Europe: The Art of War

[PurplePoot]

You're missing the Vosges and the mountains near Portugal, but it's otherwise nice.

 

[Goffterdom]

Do you know someone skilled enough in terraining able to give a deeper feedback concerning this ? (I ask you because you may know far more people than me).

EDIT: And thanks for comment, I'll do those hills soon.

@All: Do you think I should use custom tree models (imported models) ?

 

[PurplePoot]

Eh, the better terrainers I know are too concerned with making eyecandy to do anything useful and thus have very little experience with ingame terrain (see: terrain forum, for example).

 

[SasuhKun]

If wc3 have all the trees that are in Europe and North Africa climate, then I think it is not needed. Would only occupy more filesize. And I meant that when you choose the terrain for a tile, sometimes it is too big for what you really do want. In your map for example, the beaches are greater than they should, in my opinion. And there are some places that can't be used for a port for any means, there are? (But of course, there is more land available to ports, and transports unloading their cargo, etc, than the not possible terrain.)

 

[Chizume]

@All: Do you think I should use custom tree models (imported models) ?

It depends on what you focus on. If you're mostly looking for a fun and easy game you should stick to wc3 trees. In case you would want your terrain to be a bit more advanced and realistic (and go with imported trees) you shouldn't just import a type of tree and spam it all over like the ordinary wc3forest, but do it more realistic with doodads and etc. Different kinds of terrain suit different kinds of map don't you agree? This one could be cool with very realistic terrain, but it may be a lot to do.

Yours,
Chizume

 

[Goffterdom]

I'm going to make trees, does it looks good to you: http://www.efi.int/files/images/projects/580_euromap/eumapii_for610.jpg ?

 

[SasuhKun]

I don't get it... what exactly is that?

 

[Chizume]

I'm going to make trees, does it looks good to you: http://www.efi.int/files/images/projects/580_euromap/eumapii_for610.jpg ?

Yep, looks like a good trustworthy European forest-map

 

[SasuhKun]

You attached the top view of the map to a information table?

 

[PurplePoot]

You attached the top view of the map to a information table?

No, that's an actual map of Europe depicting tree density.

 

[SasuhKun]

I though it was that, but didn't make sense. Cause... there is no need to post it. Is there?

 

[Goffterdom]

I'm going make the trees, I mean for a real europe map so I need a real map of tree density. Logical for me

Thanks for answers gonna use this map

 

[SasuhKun]

Oh. Well, since you're doing the real europe map, it is quite obvious to check all of geografic maps there are about Europe. Normal one with cliffs, florest density, climate, flora, etc.

 

[warman45]

i would like to point out that tree density in the time period of the game should be higher (especially in the UK) due to the lack of industrial development.

 

[SasuhKun]

He knows that. I tried to find a atlas with historical features, but wans't possible. And google earth just went back in 1930. And it is good, even... cause the place where the trees WERE and were cut down for industrial motives make a good space for later buildings (which means your constructions will have basicly the same place as historical.. more or less.)

 

[Chizume]

i would like to point out that tree density in the time period of the game should be higher (especially in the UK) due to the lack of industrial development.

It's a good point.

Almost all of Europe (and the world) would be covered in great forests without human impact. Only places where it's too dry would be deserts, rest would be all forest or at least plains with a high level of growth. Yes, I believe during this age there were a lot of trees, but also a high amount of fields (not as many as today of course). I guess you'll have to guess without a good map; I'd rather put too many trees than too few.

Yours,
Chizume

 

[warman45]

the only reason i point this out is that most of this industrial growth happened starting in the late 1700's. after you're game. i wouldn't simply point out something that obvious for no reason.

EDIT:unless i was drunk

 

[SasuhKun]

Agreed with Chizume. And the game actually ends near that... hmm. Well, if he put too much he remove some in the next map. Nothing hard.

Edit: How is it going? I can't wait... 2 months have passed Ò.ó

lol

Edit: Edit the first post... the terrain for sure ins't 0%

 

[Goffterdom]

If someone can help me...

What I need for now:
A map of the medieval towns (they probably weren't the same than now, maybe with a different name too).

 

[SasuhKun]

Map of Medieval towns is somewhat... rare. It looks like they would be locked somewhere in Vatican lol. But I'll search.

Edit: Be more specific. You want the map of capitals of the countries on the list on 1600? Or the overall arrangement of towns? If it is overall, they were evolved from feuds to burgs, and usualy there is a castle in the center, on a hill, out of town or not. The town is walled and may have more walls inside of it, separating the social classes. There are many arrangements of walls and towns, but I'd say that Orleans on AoE II on Joanna D'arc campaign is a pretty example of a good raised town.

 

[Goffterdom]

I need a map of the major medieval cities.

Progress Report
First draw of the regular unit set (Infantry, Cavalry, Archery). I tried to stick to the same theme for all units.

Pictures

Names from left to right.


EDIT:

I found this:

Europe Medieval Map

 

[SasuhKun]

You need a MAP, or a TOP view? It gotta be really specific.

 

[Chizume]

Looks like a sustainable map you have there. Perfect for the purpose. Imho you should make good use of those commerce routes

Yours,
Chizume

 

[SasuhKun]

Hmm, like roads? :O

 

[Goffterdom]

@Chizume: Exactly, I think I will add Sea Commercial Routes (but I dont know how it gonna be).

@Sasuhkun: There wont be any "road", in the land you will be able to build Trade Counters which allow trading with other country.

Concerning the capture system, I wanted to make something like that:
In every town you have a "Garrison" which can train or hire several units. To take a town you have to take down the Garrison then rebuild your own one near the city. So that city are invulnerable. What's your pov ?



EDIT: I have some problems for capital-cities.

Capital-City

France -> Paris
Castilla y Léon -> Toledo
Morocco -> Rabat
England -> London
Scandinavia (United Sweden and Norway because of lack of room) -> Opslo (Oslo)
Holy Roman Empire -> Magdebukg or Hamburg or Augsburg (3 different locations and major cities)
Byzantine Empire -> Constantinople
Hungary -> Buda (Budapest, apparently there were Buda AND Pest near each other)
Lithuania -> Breslau or Cracow ?
Russian States -> Nishni Novgorod
Turkey -> Ankara
Moslem Sultanate -> Cairo
Tunisia -> Kairwen
Persia -> Bagdad

I'm using this map:

MAP

EDIT:

Progress Report

Map

[/URL][/IMG]

Also, concerning unique units, I was planning to make 2 unique units per nation and to make them replace the regular units (for instance France wont be able to train Knights but only Chilvarous Knights). But I lack ideas.

Unique Units

Castile: Conquistador, Mounted Gunner (Need a name)

France: Chilvarous Knight, ??

England: Longbowman, ??

Holy Roman Empire: Teutonic Knight, Huskarl ?

Hungary: Infantry (need a unique name)

Byzantine Empire: Cataphract, Legionary

Papal States: Templar, ??

Lithuania: Huskarl, ??

Russian States: Infantry (need a unique name), ??

Scandinavia (Sweden and Norway): Frigate (need a unique name), Warrior (need a unique name)

Seljuk Turks: Janissary (Gunner) and Janissary (Swords)

Mamluke Sultanate: Mamluke, ??

Persia: War Elephant, Skirmish Cavalry (need a name)

Morocco: Beldouin Mounter Archer, Raider (need a unique name)

Tunisia: Beldouin Mounter Archer, ??

Thanks.

 

[SasuhKun]

For the capital cities, it is actually kinda simple. Where did their king, ruler, etc; lived at that time? Usualy rulers live at least next to their capital cities. And a example of my claim is that when the portuguese (written wrong I believe) emperor moved to Brazil, Rio de Janeiro, it automatically turned to be the capital of the whole empire, even if Brazil was just a colony at that time. And for unique units.. Castilla: Mounted Gunner could be... Comodoros? For some reason, that name just bumped my head. I'll try to find the name I mean it, because I think it is not that one. Ah yes, commodore? Admiral? Something like that. For France, again, Musketeers? xD Well, you're french, so you should know better. England... perhaps scottish users of longswords? Lithuania and HRE are somehow so similar.. so it is hard to find 4 unique units for them. HRE should keep... the Huskarls and perhaps the teutonic knights. Lithuania should have... what do I remember of the crusades.. damnit... Oh right. I found something. The greatest battle of Poland Lithuania, against Teutonic forces. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald They mention the usage of heavy cavalry, leaden by the Polish king, and light cavalry, leaden by the Lithuanian Grand Duke. Apparently, the light cavalry purpose was to hit and run tactics, using great swords and killing many using one slash, then going away and away, and the heavy cavalry flank. And as a distraction for the breakout of the heavy knight, which began the main blood bath. It is a bit contraditory to your ideas of reposing units, but perhaps ONE could replace, and another could be bought normaly. Whatever you decide. To the next!

Hungary: For the infantry, at that time, there was a ruthless Black Army, with a armor darker than night and swords sharper than death. They could also have a early siege unit: Something like the first siege unit, but with Siege attack, not lance. Or perhaps Transylvania men, after all, at that age, Transylvania belonged to Hungary. They were fierce woodsmen, and it is no surprise that even if vampires and werewolves did exist, they fought so well.

Naples. I did not found anything. Not a damn thing. So, templars would replace Crusader, and I have really no idea of any other unit for good n old Italy.

Russian States... Cossaks and their famous infantry, always based in trenchs against the Mongol war aren't enough? Just put the translation of frigate for swedish, and swedish for men or brave men. For most desertish countries, I do not remember exactly which countries, but... there are bodyguards (yes, bodyguards. There is something in the Hungarian battle. Not only chinese used those, african used those too), nomads, raiders... I don't have much info on africans.

Edit: Garrison idea. How exactly it is going to work? And some ideas, that work even if I don't know exactly how it work:

Upgrade to Castle: Better Units, etc etc.

When you capture, there are two units to be made: Garrison Builder and the normal Builder. Garrison builder is self explanatory. He would not cost any food nor gold and would die (or be transformed into a normal builder) after the Garrison is made.

 

[Gallin]

I think you should add in the Kingdom of Ireland

 

[Brombie]

I've spend a moment in building this table of unique units, since medieval and it's history sort of fascinates me. It's not really completely full, but I hope it can be of use or is useful for your project. You can see I've switched one nation into "Livonia", it's because I prefer it as a medieval term for the nation and I think it's what it was called during that time, try google it. I'll finish the table on a later time.

The bolded typings are the suggested ones.

Castile	Conquistador (Ranged infantry)	Jinete (Cavalry)
France	Chevalier	Musketeer (Ranged infantry)
England	Longbowman	Yeoman (Light infantry)
Holy Roman Empire	Teutonic Knight	Landsknecht (Light infantry)
Hungary	Infantry	Hussar (Light cavalry)
Byzantine Empire	Cataphract	Legionary
Papal States	Templar
Livonia	Huskarl	Sword Brother (Heavy infantry)
Russian States	Cossack (Various/Heavy rider)
Scandinavia	Longship (Light naval vessel)	Viking (Infantry)
Seljuk Turks	Janissary (Gunner/Swords)	Bulgar (Infantry/Various)
Mamlule Sultanate	Mamluke
Persia	War Elephant	Spahbod (Heavy cavalry)
Morocco	Beldouin Mounted Archer
Tunisia	Beldouin Mounted Archer

Also, will you include spellcraft? Naturally if you stick the spellcrafting towards the religious course, most of them will certainly be the holy sort.
Perhaps if you'd dig into the mystic beliefs of the medieval ages, you'd find that e.g. Ireland has a rich mythology of druidism - which is the spellcraft of nature.
With the mixture of medieval beliefs of all sorts and WarCraft spellcraft, you could give your map an unique combat experience.

EDIT: I didn't read SasuhKun's before I posted, but it seems that we have suggested some similar units, interesting.

 

[Goffterdom]

Omfg.

Sasuhkun your post was very useful.
Brombie your post is priceless !
+rep to both, especially Brombie

"Chevalier" is the french term for "Knight", so Chilvarous Knight sounds more unique.
Conquistador -> Ranged infantry ? You mean gunners ?
Jinete -> Mounted Hand Canoneer ?
Janissary (Gunner/Sword) you mean the unit can switch both ? If so Turks would have 4 different unique units ? Too much for one country...

What do you mean by various ? Various uses ?


I dont think I will add Ireland nor spells. I want to stick with medieval theme and medieval battles. Also I dont think that 'massive battles + spells' is unique

 

[SasuhKun]

Yay!

Ireland is too small and did not fight at all... aside of course the incredible lack of economy. All of the countries were once in a time the greatest. Infortunaly, not Ireland.

Various? Where? Janissarys you mean?

By the way, Goffterdom, have you played a game named Helm's Deep? I believe everyone saw at least once or have read LotR. Infortunaly, I did not saw the movie, but I'm reading. I'm almost on the end.

Well, it is a GREAT map. Not only by all its effects and sounds and all, but by their gameplay. It envolves a full scale war assault, AND strategy. I think there are various things you could see there. Even if it is only one battle, it still have lots of things. For example, MANY of the units are able to trade swords for bows. Of course, that's up to you, but... well, it is only one of many incredible features that make it a great game. You should check it yourself to see what I mean.

 

[Gallin]

no ireland o man

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, you can still choose England. They usually get Ireland and it is almost the same thing.

 

[Gallin]

Being england and conquering ireland is not the same thing. You wana be ireland and conquer england

 

[SasuhKun]

Ah. LoL. What if England is taken?

@topic: Change the Map Progress, please.

 

[Bettaxx]

I read someone wanted a picture of a medieval town; most I can do you for you is a manor: Linkage
A good cavalry or foot soldier for the Russians would be the Дружи́на, Druzhýna: Druzhina
And again about the Huskarls, they're Anglo-Saxon/Scandinavian. Livonia was a German crusader state that became part of the land of the Teutonic Order. Lithuania, in Livonia, would be a good choice for a replacement if you want; it was one of the last pagan kingdoms of Europe. Info- Livonia, Livonian Order, Lithuania
Good luck with the project

 

[SasuhKun]

It was Poland-Lithuania, but he changed to Livonia recently. (Up there.)

 

[Goffterdom]

I never said I did Sasuke

 

[Bettaxx]

Also, for the Seljuks I just noticed the unit Bulgar; the Bulgars are a people, and they were mostly from above the Black Sea shifting to the west of it by the 900s-ish. A good idea that can be a counter to crusader units for all Muslim is the Muslim raider called a Ghazi, or Ghazw, whatever you want to call them. English texts might refer to them as Razzias; the word was borrowed from the French, if it seems familiar. They were Islamic raiders who worked in corporations of sorts, it seems. Quite interesting, as they could fill any role you need in a special national unit; each could have been armed differently depending on where they came from: Ghazis

Also, if it helps here's the Unit Planner for Medieval II Total War if you need inspiration! Linkage. Also, it's a 8.5 MB PDF file, just a head's up. Black icon is Holy Roman Empire units, dark red is Venice, lighter red is England, blue is France, yellow is Spain. Historical accuracy is alright with most of the units. Another way to see them is this other site (half in English, half in... I don't even know) is more complete: M2:TW Complete Unit List


The Papal States would have had access to most mercenary units of Italy, same as any Italian state/city-state/duchy/kingdom/fief/etc.

I still want to see some Mongol-rapacious-invasion action; neutral hostiles who spawn at the edge of the map and move steadily into Europe, maybe?

 

[SasuhKun]

There's an idea being evolved that the countries that are not chosen turn into neutral hostile and attack everyone else. And it wouldn't be fair for Russia, Spain would never be attacked by the Mongols xD Thanks for all the help Bettaxx o/

 

[Bettaxx]

There's an idea being evolved that the countries that are not chosen turn into neutral hostile and attack everyone else. And it wouldn't be fair for Russia, Spain would never be attacked by the Mongols xD Thanks for all the help Bettaxx o/

Haha it wasn't fair for Russia IRL either. Oh well, maybe have a "Realistic Game" option, where actual historical events occur. Add a little flavor, eh? I can just imagine England and Scandinavia allying with Russia against the vast Mongol horde.

 

[Goffterdom]

Thanks Bettaxx for what you did. +rep

I think I'm going to remove the influence system.

Dont think I'm not taking your comments in account, I'm just terraining for now so I'm waiting to summarize all the informations I have.

I will need someone to fix my english mistakes, who's good enough / English ?

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, REALLY, with all the changes and things on influence system, it would be too easy. And perhaps too troublesome for some players. Well, it is up to you. I still think you should add the Morale System. Hihi. And really, there are some HUGE typos at LoE 3.0 In the LOADING SCREEN, there is ennemies. I saw one at that harbor too I think.

 

[Brombie]

"Chevalier" is the french term for "Knight", so Chilvarous Knight sounds more unique.
Conquistador -> Ranged infantry ? You mean gunners ?
Jinete -> Mounted Hand Canoneer ?
Janissary (Gunner/Sword) you mean the unit can switch both ?

Alright, perhaps the correctness lies in that of a french knight, in any literaly case.
Conquistador means 'conqueror' which was used during the colonial times, after the middle ages. So, it offers variation of use and not just firearm. Spanish terms can also be used for other classes, because I can't find any specific unique arms of combat from medieval Spain other then political ones. However, 'campeador' could be used for a footed or mounted champion of spanish force, which El Cid was entitled.

Furthermore, during the reconquista, royal spanish knights were common on the battlefields. Some wielding regular heavy mail, kiteshield and longsword, others were ''hidalgos', or the castillan 'infanzones' (sing. 'infanzón').
There are also oppertunities to implement christian units from the background of the inquisition.

Jinetes (also 'ginete, 'genitour') were developed on the Iberian peninsula as a counterpart of the swift riders of the Moors. A light cavalry with javelin or sword.

Instead of having two different units with the same characteristics but with different weapons, you could use the druidic shapeshifting to have both on the same unit. Or two attack variations, leaving an extra spot for a different unique unit.

If so Turks would have 4 different unique units ? Too much for one country...

No, I mean that Turks would end up with the regular two unique units. I've researched a little more, and replace 'bulgar' in my table with 'hashshashin', muslim assassins! Thanks to some random medieval RTS, which are a bunch.

What do you mean by various ? Various uses ?

Yes.

 

[SasuhKun]

My original language have the same origin as the spanish: latin. So I can understand a thing or two. Hidalgos were actually lords, like... feudal lords, that rule their feud and have vassals, etc. But since they fight on war too (when we study feudal age, everyone study that system. A great lord pledges vassalage to its king, and a smaller lord pledges vassalage to the 1st, etc.)

Yes, Brombie, I've saw that weapon changing system on Helm's Deep. I've talked about it before, even. But it would be perhaps too op xDD Jinetes would be cavalry with lance type of damage you mean? Since they're supposed to counter the Moorish riders...

By the way, I'm not totally sure, but did you played the map before? Lords of Europe I mean, the predecessor of this. If so, it would be somewhat easier to speak on its terms (saying lance type damage for jinetes for example.) I've also already suggested the implementing assassins, on a long time ago, and for a specific country as a special unit. Goffterdom didn't say anything about it, as far as I can remember.

Edit: Goffterdom, change the Map Total Progressing Summary...

 

[marc_21]

cool.. its finish?

 

[Goffterdom]

The project's not dead !
I'm still working on it, I'll post a Project Report tomorrow.

 

[SasuhKun]

Yay.

(That means changing the Map Total Progressing Summary right?)

Edit: Have a release date by now? Perhaps a beta version or something? Just do not release when you finish. I recommend testing/editing process 4 or 5 times.

 

[Goffterdom]

I was planning to ask for beta tester. Will be you be there ?

 

[SasuhKun]

Well, I do try to enter every single day. On mondays and wednesdays, I'll have like a great part of my late afternoon free, until the beginning of night. (Jiu Jitsu) Friday the same thing, but after Jiu Jitsu (free after 11:00 here) I'll be able to play a little. Tuesday, I'll be off until 08:00 pm here, thursday I'll have some time in early afternoon (HERE. GMT -3) Weekend I'll also be able to join for quite some time, but the exactly hour ins't definitive.

And 1/4 of the BETA map is completed so far? I though the terrain was almost... and the object at least ins't that hard. I think. And triggering is fast right? Or not?

 

[Goffterdom]

I'm planing to make a 4 playable beta map. It means I will need 3 beta tester, SasuhKun said he's in, who else ?

Thanks by advance.