro, trade, alliance, expand, sea etc...) I'm affraid adding another system will just make the thing less clear ?

 

[SasuhKun]

On Solar Conquest, you begin on a planet. There are 5 mines, and two players on each planet. There are some creeps that can be taken out after you do a good army on the nearest mine, and heavy creeps on the middle mine. So yes, creeps near all the cities should stop overexpansion.

Well, either way, Destiny.Knight and I will help you on what you need.

 

[Goffterdom]

Oh really ? NICE, awesome, I think it will change my plans. Thanks a lot.

How can I contact both of you ? MSN ? That's the easier way IMO.

I'll tell you what I need, not hard stuff

Also tell him how thankful I am.

 

[SasuhKun]

Sure sure. Ahn... I believe you have my msn lol

 

[terranempire]

From my experience, placing creeps is not a reliable system at all (and yes, I have played Solar Conquest, those creeps are easy).
Though one thing that I suggest that you could add is some kind of 'militancy' system.

Each city can have maybe some sort of item that indicates how much the people hates you (the player).
If it gets above a certain number, it gives a chance for the people to revolt, could make it a pain to get a big empire.

 

[Goffterdom]

That solution is very... unexpected and useful. I'm going to think about it. Thanks terran.

 

[terranempire]

Well, helping people is never bad, eh?
I really don't want to see projects put into the grave, nor have that horrible 'place creeps' system (I have tried it myself too).