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[Altered Melee] Custom Race Creation (v7) -- _PROJECTNAMEHERE_

Discussion in 'Map Development' started by Kyrbi0, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    Hello, and Welcome to _PROJECTNAMEHERE_, my Great Work. This thread is meant to serve as the public face & discussion sub-forum for my various projects, linking it all together. Like, Comment, Favorite, Subscribe. ;D

    My goal/theme/motto with these factions & heroes is 3-fold:
    - Follows Blizzard precedent "as well as possible".
    - Does not conflict with existing races/abilities, except where noted.
    - Create the "best" (IMO), most Warcraft-y representation possible.

    People visiting this topic are welcome to:
    - Suggest ideas for the topic at hand.
    - Provide feedback for ideas posted by me.
    - Post any kind of cool race-related ideas.

    Thanks for checking this out; hope you can learn something and/or help me out with my progress.

    =GOALS=
    _PROJECT.ALPHA_
    "Rise of the Skull Empire"
    Jungle Troll custom race
    Jungle Troll campaign

    _PROJECT.BETA_
    "Warcraft 2 Veterans Tavern"
    ...

    _PROJECT.GAMMA_
    "Monolith Redux: Heroes Edition"
    ...

    _PROJECT.DELTA_
    "Hidden Factions #1"
    ...

    _PROJECT.EPSILON_
    "Hidden Factions #2"
    ...

    _PROJECT.ZETA_
    "Expanded Tavern"
    ...

    _PROJECT.ETA_
    "Goblin Warz"
    Alchemist's Union WIP
    Mektology Industries WIP

    ~List of Helpful Users / "Team Members"?~
    User
    Contribution
    cosmicat Original Discussionist and Idea Man
    theRowboat Custom Gnoll Race, Discussionist
    jigrael Freelance Modeller (so.. many... models :p)
    Askhati Concept Artist, Discussionist, Tester
    RenegadeMushroom Topic BUMPer, Custom Races, Tester
    Alexander244 "Wall of Zombies" Code, Coding Help
    Furion Tester
    Mechmap Tester (reviewed)
    Weazel Tester
    Purification Tester
    Michael Peppers Tester, Discussionist, some Concept Art, Custom AI
    deolrin Freelance Modeller
    ...




    The Archives

    -Lost to the Sands of Time
    "Custom Race Topic #1"
    "Custom Race Topic #2"
    Troll Conversion Topic
    //#3 presumably
    -GameFAQs
    Custom Race Topic #4
    "Custom Race Topic" #4.5 //"A Few More Questions"
    Custom Race Topic #5
    -Wc3C
    Custom Race Creation //#6 basically
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  2. Wareditor

    Wareditor

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    Interesting ( :
     
  3. Hayate

    Hayate

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    So Is the troll raptor guy screenie will be here? :D
     
  4. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    Sure. I should be doing it myself (big "race compilation" thingie), but I would definitely encourage the artists I work with to post WIPs here. This is the new Public face. ; )
     
  5. Naze

    Naze

    Off-Topic Moderator

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    I really dig the Alchemist's Union one, looking forward for the rest!
     
  6. Shar Dundred

    Shar Dundred

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    #BestProjectNameEvar
     
  7. stein123

    stein123

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    ¿Y yo? :'c
     
  8. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    Oh no, man, worry not; didn't you see the ellipses ("...")? That list is faaaaar from complete; in fact it hasn't been updated since probably 2009. xD

    Besides, my Troll map has way more on it (in terms of credits).
     
  9. stein123

    stein123

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    >:I ...... ♥
     
  10. Banelingline

    Banelingline

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    Okay, I'll be tackling the Nerubian idea, primarily, as I have more thoughts on the use of elements of it than the other things. By mechanic, to start with.

    Eggs: I have some opposition to the idea of using them for higher-up units, as the Nerubians are not minion spamming powerhouses like the Zerg, lore-wise (there's also the sizable increase in macro skill needed to make it work and the build space issues from needing to outright spam Town Halls to keep up in production, something none of the maps are designed to handle). They work for number-focused things and weak units (so t1 by definition), but not stuff like Spiderlords. So having them be a quick production method for t1 units is fitting, as is being part of the production method for higher-tier swarms. That said, it does fit some of Blizzard's design philosophy for the actual WC3 races, that being "How can we remix Starcraft race features?" By restricting it to the low-power units, having a mobile production method for them becomes easier to balance as you don't have as much problems coming from being able to suddenly pop out a t3 unit behind the enemy's largely-unprotected base. Maybe have all the production structures produce eggs for t1 units, so that the exceptionally weak t1 units come in absolute droves.

    Golem Builder: I think this is a bad idea, and is actually a mismatch with the lore. Not to go into detail, but the Obsidian Destroyers are Titan Constructs and the Gargoyles... Are unknown in origin. Mechanically, the problem here is that a unit subset is being made by a relatively mobile unit that does nothing but produce that subset of units, and said subset is primarily heavy hitters, and your builder is built by another builder, thus making expansion excessively micro/macro-heavy and easily interrupted because your worker bottleneck is another worker, and thus extremely fragile relative to the standard Town Hall.

    Morphing: This has some issues, particularly owing to the fact that you have a fast-moving fairly quick to make t2 unit turn into an outright flying siege unit of the long-production t3 variety. This means that an expensive, high-power unit can be produced at the speed of a unit you're intended to mass with, after a delay corresponding to an appropriate construction time for such a unit. The flanking potential brought on by this is extremely worrying, and you end up with a case where, upon getting to t3, the enemy now has to hurry and locate all of a t2 skirmisher or else face being surrounded by t3 siege units. Yes, this is high micro, but this is the sort of thing you have to account for higher end gameplay. It's made worse by having all Town Halls be able to produce any unit, so every expansion has almost the same production ability as your main base and need only have defenses and more Town Halls ever built there, rather than any thing vulnerable.

    My ideas on particular units/structures will wait for another post...
     
  11. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    Oh, wow, wait... You actually followed the links & read some of my previous topics?? I'm flattered. : )

    Unfortunately, the Nerubians are a bit far-distant (& possibly to-be-replaced, for a few reasons). I love them & many of the ideas associated with them, but such is life. That, plus, my general distance from them (been a while since I thought of them) means I might not quite be be able to say much about your critique. However, I greatly appreciate it; it's obvious you've put thought into it, so I'd be remiss not to respond. : )

    Hm. I could see that being a potential path to take; low-Tier units being spawned. However, the thing that comes to mind is "How did Blizzard do it & have it be OK in Starcraft"? Because obviously in Starcraft the Zerg do exactly that (spawn everything from Drones to Ultralisks).

    Thematically, ill fite u IRL I may disagree... But in part because I have a smaller scope. See, I really don't love many of the Lore decisions made in WoW, so I tend to limit how much I let it influence me & my custom stuff. Basically, I tend to design stuff as if WoW didn't exist, or in the interim between TFT & WoW-Vanilla.
    So lore-wise (*looking for manual*) , all we know about the Obsidian Statues is that they are "believed to be gifts granted by Ner'zhul... often used as figureheads... of... armies". Gargoyles are "voracious flying creatures... brought from the frozen north by the ... Lich King". (so yeah, basically 'unknown')
    Anyway, it's clear we don't know much about them, but I vaguely recall reading some rationale for them being Nerubian in make (or design or something), and that was part of what inspired me. (In actuality, though, I didn't plan on using the Obsidian Statue/Destroyer/Gargoyle in the Nerubian race (since I try to design without overlapping standard Wc3), so I don't know where the concern came from to be honest...)

    The other part, though, is just that (again vaguely) I recall Nerubians being golem-builders, that that was their 'thing'. And it makes more sense for big burly Golems to construct buildings than spindly spider-dudes, right?

    Finally, mechanically... You may be right. While it's unique, it may be a step too much. I'd like to say that it could be balanced, but ah dannae.

    Again, I have to say "sounds good, but how did Blizzard get around it?" Because the Mutalisk (swarmy T2 aerial unit) could transform into the Guardian (giant T3 siege-y aerial unit). It worked/is balanced there... Why not here? : )

    Looking forward to it. Can't promise I'll get to respond as fast as I did here... I've really been piling up the To-Dos & have to catch up on a lot. :<
     
  12. MogulKahn

    MogulKahn

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  13. Banelingline

    Banelingline

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    I have had to retype this... Three times. Because for some reason, the draft keeps getting axed.

    They have a lot more time and skill to balance it than you ever will, and the end result is still a janky mess at the low end. Zerg Rush exists because of the system's innate function, if you turned down the rate much you'd end up hopelessly behind on economy, or be forced to have an absolutely insane early game economy that falls off extremely hard late-game.

    They did the architecture for the Scourge, not any golem work. So you probably confused types of construction (seriously, it's called the Nerubian Tower, what the heck were you thinking?)

    The way armor works in WC3 and the mechanical needs of the Stinger, really. Being a non-spawned melee unit, the Stinger has to be fairly durable in addition to being rather high speed in order to live long enough to deal decent damage. Throwaway built units, in general, don't work out well in WC3 as the forces are smaller by a lot and resources are less desposable. It's a much slower game with a much stronger emphasis on endurance, with the frailest units all being stuff not supposed to be on the front line.

    ---

    At any rate, I'll be covering just one unit this time (the first two times died because I tried covering all four heroes). Namely, the Spider Lord Hero. My biggest thing is that I'd like it to be more of a Paladin kind of melee than a Tauren Chieften kind, mostly because we have something of an overload of melee beatstick damagers and I like quirky support heroes. Another dichotomy to somewhat follow would be the one between Paladin and Death Knight, having similar in outcome abilities that act differently in practice and support very different playstyles. Given this, have a proposed ability list:

    Sanguine Scarabs: A variation on both Carrion Beetles (using that ability for the base ability) and Locusts (somewhat the theme of the unit itself), this would be the "heal" for the Spider Lord and the main summon. Less baseline health than the Carrion Beetle, it'd make that up with a life-transfer ability based on Drain Life from the Dark Ranger. This ability has a field for transfering life just like the Blood Mage's ability to do so with mana, complete with overcharge values, so the ability can transfer life to allies by draining it from the Sanguine Scarab. Level 2 gives a passive lifesteal to reduce the cooldown conflict and boost durability, while level 3 makes them airborn and able to drain and heal air units, as well as ground units. If mana is used for the ability, it could also drain mana at level 2 and up to use the ability more frequently. Fluff-wise, Carrion Beetles and Locusts are too in line with existing Nerubian abilities to be purely a result of Undeath, so the Locusts being underdeveloped/larval/young Carrion Beetles and the Beetles being twisted by Undeath/rapid growth to lose the life stealing where they normally wouldn't is at least excusable.

    Frigid Aura: In replacement of Spiked Carapace (which is obviously undeath-based mutation), this gives durability increases... By slowing enemies to reduce the damage they deal, improving attack capacity at the same time by reducing their ability to escape. While decidedly offensive in most effective use, this downright forces the Spider Lord to be in melee to get the most enemies possible, as well as encouraging flanking to block off enemy escape and slow down their ranged unit's attacks to reduce damage dealt more than the front lines. Fluff-wise, the Nerubian Tower shows that the Nerubians have a significant amount of skill with frost magic. A passive ability based on using this to slow enemies in a decently large area works out thematically, though balance could require it to be an Immolate variation that uses triggers to pull the slow with the channeled mana cost AoE.

    Toxic Spines: More mana efficient, but DoT instead of stun,version of Impale. No idea on the fluffsplanation, but you basically have more damage per point of mana, with about a third of the total shifted off to a DoT to make the immediate damage a little lower or the same as Impale. Not much to say, stun swapped for moar, cheaper, damage that comes at at a delay. Keeping the stun would cause problems in combination with Frigid Aura, as escape ends up practically impossible due to stuns allowing catchup.

    Ultimate: Not sure what to do here. Either a personal life transfer/steal of some kind, allowing for long-duration overheals that decay extremely slowly and using it to save allies in emergencies or Upgrade for a sizable boost to speed and/or damage, while getting better versions of the normal abilities (such as enabling overheal on Sanguine Scarabs, making Toxic Spines apply a slow to cause rock-bottom movement on most units and boosting range on Frigid Aura to cover most of the screen)