Customised character theory

[Avator]

I was thinking: There are a lot of RPGs, and most of them want something to customize your character. Like most non-Wc3 RPGs, you can create your character's appearance. His/Her own head, torso, legs, arms, etc. So what if I would make a model with no mesh, only bones and attachment points for each bone. Then people can create the mesh in parts as attachments. You use the bone model as base for a complete model, you make a mesh (mesh 1), separate it in pieces (1 for each bone) and make each piece a single attachment. This way, if you attach all attachments of mesh 1 to the bone model, you will get the same result as if the mesh was 1 piece and part of the bone model. Now when you create another mesh (mesh 2), you also separate that into pieces and make every piece a single attachment, you can mix the 2 meshes on the bone model as attachments. For example, I take the arms and legs of mesh 1, and use the torso of mesh 2. This way, you can customize character appearance, which is highly in demand and usable for single player RPGs.

Does anybody know if this could cause trouble or if there's a bug in this theory?

 

[Reaper2008]

No bug (that I know of), just a ***load of work, both for modelers and map-makers.

 

[Avator]

I don't think it's that hard to make. Just as hard as making a normal model, maybe easier.

Ofcourse you have to split up the mesh in pieces, but on the other hand: You don't have to create the bones and animate it anymore, because that's in the bone model.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

There is a major bug!

In 3DSMAX you split your model into sections and then tick "Connected", which makes the seperate mesh parts connected (e.g. the arm is swinging back and forth[from sideviews], the lower arm mesh and the upper arm mesh will be seperated at the elbow, thats what "connected" makes disappear)

Attaching the body parts wouldnt have the same effect and the stuff i told you about would happen...
You can although try to fix that aswell, you'd need to model the joints aswell...
(left side max style, right side a way attachment base models could work)

But I dunno if thats cool at all...


And you would have all of the characters at the same size (like height ingame) and so on, as the attachment skeleton can only be resized in all dimensions at the same time!

I hope i could help!

 

[Avator]

Yea, that flow over different attachments is indeed a problem, but what did you mean with how it could be fixed? I didn't really understood that part.

As for the scaling: I don't mean to scale the bodyparts apart, like in games as Oblivion. All I mean with customizing characters is changing bodyparts.

If you could clarify that possible solution, it might work out. If not, it's possible to change all stiff bodyparts (like the head and torso) in a customized character, and put the movable ones by default on the bone model (which would need a new name then )


Thanks for the input! It's much appreciated and it might help getting some sort of new system going

 

[Wintermute]

The portrait will show nothing.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

i'm totally in to this idea, i'm thinking of that stuff for quite some while now on my own
combining this with a really cool fullscreen inventory would be like... mindblowing!
(like, i have some ideas for its layout already )


about the possible fix i'm going to attach a few pics that i hope are quite self explanatory
same would go for knees or anything else

 

[Avator]

Believe it or not, but I was thinking of that exact same solution

However, it comes with a new problem too. Some units have bigger arms then other. If you're putting together an orc, they have more thick arms (and thus elbows) then humans or night elves. Also they have a different skin. Now the scale of the elbows will just have to be something in between all races, so it'll match them all. And for the skin: I think that if a new mesh set is created for the bone model, it shouldn't just include the mesh attachments and skin of those attachments, but also a skin for the bone model's default mesh. So when an orc mesh is created, the creator should also make a skin for the bone model, to color the elbows and knee caps orc green as well to match the mesh he created.

Do you know of any other bugs or see problems with this bone-model skin idea?

 

[Just_Spectating]

i thought of that as well, but attaching things wouldnt change the portrait.

 

[Avator]

You got a good point there. To be honest, I didn't even think about the portrait.

It could be done with triggers if the head is fixed per race. You import the bone model + portrait 4 times and change the import file name to BoneModelHuman(_portrait).MDX and the other 3 races (if possible, never tried that). When the player chooses a race, the Bone model for that race is chosen, which has the default head and the portrait which only shows the head. It's probably the best shot we got.

 

[Just_Spectating]

that would mean you could only have 1 head per dummy model, and you'd have to create up to 4 dummy models, or more depending on how many heads and races you have.

what a big use of space for a small feature.

 

[Avator]

Yea, I know. 1 head per race is the best possible if you want to hang onto the portrait. Maybe it's possible to replace the portrait with something general. Not really a portrait, but something to fill that space and that could fit any race in any game.

Any idea's?

Oh wait, I just got an idea: What about a flag for that race? It can come along with the model, so it would fit the mesh attachments.

 

[Just_Spectating]

perhaps like, the battle standard for each race. not a flag, but like a static picture. or maybe even dynamic with particle effects for glowing runes and such.

 

[Avator]

I guess that's up to the creator of the mesh attachment set. As long as it's a logo or something to represent that race or set, it's all good ^^

I think this could be something really nice unless someone comes up with another problem for this theory.

 

[Just_Spectating]

im not sure how you can attach an arm, unless there is an arm attachment.

 

[Avator]

You can attach anything, just like attaching a weapon. You just make a point where it can be attached to and you attach the mesh to it. I don't know much about making those points, but I know you make the attachment points yourself when modelling, so you can place them anywhere you want.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

How about something like this?

One could make 100 Animations (that wouldnt be that much, as you'd only need to change the percantage mark on every anim)
And its shows the percantage of life left...
Maybe there could be something else, but a flag is kinda boring and a waste of space!

 

[Avator]

The portrait has always been a waste of space, just something to decorate the UI. As for the HP and MP in there: There's nobody who would even think about considering that and it's not necessary at all, because there already is a HP/MP bar straight below. The logo idea is probably best fitting, because it represents the unit best, just like the original portrait is meant for.

 

[Ham Ham]

This could be easily did in Magos War3Model Editor. But it would require a time of work that nobody has (after sc2 comes out, these models would get useless)

Also, remember the model would be portraitless.

 

[BlinkBoy]

It's actually very hard to make since attachment animations don't match with the model.

This idea is possible, however it's very limited. You would need to create a naked character and add attachments for arms, hands, etc. Also armor attachments would hardly stick together, so you'll have to use plates instead.

 

[Direfury]

Thing about this idea, the animations would either have to be very good, or very static. The mesh needs to stretch and bend in many anims. It's easier to just add a ton of Attachment points to a villager model.

 

[Avator]

@Ham Ham: If this shouldn't be done because sc2 is coming out soon, then why should we make wc3 maps at all? Why should people bother making models, maps, skins, terrains, etc. if it's all useless anyway? I think you get my point: The fact that sc2 comes out is no excuse to drop this.
And please read the previous posts before posting something like that about the portraits...

@BlinkBoy: The attachment parts are per 'stiff' mesh. 1 attachment isn't the entire arm, but it exists of the upper arm and the lower arm, which both have their own bone to be attached to. Morpheus posted an image on the previous page on how to connect the upper and lower arm. Same counts for all other connection points.

@Revellion: The same as what I said to BlinkBoy: Stiff meshes, 1 bone per attachment and the connection meshes in the bone model. There's no stretching or bending then.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

yeah, its not useless, even when sc2 is out...
this has really nothing to do with this thread here, if avator wanna do this, why you say something so destroying like that?

still i dont fancy the portrait idea...
dunno, the flag is kinda random and useless...

and the portrait is no waste of space, not for an rts, but for a rpg, as you know that you only hve one character per player (at least not as many as in rts)


as for the base skeleton
(we really should find right terms and define them in the first post for further argumentation i think...)
how about this:
somebody makes the whole unit (skeleton + mesh)
then the parts like lower and upper arm, chest, lower and upper leg and face gonna be detached, leaving the crook of the arm, the knee and other parts that need to bend in the base mesh and animate it
Now only thing one needs to do is modify the detached parts in different versions, but leaving the vertices that connect with the base skeleton the way they are...

you'd need a seperate skeleton for each race then though!

 

[Avator]

Why would you need a separate skeleton per race? They all move the same.

But it could be an idea for later use to make variations in the animations of the bone models. That way, you can choose which animations to match your RPG or something.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

because the elbwos would be part of the bone model then and it would have the apropriate skin on it (eg: rose for human, green for orc and so on)

And you dont need different animation sets, as you can call them up per triggers ingame?

like, there is a villager with lots of animations here in the database, you could start with this one

 

[Avator]

Ok, like that. And about the color: I thought I posted before that the creator of an attachment set should make a skin for the default meshes of the bone model or add it to the .ZIP if that skin already exists.

 

[Just_Spectating]

question,

does this feature mean you can create "any" type of hero?

id est, paladin head, orc body, nightelf arms, troll feet?

or is it going to be like,

orc head1, orc body4, orc arms2, orc feet1 (numbers can vary depending on the variations)

 

[NhazUl]

Do you even consider how buggy all this is?

Separate attachments do not become a whole. You can attach the troll's foot to a night elf's leg, but it will still be a mesh not connected to the other part. There will be no ankle. Or an arm. It will just float next to the torso without being connected to it.

 

[D a w n]

this technique could be only be used to create elementals because of the reason NhazUl pointed out.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

Well, only depends on the mass of models!

and sure the shoes for instance could be for all the races...
you'd only need to connect the inner verts!

 

[Avator]

For the love of mother******* god, I've explained clearly trice what's going to happen with the connection between meshes. I don't want a single post in this thread anymore about that topic unless it got something really new.

As for which meshes can be connected: That all depends on the mapper. The mapper is the person to decide which combination of meshes is allowed. If he allows an orc torso with night elf arms and undead legs and complains it's ugly, then that's his own fault. Not the modeller/skinner.

 

[BlinkBoy]

@BlinkBoy: The attachment parts are per 'stiff' mesh. 1 attachment isn't the entire arm, but it exists of the upper arm and the lower arm, which both have their own bone to be attached to. Morpheus posted an image on the previous page on how to connect the upper and lower arm. Same counts for all other connection points.

Still meshes won't stick together and it will look cracked. Unless you do like in the image, but you'll end up making LEGO models.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

okay, as avaot and me are the only ones who understood what i suggested and what ( i think avator did) we came upon as the best solution, i have made a quick pic...

(paint and fucking roller ball mouse Oo)

Like, the elbow is gonna be part of the skeleton.
Upper and lower arm will be attached and can be modified within the b ounds opf the blue lines, the turquoise line shows the edgeloop that needs to stay the way it is (otherwise the different upper and lower arm attachments wont fit proper)

 

[Avator]

The entire idea was to make lego models. You create the models yourself by attaching the meshes you want, just like Morpheus' picture.
Unfortunately, the colors are nearly all dark and it's hard to separate dark blue from black xD

If I got some more time, I might make an image that will make it very clear to everyone, which will probably be tomorrow.

 

[MeKC]

because the elbwos would be part of the bone model then and it would have the apropriate skin on it (eg: rose for human, green for orc and so on)

Its possible to change the skin on a unit model ingame.
Set the texture path to ReplacableID 31 on the unit, and use the Warclub ability

And you dont need different animation sets, as you can call them up per triggers ingame?

like, there is a villager with lots of animations here in the database, you could start with this one

Yes you can add alot of different animation sets to the model. Just remember to add an animation tag at the end of the animation. Also the tag need to be vaild. Like: Alternate, Gold, Lumber, Upgrade, Channel etc.

 

[Avator]

Here's a sample image of the theory. The thick gray lines are bones, the blank faces with the black lines are the meshes and the brown circles with thick outlines are the default meshes on the bone model. They make sure the meshes connect without clipping issues.
It's just a schematic sample. These are not the only bones, meshes and connection meshes that are going to be in the model if created.

Sample

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

well, i have a base unit if you want it, it would need a lot of polishing still (its a highpoly version of my orc slave driver and could be changed with ease) to make the polycount fit, but would be easier than making a new one...
Or are you planning to use some standard unit?
Then the villager should be your first choice...

Then you'd need to make yourself a plan of what you want to attach?

I think the following would work:

Hair
Face
chest
upper arm
lower arm
hand
upper leg
lower leg
foot

(and then you can attach armor to the same bones as the body itself)


well, weasnt there some texture swapping script you could use over at wc3c?
i searched but didnt find it anymore, maybe someone knows more about it and if its usefull

 

[Devine]

well, i have a base unit if you want it, it would need a lot of polishing still (its a highpoly version of my orc slave driver and could be changed with ease) to make the polycount fit, but would be easier than making a new one...
Or are you planning to use some standard unit?
Then the villager should be your first choice...

Then you'd need to make yourself a plan of what you want to attach?

I think the following would work:

Hair
Face
chest
upper arm
lower arm
hand
upper leg
lower leg
foot

(and then you can attach armor to the same bones as the body itself)


well, weasnt there some texture swapping script you could use over at wc3c?
i searched but didnt find it anymore, maybe someone knows more about it and if its usefull

there's no texture swapping script, I already asked eccho and dsg.
But.... you can still change color in the worldeditor... I'm talking about haircolor, cloth's color etc...
This means you only have to make some different models.

 

[Avator]

Why would you need to replace the texture? You just import the mesh for every skin for that mesh you have. So let's say you have 4 skins for the torso, you import the torso attachment 4 times and name them differently, giving them 1 texture each.

As for the attachments you posted, Morpheus. I think hair is not needed. It'll come along with the face. Probably the hands won't change a lot compared to the lower arm, so that can be 1 attachment as well. Foot on the other hand can be changed with different shoes, so they could be a good separate attachment point.

 

[Devine]

Why would you need to replace the texture? You just import the mesh for every skin for that mesh you have. So let's say you have 4 skins for the torso, you import the torso attachment 4 times and name them differently, giving them 1 texture each.

As for the attachments you posted, Morpheus. I think hair is not needed. It'll come along with the face. Probably the hands won't change a lot compared to the lower arm, so that can be 1 attachment as well. Foot on the other hand can be changed with different shoes, so they could be a good separate attachment point.

so you will actually do that? import all those meshes again >.<

 

[Avator]

Its just the same mesh, you just import it multiple times.

 

[infrenus]

Alright, I understand the idea and I think this could work. ANd for space this can have the cinematic/campaing screen textures and etc. I will try this when I go to home and post some screenshot of the result.

 

[Devine]

Its just the same mesh, you just import it multiple times.

but that would have quite a filesize

 

[Avator]

As I said: It's limited to single player RPGs, but that's who have this in highest demand. The MMORPGs can just kiss my beautiful behind

 

[Devine]

you could change the texture with texture animations though ...

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

there's no texture swapping script, I already asked eccho and dsg.

then eccho and dsg have no clue of wc3!

http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=103071

bam!

that would make different skin tones possible!
so you dont have the one skin on all of the units!

 

[MeKC]

You can only use replace one skin on the model. You cant i.e replace the shirt skin and pants skin sadly.

And I won't work on attachment

 

[Thyrael]

You can only use replace one skin on the model. You cant i.e replace the shirt skin and pants skin sadly.

And I won't work on attachment

You can, but you need a lot of textures. One for every combination of chest and legarmour. In my rpg I use this method and it looks really nice.

 

[Avator]

Can you link that map to see what exactly you did?

 

[MeKC]

You can, but you need a lot of textures. One for every combination of chest and legarmour. In my rpg I use this method and it looks really nice.

Lets say our footman model use two skins:
• Head (ReplaceableID 31)
• Body (ReplaceableID 32)

Then you can't use the warclub to change ID31 and ID32 on the same
model. Else you need to show me how, cuz I tested it, and it didn't work.