Balancing Act: Constant HP and Mana.

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The Short:
Give every Unit in a map the same amount of HP and Mana and keep it constant. Do not let STR and INT affect the amount of HP and Mana a Unit has. All Units should have the same amount of HP and Mana from early game to endgame.

The Long. WARNING: Essay Ahead
Every game/map created will have balancing issues. There will always be a select few heroes/items which every player will choose time and again. This is because the benefits and advantages provided by such heroes/items greatly outweighs any other heroes/items available in the said game/map.

The reason such balancing is difficult is because there are too many variables to the game/map, from Stats Gain (Agi, Int, Str) to HP and Mana, to Damage and Attack Speed. Of course, such a problem will never go away, which is why Patches and Updates are released periodically to temporary solve the issue at hand (DotA comes to mind, as each of their updates tweaks the balance of the game).

From the way I see it, the problem is due to the ever changing amount of HP and Mana. Imagine, for a moment, that every hero in a game/map has the same amount of HP and Mana. The only difference between heroes are their skills. It would allow for more diverse gameplay, allowing players to have an equal chance of success with just about any hero they choose to play at any given time.

The reasoning behind is such: when HP and Mana remain constant, it is easier to tweak the spells and items to achieve a balanced gameplay. Also, it would allow spells to be effective regardless of the phases in which the game is in (Early, Mid, Late). Anyone who plays DotA would know that those early 300/400 Damage spell is practically useless when the enemy has gone beyond 3,000 HP if it has no other effect. The same can be said of most maps where the spells do Fixed Damage while the Heroes keep gaining more and more HP. (Maps with Tomes anyone?)

Lets say that in a certain map, the heroes' HP range from 1,000 HP to 5,000 HP. If there is a spell that deals 600 Damage to a Hero, that would seem to be overpowered from the view of heroes with 1,000 HP whereas it would seem like a small sting to heroes with 5,000 HP. It would be difficult to balance that particular spell, as it would need to be effective against heroes with 5,000 HP and yet not overpower heroes with 1,000 HP. Such balance is delicate and breaks easily.

Again, in another map, lets assume that there is a spell that does 600 Damage and requires 500 Mana to cast. Lets also assume that there are two heroes, one with 3,000 HP and 2,000 Mana and another with 3,000 HP and 1,000 Mana. The Hero with 1,000 Mana will be the one to die if both heroes go against each other 1-on-1.

What am I trying to suggest here? It is always easier to put a maximum limit on HP and Mana in the first place for easier balancing. Damage, Damage Reduction/Resistance and other variables will become far easier to scale when the amount of HP and Mana remains the same throughout the game.

Next time when you're making a map that requires tedious amount of balancing, do not let INT and STR give players extra Mana and HP. Instead, start the heroes off with a moderate amount of base HP and Mana (1,000/1,000 seems to be fine). That way, you could make a 1,000-Damage spell and scale damage reduction/resistance(through items/skills/whatnot) to prevent it from being overpowered.

In relation to RPG maps, players would want to feel that their Character has become powerful as they gain Levels, that they should not die to low level monsters. A simple way to do this would be to create a Damage Reduction/Resistance System which reduces damage both in Percentage AND in Flat Numbers (similar to Ragnarok Online's Damage Reduction). The same thing can be used in terms of Damage, where Damage is dealt in Multipliers AND Flat Numbers(Example: [AGI x 5] + 400) for consistent effectiveness from early game to late game. In addition, when creating a RPG map, consider lowering the ridiculous amount of HP bosses have. I know that such bosses are meant to be challenging, but giving the boss an absurd amount of HP =/= challenging, merely delaying the inevitable death and being tedious for players. Give the boss a semi-intelligent AI if you want to provide some challenge. (One cannot help oneself but to point again at DotA Maps with AI, as they have some wonderful AIs.)

Of course, I'm not saying that this is the only way to balance a game. Its one of the many, and, in my believe, easiest way to do so.
 
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Well I disagree.

What you are suggesting seems to make game to boring and have less variety. Now, it probably would be more balanced and easier to have a game with all the Mana and HP the same, but it would be significantly more boring to me. I would rather have a map that went through 50 updates for balanced issues than the type that you suggest.

Now that's just complaining without any real reasons besides that it's boring.

But say in your example, with the 1000/5000 HP heroes and the 600 damage spell. The 1000 hero spell would most likely be ranged, and if it's not, be melle with mobility spells or a way of gaining life back (say, vampiric aura). The ranged hero would stay back, and if it saw this hero coming at him, it would stay back. The melle hero would jump in and hurt someone, and then jump out so that the spell really didn't do anything anyway (blademaster/something with blink). However, the 5k HP hero would probably move slower, have less potential to deal a lot of damage to many units (say Archmage vs. Crypt Lord) and easier to be trapped. If it moves slower, the spell can be cast on it more, and if he doesn't do much damage it doesn't really matter.

I'm saying how the heroes probably are. This is just one way of balancing it. Also, can you actually name a game with a 4k difference in base health of heroes who are the same level and and have the same items? That would be a balance issue in itself.

I don't have much more to say, and I realize my arguments are sort of weak. I just wanted to give a way in which someone balances something besides leveling off health and mana. Equalizing HP/MANA would certainly be easier, but good map makers would balance the heroes without the need of that.
 
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But say in your example, with the 1000/5000 HP heroes and the 600 damage spell. The 1000 hero spell would most likely be ranged, and if it's not, be melle with mobility spells or a way of gaining life back (say, vampiric aura).

The ranged hero would stay back, and if it saw this hero coming at him, it would stay back. The melle hero would jump in and hurt someone, and then jump out so that the spell really didn't do anything anyway (blademaster/something with blink).

However, the 5k HP hero would probably move slower, have less potential to deal a lot of damage to many units (say Archmage vs. Crypt Lord) and easier to be trapped. If it moves slower, the spell can be cast on it more, and if he doesn't do much damage it doesn't really matter.

I'm saying how the heroes probably are. This is just one way of balancing it. Also, can you actually name a game with a 4k difference in base health of heroes who are the same level and and have the same items? That would be a balance issue in itself.

I don't have much more to say, and I realize my arguments are sort of weak. I just wanted to give a way in which someone balances something besides leveling off health and mana. Equalizing HP/MANA would certainly be easier, but good map makers would balance the heroes without the need of that.

Thats Exactly what I was thinking,

Each Unit has more or Less HP/MP for different Reasons
In my opinion the reason why things get bad is when people start to have 94% damage Reduction, Health Regen that gives 10,000 hp/second and Damages that go up to 10k themselves with Attack speeds around 30 hits per second

That removes the usefullness of an army

However I'll agree with a sort of "Health Cap Per Level" Idea
The sort of things that Makes Buying Tomes Not as worth while as it normally is but still a necessity like it is most fun.
While keeping Creeps and armys still useful no matter how Low their HP or Damage is.


However... I like the way your thinking.
I would like you to take a look at my forums and see what you like in there.
I Like Balancing.
 
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Perfect balance can be achieved by making everything identicle.

Your post is an excellent example of how just because something is balanced, doesn't mean it is good.

Balance can also be acheived by Rock Paper Scissors,
And just visual Understanding of "Lines of War" and purposes of each unit to make a game relatively fast paced while at the same time give people the oppertunity to micromanage if they do that
 
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@ zach_kirov

Its not possible for me to play any game now since my comp got fried. All I have now is a laptop thats at the brink of death.

@anderf

When every Unit has the same HP and Mana, it does not necessarily means it will be boring. There are other variables to make the game interesting, such as Attack Speed, Move Speed, Damage Reduction, Spells and Attack Range.

Take a look at Counter Strike. The game gives both sides near identical weapons, with a few difference. All of them start with the same amount of cash and HP. The custom map Battle Mage by Dark.Revenant has the same features, as all Heroes have the same amount of initial HP and Mana (100 HP / 50 Mana), and every Hero has the same Stats Gain (5 Mana and 7 HP per STR/INT if I recall correctly), while making all spells accessible to every player.

Imagine for a moment that DotA completely revamped the HP and Mana for every Hero, making them equal. Accordingly, all spells and items are scaled to the new HP and Mana value. Would it make the game boring? Variety still exists in game with the amount of playable Heroes, items and spells still do what they did percentage wise. By tweaking the amount of HP and Mana to be the same for all Heroes, I would go so far as to ASSUME that it would even allow for more diversity as Heroes that don't see much play would be picked more due to the new values.

@Captain Griffen

On the contrary, making something balance will only improve it as a whole.
Now, I never said to make EVERYTHING identical, nor did I say I'm trying to achieve perfect balance. All I'm saying is to make heroes have the same HP and Mana. By doing so, it opens up much more variety and diversity without major issues due to balancing.

Look at Chess. All pieces have the same amount of HP (1 HP) and any piece can kill any other piece. If those pieces were to be given a different HP value, would that make the game better or worse?

---

All in all, HP and Mana should NOT, nay, NEVER be a factor to determine how interesting a game/map is, especially when the map/game has a multiplayer function. There are other ways to do so. Absurd amount of HP and Mana should only appear on bosses of single player RPGs to drain the soul of the player and keep them glued to the game for hours, all the while boasting extra play time. Add a good dose of One-Hit-Kill abilities to the bosses and you have just multiplied the game's play time by the number of O-H-Ks the bosses have.
 
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sound like one angry dota player.

When every hero has differend atributes it adds more to the game. Even if some heroes are stronger against some, it doesnt mean its imbalanced. Some heroes work greater with other heroes and changing hp and stats to same would be just stupid.
 
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I imagine a world where DOTA had all balanced heroes (keep in mind I've played it only once and read about it on it's site)... And it sucked. There would be some variety already in place, but it would just be more annoying and boring. People use tanks because they are simple, and because most people don't like to go in depth. That doesn't mean they are better than any other class, it just means that people use one class more. This is all my opinion really. I just don't see what perfect and just world that you are imagining.

This really summed it up best:
Perfect balance can be achieved by making everything identicle.

Your post is an excellent example of how just because something is balanced, doesn't mean it is good.
 
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I imagine a world where DOTA had all balanced heroes (keep in mind I've played it only once and read about it on it's site)... And it sucked. There would be some variety already in place, but it would just be more annoying and boring. People use tanks because they are simple, and because most people don't like to go in depth. That doesn't mean they are better than any other class, it just means that people use one class more. This is all my opinion really. I just don't see what perfect and just world that you are imagining.

This really summed it up best:

I mean he pointed out the ideas of Health Regen and Armor.
Whats armor except for making each Hitpoint take a certain amount of damage (Like mana sheild)

Id be more worried about spells being OP or UP if this were to happen
-But then again, you can set spell damages to somthing like 12 for each if everyone has 100 life and make stuns do like 5 damage.
Also... Armor REALLY would need to be increased if damage would

But then... Would creeps even be able to kill?
THis has me curious now.....
 
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