[Campaign] Night Elf-Worgen Custom Race (Brainstorming)

[GrevinGadal]

Hi Everyone, I've been lurking about the Hive Workshop for years. I've loved the work of your assets creators and map makers and, now that I'm dipping my toes back into map creation, I decided to get a bit more interactive. Perhaps at some point I'll even be able to give something back.

For newcomers to this thread, welcome, and the current version of this techtree is here.

To the topic of this post:

I'm building a custom race, which is designed to represent an alliance of Night Elf and Worgen survivors of the Burning of Teldrassil. These survivors were cut off from Darnassus and its portals, but managed to make it to the roots of the tree and escape by ship. I'm trying to design the race to reflect the costs of the Burning and their nature as a ragtag band. This race is intended for use in a Campaign I've been writing ideas for, for a while.

I'd love to get others' thoughts on this.

So far the race features the following successfully or partially implemented features:

• Gilnean Architecture: I'm presuming that many of the remaining Ancients were consumed by the fires and so the race uses majority Gilnean building designs. These draw on the excellent models of Ujimasa Hojo.
• Human Construction and Gold/Lumber Collection: Thousands of Wisps sacrificed during the War of Thorns to hold back the attack. Because of this, I'm likely going to use a Night Elf peasant-like unit to show that this group of Night Elves cannot rely on their union with nature as much as they once did.
• Enchantments: This is a new take on unit upgrades, and I've called them "enchantments" to distinguish them. Using the "Charge Gold and Lumber" ability I'm giving units the ability to upgrade on an individual, rather than unit-type, basis. This would not replace the "tiered" traditional weapon/armor/caster level upgrades but would displace most others. The intent is that enchantments are individual because of their potential to make units more unique than upgrades would, but not so much that they should simply be a separate unit.

Example:
I've given the Archer an enchantment that enables them to reduce their armor by 1 and gain a "Thorns" ability that effects only that unit. Other enchantments I considered for the Archer would be a choice of "arrow type" (Fire/Frost/Dark) that doesn't use mana, rather a cooldown so it only triggers on every second or third arrow. This maintains the Archer's role as a basic ranged unit, but tailors it to suit the player's preferences.​

Features that I'm thinking about but haven't tested or implemented yet:

• Worgen Curse: I'm thinking trying to link the Worgen curse to the day/night cycle. I'm not sure if the curse works this way in Warcraft lore, but I do like the thematic relation to traditional ideas of werewolves. The mechanical effect would be something like this:

The "Predator", a basic melee Worgen unit, is effectively two units in one. During the day, it is a human-form melee fighter, but when night falls in game, it transforms into a wolf-form melee attacker. Each form has slightly different abilities.​

• Static Defence: This race would achieve static defense by granting individual buildings an attack (either an actual attack or an immolation-based one), either permanently or temporarily. It is inspired by the call down ability of Alarak in SC2. I'm not sure yet how mechanically to grant it. I've considered the following options:

Option One:
The race has a "Vengeful Spirit" unit that can go into friendly buildings to grant them an attack and can also be ejected.

Option Two:
The race has a "Call Down" ability (I'm thinking of implementing it with a "hero" to create a button in that part of the screen, and then using triggers so that clicking on that hero immediate re-selects to a dummy unit, and force a UI key press on that ability's hotkey that actually casts the ability). The Call Down ability would have either a gold/lumber cost, likely if its permanent, or be a "rechargeable" ability with a mana cost if it's temporary.​

• Static Defence (Alternative): Another idea I liked was to make the race have "wild beasts" as a tertiary pseudo-resource. This would involve one of two mechanical options:

Option One:
The race builds "cage" buildings and then has to go out and find certain beasts that they can "tame" (probably an ability). Once the beast is tamed, it can be placed into a cage and the cage building turns into a "caged beast" with an attack like that of the beast that was placed inside.

Option Two:
The race relocates animal dens (creep camps) by destroying the creep camp. The camp yields an item that builds a new "Den" structure and triggers manage creep respawns around the Den. The creeps would not be under the race's control, but whether they'd be friendly or hostile to all, I'm not sure.​

Features that I haven't really developed at all but know I still need to:

• Unit Ideas: Caster Units, Air Units, Siege Units, Ultimate Unit

Thank you, in advance, for any thoughts you have. I'd love to flesh this out some more.

 

[Trill]

Sounds interesting.
Here's some ideas:

Regarding static defense, I like the vengeful spirit idea, but maybe without ejecting. Consider this: Wisps can no longer build, but can "possess" a building, probably entangling it with roots (Entangled Gold Mine buff model) and attacking with underground roots.
In fact, considering the Burning provided quite a lot of Wisps - who are dead night elf souls - you could probably use Wisps as main caster units. Rename them Vengeful Wisps or Burning Wisps or Bitter Wisps. Unlike other factions they could consume just 1 Food and be rather expendable.
Their abilities could be:
Memory of Burning - immolation. Rather strong, but damages the Wisp itself.
Wisp Wall - divine shield, but roots the Wisp in place.
Force of Nature - they may lack the strength to grow into new Ancients, but they can still animate trees. Basically a very weak Force of Nature, creating just one Treant.
Entangle Building - as described above.

Siege unit:
Smoldering Protector - burnt and maddened Ancient Protector, who lost ability to properly root (as his roots were burnt off). Can root for a short time, gaining an aura that damages nearby buildings.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The werewolf thing should apply to all worgen units, making them more bestial (better at melee) at night and more human (better at magic and abilities) in the day. So worgen heroes would gain strength and lose intelligence at night and lose it/get it back in the day, worgen casters have slower mana regen but more health and damage at night, etc.

The wild beasts defense is intriguing, you should develop that.

This thread has some ideas for a refugee race.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Regarding static defense, I like the vengeful spirit idea, but maybe without ejecting. Consider this: Wisps can no longer build, but can "possess" a building, probably entangling it with roots (Entangled Gold Mine buff model) and attacking with underground roots.
In fact, considering the Burning provided quite a lot of Wisps - who are dead night elf souls - you could probably use Wisps as main caster units. Rename them Vengeful Wisps or Burning Wisps or Bitter Wisps. Unlike other factions they could consume just 1 Food and be rather expendable.

I love this concept for the Wisp. Actually just the other day I was looking at models and found this model for an "evil wisp" by Em! At the time I didn't give it a second thought.

Based on your ideas, I'm currently thinking of something like:

Effigy

Effigy

Spirits of the first Kaldorei who lost their lives to the flames in the Burning of Teldrassil. They have become vengeful from the circumstances of their deaths. Now they linger on with the survivors of their people, bitterly determined to protect those who remain at any cost.

• Basic Caster Unit
• Trained at Tier 1 Combat Unit Production Building (Requires Combat Upgrade Building, which keeps it consistent with other static defense options)
• Weak ranged attack
• Has the following core spells:

Entangle Building: Entangles a building you own, permanently giving the building an attack that strikes enemy units from below with roots. This ability uses up the Effigy.

Wrath of Nature: The effigy enters a tree, animating it into a treant for a short time. This ability uses up the Effigy.

Ancestral Ward: The effigy roots in place and channels a spell to support its allies. While channeling, it grants it grants nearby allies increased armor and imposes a movement speed penalty on enemy units.​

• Has the following enchantment options, which grant an additional spell. Each unit may only have one:

Tears of Fire: The effigy unleashes fiery damage on surrounding enemy units and itself.

Revival: The effigy enters a friendly unit, applying a beneficial buff. This ability uses up the Effigy.

I'm debating this one between a) Grants the target unit one charge of reincarnation, or b) Heal-Over-Time ability with an Area of Effect (perhaps also healing dead trees?)​

​

What are your thoughts? It has a number of abilities that use up the unit, but that seems thematically appropriate.

 

[GrevinGadal]

The werewolf thing should apply to all worgen units, making them more bestial (better at melee) at night and more human (better at magic and abilities) in the day. So worgen heroes would gain strength and lose intelligence at night and lose it/get it back in the day, worgen casters have slower mana regen but more health and damage at night, etc.

That is certainly the direction I'm looking to go in. The race's basic melee unit is likely a worgen, the "Predator" that I mentioned. I'm just not sure what to do with his human form during the day. One of the things that got me excited about this race concept is that both Night Elves and Werewolves/Worgen share that thematic relationship to the moon and the time of day, which of course is mechanically represented in Warcraft 3.

I've experimented with some combination of triggers and the Druid of the Claw's transform ability to make this work. So far it encounters problems that I don't even understand. So I'm thinking that, instead, I'll use a trigger than picks all units of each worgen type at the right time of day and replaces them? I'm just thinking out loud here.

The wild beasts defense is intriguing, you should develop that.

This thread has some ideas for a refugee race.

I love both the beasts idea and the "haunting" system that I mentioned. This campaign will call for more than one race, however, (or at least variations on this one) so in the end I'm definitely going to be developing this further. I have had some other thoughts on mechanics that draw on "creep manipulation" as well.

Feralism

Feralism

Units with the "Feral" ability have a random chance of changing to become neutral passive and running off into the wilds every ??? seconds. Once they have been in this state for a little while, they become neutral hostile (this grace period is mostly to avoid it just getting ganked by surrounding units). They can be reclaimed by Beast Tamers (easier if it was your unit to begin with, you must also have the food for it). Units with the "Feral" Ability will never go feral while a Beast Tamer is nearby.​

Also, thanks for that link, I'll have a look for sure.

 

[Trill]

Regarding flying units, what about something like this:
Air Treant (just kidding, I have no idea what name to give them)
Seeking to escape fiery death, many nature spirits of Teldrassil took airborne forms. With their original roots destroyed they are now stuck in these aerial shapes and full of rage.
Using this model.
Cheap, rather weak and fragile, costs 2 food, melee attacks against air units, ranged against ground. Have modified Web that uses Entangling Roots model and can target ground units too (so it is sort of auto-cast melee Ensnare).
Could also have an auto-cast self-buff that rapidly regenerates their health, to help them get into enemy fliers' melee range, but keeping them otherwise fragile.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Regarding flying units, what about something like this:
Air Treant (just kidding, I have no idea what name to give them)
Seeking to escape fiery death, many nature spirits of Teldrassil took airborne forms. With their original roots destroyed they are now stuck in these aerial shapes and full of rage.
Using this model.
Cheap, rather weak and fragile, costs 2 food, melee attacks against air units, ranged against ground. Have modified Web that uses Entangling Roots model and can target ground units too (so it is sort of auto-cast melee Ensnare).
Could also have an auto-cast self-buff that rapidly regenerates their health, to help them get into enemy fliers' melee range, but keeping them otherwise fragile.

I really like the concept driving the abilities there, a light attack flyer that grabs enemies and then just ganks them.

Thematically, I was doing some research on Teldrassil before the Burning (actually just flying around in WoW after chatting with that Bronze Dragon that sends you back in time) and realized that there was a Harpy Matriarchy in the boughs of the Tree, the Bloodfeather.

I imagine that the harpies would probably have escaped, given that they can fly. So they could join as flying units, if the Night Elves and Worgen encounter them in the campaign and they have some kind of shared interests to bring them together?

I could see Harpies being units that would try to entrap an enemy and then swarm all over them.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Predator: Has Ensnare in daytime, replaced with Frenzy at night.

Casters:
Night Elf Hamadryad: Has Entangle, Rejuvenation and Reforest (creates a small (4-5) amount of trees on grassy terrain or stumps).
Worgen Warmage: Melee spellcaster. Has Howl of Terror, Devour Magic, and Bloodlust. Regenerates mana slower at night, gains increased health and damage.

If there's a model of a Night Elf riding a wolf/Worgen, that could come in handy for a combo unit, like a melee unit with an selfcasting ranged attack/ability.

Worgen/Night Elf Beastcaller: When created, is either a worgen or a night elf (different stats, same spells and function). Has Resistant Skin.
* Can use the Tame Beast ability to control a target beast creep. Two captured beasts can use the Create Den ability on a building to allow that type of beast (e.g. wolf, bear, hawk, thunder lizard...) to be summoned from that building.
* Word of the Wild: Targeted animal or animal-using unit (Knight, Gryphon Rider, Kodo Beast, Chimera, etc.) cannot move.

Ultimate unit: Choose a tamed creep and basically supercharge it, giving it magic and combat training. For example, wildkin with healing spells, thunder lizards with Stampede, teleporting bears with Cleave, etc.

 

[Trill]

entrap an enemy and then swarm all over them.

This gave me an idea for an ultimate unit.

Bloodfeather Matriarch
7 food (!), very expensive in gold and lumber
decently tough, but generally kinda weak for its cost
ranged attack
abilities:
Entrapment - grounds, immobilizes, reduces defense.
Flock to Me - summons 7 Bloodfeather Furies for 30 seconds; 60 second cooldown.

Furies are as weak as level 1 creeps, have no special abilities, melee attacks, and upon spawning automatically seek to attack an ensnared target.

 

[GrevinGadal]

This gave me an idea for an ultimate unit.

Bloodfeather Matriarch
7 food (!), very expensive in gold and lumber
decently tough, but generally kinda weak for its cost
ranged attack
abilities:
Entrapment - grounds, immobilizes, reduces defense.
Flock to Me - summons 7 Bloodfeather Furies for 30 seconds; 60 second cooldown.

Furies are as weak as level 1 creeps, have no special abilities, melee attacks, and upon spawning automatically seek to attack an ensnared target.

I like it. Alternatively, it could also form the basis of a hero unit, perhaps.

I've been experimenting in the map editor, and I've managed to get the worgen day/night transformations to work smoothly. As is my custom, I was overthinking the process. Essentially, I now have one trigger that events at 1800 and gives all human-form Predators a "Chaos" ability that transforms them instantly into their worgen-form counterpart. A second trigger events at 0600 and gives them an ability that turns them back to human-forms.

I've also put in a trigger to handle moonstones. Thematically, these time-driven transformations are becoming a prominent theme, so I thought that giving the faction a mechanical option to impose at least a little control over the day-night cycle might be a good idea.

I know this isn't a triggers section in the forums, but I thought I'd mention how its implemented in case anyone is interested.

teleporting bears with Cleave

That might be the most terrifying phrase I've ever read.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!


Siege: Ballista

Melee siege: Worgen Lumberjack: Lumber-harvesting unit, can rip up a tree to serve as a battering ram for X hits, also gains Pulverize.

Detector: Worgen Tracker, has True Sight and Faerie Fire.

Night Elf Refugee: Automatically generated unit with no cost, can be garrisoned inside some Night Elf buildings to give them extra defenses. Demoralizes nearby night elf units when killed.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Search your feelings, you know it to be true!


Siege: Ballista

Melee siege: Worgen Lumberjack: Lumber-harvesting unit, can rip up a tree to serve as a battering ram for X hits, also gains Pulverize.

Detector: Worgen Tracker, has True Sight and Faerie Fire.

Night Elf Refugee: Automatically generated unit with no cost, can be garrisoned inside some Night Elf buildings to give them extra defenses. Demoralizes nearby night elf units when killed.

I like all of these ideas. The refugee idea I like a lot. It's not something I see as a standard tech-tree unit, but as something that would come into play in a mission.

The mission idea comes to me as:

• The Survivors have put down an encampment as a place to gather and protect refugees.
• The encampment is imperiled by something (perhaps this is first contact with another custom race) leading to the primary objective: to eliminate the threat to the encampment.
• As the player is contending with this threat, refugees start arriving. Some head straight for the camp while others get lost in the wilderness and would need to be rescued.
• Saving a certain number of refugees is an option objective, but is incentivised through a carrot-and-stick of granting buffs when refugees are rescued and debuffs when a certain number is killed.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I like a *lot* what's going on in this thread; subscribing for later.

 

[Mister_Haudrauf]

• Worgen Curse: I'm thinking trying to link the Worgen curse to the day/night cycle. I'm not sure if the curse works this way in Warcraft lore, but I do like the thematic relation to traditional ideas of werewolves. The mechanical effect would be something like this:

The "Predator", a basic melee Worgen unit, is effectively two units in one. During the day, it is a human-form melee fighter, but when night falls in game, it transforms into a wolf-form melee attacker. Each form has slightly different abilities.

I am suddenly thinking of a Lunar Cycle:
Moon & Worgen transformation Cycle:
Day 1: 25%
Day 2: 50%
Day 3: 75%
Day 4: 100% (Full Moon, Worgen transformation will occure)
Day 5: 75%
Day 6: 50%
Day 7: 25%
Day 8: 0% (New Moon, Worgen transformation won't occure)


I don't know, if this is good for your project or not. But i think it is useful for Feral/Uncivilized Worgen Stories/Tales/Campaign's.

 

[Trill]

What about a caster using a Tauren model? Call it something like Penitent Druid.
I've seen people really confused why Horde Druids would go along with killing of Malfurion and the Burning, so this could represent Horde Druids trying to atone and repair the damage.
Not sure about the spells, it will depend on what you need. I guess a spell to regrow trees would be fitting both in terms of flavour and to alleviate the fact that you'll both chop trees old-fashioned way and convert them to treants.

 

[GrevinGadal]

I am suddenly thinking of a Lunar Cycle:
Moon & Worgen transformation Cycle:
Day 1: 25%
Day 2: 50%
Day 3: 75%
Day 4: 100% (Full Moon, Worgen transformation will occure)
Day 5: 75%
Day 6: 50%
Day 7: 25%
Day 8: 0% (New Moon, Worgen transformation won't occure)


I don't know, if this is good for your project or not. But i think it is useful for Feral/Uncivilized Worgen Stories/Tales/Campaign's.

Because my project is focused on being at RTS Campaign, I'm not sure how complex I want to make the day/night cycle. That said, I think this is an interest idea, perhaps for something like a werewolf map or a project focused on the story of the Worgen Curse in Gilneas itself.

What about a caster using a Tauren model? Call it something like Penitent Druid.
I've seen people really confused why Horde Druids would go along with killing of Malfurion and the Burning, so this could represent Horde Druids trying to atone and repair the damage.
Not sure about the spells, it will depend on what you need. I guess a spell to regrow trees would be fitting both in terms of flavour and to alleviate the fact that you'll both chop trees old-fashioned way and convert them to treants.

I've actually wondered that, myself. One would think that Tauren Druids, who are part of the Cenarion Circle would never countenance a mission to kill Malfurion, which was the official objective, and would certain be disgusted by the Burning of Teldrassil. Perhaps later in the campaign, a group of tauren druids appear and join the survivors. Not that they are abandoning the Horde, per se, but they do feel an obligation to heal the wounds caused by the Burning.

An ability to heal trees would also thematically appropriate and mechanically useful. It feels like a very tauren attitude, to try and heal the land and the people at the same time.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The moon effect map could be something like people making moon magic go haywire (Priestesses of Elune gone bad?) with those effects on the worgen, and the mission is to stop them.

Wisp Binding: Wisp is attached to the target Ancient, giving it stat bonuses. Like haunting, except... the opposite.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Thank you all so far for your ideas, I've made more progress in developing this faction in the past two days than I ever expected. I'll be posting up a more comprehensive list of what I've implemented and the inspirations when I'm back on my own PC later today.

I've started to move my attention to the question of Hero Design.

I have only basic concepts at the moment. However, so far I have a number of key objectives. These objectives are open to change, but they represent my current thinking:

• Each hero should be reflective of a key aspect of the faction
• Each race within the faction should be represented at least once

The ideas I have so far are:

Venatre

• Venatre is one of the main two characters of the campaign, likely to be the first "point of view" hero. She is the leader of the group of survivors about whom the campaign will tell its story.

• Mechanically she is a Melee Intelligence Hero (possibly not "true melee" but possibly the short range "pseudo melee" that is represented in huntresses and spell breakers). I haven't seen a Melee Intelligence Hero implemented and would appreciate input on what kind of mechanics would be appropriate. I am thinking of spells like Mana Shield and Blink to give her survivability.

• Thematically, she is probably a part of the Sisterhood of Elune. In terms of lining up with faction theme, she would represent the Night Elf side of manipulating the Day/Night cycle.

• One of her spells will be some kind of frost or water-based Area of Effect. I know this much at least because in the mission in which she escapes Teldrassil, I want one of her own abilities to be able to clear fires in her way. What else it does, I'm not sure. If she's a support hero, then probably some kind of heal or buff. If she's an offensive hero, then probably some kind of crowd control or damage.[/hidd

Gage

• Gage is the other leader of the survivors. He is a Gilnean Worgen.

• Melee he is likely an Agility Hero, both Melee and Ranged. During the day, he adopts his ranged form, using either a blunderbuss or two small pistols (depending on what models I end up going with), and emphasises the use of technology. During the night, he turns into a melee worgen form and emphasises a more animalistic style.

• Due to the transformation I am not sure how to handle his hero abilities. One option is to effective store his abilities and their levels in variables. For ease of design and a bit of thematic symmetry I would like to make his Human/Worgen abilities effectively mirror images of one another. So, for instance, his "Q" abilities in each form would be virtually identical, with only enough difference to fit being melee/ranged.

Ship Hero

• This one is probably one of the more radical concepts. I would like the ship that the Survivors escape on to be a hero unit, as it will likely play a role in several missions. Experience would represent the experience of the crew and its First Mate.

• I have really no idea what kind of abilities i would give this hero, at the moment.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I have so much more to say, but you're talking about Hero design which is one of my favorite things. Unfortunately I cannot speak at the length I am accustomed to (so much to do), but a few things:

- You are so incredibly on point re: "represent my current thinking". Good good good.
- Don't forget Hero #4
- The Goblin Tinker is a Melee Intelligence hero in the standard game, actually. He's also a great example of one; being INT usually means lacking STR (i.e. HP), but Melee means he's in the fray (i.e. needs HP). You'll notice that he's designed very carefully, in such a way as to 'enable' a Melee INT hero to function:
- - Pocket Factory is a summon which provides a building & lots of bodies (to help distract & tank for him)
- - Cluster Rockets has a short stun (allows him to maneuver a bit more around Stunned foes)
- - Engineering Upgrade increases his movespeed & buffs all his other abilities (again, maneuvering)
- - Robo-Goblin makes him Mechanical & buffs his STR & armor (truly "turning him into a tank" xD)
I attempted to take many of the same considerations for my team's entry in the Wc3C.net Hero Contest #3 (the "Dark Apothecary"). So consider that when designing a Melee INT hero.
- If you are designing to 'match' the standard melee game, a few considerations I've gleaned over the years:
- - Make sure your Ultimates are ULTIMATE. I learned this the hard way. Granted this isn't some MOBA with world-ending stuff, but make sure the player feels excited to reach Level 6 & access that ability. Metamorphosis, Tornado, Mass Teleport, Inferno, Resurrection...
- - Take note of the fact that the vast majority (over 75% (can't find my charts...)) of Heroes have at least one Direct Damage (DD) ability. It's very common, and though it may feel "too simple/easy", it's important. Wc3 is an RTS with RPG elements, not a full-on MOBA; the player isn't just controlling the Hero but an entire army & a base/economy to boot. So a super-complex hero can be problematic, and a DD ability is sort of a mental 'breath of fresh air', an ability the player can quickly read & grok & say "ah, OK, I know what this does & don't have to think about it, Next?".
- - On that note, remember the power of simplicity. It can be tempting to stick all the coolest ideas into your custom faction (especially your first). Also, it can be tempting, having seen all the crazy creativity among modders of the last decade+, to be dissatisfied with simple spells & abilities & instead be tempted to cram crazy new concepts & abilities in there. But again let me implore you: "Keep It Simple, Stupid". "Easy to learn; difficult to master" is the Blizzard mantra.
- - A painful point I feel obligated to warn you about in this 'wondrous' discipline of custom race/hero design... Buffs Don't Stack. However, as of 1.30 they totally do! There are some bugs but a whole world of design is opened up to us! : D
- - Finally, I hate to tell you this but one thing you'll want to steer clear of is copying other (hero) abilities. You'll find that, aside from certain special exceptions (racial abilities like Shadowmeld, thematic abilities like Cannibalize, race-standard abilities like Backpack), there's not a single copied ability between the 4 standard factions. Even abilities that are similar (Web/Ensnare, Dispel Magic/Disenchant) often have some structural difference.
So while you may indeed want abilities like Blink or Mana Shield, for example, I would advise you not to use them specifically.

Now for your Heroes themselves:
- Remind me the different races in this faction? Night Elves & Worgen... Is that it? If so, are you (probably reasonably) going for 2 of each?
- Also, while the Proper/Campaign Name is nice, what really matters for the design is the "Hero Name" or "Class Name". i.e. don't talk to me about Uther, tell me about the Paladin(s). : ) Much more in line with the kind of conversation you need to have to design them.
- There's so much more to say about Theme/Form & Role/Function, but alas it's nearly 4am & I've got to wrap this up. Perhaps if you have time do a Google search of the Hive for my name & those phrases ("theme", "role", "form and/vs./slash function") & you'll find some stuff I've written about before. But anyway, I'll do what I can.
(on that note)
- [HERO 1]
- - What's her Role/Function/Gameplay/Mechanical Identity? Does she support, does she tank, does she nuke, does she heal? Etc.
- - Perhaps a "Vanguard"? Or a "Moon Guardian"? Or a "Lunar Disciple"?
- - water/frost... Hm, tricky for Elune. I might almost go for moon/night-themed ability that can have the same effect; a sort of "Moonquell" or an "Elipse"? Something that sorta takes the "silence of the night" concept & turns it into a combat spell?
Otherwise, I guess water fits slightly more than frost because the moon & tides, etc.
- - Depending on how supportive she's supposed to be, I could see a passive 'attack-enhancer' that buffs/heals nearby friendly units for every attack she makes on an enemy (like "Valor" or somesuch). That's also survival-oriented.
- - Perhaps rather than straight-up Blink, you could use a simple Blink-Strike (mobility/survival, but also offensive uses)
- - Similarly, instead of Mana Shield, perhaps a souped up Elune's Grace (protection from Piercing & Spells) or Defend (same but toggled).
- - - Do you have a model in mind?
- [HERO 2]
- - What's his Role/Function/Gameplay/Mechanical Identity (see above)?
- - Perhaps a "Nightwalker", or a "Lupine Commander", or a "Wolf Lord" or a "Lord of the Pack" or a "Grand Werewolf" or...
- - The whole morphing thing is really hard for me to weigh in on. So many options... I don't really know. I like an Ultimate, but then he doesn't get to morph til much later. Urgh.
- [HERO 3]
- - Yeah need some more to go on. But would personally love seeing a "Daelin Proudmoore-styled" Naval Captain style hero. Or a "Living Davy Jones" style hero. Lots of cool options.

~~~

So much more to say, but good luck!

 

[cleavinghammer]

Ideas for ship Hero spells (for a galleon-type ship):

Broadside (Active): Fires a volley of cannonballs on either side of the ship (+/- 90° of the ship's facing).

Man the Harpoons! (Active): Fires a volley of harpoons at the target area, stunning and damaging non-mechanical enemies in the AoE. Giant creatures are slowed after the stun ends.

Fighting Sail (Active, toggled): When active, ship loses its main attack but can now fire on the move and moves faster.

Crew (Passive improvements):
* Carpenter: Passively regenerates health.
* Bosun: Reduces cooldown rates for all abilities.
* Sawbones: Units loaded in the ship slowly heal.
* Chaplain: Increases mana regeneration.
* Lookout: Gives True Sight and increases sight and attack range.
* Quartermaster (Spellbook): Changes the cannons' ammunition (and the ship's attack type) to iron (Hero), grapeshot (Normal), alchemical (Magic), and heated iron (Siege).

Boarding Parties: Releases a flotilla of jollyboats towards a target enemy ship. Target ship is stunned and invulnerable while the jollyboats are within X range of the target (returned to normal if they move away or are all killed).

All Hands On Deck! (Active, drains mana): While active, increases the ship's damage, movement speed and attack speed.

Passenger Quarters: Increases the amount of units the ship can carry.

Clear the Bilge (Active, requires shallow water to cast): Summons a swarm of rats that instantly turn Neutral Passive and have Disease Cloud. Costs no mana.

De-barnacle (Channeling, requires shallow water to cast): Ship is immobile for X seconds and loses a small amount of health. Once done, ship is buffed to maximum speed for a long time.

Plunging Fire (Active): Targets an area on the map and bombards it with the ship's guns (infinite range on coastal maps, long range on large-scale maps). Damage, knockback, and number of projectiles depends on Strength and Intelligence.

Possible Mechanics:
* Mana represents crew, and so abilities cost little to no mana, but the ship has little to no mana regeneration outside of harbors, and its speed decreases with mana.
* If the ship is away from land for too long, it gets a Scurvy debuff, slowing it and making it lose mana until it gets to a harbor that can restore it.

-


Idea for the elf's water spell:
Animate Water (Channeling): Creates a huge, floating, mobile sphere of water that can then be sacrificed by using an ability (except the last one):
* Healing Rains: Heals all surrounding allied units.
* Water Hammer: The sphere drops, causing AoE stun for all units directly below it.
* Boil: Evaporates the sphere, causing a Cloud effect (on buildings and units) at its location.
* Freeze: Freezes the sphere, dropping it to the ground and doing AoE damage.
* Expand/Shrink: Increases/decreases the sphere's size (bear form), causing its other spells to have less effect (heal/duration/damage) but greater radius.

Worgen spells: Have every ranged spell correspond to a melee version where he jumps at the target and deals the same effect (bleed, stun...)

 

[Trill]

• Venatre is one of the main two characters of the campaign, likely to be the first "point of view" hero. She is the leader of the group of survivors about whom the campaign will tell its story.

• Mechanically she is a Melee Intelligence Hero (possibly not "true melee" but possibly the short range "pseudo melee" that is represented in huntresses and spell breakers). I haven't seen a Melee Intelligence Hero implemented and would appreciate input on what kind of mechanics would be appropriate. I am thinking of spells like Mana Shield and Blink to give her survivability.

• Thematically, she is probably a part of the Sisterhood of Elune. In terms of lining up with faction theme, she would represent the Night Elf side of manipulating the Day/Night cycle.

• One of her spells will be some kind of frost or water-based Area of Effect. I know this much at least because in the mission in which she escapes Teldrassil, I want one of her own abilities to be able to clear fires in her way. What else it does, I'm not sure. If she's a support hero, then probably some kind of heal or buff. If she's an offensive hero, then probably some kind of crowd control or damage.[/hidd

Elune and water? Well, that just screams "Moonwell". So, maybe caretaker of moonwells? Have the refugees access to moonwells? Venatre could be carrying the last of the moonwell waters from the Temple of the Moon. Something like this.
After long battle against the Horde, then horrifying struggle to save as many elves as possible from the Burning, Sentinel Venatre could barely stand from her wounds and horrific burns. Feeling death approaching, she stumbled into the Temple of the Moon, wanting to see its clear light one last time. As strength left her, she collapsed into the Temple's moonwell waters. Elune, knowing the city and the temple were lost, and impressed with heroic Sentinel's tenacity, not only healed her, but infused her with the power of the moonwell, so she may continue to aid the Kaldorei.
She would fight in melee because that's what she knows, being a Sentinel, but her strength would be derived from Elune, justifying Int scaling. She could be a kind of support that thrives in the middle of battle.
Abilities could be something like this:
Moonwell Waters - summons a swirling cloud of moonwell waters (basically a ward) that heal nearby allies (aura-like) and dispel harmful effects from them.
Moon Glaive - throws a bouncing moonglade, hitting up to 3-4-5 enemies and marking them with Moonlight. Worgen (in Worgen form) attacks against marked enemies consume the mark, dealing extra damage.
Elune's Chosen - wraps Venatre in moonlight, increasing her defense by a moderate amount and causing every heal that affects her to heal her for an additional amount. This should help her survive in melee - even dropping her own first spell would make her rapidly regenerate health, and having a healer would make her basically immortal.
Sentinel Host - takes all nearby units with active Shadowmeld, grants them temporary critical strike chance and creates a mirror image of each one. Ultimate. Basically an enormous army of very shooty elves emerges out of nowhere, but only during the night.

• Gage is the other leader of the survivors. He is a Gilnean Worgen.

• Melee he is likely an Agility Hero, both Melee and Ranged. During the day, he adopts his ranged form, using either a blunderbuss or two small pistols (depending on what models I end up going with), and emphasises the use of technology. During the night, he turns into a melee worgen form and emphasises a more animalistic style.

• Due to the transformation I am not sure how to handle his hero abilities. One option is to effective store his abilities and their levels in variables. For ease of design and a bit of thematic symmetry I would like to make his Human/Worgen abilities effectively mirror images of one another. So, for instance, his "Q" abilities in each form would be virtually identical, with only enough difference to fit being melee/ranged.

Depends on how original you want to be. Heroes of the Storm did exactly that with Genn Greymane, you might take pointers from that (although a MOBA kit won't work as well in RPG).

Ship Hero

• This one is probably one of the more radical concepts. I would like the ship that the Survivors escape on to be a hero unit, as it will likely play a role in several missions. Experience would represent the experience of the crew and its First Mate.

• I have really no idea what kind of abilities i would give this hero, at the moment.

Oh, this is interesting.
First I wonder if you are aware of this pack? Not only has it got cool models, they also have spell animations for firing broadsides.

What I would suggest, is that its basic 4 abilities are not "hero", but "unit" type - i.e. not leveled.
"Hero" abilities are purely passive effects that affect the active ones. One for instance reduces cooldown of some kind of cannon shot ability, representing gunners gaining experience.

 

[GrevinGadal]

I have so much more to say

When I post, it is partly reflective of my current "stream of consciousness". My process tends to be to intake a lot of ideas and material that feel right, let them brew and see what bubbles to the top, mentally. This is my long way of saying that, if you want to throw something in the pot, go ahead, don't feel obligated to follow me down every rabbit hole.

- You are so incredibly on point re: "represent my current thinking". Good good good.
- Don't forget Hero #4
- The Goblin Tinker is a Melee Intelligence hero in the standard game, actually. He's also a great example of one; being INT usually means lacking STR (i.e. HP), but Melee means he's in the fray (i.e. needs HP). You'll notice that he's designed very carefully, in such a way as to 'enable' a Melee INT hero to function:

I admit I had actually forgotten about the Goblin Tinker. I'm not sure why given that I love the Tinker. I never really use the hero much, but he just looks so cool and really fits what has been a persistent style for the goblin race.

If you are designing to 'match' the standard melee game...

Make sure your Ultimates are ULTIMATE...

Take note of the fact that the vast majority (over 75% (can't find my charts...)) of Heroes have at least one Direct Damage (DD) ability...

It can be tempting to stick all the coolest ideas into your custom faction (especially your first)...

Finally, I hate to tell you this but one thing you'll want to steer clear of is copying other (hero) abilities... so while you may indeed want abilities like Blink or Mana Shield, for example, I would advise you not to use them specifically.

I am hoping to match the standard game. In that I do want a player to be able to jump into the campaign and see and experience that has new and fun material, while having the familiar experience of a Warcraft III Campaign. My personal favourite campaigns were the TFT Night Elf and Undead Campaigns. I love the TFT Rexxar Campaign, but that's not what I'm going for. In a sense I'm aiming for "fresh" more than "new".

I read that blog regarding ultimate abilities. Will certainly take that on board.

That's an interesting point, regarding direct damage abilities. Thinking about it, they all have a unique take but functionally work on the "click on that to hurt it" control principle. Most of them pull double duty in some way, but are not complex to use.

It is tempting to throw everything in. I have a few ideas that I love but realized that they don't really fit the theme that the faction is developing without over-complicating it. The campaign project involves traveling to a previously uncharted land, so if the project eventually calls for other factions, I have plenty of ideas in reserve to draw upon.

I do want something with the utility of Blink, but ideally I'd like it to be different somehow, whether that's a limitation of some kind, added punch. I'm not sure. I primarily like Blink because it opens up certain options in map and encounter creation that are harder to do without it. This is partly inspired by the fact that I really love playing through the TFT Night Elf Campaign, partly because of the exploration and flexibility I feel I gain simply from Maiev's ability to blink. I like the "Blink Strike" ability.

Remind me the different races in this faction? If so, are you (probably reasonably) going for 2 of each?

Also, while the Proper/Campaign Name is nice, what really matters for the design is the "Hero Name" or "Class Name"...

What's her Role/Function/Gameplay/Mechanical Identity? Does she support, does she tank, does she nuke, does she heal?

Otherwise, I guess water fits slightly more than frost because the moon & tides, etc.
- - Depending on how supportive she's supposed to be, I could see a passive 'attack-enhancer' that buffs/heals nearby friendly units for every attack she makes on an enemy (like "Valor" or somesuch). That's also survival-oriented.
- - Perhaps rather than straight-up Blink, you could use a simple Blink-Strike (mobility/survival, but also offensive uses)
- - Similarly, instead of Mana Shield, perhaps a souped up Elune's Grace (protection from Piercing & Spells) or Defend (same but toggled).
- - - Do you have a model in mind?

The races are Night Elf and Worgen. Since they make up the bulk of the Darnassian population at the time of Teldrassil's burning. I also like that they have thematically shared elements of both a) sensitivity to day/night cycles (I'm actually not sure if this is really a thing for Worgen, but it is for standard fantasy werewolves), and b) shape shifting.

At the moment, I'm going for one hero of each race. Since this is a campaign project, the process of hero design is, at least partly, subordinated to the demands of the campaign (which, admittedly makes it difficult to help without more information about the campaign). I know I need a Night Elf Hero and a Worgen Hero. I'm drawing on inspiration from classic myths like the Aeneid, Odyssey, and Argonautica for the story structure, so the ship they travel on is an important element, and will be present enough in gameplay that I liked the idea of it being its own hero.

The working name for Venatre's "Class" is Conservator, at the moment, currently using this model (the Naisha variant). The Conservator is, at this stage, envisaged as a support spell caster.

For Gage, his "Class" is currently called Pack Lord, likely with an emphasis on being a more individual, damage-emphasized hero, using this model. That said, I could also see the Hero as placing an emphasis on surrounding units in some abilities. For example, I had an idea for one ability that would be a direct damage ability that deals additional damage for each other Worgen unit nearby. Thematically it would be a kind of "going in for the kill" and draw on the idea of wolves as pack hunters.

 

[Ether]

I don't think Night Elves and Worgens could work together for reasons that Worgens tend to like isolated territories and Night Elves to be more open and likes to stick with nature rather then building closed cities. And their architectural structures might not blend in as well since the NE has more of... organic and less stone/wood as the Wolfguys has.

But I like the idea that panther cats and werewolfs might work together in some strange reason but banding together in a same civilization or territory might be a clashy result.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Ideas for ship Hero spells (for a galleon-type ship)

I love this stuff. In implementing the passive benefits of different kinds of crew members, I wonder if items would be an appropriate way to do that? I imagine that shops could be created that include some flag in its shop ability to only sell to ships. Perhaps it would be a kind of seaside tavern where crew can be recruited, since the ship is being manned, at first, by a small band of desperate survivors, rather than seasoned sailors.

In fact, I sort of like the idea of a hero that de-emphasizes the traditional structure of hero abilities.

The ship in question is capable of combat, but not, thematically-speaking, at least, in the same class as a Battleship. I'm probably going to give it some kind of stealth ability that functions as night. This is, ironically, not to do with the Night Elf/Worgen theme, so much as that, in a particular mission that I have planned. It's a kind of stealth mission, in which the players' ship, (currently called the Remembrance) has been tracked but is looking escape from its pursuers at night by dousing its lights and trying to slip into a fog bank.

Idea for the elf's water spell:
Animate Water (Channeling): Creates a huge, floating, mobile sphere of water that can then be sacrificed by using an ability (except the last one):
* Healing Rains: Heals all surrounding allied units.
* Water Hammer: The sphere drops, causing AoE stun for all units directly below it.
* Boil: Evaporates the sphere, causing a Cloud effect (on buildings and units) at its location.
* Freeze: Freezes the sphere, dropping it to the ground and doing AoE damage.
* Expand/Shrink: Increases/decreases the sphere's size (bear form), causing its other spells to have less effect (heal/duration/damage) but greater radius.

Worgen spells: Have every ranged spell correspond to a melee version where he jumps at the target and deals the same effect (bleed, stun...)

This has given me a lot of material to play around with, thank you.

 

[GrevinGadal]

I don't think Night Elves and Worgens could work together for reasons that Worgens tend to like isolated territories and Night Elves to be more open and likes to stick with nature rather then building closed cities. And their architectural structures might not blend in as well since the NE has more of... organic and less stone/wood as the Wolfguys has.

But I like the idea that panther cats and werewolfs might work together in some strange reason but banding together in a same civilization or territory might be a clashy result.

The campaign does play out a desperate situation. This is right after the Burning of Teldrassil, depicted in the pre-launch events for Battle of Azeroth. Teldrassil's population is primarily Night Elf, of course, but it also has a significant Worgen population, as the Night Elves helped the Worgen gain control over their curse and advocated for their inclusion into the Grand Alliance.

The first mission depicts the actual escape from Teldrassil as it burns. The main character, a Night Elf, teams up with a pack of Worgen, to climb down the tree and reach a ship in order to escape the fire.

So it is, very much, an alliance of necessity. The faction will use Gilnean (human architecture) primarily due to the loss of the Night Elves' Ancients and the fact that they do not have access to normal wisps. Wisps will make an appearance, but not in their docile, worker role that they held in Warcraft III.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Elune and water? Well, that just screams "Moonwell". So, maybe caretaker of moonwells? Have the refugees access to moonwells? Venatre could be carrying the last of the moonwell waters from the Temple of the Moon. Something like this.

Nice. I'm thinking of having Venatre acquire this ability in the first mission, probably by being confronted by the flames cutting off the path and desperately heading for one of the last surviving moonwells to get something to quench the fire. The ability would then be granted by Elune as a mercy to her people in their hour of need.

The survivors do not have access to moonwells, at least as part of their tech tree. I am operating on the assumption that the Night Elf civilization was heavily centralized in Teldrassil and so much of their power was bound up in that territory, along with most of the remaining ancients.

Moonwell Waters - summons a swirling cloud of moonwell waters (basically a ward) that heal nearby allies (aura-like) and dispel harmful effects from them.

I like the idea that this spell might have been granted by Elune in the first mission, as described in events above. Perhaps it is a channeled spell that depicts a prayer to Elune. It has the function that it dispels magic effects, damages summoned units, and perhaps heals friendly units within once it completes.

Moon Glaive - throws a bouncing moonglade, hitting up to 3-4-5 enemies and marking them with Moonlight. Worgen (in Worgen form) attacks against marked enemies consume the mark, dealing extra damage.

Actually, I like this idea for either the Night Elf or Worgen Hero, specifically the marking ability. Perhaps an Area-of-Effect that places a mark on a certain number of enemy units within range (number of marks increases with spell level) and if that unit is attacked it takes extra damage, consuming the mark, perhaps suffering a bleeding effect?

As a Night Elf ability I think it would represent a kind of military command. As a Worgen ability it would represent the Pack Leader coordinating his pack and driving them in for the kill.

Depends on how original you want to be. Heroes of the Storm did exactly that with Genn Greymane, you might take pointers from that (although a MOBA kit won't work as well in RPG).

Oh okay, I don't really pay much attention to Heroes of the Storm, I might take a look and see if it provides some inspiration.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Ship items: The Battleships AoS does that, using items for crew, weapons and general-use gear. It's where I got the crew-mana idea.

Sneaky ship you say...

Fog Generator (Active, drains mana): While active, gives the ship 45% Evasion and covers it in fog.

Fog Launchers (Active): Targets an area. All units in the AoE have reduced accuracy.

Elune's Veil (Passive): Ship is invisible at night.
* Alternately: Ship gets 10% Evasion at 18:00, 15% at 20:00, 20% at 22:00, is invisible even when attacking from 22:00 to 2:00, and evasion re-decreases every two hours after 2:00 until daybreak.

Windseeker Sails (Active): Ship temporarily gains maximum speed.

Dive (Active): Covers the ship in a mana bubble and submerges it, allowing it to move (but not attack and disables some abilities) underwater undetected. Or even makes it invulnerable, to avoid people shooting at water.

Teldrassil's Vengeance (Active): Sends a swarm of hellburners towards enemy ships.

 

[GrevinGadal]

I've thrown this together, when I toying with Photoshop. I thought I'd share it as a thanks to everyone's help so far. It's not finished, but is also easily updated.

I'll probably put further updates in this post and link back to it.

Survivors of Teldrassil Techtree

Buildings

Lodge/Hamlet/Manor: 3-Tiered Town Hall Structure
Outpost: Standard Unit Production

Trains the Ranger, Predator, and Effigy​

Shelter: Food Production and Lumber Collection Point
Altar of Memories: Hero Revival

Can cast "Wrath of Nature" to turn a group of trees into "Burning Treants"​

Trading Post: Player-owned Shop
Arsenal: Upgrades

Lunar Observatory: Caster Unit Production (also has its own spell "Eclipse" that causes a 15-Second Night)
Garrison: Advanced Unit Production​

Ranger (Trained at the Outpost)

• Ranged combat unit that can attack ground and air targets.
• Can Shadowmeld
• Can individually purchase upgrades that give it one of two kinds of autocast arrow abilities:

Flaming Arrows: Applies a buff to the target. If the target dies while under the effects of this buff, then it leaves behind a small, temporary patch of burning ground that damages units that walk over it.

Witching Arrows: Applies a buff to the target. If the target casts a spell or is the target of a beneficial spell, it takes additional damage.

The Rangers' arrow abilities are cooldown based and do not fire on every shot.​

The Predator has a feature I'm not sure of how practical it will be to implement, due to the limitations on stacking buffs and targeting classifications.

Predator (Trained at the Outpost)

• Melee or short range combat unit that can attack ground targets.
• Gilnean Unit (Transforms into Worgen at Night)
• When in Human Form, the Predator has a weak, short-range aura that only affects other Predators called "Safety In Numbers", which boosts their armor.
• When in Worgen Form, the Predator has a weak, short-range aura that only affects other Predators called "Pack Hunter", which boosts their attack speed.

The Predator doesn't yet have personal upgrades​

Effigy (Trained at the Outpost; Requires Altar of Memories)

• Basic Caster Unit
• Weak ranged attack that can target ground and air targets.
• Has the following spells:

Entangle Building: Entangles a building that the player owns in roots. This grants the building a ranged attack that provides defense from enemy units. Using this ability consumes the Effigy.

Memory of Fire: (Requires Tier-1 Caster Research) Possesses a tree, turning it into a Burning Treant under the player's control. Using this ability consumes the Effigy.

Ancestral Barrier: (Requires Tier-2 Caster Research) Roots the Effigy in place. While in this state, the Effigy generates an area of effect that increases the attack speed of friendly units and lowers the movement speed of enemy units.
​

Burning Treant (Summoned by Effigies or the Altar of Memories)

• Melee combat unit that can attack ground targets.
• Summoned but does not have a "Countdown" Timer.
• Burning Treants have an Immolation ability that damages nearby enemy units, and does less damage to itself (this is how Burning Treants "countdown")

 

[Kyrbi0]

I've thrown this together, when I toying with Photoshop. I thought I'd share it as a thanks to everyone's help so far. It's not finished, but is also easily updated.

I'll probably put further updates in this post and link back to it.

Survivors of Teldrassil Techtree

The Predator has a feature I'm not sure of how practical it will be to implement, due to the limitations on stacking buffs and targeting classifications.

...
Marry me.

 

[GrevinGadal]

While I was working today I had an idea, but I'm not sure 100% sure how to polish it.

Advanced Unit: Avenger

Avenger

Model: Avatar of Vengeance (Scaled Down)

• Summoned when another unit dies.
• Gives constant line of sight of the unit that killed it.
• Gains a significant damage bonus when it is near the unit that killed it.
• Vanishes once it has killed its own killer.

I also was giving some thought to a possible new spin on Blink.

Hero Spell: Slipstream

Slipstream

When a hero uses slipstream, it functions precisely like Blink at first. Once the spell is complete, however, it leaves a one-way portal that goes from the exit point to the destination, which vanishes after a period of time. This allows other units to follow the Hero through the Slipstream.

This could either be some mechanical variant of a way gate, or perhaps a pair of units that load in units as cargo at the entry point, then transfer the cargo by trigger and spits them out.
​

 

[cleavinghammer]

Predator upgrades:
* Rabid: Deals increased damage as HP drops (-10% HP +10% damage), if HP drops below a certain threshold (10% in the day, 20% at night) the Predator becomes feral (Neutral Hostile).
* Bloodthirst: Gains Frenzy and reduced damage.
* Lone Wolf: Has Cleaving Attack and reduced damage.

Vengeance: The damage bonus should only apply when attacking the killer.

Slipstream: Sounds interesting, but I feel the main use of Blink in a campaign is the ability to create a lot of exploration possibilities (puzzles, easter eggs and one-hero challenges), hence the short cooldown and low manacost.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Slipstream: Sounds interesting, but I feel the main use of Blink in a campaign is the ability to create a lot of exploration possibilities (puzzles, easter eggs and one-hero challenges), hence the short cooldown and low manacost.

I did have a specific mission in mind when I thought of it. Perhaps it would be more suitable to go for some kind of Blink Strike, and simply introduce mission-specific mechanics for units to come in after the Hero. Such as the Hero clearing the gap with Blink, then having to knock down a tree bridge, activate a portal, destroy an obstacle etc.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Maybe have every mission have different ways to carry out objectives and have it affect the heroes, like a permanent sidequest.

Say the Worgen hero is continuously falling deeper into his animalistic nature, and doing missions the brute-force way gives him stat boosts. The Night Elf hero is more aware of their precarious situation, so doing things the sneaky way gets her stat boosts. Possibly affecting the ending as well.

For example, one mission involves lowering a drawbridge, either by attacking the bridge's tower so the bridge falls (Worgen) or by teleporting units up a nearby cliff to infiltrate the bridge tower and lower the bridge manually (Night Elf).

 

[Trill]

While I was working today I had an idea, but I'm not sure 100% sure how to polish it.

Avenger

Model: Avatar of Vengeance (Scaled Down)

• Summoned when another unit dies.
• Gives constant line of sight of the unit that killed it.
• Gains a significant damage bonus when it is near the unit that killed it.
• Vanishes once it has killed its own killer.

Keep in mind you'll HAVE TO include an easter egg of Sylvanas being chased by a swarm of Avengers in some unreachable corner of one of the map.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Maybe have every mission have different ways to carry out objectives and have it affect the heroes, like a permanent sidequest.

Say the Worgen hero is continuously falling deeper into his animalistic nature, and doing missions the brute-force way gives him stat boosts. The Night Elf hero is more aware of their precarious situation, so doing things the sneaky way gets her stat boosts. Possibly affecting the ending as well.

For example, one mission involves lowering a drawbridge, so either attacking the bridge's tower so the bridge falls (Worgen) or teleporting units up a nearby cliff to infiltrate the bridge tower and lower the bridge manually (Night Elf).

Actually it's funny that you suggest that, because I've been doing a bit of reading on how to use Cache data between maps, and I would like to do something akin to this. I have a goal of at least two optional objectives, or alternative ways to defeat obstacles to the main objective, each mission. I would, ideally, like to include their consequences in more ways than just the rewards that they grant.

One way, of course, is that earlier events may simply cause adjustments in future missions, but it would be interesting to have a kind of parallel progression.

I think I recall that Dawn of War II did something like this in its expansion. I haven't actually played it, but I read that it kept track of the player character's exposure to chaos and their slow and steady corruption throughout the campaign.

Keep in mind you'll HAVE TO include an easter egg of Sylvanas being chased by a swarm of Avengers in some unreachable corner of one of the map.

I read that with the Benny Hill Theme running through my head, and smiled.

 

[cleavinghammer]

DoW 2 does indeed do that, also changing which abilities they have and the equipment they can use (along with which character does... Bad Things, and eventually the ending). Changing the abilities might be a bit too complicated though.

Consequences:
Brute Force: Enemies start fearing you, so later missions have more enemies to fight.
Sneakiness: Enemies can't figure out how they keep getting blindsided, so they put more guards on the side paths.

 

[GrevinGadal]

DoW 2 does indeed do that, also changing which abilities they have and the equipment they can use (along with which character does... Bad Things, and eventually the ending). Changing the abilities might be a bit too complicated though.

It could be. I have to reign myself in, sometimes, ambition is an easy thing to let run away when brainstorming.

I agree that the Avengers' damage bonus should probably be limited to only the unit that killed originally.

What do people think about the idea of the Avenger being this faction's "Ultimate" unit. It wouldn't be trained individually. Rather, the player would have an ultimate building, limited to only 1, that has a passive ability. Whenever one of your units (other than an Avenger) dies, it creates an avenger if its ability is off cooldown.

The problems that I can see would be how to prevent this from being a way of circumventing the food cap and producing infinite units (probably easiest fix would be to give the Avengers' their own food cost and the ability will only trigger if there is food cap available).

Another alternative I thought of:

• Avenger is a summoned ultimate unit at either a dedicated ultimate building or the Altar of Memories. The building starts with 0 mana and only gains mana when your own units die (gaining more mana for more powerful units) until it finally has enough to summon the Avenger. Once summoning of the Avenger is available in the techtree all your units gain a passive ability that gives an enemy that kills them a buff, which grants the Avenger a bonus to damage when attacking it.
• The Avenger has a mana bar as well, which depletes each time it kills such a unit, until its mana runs out and it despawns.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Give the Avengers a short time limit and spawn for every dead Night Elf, and when created automatically target their killer. So the player can either let them avenge themselves (so leave them alone), or use them as regular units (minus the damage boost), but not as infinite death swarms.

 

[Trill]

What if Avengers had a food cost, spawned infinitely, but all Avengers beyond food cap automatically became Neutral Hostile?

 

[Lordlycan]

So my overall post got a bit bigger than i expected so i did a little bit of formatting to make it easier to read. But in order to combine two races into a new race it's vital to look at what makes them similar and what sets them apart.

I'm not a big fan of your big avenger type of unit personally since it really will screw up your balance and it feels counter-intuitive to be forced to lose units to get access to a big guy. especially if the entire race isn't based on some demonic warlock type of narrative. But all the rest gave great ideas to play around with and build upon.

Race Identity: The brothers grimm meet norse mythology
Gilnean is basically The brother Grim fairytales in 19th century British Islands. While Nightelves are taken norse mythology.

Race Identity: Shadowmeld+Night's curse still works like a Roguelike.
Campaign night-elves played a lot like a rogue-like with the shadow-meld being a huge part of their race identity. Where as the worgen have their night-curse. So perhaps give the worgen melee units a pounce skill and the night-elves having their type of invisibility in the night. You can have them show up in semi-large numbers out of nowhere. (which really sells your chosen identity as a ragtag band that tries to survive after Armageddon has basically visited their homeland.) This as a racial Identity works very well together. And allows you to do some nice hit and run type of strategies. And the slipstream blink that i just read about earlier is insanely fun but might give a lot of issues.

Race Identity: Ragtag Band of internal strife between Cats and Dogs
But being thrown together in order to survive with a different subculture tends to create it's own tension and strife inside the Group. So the new hierarchy can be a lot of fun. So you have ample of narrative to play around with. So a strong leader can unite them. But removing that leader (if only temporarily) you get to play around with a thing a called cats and dogs. And we all know how well that plays together. So in terms of narrative you have a lot going for you.

You could explore certain plants that are effectively like catnip or water and cats fear of getting wet, and a Elek/Centaur/dragon graveyard full with bones which force your player to use his catlike nightelves on the graveyard in order not to desecrate the graves by eating the bones. And the Worgen to not get your cats high on catnip.

Race Identity: Semi-Naval Race
You could even consider to make a more naval race that does most of it's training on the sea. And you could perhaps play around with a Ship as a main building with more active skills instead of it taking up a heroslot. Wood and gold has to be harvested on the shore but fish can be granted from fishing in the sea as well. This kinda would work with your narrative as well. Since Your night-elves used to have their ancient being able to move around. But your Gilneans couldn't but Gilneans could be great shipwrights and builders. But having lost access to most ancients You could op for a nice middle ground with a ship orientated race.(which is also considerably original not sure how blizzard's kul tiras would do it however) Even the regular night elves couldn't move their hunter halls or moonwells so it's okay if some building still have to be placed on the land. And thus forces the player to still become somewhat landlocked. You could even chose to make a race skill scorching wounds that start immolating your own units if they are to far away from your ships.

Race identity: Racing
Racing could also become a big a part of your race identity. Both Worgen, Panthers and Ships (perhaps even a flying unit) all play around with being able to do obstacle runs if you do this in shallow waters you could even have all three compete with eachother. and play around with their custom skills, turns rates/movementspeed/Acceleration/max movementspeeds/passable impassable terrain. (ships can sail on land masses(even small), but ground units can't sail across deep ocean water. while air can go across all(just force "checkpoints basically how actually sailing challenges work as well). It could work well as a festival but also as a way to do some dickmeasuring contests for leadership narratively.

Race Identity: Burning of teldrassil
The desire to play around with more firebased magic and it's results can be done through skillsets, but perhaps when exceeding upkeep either buildings or units might start to burn. Druids of the flame and Fire cat form and Fire hawk form. Considering Fandral staghelm tried to stage a coup due to malfurion's passive stance against the Horde which effectively resulted in the burning of Telldrassil. These fanatics have a lot more worth to their words. Isolationism from nightelves and the past of the gilnean walling themselves off and being left to their demise. Kinda allows you to play with going full circle in the narrative as well.

Overall character and skill Synergy.
Immolation works well with slows and disables So getting a "poison slow arrow" on your archers would work well.

Eating trees, setting things on fire (for both distraction while raiding as clearing blocked paths)

Ensnare As well against ranged units as pulling lever and harvesting shallow waters for fish. But ensnare and flamestrike abilities work as well. Ensnaring opponents then getting out of sight works great in hit and run tactics as well.

another thing which might be fun is looting shipwrecks for gold

Also it would ridiculously funny to have a new druidform of the seal/walrus which can swim but for a limited amount of time. (also another unit which could partake in racing events) But it could work with a more naval orientated race.

Sprouting trees as a skill would work both as a disable but also as a resource generation

 

[GrevinGadal]

I'm not a big fan of your big avenger type of unit personally since it really will screw up your balance and it feels counter-intuitive to be forced to lose units to get access to a big guy. especially if the entire race isn't based on some demonic warlock type of narrative. But all the rest gave great ideas to play around with and build upon.

Welcome to the discussion. I can see what you are saying. It doesn't feel to me to be quite gelling at this point. I like the unit concept, I'm not sure, now that I've kicked it around, that it fits the Survivors Faction as part of its tech tree.

Race Identity: The brothers grimm meet norse mythology
Gilnean is basically The brother Grim fairytales in 19th century British Islands. While Nightelves are taken norse mythology.

Race Identity: Shadowmeld+Night's curse still works like a Roguelike.
Campaign night-elves played a lot like a rogue-like with the shadow-meld being a huge part of their race identity. Where as the worgen have their night-curse. So perhaps give the worgen melee units a pounce skill and the night-elves having their type of invisibility in the night. You can have them show up in semi-large numbers out of nowhere. (which really sells your chosen identity as a ragtag band that tries to survive after Armageddon has basically visited their homeland.) This as a racial Identity works very well together. And allows you to do some nice hit and run type of strategies. And the slipstream blink that i just read about earlier is insanely fun but might give a lot of issues.

The synergy between the Worgen and the Night Elves, in that both are thematically tied to the night, was one of the things that really got me energized about this concept.

Race Identity: Ragtag Band of internal strife between Cats and Dogs
But being thrown together in order to survive with a different subculture tends to create it's own tension and strife inside the Group. So the new hierarchy can be a lot of fun. So you have ample of narrative to play around with. So a strong leader can unite them. But removing that leader (if only temporarily) you get to play around with a thing a called cats and dogs. And we all know how well that plays together. So in terms of narrative you have a lot going for you.

I like stories that play on the tensions inside organizations and societies. They make settings and the characters within them feel more real and grounded. In this campaign (which I haven't named yet), the Worgen and the Night Elves are certainly brought together first and foremost, by desperation. The two societies do have some other bonds, as members of the Grand Alliance and the Night Elves' help to control the Worgen curse, but desperate times can test even those bonds.

I don't conflict erupting violently between the two factions, but I definitely see tension, as different leaders have different ideas of the best course of action, with few resources and a frightened following.

Race Identity: Semi-Naval Race
You could even consider to make a more naval race that does most of it's training on the sea. And you could perhaps play around with a Ship as a main building with more active skills instead of it taking up a heroslot. Wood and gold has to be harvested on the shore but fish can be granted from fishing in the sea as well. This kinda would work with your narrative as well. Since Your night-elves used to have their ancient being able to move around. But your Gilneans couldn't but Gilneans could be great shipwrights and builders. But having lost access to most ancients You could op for a nice middle ground with a ship orientated race.(which is also considerably original not sure how blizzard's kul tiras would do it however) Even the regular night elves couldn't move their hunter halls or moonwells so it's okay if some building still have to be placed on the land. And thus forces the player to still become somewhat landlocked. You could even chose to make a race skill scorching wounds that start immolating your own units if they are to far away from your ships.

I likely won't be going this far as far as developing the Survivors' naval capabilities. I do intend to try to create some new ships, as one mission I have planned, at least, will involve a major naval engagement between the Horde and Alliance fleets. I want to give that mission some extra options. Gnomish Submarines, for instance, utility and ability-based ships etc.

 

[Trill]

Avenger could me an universal enchantment that you can put onto any unit.
It would be basically a nasty surprise for the enemy that you'd keep up your sleeve.
Oh, you're attacking my army with slightly larger force? BAM! Now this one rises from the dead as an angry ghost thing! And this one! And this one!

 

[cleavinghammer]

Maybe the Avenger is standard (spawns with every dead Night Elf unit), but they only really power up with the ultimate building, giving them the extra damage + auto lock-onto killer, last longer, restore allied HP once they avenge themselves, etc.


Idea for a Slipstream puzzle: A feral worgen, a dryad and a treant are on one side of a gap and need to be moved to the other side (early in the campaign so only one unit can be transferred at a time). If the worgen is left with the dryad, he eats her, if the dryad is left alone with the treant, she turns him back into a tree. The player needs to find a way to get all three across.

 

[GrevinGadal]

Just thought I'd share something funny. I've been creating the abilities for the ranger in the editor. The ability worked perfectly, except that, when the target unit died, a wisp suddenly appeared from its corpse.

The joys of leaving things accidentally hooked up in the data editor.