Day of the Dragon

[OutsiderXE]

Almost all maps got a form of downsizing.

First reason was to eliminate as many situations as possible when enemies are only standing around. I strongly believe that it is a lot more fun to fight enemies that engage with the environment or the player in various ways. It would be very easy to just have hundreds of groups of enemies just standing there, but would be really boring in my opinion.

Second reason is to eliminate dead zones. Some areas are just not used, not even visually, so I made everything more compact.

Compare the following two screenshots. I marked the dead zones blue. It may not be optimal but it should get the point across.

Spoiler: slightly modified version of the Chapter 7 you know (now Chapter 9)

Map Size 160x160

Spoiler: new update

Map Size 128x160

There are fewer large chunks of unused space on the map. Everything is better connected and the terrain looks a lot better because of it.

In Chapter 10 (what you know as Chapter 8) the playable area for the basebuilding section is actually visibly bigger! The micro-section may be gone but you can actually find Falstad and Vereesa so you can still play them and they will have a meaningful role in the basebuilding section.

Btw. if it sounds like I am defending myself it's because I love your enthusiasm about it and I want to show you how enthusiastic I am about the upcoming changes.

The campaign will be smaller in other ways too: I never liked some of the long cinematics where a bunch of characters are just standing around and talking to each other. The update will be have less dialogue in each cinematic.

 

[Venombite]

Almost all maps got a form of downsizing.

First reason was to eliminate as many situations as possible when enemies are only standing around. I strongly believe that it is a lot more fun to fight enemies that engage with the environment or the player in various ways. It would be very easy to just have hundreds of groups of enemies just standing there, but would be really boring in my opinion.

Second reason is to eliminate dead zones. Some areas are just not used, not even visually, so I made everything more compact.

Compare the following two screenshots. I marked the dead zones blue. It may not be optimal but it should get the point across.

Spoiler: slightly modified version of the Chapter 7 you know (now Chapter 9)

Map Size 160x160
View attachment 328518

Spoiler: new update

Map Size 128x160
View attachment 328519

There are fewer large chunks of unused space on the map. Everything is better connected and the terrain looks a lot better because of it.

In Chapter 10 (what you know as Chapter 8) the playable area for the basebuilding section is actually visibly bigger! The micro-section may be gone but you can actually find Falstad and Vereesa so you can still play them and they will have a meaningful role in the basebuilding section.

Btw. if it sounds like I am defending myself it's because I love your enthusiasm about it and I want to show you how enthusiastic I am about the upcoming changes.

The campaign will be smaller in other ways too: I never liked some of the long cinematics where a bunch of characters are just standing around and talking to each other. The update will be have less dialogue in each cinematic.

Can you show us a bit of chapter 10 as a teaser??

 

[OutsiderXE]

Can you show us a bit of chapter 10 as a teaser??

OK. Next time I play it I will record a video. Expect it on the weekend.

 

[Anaxie]

Almost all maps got a form of downsizing.

First reason was to eliminate as many situations as possible when enemies are only standing around. I strongly believe that it is a lot more fun to fight enemies that engage with the environment or the player in various ways. It would be very easy to just have hundreds of groups of enemies just standing there, but would be really boring in my opinion.

Second reason is to eliminate dead zones. Some areas are just not used, not even visually, so I made everything more compact.

Compare the following two screenshots. I marked the dead zones blue. It may not be optimal but it should get the point across.

Spoiler: slightly modified version of the Chapter 7 you know (now Chapter 9)

Map Size 160x160
View attachment 328518

Spoiler: new update

Map Size 128x160
View attachment 328519

There are fewer large chunks of unused space on the map. Everything is better connected and the terrain looks a lot better because of it.

In Chapter 10 (what you know as Chapter 8) the playable area for the basebuilding section is actually visibly bigger! The micro-section may be gone but you can actually find Falstad and Vereesa so you can still play them and they will have a meaningful role in the basebuilding section.

Btw. if it sounds like I am defending myself it's because I love your enthusiasm about it and I want to show you how enthusiastic I am about the upcoming changes.

The campaign will be smaller in other ways too: I never liked some of the long cinematics where a bunch of characters are just standing around and talking to each other. The update will be have less dialogue in each cinematic.

Very happy you took my suggestion about having those 2 added to the final mission again.

Should be really fun!

I did like the alliance k8ngs cinematic with prestor. I hope that one was retained especially since it fleshes out the story quite a bit then a standard mission can.

I hope Rom is more useful because i never found him interesting or that fun.

 

[Venombite]

The things you can change in The King of Alterac interlude, if you haven't already:
-Genn Greymane now has his own model (Genn Greymane), and change his color to brown or peanut (he looks really brownish in WoW)
edit: This campaign (Legacy of Lordaeron v2.6.2) also has a really good Genn Greymane model, bu I was unable to find it on hive. (Though I think the campaign is not protected)
-Change lord Prestor's color to orange(national color of Alterac)


//On the side note, you probably know this meeting was retconned for like 10th time (lol) in WoW chronicles. Lord Prestor is specifically stated to visit these meetings with his closest adviser Lord Victor Nefarius and his daughter Lady Katrana Prestor. If you added them, throw them out, cause I agree that the main driving force for the hole story is that Deathwing has lost the black dragonflight and is now alone, seeking ways to acquire a new army.

 

[tomoraider]

Almost all maps got a form of downsizing.

First reason was to eliminate as many situations as possible when enemies are only standing around. I strongly believe that it is a lot more fun to fight enemies that engage with the environment or the player in various ways. It would be very easy to just have hundreds of groups of enemies just standing there, but would be really boring in my opinion.

Second reason is to eliminate dead zones. Some areas are just not used, not even visually, so I made everything more compact.

I really like the first point! Could you share some examples of engaging encounters?

 

[Anaxie]

The things you can change in The King of Alterac interlude, if you haven't already:
-Genn Greymane now has his own model (Genn Greymane), and change his color to brown or peanut (he looks really brownish in WoW)
edit: This campaign (Legacy of Lordaeron v2.6.2) also has a really good Genn Greymane model, bu I was unable to find it on hive. (Though I think the campaign is not protected)
-Change lord Prestor's color to orange(national color of Alterac)


//On the side note, you probably know this meeting was retconned for like 10th time (lol) in WoW chronicles. Lord Prestor is specifically stated to visit these meetings with his closest adviser Lord Victor Nefarius and his daughter Lady Katrana Prestor. If you added them, throw them out, cause I agree that the main driving force for the hole story is that Deathwing has lost the black dragonflight and is now alone, seeking ways to acquire a new army.

Thankfully the campaign is based on the novel and not modern warcraft retcons every 2 years

 

[Venombite]

Thankfully the campaign is based on the novel and not modern warcraft retcons every 2 years

Well some retconns do actually fit the story well (e.g. Vereesa being high ranking general instead of novice, emerald nightmare, blue dragonflight being alive and well, Daelin being a de facto king of Kul Tiras), but the (large) majority don't and just ruin the story.

 

[OutsiderXE]

1. ...having those 2 (Vereesa and Falstad) added to the final mission again....
2. I did like the alliance kings cinematic with prestor....
3. Genn Greymane now has his own model (Genn Greymane),
4. I hope Rom is more useful...
5. Change lord Prestor's color to orange
6. Katrana and Nefarian

1. Yes. I am still adjusting the time on when you can use Vereesa and Falstad. Right now it's towards the end of the base-building section when you already have an edge over the enemy.
2. I have not removed any meaningful cinematics, but I made almost all of them significantly shorter by removing or trimming down particular cinematics. The King of Alterac cinematic remains almost untouched. I've alo added new cinematics (e.g. more cinematics that flesh out the relationship of Alexstrasza and Nekros). Additionally, I have readjusted the duration of many transmissions so you have more time to read and improved camera movement.
3. Already implemented months ago
4. Not really. The whole idea of Rom is based on his ultimate which helps you gain resources in a mission where resources are scarce. I understand that his other abilities are not that good (Wind Walk is OK, ut only for the speed bonus to move around the large map). I've nerfed Flashbang a bit more actually. I might replace Poison Dagger with an active Critical Strike.
5. Already done that for Prestor and Deathwing
6. I am not actively against retcons, but when the novel has a very clear picture as to what was oing on I find it hard to change them just for the sake of retconned continuity. For the same reason I wouls not add any blue dragons. Malygos lost his flight. Krasus did not know about other blue dragons. I did add Alurmi (a bronze dragon - Keeper of Time) for an optional quest. I also added Eranikus (Ysera's consort at that time). They are just there as familiar faces. People who don't know them won't care. People who do will (hopefully) say "oh, nice detail". Eranikus is actually not a hero and allowed to die in the mission, just like Naisha in Frozen Throne.

I really like the first point! Could you share some examples of engaging encounters?

This can consist of many simple things. Just a few examples:
1. Transmissions by enemies or your units when you encounter them. "What are you doing here? Kill them!"
2. Some units fleeing to another group to get help.
3. Different groups of enemies fighting each other.
4. Enemies coming out of hiding places to ambush you.
5. Enemies attacking you when you are still far away.
You can see a bit here

Not every enemy encounter needs to be like that but you get the point. The more you add, the more alive it feels. Just make sure the surprises don't immediately destroy the player. Allow breathing room. Inspiration can be taken from modern first person shooters that are usually very linear and heavily scripted.

 

[Venombite]

4. Not really. The whole idea of Rom is based on his ultimate which helps you gain resources in a mission where resources are scarce. I understand that his other abilities are not that good (Wind Walk is OK, ut only for the speed bonus to move around the large map). I've nerfed Flashbang a bit more actually. I might replace Poison Dagger with an active Critical Strike.

Imo Rom is a good hero. The things you can change about him:
-A new icon
-Make him start with an orb of venom(or some other orb) or make him able to find it at the start of his first chapter
-Imo his most useless ability is wind walk if you're going to add critical strike it should replace this one, Poison Daggers are quite good
He becomes a killing machine with battlethirst helmet and level 9-10.

1. Yes. I am still adjusting the time on when you can use Vereesa and Falstad. Right now it's towards the end of the base-building section when you already have an edge over the enemy.

I know that this is too late and maybe a too big thing. But what if the chapter starts with Rom and Krasus/Rhonin. Have the good optional quest rescue some powerful units(e.g gryphon riders or steam tanks). Then have those three heroes at the first part of the mission. Then when you have destroyed 2/5(or whatever) altars have Falstad and Vereesa appear and give the option to choose which heroes stay(Rhonin and Krasus being mandatory) so you are left with 3 or 4 heroes. I think having 5 lvl10 heroes is kinda too much. Also the thing I kind a don't like that much in the map is that you can steal 10 red dragons who can just eat the strongest enemy units and then annihilate enemy towers and buildings and other units, so you don't really need a base and forces. What if red whelps/drakes/dragons that Rhonin steals instead just become neutral and fly away, so you have to do most(all) fighting with the dwarves.

 

[OutsiderXE]

I like the item idea for Rom. He has enough inventory slots anyway.

Unfortunately you are right. It's too late for big changes like these. I want to work on Lord of the Clans soon so it can be ready before Reforged is out.

Chapter 10 is a struggle. On the one hand I want players to feel powerful, on the other hand I don't want to overburden them with stuff. At the moment it's balanced in a way that it's up to the player how many heroes they want to play with. They start with Rhonin and Krasus. Rom is an optional quest and Vereesa and Falstad are hidden in the corners of the map. You will not get to them until you already have a sizeable army. Also ,at that point you should be very familiar with your heroes and your tech-tree so hopefully they won't overburden you that much.

I will leave the Demon Soul as it is. It's the perfect evolution after Krasus'/Deathwing's Medallion and just feels right to be able to free the dragons and take revenge on the orcs with them. It's better balanced than it was before because there are fewer dragons standing alone/in small groups on the map, so you can't just steal one and get away with it. Also many Red Dragons were replaced with Dragonmaw Riders. When you take control of them they are replaced with Red Drakes (so they are weaker). Air units in general are also not as powerful as they were because the objective is no longer to destroy some lone Cannon Towers which you can easily destroy from above - you really have to get into the enemy base to destroy the Altars.

The change to Chapter 10 can be explained in this way: I am giving players more stuff to play with but the enemy also has more stuff to play with (more bases, better defended, a hero that gets revived, more regular attacks, more types of enemy units). And lets not forget that the level is completely new and the final boss fight is completely different as well, being real-time with new abilities and all the items you have collected!

 

[Venombite]

One more quick question. Does Tyranastrasz (alex prime consort) have a role in the campaign? If not he should be shown at the intro of chapter 10, being sent and killed by Deathwing.

 

[tomoraider]

This can consist of many simple things. Just a few examples:
1. Transmissions by enemies or your units when you encounter them. "What are you doing here? Kill them!"
2. Some units fleeing to another group to get help.
3. Different groups of enemies fighting each other.
4. Enemies coming out of hiding places to ambush you.
5. Enemies attacking you when you are still far away.
You can see a bit here

Not every enemy encounter needs to be like that but you get the point. The more you add, the more alive it feels. Just make sure the surprises don't immediately destroy the player. Allow breathing room. Inspiration can be taken from modern first person shooters that are usually very linear and heavily scripted.

I see, thanks! That's pretty straightforward, but actually very useful in making the maps feel less dull. I'll have to put some more thought into this in some of my maps.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

To add to what is said here. The gameplay should be what's engaging the player. Don't do what blizzard did in sc2 and add transmissions because they thought players don't have attention span to play their boring maps. Dialogue lines won't help if your maps can't be engaging. Not to say you shouldn't use them at all, but gameplay should be the source of engagement @tomoraider

 

[tomoraider]

To add to what is said here. The gameplay should be what's engaging the player. Don't do what blizzard did in sc2 and add transmissions because they thought players don't have attention span to play their boring maps. Dialogue lines won't help if your maps can't be engaging. Not to say you shouldn't use them at all, but gameplay should be the source of engagement @tomoraider

I agree. The overall gameplay should definitely come first, but I think it's important to have variety in the design of encounters. Having various twists in the way the encounters happen, as opposed to enemies just standing around as OutsiderXE mentioned, should aid the gameplay from becoming stale, even if it is already fun. I'm definitely guilty of having hero-only maps where most of the enemies are just standing around.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

That's entirely reasonable way to look at it. And yeah, avoid such maps with no bases to control. A-moving and grinding through hp is no fun and I'm glad you see that.

 

[OutsiderXE]

I've liked baseless missions ever since Red Alert 1, where you would take down an entire base by carefully microing your hero. But not all are good. The Protoss mission in Starcraft 1 is pretty bad because of the sudden Infested Terran that would surprise and destroy your whole squad. So like all things it depends on what you do with it.

Scripted events work much better in baseless missions because you can be more certain that the player attention will be on that location. I'm forced to do it anyway. As I am adapting books they tend to be mostly about single heroes or groups of heroes without many armies. My Starcraft 2 map SotX: Chapter 6 is considered one of my best works and it is full of scripted events or situations that force you to think about your approach (

).

Strictly talking about transmissions: Oh, I really hate those transmissions when an enemy would threaten you out of the blue while you are destroying his army. Diablo 3 is the worst. Then I would have prefered no interaction at all. Transmissions should be connected to the current situation. E.g. a warlock summoning a skeleton saying "Arise fallen one!" It may be stupid but the alternative would be to have the warlock and the skeleton just stand there.

For your inspiriation a few more events:
1. Hero enters Spider area: Play transmission: "Spiders? I should slay them before they multiply"
2. Hero collects some gold in spider area: nearby eggs birth small spiders and attack
3. Hero enters another spider area: Enemy spiders come out of the forest (they don't attack, they simply go to their original spots they would have been had they simply been static enemies)
4. Hero chooses a path in a Y-intersection: Enemies from the path come to attack from behind.
5. Always cool: 2 groups of enemies fighting each other.

Transmissions are cool here because you can have minor subplots about a spider infestation. Often it might be better to have humanoid enemies, because it's more believeable if they responde with strategy/logic (verbally or by taking actions).

 

[Deleted member 238589]

I get what you're saying but macro is the integral part of rts gameplay and shouldn't be removed lightly. I like how you did it in you last guardian campaign by committing to the point and click adventure gameplay. Most people just remove macro and have you grind through health pools of idle units that wait to be killed. I personally prefer rts gameplay and that's why I don't like to see macro removed, but if you commit to adding new mechanics, be they rpg or whatever, that's another story. I know that books don't necessarily translate well into rts gameplay, but that's another issue entirely.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Yes. And I would not agree with removing RTS elements just to have RPG, unless it's justified by a really cool idea or has new mechanics. My suggestions are simply there to improve the RPG missions. For the coming update I have actually replaced 2 RPG maps with RTS maps and reduced the amount of RPG areas in many other missions. There are people who see this as a simple removal of content but that's not it at all: The quality on the rest of the content is increased by having fewer static enemies. Everything feels more alive.

Simply compare the first 4 minutes of this (starting at 25:00)

with this

Nobody can convice me they would rather play the first.

About commiting in TLG: I have often toyed with the idea of removing the combat completely until I realized I should do the opposite and take advantage of it. The next update will have a few more fights. This is to have a bit more variety and to make Flame Strike more useful but the most important reason is, that I replaced the arrow-key/turn-based combat in the last chapter with real-time puzzles. The combat is effectively nothing more than a timer that puts some stress on you because it kills you if you don't solve the puzzle in time.

I am in the planning process of new update Lord of the Clans: LotC has the problem that I can't just give Thrall a bunch of mercenaries to hire, and certainly not base-building missions until very late. So the idea is to give him a lot more abilities and upgrades, but he would have to earn them via quests. More on that in the LotC thread in the coming months.

Btw I have a question: I have already switched all hero and mercenary abilities hotkeys to the QWER layout. What would you think if I did the same for buildings and upgrades?

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Another point is that RPG mechanics and hero can negatively impact rts gameplay (specifically macro sections), for example by shifting to much focus to a single unit rather than an army. The last human mission in reign of chaos is the worst offender in this case where you can solo an entire base with your hero even on hard difficulty. It's still important to have strategic assets on the maps like valued paths, gold mines, creep camps, etc. Also, it's important to have the AI interact with the same systems as the player, or as many as possible at least. The upkeep, for example, is not a factor for the AI with infinite money. But then, if you wish to improve rpg mission, like you said, but not have those same mechanics in macro sections, then your gameplay is not consistent.

 

[OutsiderXE]

...for example by shifting to much focus to a single unit rather than an army. ... But then, if you wish to improve rpg mission, like you said, but not have those same mechanics in macro sections, then your gameplay is not consistent.

I am currently struggling with that for Lord of the Clans. 90% of the campaign players use only a single hero or a small group of units. For the coming update I want to add more RPG elements to the hero, but you perfectly describe my dilemma: The more I add, the more disjointed the final base-building mission will be. I know one solution would be to just let the AI take over the base-stuff but I would really like to have this transition into base-building before players play RoC. Maybe give abilities to the hero that allow him to build stuff to make him part of the base-building... But that's not a problem I can solve right now. I'll have to try out a few things.

 

[Anaxie]

Put a cap somehow i guess.

Dragon soul can only mind control 3 units at a time?

Another point is that RPG mechanics and hero can negatively impact rts gameplay (specifically macro sections), for example by shifting to much focus to a single unit rather than an army. The last human mission in reign of chaos is the worst offender in this case where you can solo an entire base with your hero even on hard difficulty. It's still important to have strategic assets on the maps like valued paths, gold mines, creep camps, etc. Also, it's important to have the AI interact with the same systems as the player, or as many as possible at least. The upkeep, for example, is not a factor for the AI with infinite money. But then, if you wish to improve rpg mission, like you said, but not have those same mechanics in macro sections, then your gameplay is not consistent.

You can but why would you when arthas can have grypphons that are unstoppable.

I think rpg gameplay and base building is best shown in the wanderers of sorceria series. Many levels woth base building was pointless because the hero cast can demonish everything. 7nits just speed up the guaranteed results.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

I am currently struggling with that for Lord of the Clans. 90% of the campaign players use only a single hero or a small group of units. For the coming update I want to add more RPG elements to the hero, but you perfectly describe my dilemma: The more I add, the more disjointed the final base-building mission will be. I know one solution would be to just let the AI take over the base-stuff but I would really like to have this transition into base-building before players play RoC. Maybe give abilities to the hero that allow him to build stuff to make him part of the base-building... But that's not a problem I can solve right now. I'll have to try out a few things.

Well, you're in it now lol. It's always best to figure out you core gameplay loop before doing too much. Try not to get stuck adding features for the sake of adding them if they just can't fit. It's probably too late to implement some things now as we're talking about the finished product with its own gameplay loop. I'm not sure how interested would you be in redesigning some maps from scratch, but it's sometimes the only solution. Unless you prefer to take the old lessons and adapt them to a new project. As for the current one, do what you can to keep it fun and consistent with your updates.

As for more specific feedback, I don't think there's much you can do to make that gameplay transition less jarring. If you're already committing to more RPG oriented gameplay, I suggest you stick with it all the way. Meaning, in that context, I support your idea of giving the base control to the AI. But, in that case, you better make sure your core gameplay that revolves around the heroes is fun to play.

 

[OutsiderXE]

No video of Chapter 10. Instead, I decided to spent the time polishing the campaign. Things are going well. A few bugs here and there but nothing serious (except that Rom's Flashbang sometimes crashes the game...). An open beta start within 6-13 days sounds likely.

To adress some questions/ideas:
- Tyranastrasz appearance: Not going to happen as the Intro cinematic(s) to Chapter 10 already feels stuffed - but he is going to be mentioned (not by name) in the new interlude.
- Limiting Demon Soul Soul: No need. In my last playthrough I really tried to use it as much as possible. The enemy just has a lot more anti-air and the dragons you control are usually weaker than in the previous version.
- New abilities for Rom: Honestly, I didn't put much thought into it so Rom isn't going to get new abilities, but I buffed his Poison Dagger and gave him some Land Mines to start with. I know Wind Walk isbn't useful in combat but I like it as a means to travel faster, which is needed a lot in this map.

One more thing I'd like to mention: Many abilities were nerfed at level 2 and 3 as heroes get more and more support by large armies.

 

[Anaxie]

No video of Chapter 10. Instead, I decided to spent the time polishing the campaign. Things are going well. A few bugs here and there but nothing serious (except that Rom's Flashbang sometimes crashes the game...). An open beta start within 6-13 days sounds likely.

To adress some questions/ideas:
- Tyranastrasz appearance: Not going to happen as the Intro cinematic(s) to Chapter 10 already feels stuffed - but he is going to be mentioned (not by name) in the new interlude.
- Limiting Demon Soul Soul: No need. In my last playthrough I really tried to use it as much as possible. The enemy just has a lot more anti-air and the dragons you control are usually weaker than in the previous version.
- New abilities for Rom: Honestly, I didn't put much thought into it so Rom isn't going to get new abilities, but I buffed his Poison Dagger and gave him some Land Mines to start with. I know Wind Walk isbn't useful in combat but I like it as a means to travel faster, which is needed a lot in this map.

One more thing I'd like to mention: Many abilities were nerfed at level 2 and 3 as heroes get more and more support by large armies.

If he has landmines windwalk makes him far more usedul anyway considering the way you SHOULD use landmines.

Aka drop 3 attack them yourself and level a base and kill all enemy units.

Are you trying to say dragonmaw drakeriders replace the whelps and junk drakes and you made them AA units. Aka they have drakeriders and full dragons?.

That should help their AA. Rather than them javing to rely only on wolfriders.

 

[OutsiderXE]

If he has landmines windwalk makes him far more usedul anyway considering the way you SHOULD use landmines.
Are you trying to say dragonmaw drakeriders replace the whelps and junk drakes and you made them AA units. Aka they have drakeriders and full dragons?.
That should help their AA. Rather than them javing to rely only on wolfriders.

The enemy will have whelps, drakes, dragons and many riders (same stats as wyvern). there will be some Raiders (although no Ensnare at the moment) and a lot more Orc Warlocks.

Last playthrough I tried using the Demon Soul as much as possible. Of course it gave me an advantage over not using it but at no point did I feel like I was overpowering the enemy simply with my dragons. Although other players may be more successful. I haven't tried a Gryphon/Dragon build yet.

Previously you would have to destroy a few towers, relatively unprotected. Now you really have to get into the bases to destroy the Altars.
Here is a screenshot that is a bit closer to the action You see more enemies bases, much closer together. I will try out making the Grim Batol Towers Anti-Air.

Spoiler

 

[Venombite]

The enemy will have whelps, drakes, dragons and many riders (same stats as wyvern). there will be some Raiders (although no Ensnare at the moment) and a lot more Orc Warlocks.

Last playthrough I tried using the Demon Soul as much as possible. Of course it gave me an advantage over not using it but at no point did I feel like I was overpowering the enemy simply with my dragons. Although other players may be more successful. I haven't tried a Gryphon/Dragon build yet.

Previously you would have to destroy a few towers, relatively unprotected. Now you really have to get into the bases to destroy the Altars.
Here is a screenshot that is a bit closer to the action You see more enemies bases, much closer together. I will try out making the Grim Batol Towers Anti-Air.

Spoiler

View attachment 328986

Have you thought about adding an interlude between chapters 9 and 10. That way you can skip overstuffed intro cinematic and show some important scenes that were "cut" from chapter 10 like the big Rhonin-Korialstrasz reveal, Rhonin meeting the three aspects, the three aspects confronting Deathwing. That way you could also squeeze in some stuff like more Rhonin Vereesa Falstad dialog, more Alexstrasza Nekros dialog and Tyranastrasz, Rom getting captured etc...

Also imo tents need to go. They really look out of place imo. Think that the human farm, or some reskin would look a lot better(Farm (Human) and Derivatives). Maybe even this (VikingHouse), or I don't know what.

The last thing, but this is just me, I don't really like the new aspect models. I don't mean to say that they aren't good, cause they are good, but they imo just look I don't know "cheap", don't get me wrong I did not mean to say anything bad, it's just that I don't know an appropriate word to describe it (I know the word/term which is used in most European countries but it is acctually offensive for some people so I won't say it). Sinse WoW models are impossible I would prefer standard dragon models, but again that's just me.

Didn't mean to post more comments, but again it's obvious that the urge to post stuff is stronger than me.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Have you thought about adding an interlude between chapters 9 and 10. ...
Also imo tents need to go. ...

The last thing, but this is just me, I don't really like the new aspect models. ...

Didn't mean to post more comments, but again it's obvious that the urge to post stuff is stronger than me.

Your feedback is always welcome and I agree with most of your ideas.

1. New interlude: It's always a delicate balancing act between showing enough stuff and not pausing the gameplay for too long. Currently Chapter 10 already shows most of the scenes you describe within the first 5 minutes, with a short breather for gameplay inbetween. In my opinion the story works well enough without Tyranastrasz. I actually think the idea of multiple consorts is strange and weakens the love-bond between Alex and Krasus.

2. I also don't like tents. They work with the idea that the Dwarven Resistance is moving from place to place to not get caught but they look out of place. I wanted to change this model (Dwarven Towers) to look like a Bunker and combine the features of Towers (Damage) and Tents (Food) but I don't know how. I will try out your suggested models.

3. I totally understand what you mean by cheap look. There is something not 100% right with the animations and the skin. It took me some time to get used to them but I think they are OK.

I am in the final phase of updating. Gameplay works. Barely any bugs. Most things I am fixing now are among the lines of "this rock needs to be moved by 2cm" or "this cinematic camera works better from a slightly different angle". I think I can release an open beta within 4-11 days. Then you can give some feedback on the actual thing while I take a break from the editor


edit: I have replaced replaced the tent with one of your suggestions and renamed it to House. I also replaced the original farm model with a WC2-style model to make it look more different than the new House.

Spoiler

 

[Venombite]

And I forgot to say earlier. Imo having wolf riders without Ensnare is kinda pointless. Imo they are one of the worst units in the whole game, second only to human gyrocopter/flying machine. Ensnare is the only thing that makes them kinda worthwhile. In combat if there were two wolf riders vs five peons, I'd put my bet on the peons.

 

[OutsiderXE]

The great thing about singleplayer games is that balance does not need to be the primary focus. There can be Raiders simply to have more unit variation even if they are just cannon fodder.

 

[Sirmarkis29]

THIS CAMPAIGN !! IS A FUCKI::: MASTERPIECE!!
LOVE IT !! THANKS FOR SO MANY YEARS TESTING AND IMPROVE IT THIS CAMPAING!
5/5 HAVE A AMAZING DAY SIR! ;")

PD: AND THANKS FOR this version work perfect with 1.26 (my eternal and one only warcraft 3 real patch)
yeah no like it 1.27 1.28 etc

 

[mauriciolima1]

I was very happy to discovery the custom campaign community here in the HIVE. This was my first custom campaign and certainly one of the best! Congratulations for this amazing work after all this time. Greetings from Brazil.

 

[OutsiderXE]

THIS CAMPAIGN !! IS A FUCKI::: MASTERPIECE!!
LOVE IT !! THANKS FOR SO MANY YEARS TESTING AND IMPROVE IT THIS CAMPAING!
5/5 HAVE A AMAZING DAY SIR! ;")

PD: AND THANKS FOR this version work perfect with 1.26 (my eternal and one only warcraft 3 real patch)
yeah no like it 1.27 1.28 etc

I was very happy to discovery the custom campaign community here in the HIVE. This was my first custom campaign and certainly one of the best! Congratulations for this amazing work after all this time. Greetings from Brazil.

Thank you so much guys! After more than one year of work the open beta of the next version should be out next weekend! The update will include completely new maps and literally almost 1000 changes affecting gameplay, user interface, audio and visuals.

 

[Matt V.]

Hey OutsiderXE, I gotta say that I'm enjoying playing your campaign very much. I have played only 2 custom campaigns so far(excluding 2p coop warcraft III campaigns), this and Legends of Arkain- first and second human book... and your campaign may not have too many different models and new stuff, but it's not needed. Sometimes the simplicity is major compared to complicated stuff. I'm definitely gonna try your other campaigns later on too! However there is one thing I *kind of* dislike- you should add something like backpack for more items, e.g. consumables. I play your campaign on normal(dunno how hard it is on hard) but I have to leave most of the items on the ground because of small backpack.. especially in chapter 5. (also there is quite a lot of runes everywhere, not saying its a problem though )Other than that, I don't really have any other dislikes throughout your campaign! Keep up the good work! I would definitely welcome more of your work(perhaps a 2p version of your campaigns? It's not necessary of course- I'm sure it would take a lot of time to do it- but I'm open to you if you would hand me over such a task... and it might kind of ruin the story, so I'd say it would be actually better with some campaigns where you get to control a base more than 50% of the time, because some must be kind of boring for a second player. ) Other people might have seen similar posts of mine on Legends of Arkain since I simply love playing coop campaigns.. it's a shame there's no more 2ps (at least as far as I know) other than Archon and the W3 2ps.. hope there will be some in W3R someday.

Anyway, TL;DR- Enjoying your campaign, but I lack more space in the inventory in some missions. Would welcome some 2p versions as well in the future.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Hey OutsiderXE, ...

Hello! Glad you are enjoying it!
When you want to play The Last Guardian make sure to get the latest open beta version from here: TLG220.w3n Looking forward to some feedback.

A two-player campaign would be very interesting, but not very easy to do it right. I made a two-player campaign for Starcraft 2 named Shadow of the Xel'Naga. You can check it out on the Arcade by searching for "sotx", if you haven't already. When Reforged is out and I have finished updating all of my campaigns I consider making them open source. Anyone will be able to edit and reupload them without additional permission!

Implementing a backpack is questionable. Next version will feature tons completely remade maps and tons of improvements which also include multiple taverns where you can sell unwanted stuff or buy potions as needed. Check back here in a few days to get the open beta!

 

[Matt V.]

Hello! Glad you are enjoying it!
When you want to play The Last Guardian make sure to get the latest open beta version from here: TLG220.w3n Looking forward to some feedback.

A two-player campaign would be very interesting, but not very easy to do it right. I made a two-player campaign for Starcraft 2 named Shadow of the Xel'Naga. You can check it out on the Arcade by searching for "sotx", if you haven't already. When Reforged is out and I have finished updating all of my campaigns I consider making them open source. Anyone will be able to edit and reupload them without additional permission!

Implementing a backpack is questionable. Next version will feature tons completely remade maps and tons of improvements which also include multiple taverns where you can sell unwanted stuff or buy potions as needed. Check back here in a few days to get the open beta!

Hey again, thanks for the fast reply! I'm really glad for what you're doing for us! I am definitely gonna give your Starcraft campaign a try with my friend( he's actually the one persuading me to play with him most of the time, and now he also wants to try some SC2 campaigns too, so yours is the first one in line ^-^) I'm about to go on and finish DotD, so I might update my reply in the following days. I will definitely check this page once in a while to see the open beta, to see all the upcoming changes ^-^(and possible new projects? )

Oh and about the backpack- I'm sure you will find a way, but I still gotta say this- it's very complicated with the items, because in *some* missions I have almost empty inventory, while in other missions I don't know what to choose.


And one more thing- I definitely don't want to force you or anything, but some missions could be a little bit tweaked, because most of them were fairly easy so far(I'm in chapter 6 rn). Don't consider this as something offensive of course, it's not bad having something easier, I usually even like it more to have it easier than hard where I have to micromanage every single thing.. just saying.
Looking forward to open beta of DotD, as well as playing your other campaigns!
I hope you will continue with your great work!
Thanks again,
Matt V.

 

[Adrian0]

Hah, this campaign is a true masterpiece as all of the project of OutsiderXE. wandering what he is working on right now.

 

[Matt V.]

Hah, this campaign is a true masterpiece as all of the project of OutsiderXE. wandering what he is working on right now.

Oh yeah, I agree with that! Haven't seen many campaigns, but this has certainly been the best so far, and probably will be for a long time. My bet is he's working on the upcoming open betas



Also, OutsiderXE- I dont know if this was an intention, but in *certain* chapter where I control a dwarven base, I can't build anything with the miners, yet I require certain buildings to be able to recruit units.. so I'm left with only fighters to fight.. (don't wanna spoil it for people, yet I don't want to put the "spoiler" thing there, thats why I said *certain*)
Played with the newest version 1.31.
So let me know if its just me, but I think there happened to be a problem there.
Matt.


UPDATE: It probably is an intention since there's more bases with the buildings built there.. silly me sorry!

 

[Venombite]

One more quick question. Did you import custom voices for the three main characters(e.g Falstad from HotS or WoW, Rhonin and Vereesa from WoW), Rom and Krasus have a good voice already. It would also imo be good if Krasus kept his human voice in Dragon Form.

edit: And how about giving aspects some hero voices(it's really not that big of a change) (e.g Alexstrasza-Jaina, Malygos-Archmage/Kel'thuzad, Ysera-Maiev/Tyrande/Shandris/Naisha, Nozdormu-??(maybe Garithos) )

 

[OutsiderXE]

... but in *certain* chapter where I control a dwarven base, I can't build anything with the miners...!

Yes, this was intentional to emphasize player dependancy on getting gold from enemies. But next version you will be able to train Miners normally.

Next version is almost like a new campaign. I would say about 50% of the entire campaign has been remade or improved in some way. To give you a quick overview:

Spoiler

- New class Dark Summoner can summon Void units.
- Replaced Elemental Mage with Timewalker who can manipulate speed of himself and enemies and create a future-version of himself.
- Chapter 1: Remade 50% (second half of the map is completely new)
- Chapter 2: Remade 60% (terrain is completely new. changed many encounters)
- Chapter 3: 100% replaced with a new map and gameplay (basebuilding)
- Chapter 4 (Malygos): 20% new. Improved terrain in and encounters
- Chapter 5 (Dalaran): Removed! It was boring to just walk around and there was no interesting story. The optional quests are now part of other maps and the sub-maps are now fully features chapters spread across the campaign.
- Chapter 5 (Goblin Island): 30% remade. Merged islands 3 and 4. Removed most fetch quest tasks. Added enemies to fight. Rhonin can use his abilities normally.
- Chapter 6 (Nozdormu): 100% replaced with a new map and gameplay (basebuilding)
- Interlude 2: New interlude about Nekros and Alex
- Chapter 7 (Ysera): 20% changed. New enemies. Changed terrain in some areas.

- Chapter 8: 20% new. Removed many dead zones like large areas of water and forests (map is smaller as a result but enemies in bases are hitting harder).
- Chapter 9: 50% remade. Rhonin's area is completely new. Improved bossfights.
- Chapter 10: 100% replaced with a new map and gameplay. Bossfight is now in real-time with new abilities.
- Literally almost 1000 tweaks.

One more quick question. Did you import custom voices for the three main characters(e.g Falstad from HotS or WoW, Rhonin and Vereesa from WoW), Rom and Krasus have a good voice already. It would also imo be good if Krasus kept his human voice in Dragon Form.

edit: And how about giving aspects some hero voices(it's really not that big of a change) (e.g Alexstrasza-Jaina, Malygos-Archmage/Kel'thuzad, Ysera-Maiev/Tyrande/Shandris/Naisha, Nozdormu-??(maybe Garithos) )

I have imported Falstad from HotS. I have been looking for proper voices for Rhonin and Vereesa but the voices in WoW are insufficient for the usual attack/move commands. I changed Rhonin's voice to Priest. Humanoid voices for dragon form/aspects is a good idea. I will try it out. Thank you.

[Quote="Matt V.]and possible new projects?[/Quote]
My focus now is to get DotD ready. I have started fleshing out ideas for big update to LotC (more RPG elements) but it's likely that after DotD I will focus on other things for a while. I will return to updating LotC when I feel like it^^ The LotC update will be very big and could take me over a year.

Once all 3 projects are in open beta (and Reforged is expected to be out then) - I will apply necessary Reforged changed to the extend that is possible. E.g. new models/music/sounds/full hd loading screens etc. Gameplay will not be changed much anymore.

When all 3 projects are officially released I will effectively stop updating. I will allow the community to make changes and reupload the campaigns without asking for additional permission (many have been doing that anyway). Once I have a peace of mind I might start working on something completely different. I don't know what that is yet - but I will only announce it once I am sure I can finish it within reasonable time. The community has had to endure enough projects that were announced big and never saw the light of day.

I plan to do one more quick playthrough over the weekend. Open beta should be out on Saturday or Sunday. Don't be alarmed by the term "beta". This is the most thoroughly tested version I have ever released. You will encounter bugs like missing loading screens or sounds - but those are a result of the WC3 1.31 patch, not my fault. Initially it will not be available directly from the Hive - as I plan to continue working on it after Reforged is out - I will provide a Google Drive link.

 

[tomoraider]

I have imported Falstad from HotS. I have been looking for proper voices for Rhonin and Vereesa but the voices in WoW are insufficient for the usual attack/move commands. I changed Rhonin's voice to Priest. Humanoid voices for dragon form/aspects is a good idea. I will try it out. Thank you.

I managed to put together a Vereesa voice set from WoW voice files for my campaign, not sure if all the lines could work in the context of your campaign, but perhaps it could be helpful. (CotF Voice sets)

 

[OutsiderXE]

I managed to put together a Vereesa voice set from WoW voice files for my campaign, not sure if all the lines could work in the context of your campaign, but perhaps it could be helpful. (CotF Voice sets)

Thank you! As feared, some voice lines don't fit, but maybe I can find some more to replace them.

edit: Yes, i think I can easily replace them. Thank you.

 

[Matt V.]

Hey, I'm really looking forward to open beta of Dots, and I will definitely update my review later on once I get to give your beta a try.
Here are a few suggestions, which you of course don't have to do, just consider these-
As I said before, backpack and/or item drop rate slightly changed

Imho, the gold and lumber dropping from 90% of orcish buildings was sometimes a bit too much, even though this is not a con really.

Some Easter eggs/secret items would be very nice^^(Don't know if you have some there, the only one I noticed was

Spoiler

Spongebob reference and the riddle in chapter 4

even though I think there might be more ^^
Some of the invasions of orcs seem a little bit unbalanced, as well as their behaviour. Sometimes they attack with a huge army, sometimes with 3 grunts.. especially in chapter 8.

Also I don't think this is very appropriate according to more, but have you also considered an extra cinematic if you complete every side quest as a good guy? Not necessary of course!

That's probably it talking about the suggestions. However, there is one more thing that bothered me in chapter 4-

Spoiler

The goddamn robo goblin control. It was good that I could put him back to the starting position, but I didn't even know where to move him at first, I managed to move him all the way to the top and then got disappointed because it was a different quest , plus the controls were kind of annoying, yet satisfying when I succeeded.

I might look like I didn't enjoy the campaign, but believe me, I truly did!
Especially some models in later missions were spectacular.
Sorry for this exhaustingly long reply but thanks for reading,
Matt.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Hey, I'm really looking forward to open beta of Dots, and I will definitely update my review later on once I get to give your beta a try.
Here are a few suggestions, which you of course don't have to do, just consider these-
As I said before, backpack and/or item drop rate slightly changed

Imho, the gold and lumber dropping from 90% of orcish buildings was sometimes a bit too much, even though this is not a con really.

Some Easter eggs/secret items would be very nice^^(Don't know if you have some there, the only one I noticed was

Spoiler

Spongebob reference and the riddle in chapter 4

even though I think there might be more ^^
Some of the invasions of orcs seem a little bit unbalanced, as well as their behaviour. Sometimes they attack with a huge army, sometimes with 3 grunts.. especially in chapter 8.

Also I don't think this is very appropriate according to more, but have you also considered an extra cinematic if you complete every side quest as a good guy? Not necessary of course!

That's probably it talking about the suggestions. However, there is one more thing that bothered me in chapter 4-

Spoiler

The goddamn robo goblin control. It was good that I could put him back to the starting position, but I didn't even know where to move him at first, I managed to move him all the way to the top and then got disappointed because it was a different quest , plus the controls were kind of annoying, yet satisfying when I succeeded.

I might look like I didn't enjoy the campaign, but believe me, I truly did!
Especially some models in later missions were spectacular.
Sorry for this exhaustingly long reply but thanks for reading,
Matt.

1. item drops have been adjusted, but at the moment it's hard to say how people are going to perceive them.
2. I assume gold/lumber drops refer to Chapter 6 (now Chapter 8)? Resource balance feels a bit different now that Miners can be trained and build stuff.
3. You will be glad to know that I have added 1-2 secrets to each map. Some are really hard to find. Some give you rewards, others are just for fun.
4. Admittedly, attack waves are still a bit problematic but hopefully good enough to play with.
5. People have been asking about an extra cinematic but I don't want to distract from the idea that the current good ending is the real ending. DotD already ends on a very positive note with Alex and Krasus rebuilding their flight, the other Aspects united in chasing down Deathwing and all of Azeroth knowing some sort of peace after many years of war.

 

[Matt V.]

1. item drops have been adjusted, but at the moment it's hard to say how people are going to perceive them.
2. I assume gold/lumber drops refer to Chapter 6 (now Chapter 8)? Resource balance feels a bit different now that Miners can be trained and build stuff.
3. You will be glad to know that I have added 1-2 secrets to each map. Some are really hard to find. Some give you rewards, others are just for fun.
4. Admittedly, attack waves are still a bit problematic but hopefully good enough to play with.
5. People have been asking about an extra cinematic but I don't want to distract from the idea that the current good ending is the real ending. DotD already ends on a very positive note with Alex and Krasus rebuilding their flight, the other Aspects united in chasing down Deathwing and all of Azeroth knowing some sort of peace after many years of war.

Of course, these were just ideas and suggestions. I hope I will find the secrets! ^^
Matt.

 

[OutsiderXE]

I managed to put together a Vereesa voice set from WoW voice files for my campaign, not sure if all the lines could work in the context of your campaign, but perhaps it could be helpful. (CotF Voice sets)

I have managed to create a different sound set and filled up some missing sounds with yours. It's more generic (not a bad thing) and has more sounds. Maybe useful.

I am a bit delayed in releasing the update. I will do at least one more playthrough.

edit: Some hiccups remain. Update will be out in 3-6 hours from now.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Open beta for 3.0.0 is here!

DotD__Update_07__Version_3.0.0 (WIP) – Google Диск

I could have probably worked a bit more on it, but hey, it's not the final release anyway...

Enjoy and please write bug reports/suggestions in this thread or via email to [email protected]


EDIT. Wow, I just realized I have been working on the update for 15 months... That's almost as long as TLG 1.0 took in it's entirety.

 

[Venombite]

EDIT. Wow, I just realized I have been working on the update for 15 months... That's almost as long as TLG 1.0 took in it's entirety.

Well basically you've made a new campaign. I'm on chapter 3 and everything is so different. Nothing is really recognizable, the first three chapters are new missions. And they are amazing.

 

[nuck001]

Who's Dela?

I'm familier with the other five NPCs of Council of Six,but not this girl.Is she a canon character or a fan-made one?

Hidden

No Dela in Wowpedia.

 

[OutsiderXE]

Who's Dela?
View attachment 330539

I'm familier with the other five NPCs of Council of Six,but not this girl.Is she a canon character or a fan-made one?

Hidden

No Dela in Wowpedia.
View attachment 330538

There is a Dela Runetotem in WoW, but she's a tauren. It's a variation of my family name