DotA vs DOTA 2

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I really feel Valve just farmed the original idea for money. It's pretty much the same with new graphics and some changes to hero abilities and fog mechanics.

I don't see how they could have done otherwise.
DotA's playerbase is well known for very hostile kneejerk reactions toward any change no matter how large or small.
 
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I really feel Valve just farmed the original idea for money. It's pretty much the same with new graphics and some changes to hero abilities and fog mechanics.
You might not be too deep into DotA, but for ~90% of DotA players that was exactly the point. They want a game thats basically the same.
 
You might not be too deep into DotA, but for ~90% of DotA players that was exactly the point. They want a game thats basically the same.

well I started playing it back on 2005 and I really expected Dota 2 to bring something new/different. obviously keeping the same "hardcore" formula.
 
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well I started playing it back on 2005 and I really expected Dota 2 to bring something new/different. obviously keeping the same "hardcore" formula.

2005 is a long time ago but I can not deduce from that how much you played or how knowledgeable you are about the whole environment. Please mind that I did not mean to put you down in any way.

For me it was the logical step Valve had to do, as wc3 DotA had a massive player base and needed an own platform/update to be able to reach even greater masses (and very importantly also mass media) and generate a huge load of money. Additionally Valve got IceFrog, the best starting advertisement you can get for an overhauled DotA 1. To draw over pros and masses, not splitting the player base and actually making a good game taking the old one as a guide you make a successor rather than a new game.

The big mistake they made is starting so late and being so slow. Would DotA 2 have been ready in 2010 it would be a much larger hit today, as mostly LoL took so many potential players.
 
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Pros of DotA WC3 :
- The original idea which is based mainly on AoS SC3, but with new gameplay and everything
- Multiple heroes, let's say you won't get bored.
- Mush Items, sush variance, wow.
Cons of DotA :
- Many bugs , especially when two cast two spells to each other, it really sucks sometimes. For example: Silencer silences riki and riki smokes the place, both should lose abilities, no they don't.
- Fog bugs, much more.
Pros of DotA 2 :
- Better graphics
- New Heroes
- New Gameplay improvements.
Cons of DotA 2 :
- It's not a new idea as well as League of Legends, they both stole idea.
- They should have kept some old famous heroes and added the new ones at least.
- Omg it is updated almost everyday, screw it.
- Dota 1 update is 8 mb, while dota 2... screw it.
- It's always 5v5, they should've added two new slots at least.
 
Hmn LoL did make some things of their own, plus it was made by the creator of dota all-stars, aka Guinso. I really liked loL's approach atleast from a design point of view. Many Dota players look at it as casual due to the fact that it has no denies and it's less punishing. In my own opinion, that reduced the game's intensity and also made people take the game less seriously, except in ranked.

I played Dota for 5 years, LoL for 2 years and really got bored due to the long games, the laning phase (last hitting may be skill and all, but it's boring for me) and the community. I really hated show offs that sucked and blamed everything on the team. I also hated the idea of banlists in the original dota even though I never got banned, thanks god that was changed in DotA 2 to a less biased system.

I'm looking forward more into HotS now. I really love the meta blizzard has made. specialy the talent system, it solves the old problem that the Item system in both DotA and loL had. Item balance was one of the biggest problems. I also love the fact they provide multiple maps, it feels more like a merge of MOBA style games and Starcraft macro strategy and obviously the short games. I'm no longer a teenager so I have few time to play.
 
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It was weird making the jump to Dota 2, but after the adjustment period I'm all for it. The updated systems make the game breezier and more user friendly, and its all wrapped in a pretty package of slick graphics.

My only complaint is that I am still lacking pitlord. Also ranked is a joke.
 
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I like the way they've done Dota 2. It is beautiful, and for most of the heroes they've really managed to capture their very soul and looks.

However, I got the feeling the community has almost ruined Dota 2 for me completely. That is not Valve's fault, most likely only the fact that people nowdays are, well, despicable. Especially on the internet.

My biggest complaint about it is the latest way the game seem to be heading. Every patch is like 200mb, and 197 mb of those is cosmetics and items. I don't want my Dota 2 to be over 25gb, it's ridiculous. Some of the latest cosmetics are also getting out of hand. They no longer care to keep the same color scheme as the original hero's looks, and they've changed abilities to look like something of a whole other hero.
Sure you usually see what hero and realize what spell it is, but that can lead to like a 0.5 second of hesitiation and that stuff can be devastating in a game like Dota.

I've actually been playing more LoL than Dota 2 lately, as it seems less punishing when you lose, and I also like the way how you have to aim all the abilities and such, you need to think with every spell rather than throw in a Sven Stun and hope it hits good.

But now that the new Dota 2 patch has arrived, things will change quite drastically. I believe it might be very different, so perhaps I'll enjoy Dota 2 more, we shall see.
 
I'll talk from an artist's point of view

one thing that really shocks me about dota 2 is that it's a bit harder to distinguish or highlight heros. it's a bit confusing compared to dota 1, where atleast some heros had glow or you could distinguish them easily on sight. It's more that i feel the art is not contrasting correctly heros from theme. LoL also has this problem but not as much as the creeps in LoL are very contrasting so it feels easier to distinguish things. In dota 1 there were bright teamcolors atleast so it was easy to recognize things. Dota 2 lacks this artistic contrast. I think Sc2 had issues of unit contrasting at alpha stage too. They fixed that by doing 2 things, reduce teamcolors (way too much) and defining racial and unit themes better and changing the way they used shaders. For instance, protoss use more self illumination, terrans used more edge defining specularity and zergs depend more on shading and smoother specularity.

Talking artisticly, i feel Dota 2 rushed their hero design too fast and some heros don't feel that well designed in artistic terms. It obviosly shows how little experience Valve had with RTS games (dota is ARTS/MOBA a subgenre), compared to blizzard where wc3 artistic themes were very clear for each unit. (7 years development does make a difference, the polish is extremely important from an artistic point of view)

Dota 2, however, does some things correctly. Heroes in general are darker on botton and brighter on top, this helps contrast them for a top view. Also, I think Dota 2 started better in defining an artistic theme than LoL, where they are struggling to standarized their art right now.
 

Rui

Rui

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I don't see how they could have done otherwise.
DotA's playerbase is well known for very hostile kneejerk reactions toward any change no matter how large or small.
The costumer is always right, heh?
There was plenty to be done. DotA 1 just stuffed in more and more heroes without balancing them properly or giving them all mechanics and abilities that require skill to use. I'll leave this to the sticky thread, however.

(...) Many Dota players look at it as casual due to the fact that it has no denies and it's less punishing. In my own opinion, that reduced the game's intensity (...)
I agree. The lack of creep denial was a letdown for me.

I played Dota for 5 years, LoL for 2 years and really got bored due to the long games, the laning phase (last hitting may be skill and all, but it's boring for me) and the community. I really hated show offs that sucked and blamed everything on the team. I also hated the idea of banlists in the original dota even though I never got banned, thanks god that was changed in DotA 2 to a less biased system.
I can fully attest for DotA 2 community being pretty terrible. Also, maybe it's just the times changing, but even though I remember DotA 1 players being flammer brats, it ended up being fun because of how ridiculous they were. StarCraft II and DotA 2 players though... it's horribly frightening how they keep attempting to push their broken logic into you and how (especially in DotA 2) they're totally beyond help.
As for LoL, I played a few games against bots and then 1 or 2 real matches. I met an occasional flamer, but, perhaps due to never going beyond some starter bracket, I felt the community was much more friendly. For instance, just the first time I played Tarik, I had no idea what I was doing or if I was even purchasing the correct gear, but still I received a complement and one or two of those "commends" at the end of the game. I remember getting quite a few during the time I was there. In DotA 2, after hundreds of games, I have around 50 commends or so.

The lack of banlists is okay, but DotA 2 really needs a surrender option. Especially to stop people from feasting on the pool.

I'll talk from an artist's point of view

one thing that really shocks me about dota 2 is that it's a bit harder to distinguish or highlight heros. it's a bit confusing compared to dota 1, where atleast some heros had glow or you could distinguish them easily on sight. It's more that i feel the art is not contrasting correctly heros from theme. (...)
Agreed. =P The first time I played DotA 2 was a huge confusion. I remember letting an enemy Sand King pass by me because I had no idea he was an enemy xD.
 
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The lack of banlists is okay, but DotA 2 really needs a surrender option. Especially to stop people from feasting on the pool.
.

I think everyone who longs for a surrender option should just let it go. There is never going to be one. Valve has explicitly stated that.

However, they did buff the fountain in this latest patch, so the spawn-killing will basically cease now. (it is now uphill, it got longer range, and bigger aoe for true sight)
 
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Valve did a great job of replacing dota 1 with dota 2. Its a masterpiece and for me the best game of all time~huehue. Great graphics, loads of fun, internationals with 10 millions of dolars. Plus you can't forget the unforgetable russians. I mean learning russian from a game is bloody impressive. Cyka.
 
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I think that last patch makes biggest changes on game, since by impacting economy of the game, it drastically changes in game mechanics. And by changing that, since armor type and dmg changes doesn't have effect on dota they made a change that impacts the game more than any other since dota 2 went out. The influence of almost all heroes on the winning or losing the game has changed, and if they want to balance that they shoud seriously buff early game heroes, and/or give them more late game presence which would also change the momentary concept of the game since division of heroes to late/mid/early game was the most accurate one. But now all early game heroes are only worth to be played as supports, and buying supportive items is now the way of game-play that benefits the team most from them, and mid game heroes can't be strong carries anymore. Personally, I think that all things are good except that exp/gold balance change, which could also be good if they found another way which early game heroes could influence the game more instead of snowballing. A lot of people that I know have stopped playing or play less often because of that. Mistakes are now punished much more severely which sounds good, but that's only true if they are made by better team, and in late game. If the team that is worse makes mistake that mistake is much much much less noticeable and has much less impact on the game, so as mistakes in early game are. That makes farming, supporting, laning phase, picking, item builds and other strategic elements of the game much less important than they were. if you don't want to take altest patch into consideration i think that both games are pretty much the same, although some things are different in DotA 2 because of the way of realization of spells that were made on one game engine on another, except in dota 2 everything is somewhat slower, like the map and units are bigger but they ms is the same ...
 
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(...)one thing that really shocks me about dota 2 is that it's a bit harder to distinguish or highlight heros.(...)

^This.

Also, lets not forget that Icefrog is working for Valve as a lead designer, so the changes should be with his agreenment. That being said, I dislike some of those, mainly the style of some heroes making them unrecongnisable (although I understand its for copywrite reasons, but it still drives me mad). I still think that the whole deal with the dota-allstars site was a d!ck move by pendragon >_<.
 
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I'm not sure, but i heard that Icefrog isn't lead designer anymore, at least unofficialy. When i sayed everything is slower i was thinking about animations. But it could be that they are just easier to spot because of better graphics. Like i mean in dota on wc3 it was much much harder to last hit creeps at least for me, like really everything is slower for 10 % all projectiles, arrows, Hp bar is bigger and that
 
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Although, now when I think it could be because I played dota 2 on a bigger screen :/ or because i played music in steam browser (it's really bad :p )
But really after latest patch supports have much much less win/lose influence on the game which really annoys me in ranked games. i mean the whole point of ranked games is that you play more often because when you get bored you are gonna play just to get better rank. Before I wasn't occupied with that and was only playing 4 fun. Before I would be happy if we lost but played 5v5 all the time. Now I just want to win. I deleted dota 2 because of that, although more and more people play it, but it just don't feel the same (Like in that parody of counting stars :D) now you play with no name people that don't speak english at all (I ain't saying Russians) And if you think about it, your gameplay is advancing much more slower because you play with people that are good as you, but rarely with someone much better.
 

Deleted member 219079

D

Deleted member 219079

DotA vs DOTA 2
league-of-legends-logo1.jpg


Playing that game with friends on skype can't be beaten :) Dota 2 is too serious and competitive and includes serious imbalances, whereas Dota is running under W3, which is an outdated game.
 
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"DotA is for men, LoL is for boys"

Actually DotA and LoL are for everyone to play. Because of the pride of both DotA players and LoL players these two types of gamers never agree on such things. If they put their differences aside maybe all of us can enjoy the game. I used to play LoL and I admit that it's just the same as DotA and DotA 2. Who knows if a DotA players plays LoL he'll enjoy it.

As for the whole DotA vs DotA 2 thing: DotA 2 will never be popular if DotA was never made. So to those who say that DotA is old and its less than DotA 2, please respect DotA.
 
lets put it like this:
"DotA is for men, LoL is for boys"

This is worst than the Rugby vs American football fans so let's stay on topic.

I think another big problem with DotA 2 is how they adress the meta. Keeping the same old Wc3 stats formula is confusing for such games. In ARTS/MOBAs/Hero Brawlers you need to build a hero along 30 minutes. You got very few time for math so it's discouraging for new players. A thing like strength is your primary attribute and it gives damage which is based in a luck factor (dice attack system) makes the game also big math bet when you start combining everything. That systems works better in RPGs and MMORPGs where you got plenty of more time to think things through.

I know people wanted the same dota but really they could have simplified some things without taking off the competitive aspect and easing that learning curve.

Actually DotA and LoL are for everyone to play. Because of the pride of both DotA players and LoL players these two types of gamers never agree on such things. If they put their differences aside maybe all of us can enjoy the game. I used to play LoL and I admit that it's just the same as DotA and DotA 2. Who knows if a DotA players plays LoL he'll enjoy it.

Exactly. I've played both and even though I find DotA more intense, I find LoL more fun. I think people should stop the fanatisms and just play and enjoy the games. There's also Heroes of the Storm coming by and it looks like a heck of fun.
 
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Playing that game with friends on skype can't be beaten :) Dota 2 is too serious and competitive and includes serious imbalances, whereas Dota is running under W3, which is an outdated game.

I disagree to this.
The reason why players bet thousands of money in a DotA / DotA 2 match is because it is so balanced. Will you bet your money in a fight between a disabled rat and a full grown tiger? No. We bet because we know that the result of a match depends on the player. It's just a matter of countering. I've been playing DotA since year 2006, but I never complained about imbalance when I lose a match. I only used "imba" as an expression. I think you only said that it's imbalanced because you only played DotA a very very few times + you liked LoL. And you judged it already. In short, biased.
LoL is good, but I can't say it's better than DotA, and vice versa. It's just a matter of taste, and depends on what game is played by most of your friends.
 
The reason why players bet thousands of money in a DotA / DotA 2 match is because it is so balanced. Will you bet your money in a fight between a disabled rat and a full grown tiger? No. We bet because we know that the result of a match depends on the player.

Exactly... No matter how good a hero is, if the skill level of the players vary greatly, the good hero can still lose. :)

It's just a matter of countering.

Yeah, and in my circle of friends, I'm the one person tasked with developing counter tactics. XD

Also, the Thread is DotA vs DotA 2...

How much has the game changed, in terms of gameplay, since DotA WarCraft III map?

What do you like in DOTA 2 (as a game and as opposed to DotA 1) and what do you dislike?

I personally like how it seems more fast-paced to me.

What I dislike for one is that the models seem to blend so much with the terrain that I sometimes find it hard to determine where the heroes are.
 
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The beauty of dota was in it's complexity.With wc3 stats you have 2 lvls of stats. Agi str and int is one level which directly influences the other lvl as dmg mana hp ... Items in dota have much more possibilities should you buy pure as or agi which will increase a little bit of your armor and dmg also. To me personally DotA is so much better than other similar games due to the fact that accept action elements on which games like lol and HoS are revolving mostly it has quite a lot of strategic elements in it. Like choosing items which you should buy, and the list of items is much more interesting in dota, in lol you always go for the same build. Similar to what people nowadays do in DotA 2, and that's one of the reasons why I deleted it. Choosing heroes is also important strategic element because in dota winning and losing is determined mostly by teamplay and synchronization between teammates, and so on. While in LoL and similar games everything revolves around action and games are very simple due to that in dota accept the action game revolves around choices that you make with heroes, line-ups, items, ward placement, strategy (farming pushing ganking etc.),timing and all that which I call the "strategic elements"
 
The beauty of dota was in it's complexity.With wc3 stats you have 2 lvls of stats. Agi str and int is one level which directly influences the other lvl as dmg mana hp ... Items in dota have much more possibilities should you buy pure as or agi which will increase a little bit of your armor and dmg also. To me personally DotA is so much better than other similar games due to the fact that accept action elements on which games like lol and HoS are revolving mostly it has quite a lot of strategic elements in it. Like choosing items which you should buy, and the list of items is much more interesting in dota, in lol you always go for the same build. Similar to what people nowadays do in DotA 2, and that's one of the reasons why I deleted it. Choosing heroes is also important strategic element because in dota winning and losing is determined mostly by teamplay and synchronization between teammates, and so on. While in LoL and similar games everything revolves around action and games are very simple due to that in dota accept the action game revolves around choices that you make with heroes, line-ups, items, ward placement, strategy (farming pushing ganking etc.),timing and all that which I call the "strategic elements"

I completely disagree in this. LoL has the same strategic elements (items, heros, jungle, wards, etc). HotS in other hand has very different meta and is way more teamplay and strategic oriented. Instead of items there are talents and you need to make the right decisions at the correct time, you just can't pull back. Strategy involves a lot of objective control, split pushing, xp concurrent farming, map awareness (no wards, means you better watch what you are doing or keep control of observation towers), mercenary control, etc. It also depends a lot on your hero composition. Heros like Abathur are game changers in an strategic perspective. Also the fact there's multiple maps, makes it more challanging on a strategic sense. I feel HotS is way more like starcraft in compatitive side than dota, to be honest.

Second stats complexity does not make a game more competitive but more elitists since learning the game is a lot harder, those with way more knowledge but less skill can beat a more skilled player with less knowledge. True competitive games should be easy to learn and hard to master.
 

Deleted member 219079

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Deleted member 219079

Heroes is in alpha stage, it has much to change at.


LoL is just an improved version of DotA, and D2 is an autistic child of these two.
 
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Heroes is in alpha stage, it has much to change at.


LoL is just an improved version of DotA, and D2 is an autistic child of these two.

^ Totally biased. You're like "I like LoL more, end of story". If you like LoL, then LoL is "better" than you. But for DotA 1/DotA 2 players, DotA is "better". There's no such better in general here. If I would act like you, I can just say "DotA 2 is much better than LoL and LoL is just garbage and for pussies". But I wont, 'cause I know that what's "better" depends on the player's taste like I said before. It's almost like religion debate kinda thing, if you're a loyal christian, would you say that your religion sucks?

And how did LoL got into this thread? It's DotA vs DotA 2 zzz. You're off-topic now sir pussy cat.
 
^ Totally biased. You're like "I like LoL more, end of story". If you like LoL, then LoL is "better" than you. But for DotA 1/DotA 2 players, DotA is "better". There's no such better in general here. If I would act like you, I can just say "DotA 2 is much better than LoL and LoL is just garbage and for pussies". But I wont, 'cause I know that what's "better" depends on the player's taste like I said before. It's almost like religion debate kinda thing, if you're a loyal christian, would you say that your religion sucks?

And how did LoL got into this thread? It's DotA vs DotA 2 zzz. You're off-topic now sir pussy cat.

There's no need to go passive-agressive much here. However, I agree LoL and HoS shouldn't be part of conversation unless their used as examples of improvement.

And how did LoL got into this thread? It's DotA vs DotA 2 zzz. You're off-topic now sir pussy cat.

Well after all LoL was initialy designed by Guinsoo (creator of DotA All stars family). So the rivalry goes back to history. Anyways, no need to bring it in.
 
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I never played DotA, but I played a lot of regular Wc3 melee and custom maps.

Dota 2 is a great improvement in a lot of ways. To name a few: the recipe and shop system is smoother. Hotkeys for abilities and items are rebindable. You can turn auto-attack on or off. There's the "issue order to all units". You can tab through single, unselected units. You can jump on the timeline in replays.

I miss some things that they haven't implemented in Dota 2 though. For whatever dumb reason they keep working on cosmetic bullshit and whatnot when they could implement for example: the patrol order from Wc3. The replay bugs, for example the one that inaccurately shows buffs on heroes that doesn't have them. The tab forwards AND backwards between unit types in the unit selection (this can be done in Wc3 using mouse button 4 and 5 instead of the tab key, but in Dota 2 you can only tab forwards). I would like to have the option "Turn cosmetic bullshit on/off" to have only one model and one skin for each unit like in good old Wc3. Also, I miss the old Lich model and voice. =)

I still cannot live with the fact that in Dota 2 they permanently changed the chat notifications when buying items to graphical popup notifications. Did they do that in DotA as well? In Dota 2 it is not possible for players to revert back to using chat notifications, not even through console commands. This is starting to look more like a ramble on features and design of Dota 2 and less like a comparison between DotA and Dota 2 though, so I'll stop here.
 
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You mean the Hero items that change how they look? But to me items are for showing off. When you have awesome items equipped, players are like "Woah nice set". But yeah, hater's gonna hate. Disliker's gonna dislike lolz.

Well, most players wouldn't turn it off anyway. I just personally would like to have the option to play with all default models and skins.
 
You mean the Hero items that change how they look? But to me items are for showing off. When you have awesome items equipped, players are like "Woah nice set". But yeah, hater's gonna hate. Disliker's gonna dislike lolz.

I think he says it more due to the fact cosmetics cause confusion for some people. Specialy at recognizing heros and stuff.
 
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What I dislike for one is that the models seem to blend so much with the terrain that I sometimes find it hard to determine where the heroes are.

You're not the only one.
It is interesting how adapting to DoTA2 is surprisingly difficult, considering it is merely a carbon copy of the original.
 
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When fighting riki I never even knew he has a smoke screen that I could walk out of. I was just amazed at how there can be such an OP hero with a never ending silence.

Riki's smoke screen seems very OP to me. You silence nearby enemies in an AoE and rape them while they are silenced and slowed by almost 50%. No living being can ever escape this guy :3
 
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