World Editor is a Mess?

[xorkatoss]

well as most of you know World Editor is now released for beta testers and what better way to test it than firing up my current project,
an ORPG that's been in the works for an unbelievable 8 years (mostly because I quit and come back to wc3 every now and then)

and well...it's a mess lol

I made this thread to show you the problems I had so far and more people can comment on their issues and their thoughts about the Reforged World Editor.

Spoiler: WC3R Editor

first of all...HUGE difference in loading times...loading the map in WC3R was very slow and was freezing constantly...

I had them both running at the same time but I had to first open the map in reforged and then in OG editor to be able to run them together.

I'm gonna divide this into different categories. Also take note that I uploaded big screenshots.

Advanced Warning! Saving your map in reforged editor and then trying to open it in OG editor will cause this error:

Spoiler: Error

World Editor

Spoiler

Upon opening the editor I saw huge improvements in the Terrain where default wc3 models were being used.

Spoiler: Unnamed Desert Area

Spoiler: Orc Village

As you can see these are big improvements!

Unfortunately other areas where custom models were being used kinda sucked...

Spoiler: Murloc Village

For some reason the water model was not showing properly in reforged editor and neither does in-game.

Spoiler: Bandit Camp

Spoiler: Magic Hut

Gameplay

Spoiler

Upon firing up the map to play, there were some obvious problems.
Again the loading time was too long!

Original.......18sec
Reforged.....2m 6sec or 126sec

that's a whooping x7 times faster on the OG!

Both games are installed on hdd, I might do a test with ssd in the future.
Blizzard really needs to do something about this issue though.

Spoiler: Loading Screen

Spoiler: Hero Selection

As you can see the skin for Sylvanas no longer works, also immediately you can see that the other hero models look obsolete compared to the new.

Spoiler: Home Town

Creepy Sylvanas Eyes? lol

Spoiler: Random Creep Attack

Overall the gameplay was ok, no major bugs or problems.

Spoiler: Mage Spells

Problems Encountered

Spoiler

-As I mentioned earlier saving your map in reforged editor and opening it in the OG brings up an error.

-The super long wait times for opening a map and loading a map.

-After saving the map in reforged editor and then running it I came upon these bugs:

Spoiler

The abilities worked as intended, the only problem was with the icons and the text.

Overall

Spoiler

It's a bit of a mixed bag really, when Warcraft 3 Reforged was announced I was really excited for this game since I was playing for such a long time and was always dreaming of Warcraft 4 being a thing.

Of course it's going to take a lot of tweaking to get most of the maps in playable state, I personally will have to remove all the old low quality models and wait for blizzard to release their modeling software so people can start making models.

One huge relief is that gui/jass system work without any problems, same goes for custom icons.

I'm happy and annoyed at the same time.

So what are your thoughts?
What do you think of the future of Warcraft 3 Reforged?
Is this the remastered game of the Century? Probably.

 

[Nudl9]

Patch 1.31 was already a downgrade, 1.32 heading even further down in performance isn't even a surprise at this point.
I can't believe this is blizzard we're talking about.

On the bright side old models seem to work, which is good for transitioning maps from old to new over time.
It would suck if all assets were incompatible.

 

[Razorclaw_X]

You're not supposed to mix the PTR editor with the Release editor; they're not meant to be compatible with each other.

 

[xorkatoss]

@Nudl9 Yeah Blizzard needs to do some serious optimization before the final release.
Also please note that not all models work, if you see my pictures, the water model I used didn't show.

@Razorclaw_X Yes I know you are not supposed to mix them.

 

[Marshmalo]

Your map looks a lot better than most peoples when converted over to reforged, so congrats! But the load time worries me, I hope blizzard can optimize things too or my map will be too big for most peoples' computer to handle.

But not sure whether some of your points are complaints or not, you really can't expect a custom Sylvanas skin to work on her Reforged HD version. But I agree her eyes look weird, she looks like an alien!

 

[Chaosy]

Patch 1.31 was already a downgrade, 1.32 heading even further down in performance isn't even a surprise at this point.
I can't believe this is blizzard we're talking about.

On the bright side old models seem to work, which is good for transitioning maps from old to new over time.
It would suck if all assets were incompatible.

Now I will have 666 fps in stead of 669 D:
And 3s loading instead of 2.99999999

wc3 is not a demanding game, performance is rarely an issue.
If you load something heavy, like a huge RPG map. That map contains a dozen hours of gameplay most likely. Who cares if that takes a while to load? 30s of wait is not that much, there are esports titles (such as LoL) with more wait time and less gameplay after each screen.

 

[Nudl9]

Did i say anything about load times? No so shut up.

wc3 is not a demanding game, performance is rarely an issue.

So why do i have performance issues you tell me.

 

[lolreported]

Personally I've had no performance issues at all, the 1.32 World Editor runs much better for me than 1.31. I get small stutters in-game, but overall it's barely any difference from the current version; make sure you don't play with the 24/50hz option, that will make the game extremely sluggish.

Trigger Editor is a night and day difference, but I was extremely disappointed there was no syntax highlight added as it's one of the most requested features. Hopefully it's coming in a later update as several other features are currently disabled.

I'd expected custom models would break, but good to see some work and hopefully that's something that can be fixed. Most of them look dated though, unless you aim for classic feel.

With custom games, I think Reforged have a bright future, particularly with the updated graphics. You can almost make the game look and feel like a whole different, standalone, game now.

 

[verstefyren]

When I test my super simple-triggered legion TD like map, the game crashes at wave 1-2. This is only beta so I'm not gonna rage. They'll probably fix it

 

[xorkatoss]

woah I'm happy people are actually interested in my thread!

@Marshmalo yes I was actually surprised the Desert Area and the Orc Village looked so much better in reforged!
I was actually going with wc3 default buildings/doodads because I was aiming for low file size on my map.
Guess I was lucky on that part lol

@Chaosy I'm still not sure if it's my pc being outdated that's causing my performance issues?
Current specs are: Intel Core i5-2310 @2.90Ghz, 8GB DDR3 RAM, GTX1050
Considering the requirements for reforged are pretty low.
I actually built my "gaming"pc 7 years ago and bought the GTX1050 last year...
I think a Ryzen 5 update is long overdue
Can you post what hardware you rocking? Also is reforged on an ssd?
Also I don't think my map is considered a "huge rpg" yet, file size is only 1.4MB

@Nudl9 lol no need to be aggressive.
Can you post specs as well?

@lolreported I already checked the hertz, it was at 60hz
Although something I noticed was that my GTX1050 had vram usage 1.9/2.0GB
Clock speed was only around 30% the whole time.
Guess Ill do more tests with the graphics turned down so it's not full.

@verstefyren yeah hopefully Blizzard will do a lot of optimization before releasing the game.

 

[Chaosy]

Did i say anything about load times? No so shut up.


So why do i have performance issues you tell me.

So you are telling me loading time is not related to performance?
And it could be because you have half a billion leaks, or that you have 100 0.03 loops running non stop in the background. Or you map is 1.5 gigs in size.
Maybe you have a iStone 3 that you run the game with.

Many possibilities, I have never experienced any noticeable lag in my maps and I do not aim my code for optimal performance. Of course my maps are not the largest in terms of both code and imports, but I have never experienced performance issues in any map I have played either.

@Chaosy I'm still not sure if it's my pc being outdated that's causing my performance issues?
Current specs are: Intel Core i5-2310 @2.90Ghz, 8GB DDR3 RAM, GTX1050
Considering the requirements for reforged are pretty low.
I actually built my "gaming"pc 7 years ago and bought the GTX1050 last year...
I think a Ryzen 5 update is long overdue
Can you post what hardware you rocking? Also is reforged on an ssd?
Also I don't think my map is considered a "huge rpg" yet, file size is only 1.4MB

Your CPU was discontinued in 2013 so it was on its last legs when you bought it already. could be it, your GPU should be more than enough. I was running wc3 with a 960 a few years ago without issues.
I have not tried reforged yet, I was mainly speaking about this poor 1.31 performance hit. You should never judge a game before release anyway, a buddy of mine could not launch HOTS in alpha because of some technical error, optimization and technical fixes are usually last.

But yes, I am using a SSD for the usual wc3. They are as cheap as HDDs anyway

 

[Nudl9]

The 1.31 editor is slow to use.
I'm not even talking about load times.
Every time you copypaste terrain you have to save the map or you risk losing progress from the crash that can happen.
This crash didn't use to happen.
The performance wasn't an issue before 1.31.
Zoom out of in-game levels and the performance is dogshit.
Object editor is slower.
GUI editor is waaay slower.

 

[lolreported]

The 1.31 editor is slow to use.
I'm not even talking about load times.
Every time you copypaste terrain you have to save the map or you risk losing progress from the crash that can happen.
This crash didn't use to happen.
The performance wasn't an issue before 1.31.
Zoom out of in-game levels and the performance is dogshit.
Object editor is slower.
GUI editor is waaay slower.

I doubt anyone would argue that the 1.31 editor is slow and riddled with performance issues, but if you have BETA access you should give the 1.32 editor a try. All current problems aside it's a lot faster than the 1.31 editor.

However, I could see that the new models could cause performance issues on low-end computers at large maps in the editor, when terraining.

 

[GIMLI_2]

I had no performance issues so far. It seems faster actually.

Its a bit sad that there is no syntax highlighting, which makes writing triggers a pain in the ass.
Also, there are new functions that dont work at all.

 

[Rui]

first of all...HUGE difference in loading times...loading the map in WC3R was very slow and was freezing constantly...

An empty large map (480x480 or close) already takes around 1 minute to load even in 1.27. I can only imagine in 1.31 and Reforged when it's filled with doodads and units

 

[Nudl9]

My Warcraft Royale map is 256x256, 25mb map with a bunch of triggers, objects, 1000+ imports.
I've never checked how long it takes to load, 1-2m maybe.
It got much worse with recent patches and with the map becoming bigger and bigger.

I usually go about making coffee during this time so i'm not too concerned about loading, saving etc.
However testing the map for new functions, spells, etc is a massive pain.
I usually add or implement 4-5 whole functions before saving/running a test because the save/test is a workflow funnel.

 

[Chaosy]

That is why I usually code in separate maps if possible. Sure its annoying to reimport stuff but I find it more convenient

 

[Anachron]

I don't have Reforged but the world editor is quite fast here on 1.31.1 on Vulkan Drivers on an Wine emulation on my Linux laptop.

 

[xorkatoss]

@Chaosy Yes I know my cpu is old, my whole gaming pc is old except my graphic card lol
also the ssd might be the cause since it significantly improves performance, I only have win10 on a 120gb sdd and keep everything else on hdd
and no SSDs are not as cheap as HDDs, locally I found 1TB SSD = €120 & 1TB HDD = €45 (euro) and these are the cheapest options

@Nudl9 really? I didn't actually notice any difference on the editor 1.31, but it must be because I don't use it often

@Rui I made an empty 480x480 map and I tested it for ver 1.31:
Opening in Editor: 7.20sec , Loading in Game: 24.5sec

If you use 1.27 and it really takes 1 min to load you should really update


UPDATE:
After messing around with the reforged trees I tried to improve my map's reforged experience.

Spoiler: Village Images(BIG)

How it was before Reforged:

How I made it in old editor:

How it looks in reforged editor:

Now my map is a bit ready for reforged I guess? Ill have to deal with seeing the ugly old wc3 trees until the release but at least now I know my map can be reforged-proof lol

Also I'm gonna include a map with all the reforged trees and some random doodads(can only be opened in reforged editor)

 

[Marshmalo]

The 1.31 editor is slow to use.
I'm not even talking about load times.
Every time you copypaste terrain you have to save the map or you risk losing progress from the crash that can happen.
This crash didn't use to happen.
The performance wasn't an issue before 1.31.
Zoom out of in-game levels and the performance is dogshit.
Object editor is slower.
GUI editor is waaay slower.

The copy and paste terrain bug is annoying yes, I found it helps to have gridlines on, I don't know why this fixes it but there is still a chance to crash even when terraining with gridlines on. Also using the old 32 bit editor can help.

Also, I'm guessing you know to turn off the brush list? Honestly, it is the most useless and laggy tool in the world editor and Blizzard should just remove it. Every editor thats aware of it ahs it disabled.

 

[Nudl9]

I think i tried copypasting in both 32 and 64, didn't experience any difference as both crashed.

Brush list have always been off.

 

[Rui]

I made an empty 480x480 map and I tested it for ver 1.31:

Sorry, I expressed myself badly. When I said «empty», I was actually referring to a map in which a lot about the terrain has been changed, between elevations and ground textures. I had doodads, but I deleted them all and then checked. It gets heavy.

Either way, you probably have a better machine than I do. Your test is in classic, yes? Not Reforged?