[General] Best way to handle 100 spells for single unit?

[-Kobas-]

Ok guys, I would like to know, what is the best way to work with more than 10 spells for single unit.

Should I use linked spellbooks.
Some custom interface system.
Dialog buttons.
Items ?
etc etc

Please examples, test maps, links, videos, pictures anything...

 

[Xonok]

Ok guys, I would like to know, what is the best way to work with more than 10 spells for single unit.

Should I use linked spellbooks.
Some custom interface system.
Dialog buttons.
Items ?
etc etc

Please examples, test maps, links, videos, pictures anything...

1. Spellbooks and spellbook trees. +121 spells for a single depth 2 spellbook
2. Items(maybe with spellbooks) + 6 spells or 66 with depth 1 spellbook

What I mean by depth is how many spellbooks there are. depth one is just one spellbook full of abilities. Depth 2 is one spellbook that is full of spellbooks that are full of abilities.

I think that items full of spellbooks is the best option, as item abilities don't mess with other items.

Now if the spells don't require to be cast in combat, then you can use dialogs and chat commands.

Movement patterns? Would be awesome, but probably hard.

 

[deathismyfriend]

You could also use a a from ability to store abilities into. Ex: power towers td used a crow form to show new abilities for the unit.

Another options is just make it by triggers. Player types message ability list one. Then add the abilities to the unit tht u want in list one and so on.

 

[-Kobas-]

What about multiboard?
Each ability can be displayed with icon and name, and then with arrow keys you scroll over them, description can be shown on multiboard or screen?

 

[deathismyfriend]

If u have to scroll up or down over 100 abilities tht would take forever. Also the mb wouldn't be a very efficient way compared to the others listed

 

[muzzel]

Wow you really gotta tell us what kind of map you are working on. How spells can be managed depends on how the gameplay looks like, if you have a fast pvp game (like an AoS) then you cant scroll down for 5 seconds to find the right spell.

If you dont need the inventory then using items as abilities is a nice solution, but only adds 6 slots.
If you can group the spells in different classes, for example "frequently used mainspells", "rarely used utilityspells" and "passives" then you could make several spellbooks, one for each class. So the important spells are in one spellbook and one doesnt have to switch spellbooks to access them.

 

[gorillabull]

why not put them in struct as members or methods the struct can be an array to match the unit

 

[Zwiebelchen]

why not put them in struct as members or methods the struct can be an array to match the unit

Wtf dude, that wasn't even the question, lol

@-Kobas-:
Hmm, I agree on Muzzel here, you should tell us for what exactly you need this.
- If it's PVP based, I recommend not using anything that requires leaving the command card of the hero, like spellbooks. PVP based maps should have all the skills on the main command card, which limits you to 6
- If it's RPG style, use a spellbook for 11 possible spells. I really recommend not using multiple spellbooks, because swapping is stupid and ruins the fun. Also, with too many spells the hotkeys will clash
- It it's turn based, you can use multiboards, but make sure to build a spell 2D-table, which allows to use both up and down and left and right arrow keys to select the spell for faster access. However, this sucks in multi, as arrow keys have a huge delay there
- If your map is singleplayer, you can use DGUI to create spell buttons directly on the screen and get rid of the standard WC3 UI and use keyboard events to access the spells

However, imho, having more than 11 active abilities on your hero at the same time is a sign of bad game design. Players should be limited in their choices to allow diversity and planning ahead.
Even popular MMORPGs (let's call the example a 'B'-brand game) only have like 30 spells per hero, were only like 15 of them are frequently used.
I'd go as far to say that more than 30 spells per hero are not manageable for the average human player.

 

[-Kobas-]

Honestly you won't be able to use all of them, only maybe around 20.
But I need good way how to display them, present them and so on...

It's for SotP
I use talent tree like system so you can choose combination of 4 spells you want to use, and you unlock new spells spending shadow essence. You can anytime remove change combination of spells.

But people find this confusing, it can crush game if you have hit points bar turned on...

 

[gorillabull]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...-0-0-a-193521/?prev=search=libram&d=list&r=20

have you tried this

 

[muzzel]

Honestly you won't be able to use all of them, only maybe around 20.
But I need good way how to display them, present them and so on...

It's for SotP
I use talent tree like system so you can choose combination of 4 spells you want to use, and you unlock new spells spending shadow essence. You can anytime remove change combination of spells.

But people find this confusing, it can crush game if you have hit points bar turned on...

Sounds like you are unsure about the game design, you should put that straight before you think about the usability aspects.

 

[shadowvzs]

Ok guys, I would like to know, what is the best way to work with more than 10 spells for single unit.

Should I use linked spellbooks.
Some custom interface system.
Dialog buttons.
Items ?
etc etc

Please examples, test maps, links, videos, pictures anything...

- i dont recommanded spellbook because if u use any dd's then all reset the spellbook opening
- custom interface if u mean to dgui then not sure if work exclude if u put there no target spell
whatever here have a ideea for unit target/point target spells, if u click to spell/so to dgui icon then add a point/unit target hidden ability to unit and use forcekey (or what is it) with the dummy unit/point target ability hotkey
- Libram system 3.0.0.0 kinda system i guess a good solution if each player got only 1 hero with that much ability

 

[SeriousEnemy]

Some ideas sound great here, but I've got another one.
Not sure if it will be great, but it might help you.

Make a small window and add it on top of the unit control area.

Please excuse this amazing picture, I didn't wanted to spend more than 10 seconds on it..


Add some icons for different spells.
You can either choose where the abilitys should be listed, or you can make the player choose it by own.

Clicking on one of the icons (maybe make them clickable with hotkeys either) will change your spells.

Pro:
Good sorting
New
If well made, could look amazing
Can be turned on and off by the user
Enough space to improve the idea

Con:
Takes time to create
Maybe confusing for new players
If bad made, will look like shit
Might lag (not sure if it's fast enough for multiplayer - delay)

Hope I could help

 

[-Kobas-]

Libram is "just another spellbook"...

Sounds like you are unsure about the game design, you should put that straight before you think about the usability aspects.

I already changed this many times, constantly trying something different and I hope better.

Hmm, what you think about custom interface that will look like Custom Inventory.
But instead items there are abilities, you can move them to 4 slots, and hero will got abilities with QWER hootkeys depending where we added ability.

Ofc there will be only unique abilities, you won't be able to have 2 same abilities like you have 2 same swords.

@SeriousEnemy I know about DGUI, but I can't use it in my map.

EDIT:

Here you go 3 images attached below:
First one is my custom inventory system, that show backpack, pet 4 slots, and hero slots.
2nd one show current talent tree system for abilities, you click on ability and then trough dialog buttons you do stuff.

3rd one show my latest idea.
There are few ways how to manage this.
- Abilities in backpack, or call it whatever could be placed in strict order (or user can split them the way he want, for example move healing ones to the right/left and so on.)
- Unlocked abilities could be ignored (empty space, or shown as DISBTN icons, example on image)
- Used abilities can also be ignored (empty space, or shown as DISBTN icons, example on image)

so what you think, at the end I just create 4 abilities instead of 1 with Q W E R hotkeys, and when you move ability to slot 1, hero get ability on X:0 Y:2, with Q hotkey...

 

[shadowvzs]

Libram is "just another spellbook"...



I already changed this many times, constantly trying something different and I hope better.

Hmm, what you think about custom interface that will look like Custom Inventory.
But instead items there are abilities, you can move them to 4 slots, and hero will got abilities with QWER hootkeys depending where we added ability.

Ofc there will be only unique abilities, you won't be able to have 2 same abilities like you have 2 same swords.

@SeriousEnemy I know about DGUI, but I can't use it in my map.

libram arent spellbook, just add all ability to unit, add 2 direction ability (up/down) and allways enable 4 ability and disable previous 4 enabled ability.

custom window for ability i guess more annoying than libram, coz if u need fast some spell during battle its could be annoying

 

[muzzel]

Hm i just had another idea:

- Create one or more dummyheroes for the player with the same stats/icon as the real hero.
- Give the first 6 spells to the real hero, the next 6 spells to the first dummy, the next 6 spells to the second dummy, etc.
- Using triggers synchronize the hero with the dummies, which means: forward all movementorders recieved by the dummies to the real hero and apply all changes in hp, mana, etc. from the real hero to the dummies.

Then you can swap spells by pressing F1, F2, F3, ... and still control the hero even if a dummy is selected.
In Gaias Retaliation thats exactly how the bag system works, the bag imitates the hero and forwards all orders recieved to the hero.

As an alternative you could always have the hero selected (then you dont need to forward orders) and use selection events to react on F1, F2, .... When a selection event fires you select the hero again, remove his spells and add the new spells of the respective dummy.

 

[-Kobas-]

Hm i just had another idea:

- Create one or more dummyheroes for the player with the same stats/icon as the real hero.
- Give the first 6 spells to the real hero, the next 6 spells to the first dummy, the next 6 spells to the second dummy, etc.
- Using triggers synchronize the hero with the dummies, which means: forward all movementorders recieved by the dummies to the real hero and apply all changes in hp, mana, etc. from the real hero to the dummies.

Then you can swap spells by pressing F1, F2, F3, ... and still control the hero even if a dummy is selected.
In Gaias Retaliation thats exactly how the bag system works, the bag imitates the hero and forwards all orders recieved to the hero.

As an alternative you could always have the hero selected (then you dont need to forward orders) and use selection events to react on F1, F2, .... When a selection event fires you select the hero again, remove his spells and add the new spells of the respective dummy.

Yeah I know that
But I use F1 for hero, F2 for Custom Inventory, F3 for hero attributes/stats, F4 for abilities...

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/2299660-post14.html

Check this

 

[shadowvzs]

so what you think, at the end I just create 4 abilities instead of 1 with Q W E R hotkeys, and when you move ability to slot 1, hero get ability on X:0 Y:2, with Q hotkey...

its mean u must create 400 ability only coz of hotkeys? anyway still better if u use fixed hotkey/place for each and assign to ability raw code

 

[Dr Super Good]

You will probably end up with a lot of pointless and redundant abilities. I advise streamlining by removing most of them. 20 abilites should be more than enough for any WC3 hero.

 

[shadowvzs]

You will probably end up with a lot of pointless and redundant abilities. I advise streamlining by removing most of them. 20 abilites should be more than enough for any WC3 hero.

if he categorize abilities to 3 part: active, passive, buff

so only active needed to put there, passive dont eneded to place anywhere and buff is fine in spellbook

 

[-Kobas-]

if he categorize abilities to 3 part: active, passive, buff

so only active needed to put there, passive dont eneded to place anywhere and buff is fine in spellbook

Something like that, yes

Passive and buff will remain in that interface, you will be able to move them within interface if you wish but you won't be able to drag them below.

And active abilities will be x4 because of hotkeys

Already started working on this, so far just clicking left to be done for first example.

 

[muzzel]

You will probably end up with a lot of pointless and redundant abilities. I advise streamlining by removing most of them. 20 abilites should be more than enough for any WC3 hero.

You cant generalize that. For a singleplayer RPG having more than 20 spells perfectly makes sense.

 

[-Kobas-]

Here it is, working like a charm. ))

System will handle abilities just like it handle any other item class.
You can move add/remove them easily, you can swap them, you can drop them, sell them and so on.

I'm working on item models for abilities right now, probably it will be looking like some kind of glowing orbs or scrolls.

Oh, as you can see spell on 3rd place as result gave ability on 3rd location with E hotkey

Only problem right now (or not) is that if you have like 4 same spells you can equip all them at once, so you can have like 4 heals and heal one after another reducing cooldown by 75% if you know what I mean

1 last thing...
How to handle PASSIVE abilities???
Should they just act like charms in diablo?

 

[shadowvzs]

Here it is, working like a charm. ))

System will handle abilities just like it handle any other item class.
You can move add/remove them easily, you can swap them, you can drop them, sell them and so on.

I'm working on item models for abilities right now, probably it will be looking like some kind of glowing orbs or scrolls.

Oh, as you can see spell on 3rd place as result gave ability on 3rd location with E hotkey

Only problem right now (or not) is that if you have like 4 same spells you can equip all them at once, so you can have like 4 heals and heal one after another reducing cooldown by 75% if you know what I mean

1 last thing...
How to handle PASSIVE abilities???
Should they just act like charms in diablo?

passive abilities arent charms, charms are items, passive abilities must be character depend, like non customizable talent points because if u add critical to battle mage that weird or atleast if u use item then make class requiment minimum

 

[-Kobas-]

passive abilities arent charms, charms are items, passive abilities must be character depend, like non customizable talent points because if u add critical to battle mage that weird or atleast if u use item then make class requiment minimum

What is your suggestion then?

 

[shadowvzs]

What is your suggestion then?

make +1 button if possible, if u click to it then show the passive skills instead actives (they cant be moved to another slot, also dont need huge window)

or

simple amke class requiment at learning it, dont add wizard passive to archer and knight and etc

 

[-Kobas-]

I will see what can be done
If nothing else I will just make few slots for passive abilities, effect will be visible as buff but icon will be removed to save space, this way I can handle custom stats and other shit's that would require dummy icons...

 

[shadowvzs]

a question, since u have alot ability, i guess u have alot passives too, and i think not wc3 default pasive so why do u need buff icon and need to hide icons if most of buff could be solved with dds system and maybe with hidden spellbook?

(i talk only about effect)

 

[-Kobas-]

I will use buff icon to show PASSIVE ability on hero instead regular PAS icon in hero command slots. Because there are 5 for basic orders, 1 for interact 1 for rest and 1 that you get from items like staff or wand.
So there is just 4 slots left and that's for Q W E R abilities that are ACTIVE

 

[Zwiebelchen]

hmm... you decided for a rather meh approach using the standard UI for spellcasting. I'd love to see someone make some good use of DGUI...

Isn't SotP singleplayer? This opens up a lot of possibilities as there is no syncing delay for almost any player specific event. You can basicly abuse selection events and go WILD with them.
Why not use letterbox mode and use DGUI to do some nasty custom UI shit? Or even better: Replace standard UI with alpha textures to hide it? So many possibilities when you don't need multiplayer compat. :/

 

[-Kobas-]

Because I alone have no time to do all that stuff
There are already 2 many thing to handle, I can't experiment with new one.

 

[shadowvzs]

Because I alone have no time to do all that stuff
There are already 2 many thing to handle, I can't experiment with new one.

anyway idk if still dont desync the getlocalplayer thing with computer players (i meant to rare case when creep walk somewhere where have locally a unit for player 1)

 

[best_player_88]

1. Spellbooks and spellbook trees. +121 spells for a single depth 2 spellbook.

Oddly, a spellbook inside a spellbook won't click for me?

 

[Xonok]

Oddly, a spellbook inside a spellbook won't click for me?

They must have different order IDs and not use shared cooldown.

 

[best_player_88]

They must have different order IDs and not use shared cooldown.

Approved. +rep.
Q: How many times is it possible to add another spellbook inside the previus one? only once?

 

[shadowvzs]

Approved. +rep.
Q: How many times is it possible to add another spellbook inside the previus one? only once?

how many times u use different order id

 

[best_player_88]

how many times u use different order id

+rep, didnt check it yet tho