(1) Project Y4: A Total Conversion

[Deolrin]

Ask Lioness, if she's still around. She might be willing to give her voice, she did that a lot in the past.

 

[Gausslander]

Thanks for responding RDZ. I'm glad you're steering away from melee, and never did I expect you to make melee in the traditional sense, but I've checked your website and all of the your models are titled as buildings/units for both RDZ industries and aliens. I don't want to sound like a douche, but it's easy to mistake those for RTS units.

Base-building would be cool, but I don't expect a robot to come out of a coal mine to harvest resources for you, lol.

And as far as your attachment system goes, I am ecstatic. Very awesome stuff, indeed. Shoulder cannons/missiles, even if not included in the final, sound awesome as do other attachment ideas you've had.

Will there be any neutral powers to communicate with/get quests from? Assuming you will have a hostile force, and an allied force in a futuristic setting, I'm curious as to how you're going to be implementing optional side-quests into the formula.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

So... Which extension of JASS does this map use again?

 

[indomitable1319]

By the way, RDZ:
It's artifact.

 

[Gausslander]

By the way, RDZ:
It's artifact.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/artefact

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

So... Which extension of JASS does this map use again?

RDZ only uses GUI (unless he decided to switch it up or something this time)
Contrary to what some people preach, it is possible to make a good fulfilling map with standard triggers if you know how to do it right.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

By the way, RDZ:
It's artifact.

WRONG.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/artefact

Thank you sah.

So... Which extension of JASS does this map use again?

It doesn't. See below:

RDZ only uses GUI (unless he decided to switch it up or something this time)
Contrary to what some people preach, it is possible to make a good fulfilling map with standard triggers if you know how to do it right.

Whenwolf is correct. I am using vanilla WE with no extensions, preprocessors or any additional support (beyond the bods of the WC3C IRC). The meat of the map is done in real triggers with the occasional leak-removal or custom function call for convenience.

HOWEVER.

Features such as the procedural maze generator (and all the array-based-list-implementation and the storing-a-2D-array-in-a-1D-array gubbins that go along with it) are implemented in raw Jass. I do all the prep work, deal with timers and standard gubbins that actually run the maze game, with proper triggers, but the actual meat of the algorithm would just be mind-bendingly inconvenient to develop purely in GUI. There are too many things that, without custom functions, would be code duplication central (let alone ball-breaking to click again and again and again).

But that's fine; the maze generator is procedural, it deals with things that don't exist are are created dynamically. Most of the map is, as was the case with This Wreckage, juggling pre-placed units, regions and cameras et cetera: these things are integrated directly with the trigger interface and so it is easier (for me) to work with them there.

I am not afraid to use jass when it is necessary to do so; but for most of my plans, it is not necessary.

 

[Tleno]

Oh my why did I noticed such a great project just now? I mean mechs, cool customness, explosions... what more a map can need?

 

[indomitable1319]

Artifact, artefact.
Artefact could also be artifacts, but then artefact is plural for artifact.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Will there be humanoid units too?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Will there be humanoid units too?

No. Plot-wise, there is absolutely no space for infantry (in fact, it's pretty much integral). Infantry also can't support the kind of heavy armaments it would take to deal with something like the AP-AM.

Maybe I also can't model organics to save myself.

Image: tutorial-man gleefully breaks the fourth wall.

 

[Mechanical Man]

You did some infantry (in spacesuits or whatever). They weren't so bad. Maybe to put it just to show some activity dunno.

But!! How you did those sonic heroes then?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

You did some infantry (in spacesuits or whatever). They weren't so bad. Maybe to put it just to show some activity dunno.

Either way, in comparison to the main mechs they're miniscule. Considering all the huge drones have "gone haywire" and shot everything to pieces, it's not advisable for survivors to be wandering around outside without heavy armour (even the ribbon emitter for the XMech's rifle bullet is at least as wide as the Y4 infantry model's torso).

But adding infantry isn't something I really care to consider. Maybe they could have a place in one of the bonus mini missions, but it's unlikely. It's safer, and easier, to keep things to just bots.

But!! How you did those sonic heroes then?

They're model edits. I can cobble organics together fine out of existing models; I just can't do them from nothing. Since Project Y4 is all me, editing other peoples' stock is no longer an option. Not to mention it would be consistency suicide.

 

[WherewolfTherewolf]

So there is a mushy romance subplot!

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

So there is a mushy romance subplot!

If you can call a few hundred-odd word personal diary entries that have no impact on anything but vaguely help to set the scene mushy romance sub-plots, sure, there will be loads of them.

 

[Gausslander]

Will there be currency in this game?

If so, may I suggest you take a lesson from Mass Effect 2 and Bioshock and have hackable wares to gain currency/reduce cost for items?

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Being single player also would mean that more content can be added, good job!

 

[Vengeancekael]

Ehm, if by more content you mean new things added with an update then it would be a bit complicated, because as far as I know his map will be using the war3 save system and if the map file gets updated, then you won't be able to access your saves.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Will there be currency in this game?

Credits, as befits all generic sci-fi. Management are dicks so you have to pay for all your own upgrades/equipment/etc. Money can't be earned by just wasting spawnies, though: you get paid for completing objectives (whether they be main plot or side quest). You can also sell items as normal.

If so, may I suggest you take a lesson from Mass Effect 2 and Bioshock and have hackable wares to gain currency/reduce cost for items?

Reducing item cost is impossible in WC3, unless I make duplicates of all items that are worth less and swap them, and that's something I don't want to even think about. RDZ Industries isn't a bank so I don't see any Deus Ex-style ATM hacking, but I intend to add a credit chit item so you can poach peoples' personal finances by busting open their containment chambers and such.

Also currently toying (design stage only) with the idea of doing keypads to open things, but considering how squeezed the command card is I think I'd need to limit the possible digits to 1 to 8 (so the bottom two rows are buttons, and the top row displays the four digits you have pressed). Could be a complete mess to implement in a remoately generic way, so until I get further along with things that actually matter that's just a pipe-dream.

Being single player also would mean that more content can be added, good job!

I intend to add all the bonus content before the final release, so when you download you get your huge pile of fun. After that, there won't be any space left on the map to add anything more (unless I start implementing multiple scenarios on the same mini-maps, which isn't actually all that unlikely).

Ehm, if by more content you mean new things added with an update then it would be a bit complicated, because as far as I know his map will be using the war3 save system and if the map file gets updated, then you won't be able to access your saves.

WELL.

The main game is a horrifying kludge, yes, and you will be saving and loading as normal in WC3, so replacing the map file will naturally affect this.

HOWEVER.

Achievements and the fact of missions being unlocked are stored by game cache, which is tied to your user name but is otherwise persistent. So if you've finished the main game, then want to pick up a new version of the map to get fixes to your favourite mini-mission that you've already unlocked, it will remain unlocked. As it already does between independent plays of the map.

 

[Tleno]

Oh, by the way, you say that those upgrade used credit-things will be recived for completeing objective... kinda like those things used for weapon or suit upgrades in Dead Space?
So will then there be some of these items just hidden in some far places so you would have to solve some kind of puzzle or just find it hidden somewhere?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Oh, by the way, you say that those upgrade used credit-things will be recived for completeing objective... kinda like those things used for weapon or suit upgrades in Dead Space?
So will then there be some of these items just hidden in some far places so you would have to solve some kind of puzzle or just find it hidden somewhere?

What? No. Credits are just gold. You can exchange gold for new equipment or some permanent upgrades completely as normal WC3. Gold is earned by having a job, just like real life.

 

[Tleno]

Hmmm, got it... so will there be some gold that can be recieved by picking up some well-hidden storage box or solving some puzzle?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Hmmm, got it... so will there be some gold that can be recieved by picking up some well-hidden storage box or solving some puzzle?

There will be secrets, but they focus more on equipment than raw money. Facility EY43 performed a lot of research and development, so rather than getting paid so you can buy good things (though you can still spend your money on some nice things), you'll be looking around for exciting unique prototypes.

In terms of puzzles, the node hacking mini-game is so far as close as it gets. I'll implement puzzles if they feel right, but so far the plot hasn't demanded any.

 

[Gausslander]

Not saying this is the greatest idea, but if you don't want to have to the command card being cluttered with numbers, you could always just have the player type out the code to activate the terminal, door lock, etc.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Not saying this is the greatest idea, but if you don't want to have to the command card being cluttered with numbers, you could always just have the player type out the code to activate the terminal, door lock, etc.

The biggest problem I have with chat input is that it isn't tied to a physical place or object. It just... is. Isolated. Pure. It's not like you can even use triggers to force the prompt to come up (as far as I'm aware).

There would also be no other instances of chat input being required in the map, so it would be inconsistent with all the other options that are activated by dummy ability.

So using the blank maze area, I could do it with selectable units and this would solve all problems. You'd have to select the unit and then click on a dummy ability to bring up the interface, but that's the same paradigm as node hacking and the crane game anyway.

Now excuse me while I implement this basically meaningless bonus feature and avoid working on the main quest line.

 

[Gausslander]

Ha I'm glad you liked my chat suggestion about the digits in blank space
Now implement that and show me a screenshot so I can gloat about being helpful

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Ha I'm glad you liked my chat suggestion about the digits in blank space
Now implement that and show me a screenshot so I can gloat about being helpful

Your wish is my command.

 

[indomitable1319]

FU-!

 

[Tleno]

Wow, that's a nice keypad. But where is Cancel and Confirm?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Wow, that's a nice keypad. But where is Cancel and Confirm?

Confirm is automatic; once you've entered four digits, it will either let you out and do the magic, or else all the numbers will disappear and you must start again.

The keypad can be exited by pressing the Escape key, though I probably should add an exit button too.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

That is just nice, a bit more texture detail would give it more eye-candy too

 

[Gausslander]

That is just nice, a bit more texture detail would give it more eye-candy too

Because we all know how much eye candy is typically on a keypad...

 

[Section]

oh god! Very Total Conversion! Viewing from SS, just need a bit texture replacing and whoala... This is not Warcraft... hihihihihii.... i like this one! Keep moving guys! Y'd-best!

 

[Deolrin]

Section, I'm fairly sure that only Rao Dao Zao is working on this project.

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Maybe more of us could help with ideas or triggering if he wants?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Maybe more of us could help with ideas or triggering if he wants?

The sentiment is appreciated, but no. Project Y4 is a personal project; it's something I need to do alone to prove to the world (and myself) that I can.

I will only bring people in for any more than bouncing ideas off when I'm at the final stages of development, which remain quite a safe distance in the future.

 

[Section]

hmmm... seems like a mystery... how about your "close" friends? (i mean friends that live nearby) they usually help us better than "online" friends (i think)...

 

[Miss_Foxy]

Do you use vJASS in this map?

 

[Tleno]

Wait so you'll need some brainstormers/idea givers? Yay, one more project waiting for my name in credit list!

No worries, I always come up with something intresting for most of projects...

 

[Deolrin]

tleno, I can't speak for Rao, but I'm fairly sure that's NOT what he meant.
I THINK he was talking about general input from the public community. Even if that's wrong... Why would he mention random people who throw ideas at him in the Credits List...?

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Do you use vJASS in this map?

No.

Wait so you'll need some brainstormers/idea givers? Yay, one more project waiting for my name in credit list!

No worries, I always come up with something intresting for most of projects...

No, that is not what I meant. I meant I bounce ideas off people. Like introducing Gausslander to the concept of a keypad and him telling me to do it with units instead of the command card kludge I was thinking about.

I have on occasion asked people for their direct input about features. When considering what abilities to give to the AP-AM (beyond the EMP bolt and the artillery cannons), for example, both NEHZ and Metal_Sonic heeded the call of the blog and gave me Overdrive.

However, this is relatively rare, because I already have a pretty comprehensive idea of what I want Y4 to do.

In other news, I have been doing a feasibility study on a full-screen computer system. Aside from having the letters come out on their sides, the initial trials have demonstrated that it is completely possible to achieve.

 

[Callahan]

Is there a pilot inside AP-AM cockpit or is it entirely robotized with remote control?
And do you still need idea for death penalty?I have some.

 

[Section]

hm... i think let him built his own system and wait until done...

 

[Callahan]

In his blog he was asking for death penalty ideas.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Is there a pilot inside AP-AM cockpit or is it entirely robotized with remote control?

There is an arbitrary human pilot inside the AP-AM, aye. He smack talks back to Operations Central every so often, and he also talks to trapped civilians.

Initially I explored the concept of him being the silent protagonist you can project yourself onto, but that style just doesn't feel right for me (at least in this situation). I fully intend to never name him, however, and he will be referred to only by his rank (which is current Sergeant). It used to be a code number, but that was a little too distant.

And do you still need idea for death penalty?I have some.

If you have something, I'm interested. Right now, it's a lives system, pure and simple -- lose them all, the game ends (barring the defend-the-processing-core objective, which ends the game on its destruction. Some other objectives may be similar). I currently also have a system of fines lined up; if you kill yourself, then you lose 500 credits for misuse of company property. Normal death just loses a life.

So you're a little late to the party, but as this was pretty much the default option I'm still open to suggestion.

 

[Callahan]

I have several ideas.

Death need to be dissuasive to discourage the player from dying as much as possible and challenge himself.
Lives system don't make death dissuasive as long as you have them.If you have no life then death doesn't even become an option.
Game over completely exclude death from the gameplay and contrain the player to save often breaking the immersion.

I thought about when you die the pilot emergency eject himself from the cockpit and must go back to respawn area by foot.The pilot is invulnerable because he's too small to be considered a threat by enemies.

Or The player get control of a tow truck and must recover his wrecked AP-AM back to the respawn area.

Or the combination of both : pilot eject from cockpit, go back to respawn by foot to take the tow truck to finaly recover your AP-AM and with a small fee because renting the tow truck and repairing the mech cost money it's about consistency.
Death become an active mini mission where respawning is your quest .
It may be fun the few first time but will rapidly get repetitive and boring doing all these round trip making death dissuasive enought without breaking the immersion.

 

[Deolrin]

Callahan's idea sounds awesome, except this whole "the pilot is too small to be considered a thread" thing sounds like bullshit to me. Maybe instead he had some kind of an eject pod(some flying contraption, maybe a tiny hoverplane or even a flying, stylized eject seat). That way you could just say the enemy droids don't have anti-air capabilities.

 

[Rao Dao Zao]

Death need to be dissuasive to discourage the player from dying as much as possible and challenge himself.
Lives system don't make death dissuasive as long as you have them.If you have no life then death doesn't even become an option.
Game over completely exclude death from the gameplay and contrain the player to save often breaking the immersion.

See, I'm of the opinion that without the prospect of an absolute end to the line, then there isn't any meaning to success. There simply must be some method by which the player can lose the game, even if it's hidden behind a buffer layers of lives and respawning.

"Loss" is characterised by management giving the facility up for gone after your repeated failures, and just nuking it back to the Ming Dynasty.

Staying alive does provide Unreal Tournament-style sprees, which I will eventually translate into end-game score and possibly other bonuses, so there will be incentives to stay alive alongside disincentives to getting killed.

I thought about when you die the pilot emergency eject himself from the cockpit and must go back to respawn area by foot.The pilot is invulnerable because he's too small to be considered a threat by enemies.

Or The player get control of a tow truck and must recover his wrecked AP-AM back to the respawn area.

Or the combination of both : pilot eject from cockpit, go back to respawn by foot to take the tow truck to finaly recover your AP-AM and with a small fee because renting the tow truck and repairing the mech cost money it's about consistency.
Death become an active mini mission where respawning is your quest .
It may be fun the few first time but will rapidly get repetitive and boring doing all these round trip making death dissuasive enought without breaking the immersion.

Death becoming an active mini-mission is quite a nice idea; the AP-AM already leaves behind solid wreckage (leaving everything that was in your cargo hold with it; you only get to keep what was on the mech itself, so if you want the items from your hold you'll have to go and get them), so it wouldn't be hard to implement something more.

However, the thing here is that it just pushes the original problem elsewhere. If the pilot is invulnerable, there is no challenge here and this segment is completely meaningless; the player will just get frustrated and reload a game before they died anyway (or worse, quit completely). The movement speed of a normal human against the mechs would also have to be punishing to make it believable.

Then if there are infinite tow-trucks and they respawn (or the truck is also invulnerable), again there is absolutely no prospect of an ultimate defeat; the struggle once again becomes meaningless.

So I'm not convinced. I'm intrigued, but not convinced.

 

[Deolrin]

Staying alive does provide Unreal Tournament-style sprees, which I will eventually translate into end-game score and possibly other bonuses, so there will be incentives to stay alive alongside disincentives to getting killed.

The good old scores and killstreaks from This Wreckage, awesome! I'm really excited for this game.

 

[Callahan]

See, I'm of the opinion that without the prospect of an absolute end to the line, then there isn't any meaning to success. There simply must be some method by which the player can lose the game, even if it's hidden behind a buffer layers of lives and respawning.

"Loss" is characterised by management giving the facility up for gone after your repeated failures, and just nuking it back to the Ming Dynasty.

Staying alive does provide Unreal Tournament-style sprees, which I will eventually translate into end-game score and possibly other bonuses, so there will be incentives to stay alive alongside disincentives to getting killed.


Death becoming an active mini-mission is quite a nice idea; the AP-AM already leaves behind solid wreckage (leaving everything that was in your cargo hold with it; you only get to keep what was on the mech itself, so if you want the items from your hold you'll have to go and get them), so it wouldn't be hard to implement something more.

However, the thing here is that it just pushes the original problem elsewhere. If the pilot is invulnerable, there is no challenge here and this segment is completely meaningless; the player will just get frustrated and reload a game before they died anyway (or worse, quit completely). The movement speed of a normal human against the mechs would also have to be punishing to make it believable.

Then if there are infinite tow-trucks and they respawn (or the truck is also invulnerable), again there is absolutely no prospect of an ultimate defeat; the struggle once again becomes meaningless.

So I'm not convinced. I'm intrigued, but not convinced.

That's the point.It would explain death and respawn realisticaly but the task itself is meaningless and boring.The tow truck will still have reasonable speed to not frustrate the player to the point of reloading or quiting.

Ultimate defeat is the point of view of the game.From player point of view you will respawn at the out-game checkpoint that is your saved game file.I like the idea of having to use save function only when you're done playing kind of like Torchlight or Diablo and not as a tool to counter game over or an abuse to respawn in a boss fight where he's 50% done.

But we might just have different opinion on the subject.After all I don't know how often it is likely to die in the game.This suggestion might work if you die rarely.You're the maker so you know better.