WIP: The basic SC2 attachment hero

[Zwiebelchen]

I'm currently working on the first basic attachment hero for SC2. I already completed the mesh, the bones, envelopes, attachment points and the mapping. The only thing left are the actual animation keys.

The model will come without a head, allowing to attach different heads to the unit per actor. With the "inherit animation" tag set to true in the data editor, this even allows me to create floating hair for those attachment heads, just by giving them a walk animation.

Also, this model will come with an extremely high degrees of customization: Having 20 custom attachment points, it basicly allows to attach models EVERYWHERE to the unit. Now finally even pant attachments are possible without the need of animations. Just create two tube segment models for the upper and lower legs and there you go.

I just wish it was possible to invert the axes of the attachment nodes. Like that, you wouldn't even need to create two models for shoulder attachments (A normal and a mirrored one) ... but this is just a small issue.

This is a list of all attachment points the unit has:

Overhead
Origin
Weapon Left
Weapon Right
Center (inherits chest position, but not orientation --> for attachments like magical shields or auras)

Hardpoint: Chest, inherits orientation
Hardpoint 01: Shield, left lower arm
Hardpoint 02: Shield, right lower arm
Hardpoint 03: Shield, attached to back
Hardpoint 04: Sword Sheath left
Hardpoint 05: Sword Sheath right
Hardpoint 06: Back, Sword Sheath left
Hardpoint 07: Back, Sword Sheath right
Hardpoint 08: Left Foot
Hardpoint 09: Right Foot
Hardpoint 10: Left lower arm
Hardpoint 11: Right lower arm
Hardpoint 12: Left Upper arm
Hardpoint 13: Right Upper arm
Hardpoint 14: Left shoulder
Hardpoint 15: Right shoulder
Hardpoint 16: Left Upper leg
Hardpoint 17: Right Upper leg
Hardpoint 18: Left lower leg
Hardpoint 19: Right lower leg
Hardpoint 20: Cape

And finally, the model will have DOZENS of custom animations for all your needs:
Multiple Stand animations, 2 sword animations, 2 two-handed weapon swings, bows, dual-wielding anims, a spear animation, gun animations (2 handed and pistols), such as throw animations. Plus, it will also come with multiple cast animations, such as sidestep animations for your arrow-key-control needs.

PS: The pants' skin is still subject of change



Properly applied envelopes: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...12936-wip-sc2-human-base-model-slideshow8.jpg
Attachment points: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...77409-wip-sc2-human-base-model-slideshow9.jpg

 

[HeroSlayer]

This is amazing. !!!!!
It will be really useful for future Rpgs

 

[ShadowFlare]

Looking forward to this! +rep

 

[Amigurumi]

wow, this looks amazing!
Good to hear that some modelers already do a great job in sc2

+rep

 

[MeKC]

Sounds really good, with a universal character

Can you also add these animations?:
- Talk
- Sit down
- Swim
- Pick up (like picking up plants)

Thats some of the animation I missed in WC3.

Keep up the good work, and good luck.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

For compatibility reasons, I switched my biped/physics based animation set to a simple bones/skin based. Dunno wether SC2 supports bipeds and physics, so I want to go sure, even if it means additional work...

@ MeKC: sure ... why not? I just wish I could somehow motion capture all those anims as it is really hard to create realistic looking anims just by moving bones around ... Theres a nice software that uses 3 webcams to get a home motion capturing system, but I do not have 3 cams ... ^^'

 

[Robbepop]

hiho,

a very useful model.
but would be even more useful if you could add a female version of it!

Robbepop

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

i had this idea like ten times before and i dont see how the trousers would work as there is no inter mesh collision...
the "two tubes" thingy will look definatly really fake!

the BaseMesh has some flaws, especially zhe hands (the thumb looksawefully wrong dude, aswell as please model out the fingers, you dont need to make tham highhpoly, but this isnt looking good, honestly) and the knees (they have no definition, but are more like a sphere!)
the spec map is way too glossy, looks as if he's sweating the shit out of him and there is no interruption between the skin and the pants)
did u do the skin yourself? looks stretched on the sides...
also he has no nipples! maybe making a clean shot of the mesh (where u put more work in like 30 seconds) would make the whole thing a little more interesting, as for now this just looks like scrambled together in a hustle...

u dont need an actual cape attahcment point, you can put it on the chest and just move the cape itself in your modeling program...
(also, how do u plan to make capes with hoodies?)
and what about the character using a staff and a cape? INTERSECTIONS FTW

go get yourself motion capturing files for the biped u are using, otherwise it will kill u to animate so many different animations correctly (and u can blend different animation tracks -> e.g. walk to sit)

(just read the that u already plan on doing that, u dont need three webcams, there are sited out there letting u dl motion capturing data)

yeah, and before everyone starts booing at me, thats just my two cents, ignore it or cope with it

also u must be very carefull about the seams occuring when attaching the head... because the upper row of vertics of the cervix will be skinned, whereas the lower row of the head/face will be an attachment which is not skinned..

 

[CYrusmaster]

+Rep

 

[Zwiebelchen]

i had this idea like ten times before and i dont see how the trousers would work as there is no inter mesh collision...
the "two tubes" thingy will look definatly really fake!

Then again, I think it depends on how those models are made. I think if you add some kind of sphere on the upper end point of the lower leg, it will cover the ankle there. As both upper leg and lower leg are non-deformable by default (just a giant bone in the human body after all), I think it will be possible.

the BaseMesh has some flaws, especially zhe hands (the thumb looksawefully wrong dude, aswell as please model out the fingers, you dont need to make tham highhpoly, but this isnt looking good, honestly)

I agree on the thumb. I think I'm going to remaster the mesh at this point again. However, I don't see a reason why I should model out every finger, as this model is not meant to be extremely high poly, but on a reasonable scale of using it for 3rd person cams. Heck, even WoW does not have seperate fingers for most of their models.

and the knees (they have no definition, but are more like a sphere!)

Don't know what you mean ... I think the knees look very realistic. But it may be an issue of viewing angle.

the spec map is way too glossy, looks as if he's sweating the shit out of him and there is no interruption between the skin and the pants)

I will reduce the glossyness a little.

did u do the skin yourself? looks stretched on the sides...
also he has no nipples! maybe making a clean shot of the mesh (where u put more work in like 30 seconds) would make the whole thing a little more interesting, as for now this just looks like scrambled together in a hustle...

Well, I tried to use a very small skin file for the character (512x512 pixels). That way, it has become very blurry, but I feel like it is alright. It's not like the skin looks weird the way it is now.

u dont need an actual cape attahcment point, you can put it on the chest and just move the cape itself in your modeling program...

Yeah, but why not using a cape attachment point? I mean; the game allows having 20 hardpoints, so why shouldn't I use them to make it easier for modellers?

(also, how do u plan to make capes with hoodies?)

Just create a model for the head and one for the back so both attach properly.

and what about the character using a staff and a cape? INTERSECTIONS FTW

Don't know what you mean. Where's the problem with that?

go get yourself motion capturing files for the biped u are using, otherwise it will kill u to animate so many different animations correctly (and u can blend different animation tracks -> e.g. walk to sit)

I will see how it works out to make those anims by myself. Then again, I already replaced the biped by ordinary bones as I am not quite sure wether the .m3 format allows bipeds (At least the model imports of SC2 didnt use bipeds). But thanks for the idea of trying to get professional motion capturing data. Lets see what I can find on the web. Any link maybe you already found somewhere?

yeah, and before everyone starts booing at me, thats just my two cents, ignore it or cope with it

Well, you created a lots of models for WC3, so I think you got a little bit more experience that me, so I am thankful for every comment making it better.

also u must be very carefull about the seams occuring when attaching the head... because the upper row of vertics of the cervix will be skinned, whereas the lower row of the head/face will be an attachment which is not skinned..

I think I will make the neck a little bit longer, so that you can just place the head directly (and maybe a little bit below) to the end of the neck (your head won't have a neck in this case). That way, the seam won't be that much of a problem, I hope.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

so u are planning on faking trousers with spheres at the joints and tubes at the leg?
hm.. i would try it out testwise before u settle on that idea...

the staff / cape thingy is that the staff as it is long and big will most certainly at asome point just stick through the cape!

again, when u attach sperate models for hood and cape the its not going to stick together in animations and wil have bugs, promised

finding mocap data is easy, i think you'll find enough on these sites:
http://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/resources/HDM05/
http://mocapdata.com/index.cgi?category_id=19053
http://mocap.cs.cmu.edu/
http://sites.google.com/a/cgspeed.c...dsmax-friendly-release-of-cmu-motion-database

its really hard to make good animations, u got to keep so muhc in mind, actually the hardest bit will be the secondary motion of everything (u should google Disney's 12 Principles of Animation and a lot of youtube animation cycles if u do them on your own)

the thing is following, biped is just bones with constraints (like u can't bend the knee the wrong way etc)...
Its wayne if u use biped or a custom rig, wc3 didnt directly support vertex animation (that is the vertecs itself are moved) but the acutal bone movement...
I think you can stick with your biped, even if it does not work u can bake the animations with certain scripts on the net!

btw: 512 x 512 is not small, in fact its medium sized and does not tell why its stretched

its not only that u should turn down the glossiness a bit, but mask it off of the cloth

 

[Modhell]

...as you can inherit animation....

...wouldn't you just be able to model the trousers over the naked model, skin them to the leg bones then check the anims for any clipping, then add a few more bones or adjustments to the pants mesh followed by deletion of all the unnecessary mesh and bones of the original model.... (also if the pants are made of a similar mesh then I don't suppose there would be any clipping anyhow)

...that way wouldn't you have perfect pants for every animation without much extra effort?

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

well, yes, you can easily set up a cloth modifier and precompute the vertex animation in max, then export the trousers and stick them to your hero, BUT you may not be able to resize the unit in any direction, thus u have everyone having the same physical anatomy...

 

[Modhell]

well, yes, you can easily set up a cloth modifier and precompute the vertex animation in max, then export the trousers and stick them to your hero, BUT you may not be able to resize the unit in any direction, thus u have everyone having the same physical anatomy...

Well I don't think everyone having the same physical anatomy in a SC2 custom game really matters, noone cared in war 3 that they used the marine model for... hmmm... everything.

But still when you re-sized a model in war3 all attachments were re-sized to suit (everything like buffs, attacks etc.) so I think it should work the same in SC2

Edit- in sc2 u can resize the units x,y,z values, I haven't set any attachments to the units yet to see how they resize with it, but here's a look at a couple of xtreme resizes next to a standard unit... so if units attachments resize accordingly (like war3) there is no reason why you can't do slight adjustments to anatomy

 

[Zwiebelchen]

...as you can inherit animation....

...wouldn't you just be able to model the trousers over the naked model, skin them to the leg bones then check the anims for any clipping, then add a few more bones or adjustments to the pants mesh followed by deletion of all the unnecessary mesh and bones of the original model.... (also if the pants are made of a similar mesh then I don't suppose there would be any clipping anyhow)

...that way wouldn't you have perfect pants for every animation without much extra effort?

The thing is ... I want to community to be able to make their own attachment models for this hero - and most people do not know about modeling or animating at all. And having animated trousers would lead to weird deformations when adding new vertices to the model without adjusting the envelopes properly.
Plus, the size required for the trousers model would be much higher by having all the animations the hero has.

so u are planning on faking trousers with spheres at the joints and tubes at the leg?
hm.. i would try it out testwise before u settle on that idea...

Well, I'm pretty sure it will work. I mean, in case there are clipping errors, I always have the option to still use the approach with the baked trousers.

the staff / cape thingy is that the staff as it is long and big will most certainly at asome point just stick through the cape!

Well ... I think this is none of my business after all, as it always depens on how the cape or staff model is done. But I can surely provide multiple stand animations with the hero wearing the staff in a different way.

again, when u attach sperate models for hood and cape the its not going to stick together in animations and wil have bugs, promised

You can also just attach the hood to the head instead and animate it from there. The cape attachment point is optional after all.

finding mocap data is easy, i think you'll find enough on these sites:
http://www.mpi-inf.mpg.de/resources/HDM05/
http://mocapdata.com/index.cgi?category_id=19053
http://mocap.cs.cmu.edu/
http://sites.google.com/a/cgspeed.c...dsmax-friendly-release-of-cmu-motion-database

its really hard to make good animations, u got to keep so muhc in mind, actually the hardest bit will be the secondary motion of everything (u should google Disney's 12 Principles of Animation and a lot of youtube animation cycles if u do them on your own)

Thanks for all those hints ... I will consider them and try out that mocap data.
I got a friend helping me and we will animate by using a good digital camera, using slowmotion and checking important frames of the videos to get the cornerpoints of the animation cycle.

the thing is following, biped is just bones with constraints (like u can't bend the knee the wrong way etc)...
Its wayne if u use biped or a custom rig, wc3 didnt directly support vertex animation (that is the vertecs itself are moved) but the acutal bone movement...
I think you can stick with your biped, even if it does not work u can bake the animations with certain scripts on the net!

I already changed it to ordinary bones. Can't hurt. ^^

btw: 512 x 512 is not small, in fact its medium sized and does not tell why its stretched

Because the skin sucks (being a WoW one). I would love to have a custom skin for this, but I am so not good in making textures. Maybe someone volunteers to create a custom skin?

its not only that u should turn down the glossiness a bit, but mask it off of the cloth

I will do that. Thanks.

 

[Modhell]

Well I don't know, I just think if you are going to all this trouble to make the model making lesser quality attachments like tubed leggings with spheres for knees kinda weakens it... like that would of been fine for warcraft 3 but this is a new game that allows for a much higher standard. There will be plenty more modders and modellers jumping on the SC2 bandwagon too since it is a fresh release.

Also I'd hope since war3 has an 8mb cap that SC2's would be larger, so I don't foresee file size becoming too much of an issue.

Still, I'm looking forward to see how this all works out... looking good for the most part and should be pretty impressive once completed

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

having set the normal bones DOEs hurt, because u now cant load mocap data naymore...
really, u are somehow making the impression that u dont know what u r doing there >.<

i'd definatly agree with modhell, the tube thingy really wont work, its definatly looking not good!

towards the resized unit: would be interesting to see wether the vertex animation is scaled, too, because then the animation would be larger (like if u got one vertex normally swaying x length segments and then scale it twice as big the vertex animation will be twice as far, being a good candidate for clipping!

and if u cant texture, how do u want to do all of the atttachments?


i think that sc2 doesnt have a map cap at all anymore, thoguh i could be wrong...
i think i read something about the files being saved on different spots than it was in wc3 thus not being loaded via battlenet, but the map itself or whatever (i know, this doesnt make much sense as u r downloading the map via battlenet, whatever)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

having set the normal bones DOEs hurt, because u now cant load mocap data naymore...

The thing is, that we simply do not know ANYTHING about how the SC2 models are done so far (Kudos to blizzards stupid "No StarTools before the game goes gold" policy). All we have for now is some really bad imported models that definitely not use a biped.
I still have that biped file. If you insist that it's better to keep the biped for now, I will do so. However, I just hope it converts into real bones just fine later, without much additional work in case bipeds aren't supported by SC2.

really, u are somehow making the impression that u dont know what u r doing there >.<

To be honest, this is my first real animated model. And for that, I think it's pretty impressive. You could probably do better than that. Then again, why don't you try to? And you can believe me if I say that I am a perfectionist. If something doesn't look right, I will try again and again until it looks good. I have no problems working weeks on the animations if it has to be so. But feel free to contact me when you feel like you want to help me improving this.

i'd definatly agree with modhell, the tube thingy really wont work, its definatly looking not good!

Well ... I'm gonna test it for sure. As I said, if it does not look good, I can ALWAYS switch to the animated leg trousers instead. It's not like this means any real additional work (in fact, it requires even LESS work, because you do not need to do all the clipping tests and stuff).

towards the resized unit: would be interesting to see wether the vertex animation is scaled, too, because then the animation would be larger (like if u got one vertex normally swaying x length segments and then scale it twice as big the vertex animation will be twice as far, being a good candidate for clipping!

As I think rescaling is inherited for the attached models, it would always fit. However, you WILL have deformations (still no clipping problems) occuring when you don't use uniform-scaled values, of course. But this is the nature of scaling after all.

and if u cant texture, how do u want to do all of the atttachments?

Well, I never really intended to do all the attachment models at the first place. The idea was to provide the basis for the community to create their own attachment models. Also, I always wanted to make as much attachment models as possible by using ingame skins. For things like metal, there are THOUSANDS of ingame skins available and even things like leather, wood, etc. can be found in the mpq. That way, you save a lot of import space too. (Keep in mind that the campaign interactive-cinematics of Wings of Liberty will be completely modelled and thus require a HUGE collection of very high resolution textures which might be used for attachment models)
But as I said: I never intended to create all the attachment models by myself, maybe except for the heads.

i think that sc2 doesnt have a map cap at all anymore, thoguh i could be wrong...
i think i read something about the files being saved on different spots than it was in wc3 thus not being loaded via battlenet, but the map itself or whatever (i know, this doesnt make much sense as u r downloading the map via battlenet, whatever)

Well, as you will upload your maps on battlenet instead of just "hosting" your maps, I could imagine this being true. But then again, I don't trust blizzard. I'm sure they will come up with some stupid limit.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

the biped is just another form of bone rigging...
after all its the coordinates of the vertices at certain frames that count and those are convertable with scripts you can find (like over at www.scriptspot.com or maybe even on www.maxplugins.de <- as your nick indicates you are probably gereman, but all of the others, the site is in english)

why i dont make u a basemodel?
because i a have my own plannings on doing a similar thing since a longer time than u and mine will be a max script with morph targets all over the body ensuring different muscle anatomy and such things...
though this is not official and i will only start it if i'll eventually have time for it, because these days i'm busy all day doing this here:
http://www.xxm0rph3usxx.blogspot.com/

which is really cracking my head!

then you'll probably need to write a big tutorial

 

[Zwiebelchen]

the biped is just another form of bone rigging...
after all its the coordinates of the vertices at certain frames that count and those are convertable with scripts you can find (like over at www.scriptspot.com or maybe even on www.maxplugins.de <- as your nick indicates you are probably gereman, but all of the others, the site is in english)

why i dont make u a basemodel?
because i a have my own plannings on doing a similar thing since a longer time than u and mine will be a max script with morph targets all over the body ensuring different muscle anatomy and such things...
though this is not official and i will only start it if i'll eventually have time for it, because these days i'm busy all day doing this here:
http://www.xxm0rph3usxx.blogspot.com/

which is really cracking my head!

then you'll probably need to write a big tutorial

man you should really have told me all this earlier. But I still think its a good idea to continue working on this. I remastered the mapping now and it looks much better. Oh and besides, the texture is only 256x256; was wrong when I told you it was 512x512.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Alright, finished the "Stand 01" and "Stand 02" anim cycles now.

Made some (low quality) GIFs out of them.

Remember that the animation speed of those GIFs does not really match the real animation speed, especially for Stand 01, which is a little bit slower than seen in the gif.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

definatly read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_basic_principles_of_animation

its.. okay... and works, though you should definatly exaggerate it a quite bit more!
well, actually i wanted to not speak about my plans at all, because it might fail and then everybody is disappointed

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Two more anims, but this time I was to lazy to make gifs, but the poses should be enough to get the idea:

The first is Stand Staff, which should be self-explaining.
The second is Stand Ready, which is the basic Ready animation for 1H+shield. All other Readys get a weapon tag like Staff, Bow, etc..

 

[DarkPost]

Looks like the body of a ghost, and I love ghosts...

Off-topic, those underwears looks like the underwear that Blood Elves wear in WoW...
Now how did I notice that? o.o

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Off-topic, those underwears looks like the underwear that Blood Elves wear in WoW...
Now how did I notice that? o.o

Because I said it? And the pants will be changed in the future, once I got the time to reskin them.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

An update a day keeps lacking interest away:

- Reskinned the pants
- Added two new anims: Stand Ready Dualwield, Stand Ready Twohanded

 

[Dr Super Good]

I advise being careful with the detail of the model. Remember that most of the time the chest and legs will be covered with armor of some kinds so adding too much detail will consuome needless graphic resources which could make a fps difference if many are present.

Key areas which need detail are the hands and animations. The hands cause people will not be expecting closewelded fingers like in WC3 (might even have articulating fingers) and the animations cause people will want some quite pointless but useful animations.

Eg a pickup animation for receiving or giving quest items (or looting corpses). A set of defensive position animations (with hands ready to block when unarmed, with eapon at angle if wielding a 2H or shield in positing if 1H). Also you will probably need multiple death animations to suite with different deaths (although those might be separate models looking at how SC2 works). Additionally you will need animations for spells and stuff. Emotional animations might be good for cinimatic or quest use (face palm, shake fist, handshake, colapse to floor in shook).

For crouching and stuff, you could probably have the model support it by lowering or raising its body above the ground and getting the legs to adapt automatically to the height (Look at colosus to see how they do this).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I advise being careful with the detail of the model. Remember that most of the time the chest and legs will be covered with armor of some kinds so adding too much detail will consuome needless graphic resources which could make a fps difference if many are present.

The model is low poly. It actually has less vertices than the zealot model. No worry about that.

Key areas which need detail are the hands and animations. The hands cause people will not be expecting closewelded fingers like in WC3 (might even have articulating fingers)

I decided against articulated fingers for attachment purposes. It's definitely easier to make glove models if you don't have to care about to much bones.

and the animations cause people will want some quite pointless but useful animations.

I plan adding a swim animation and a sit animation. Maybe also a pickup animation. However, I will not add emotions or cinematic animations, as this would go to far if you ask me.
For the attack and pose animations, I have already made multiple different animations that are accessable by adding animation tags to the unit.
There will be 1H+Shield, 2H, dual wield, bow, staff, polearm, unarmed combat, rifle, gun and dualwield gun animations, such as 4-5 spell animations.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

u cant really tell him if the polycount is bigger or not, because its not finsihed yet!
or do u know exactly how much polys will be added through the attachments? right...

Thats just lazyness deciding not to model each finder individually!

show me a wireframe plz!

 

[Triceron]

Individual fingers aren't necessary for RTS-grade models. Working with mitten hands is perfectly fine. You can even get away with keeping the box hands. Almost all of the Terran infantry units have the same box hands as units from Warcraft 3.

Rigging a character with individual finger bones to make use of individual fingers is a waste of time and effort unless you're planning on a very specific type of game that requires individual finger movement that is clearly seen (eg. First Person Shooter UI holding a gun). Not to mention, the extra bones for fingers = more data per animation = exponentially larger filesizes.

 

[The World Is Flat]

Wow, really good, this is AMAZING, but, what is the polycount? I didn't see it. this is brilliant. +rep

 

[Zwiebelchen]

This is the wireframe ... as you can see, the polycount is not higher than for every other SC2 model.

Faces count for my model: 2344
Faces count for a zealot: 2871

Of course, the zealot has armor and a head, but I think it's absolutely no problem to have this model somewhat higher in polycount than ordinary SC2 units, as it's meant to be used as a hero for 3rd person styled games, which usually require a little better graphics.

I think with attachments and stuff, the facescount will not exceed 5000, making the unit drop performance the same as 2 zealots. But of course, this depends on the attachment models.

@ hand discussion: It would make no sense. I made the hands static and only turn the entire hand instead of animating every finger, for two reasons:
1. It allows unanimated glove models
2. You won't see the difference anyway, as 95% of all poses (well ... thats the nature of combat positions) have fists or closed finger positions.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

yeah, but the npc in front of you has no fingers...

and having fingers doesnt mean u have to neccesarily have to animate them, just model them in a relaxed pose and it wont be seen while holding a sword!

and i think 2300 is too much for this!
(you could have used that much for a detailed face and body, lets say a round 2500 for those would have been good)

and thats not a wireframe shot! its a shot showing the wireframe, but man, dont u think that this is not sufficient? i mean, what do u think do i want to see on the WIREFRAME SHOT? a WIREFRAME, and that distinguishable from the background and all the other stuff!

there are so many tutorials on about "how to make a proper wireframe shot" and u are throwing out a screengrab?
its grey on grey with backsides looking through, do u really think that helps at all?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Omg, then be more precise about what you want from me. *rolleyes*
I thought you just wanted to see the density of the vertices.

But whatever, what are you trying to achieve here? At first, I thought you wanted to help, but in the end you seem to go "I can do better than this" instead.
To be honest, I'm losing interest in your "criticism", as it's not helping at all.

I'm perfectly fine with the mesh. If you don't like the model, feel free not to use it or make a better one. I personally would use this model for any of my maps as I think it's awesome. But that's just me. I'm not a professional and this is fucking SC2, not Oblivion.
Most of the SC2 models don't even have a thumb!

And plus, even if I would want to add fingers, I simply can not anymore, as for some reason, my 3ds max is bugged. Once I add or remove vertices to the mesh, my latest changes to the UVW unwrap will be gone and I don't have the nerve to make that again.
EDIT:
Okay, converting it to a new editable mesh doesn't work either, as this consumes the skin modifier. Maybe check it out before I go on:

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

well, then i'm stopping to post here..
bye!

pm me if u want anything, i'm not going to look at this thread anymore...
what are u uploading your stuff for if u dont like to hear crits, hm?
sry i'm no "wow, this is uber" guy like the world is flat or whatever, because i see potential and want to push u a little further...
i see i'm not investing my time right, u dont need to roll your eyes!

 

[Zwiebelchen]

pm me if u want anything, i'm not going to look at this thread anymore...
what are u uploading your stuff for if u dont like to hear crits, hm?

This is not what I said.
I'm perfectly fine with criticism, as long as it is helping. Telling me something like "With that many faces, you could have done the same even with a head and hands" is NOT helping.

I've already made many changes to the model based on the feedback I got in this thread. However, you might understand that there are things you can not easily change anymore once you reach a certain level of progress. I want to add fingers to the mesh, but it won't let me anymore, as any extrude would cause my UVW unwrap to reset for some reason. ... I could just try to convert both mesh and unwrap to a new editable mesh and hope that it works then. Gonna try that now.

 

[Toukichiro]

Actually I do modeling to and he right .... U have 2344 faces and no fingers... For a RPG char that pretty wrong.... I read morpheous feedback and he far harder on me than he is u and he only trying to help.

I think 2300 is too much for this!
(you could have used that much for a detailed face and body, lets say a round 2500 for those would have been good)

That is great feedback because he right 2300 faces is way to high poly for a base mesh that meant to be clothed. Ur armor pieces will prob be 200-500 facew depending on the detail same with most armor pieces... U are look at 5,000 Faces when everything said and done and that Like getting into Gears of War polygon count and I don't see the results... HL2 models are 2000 faces I think... Also lets talk in triangles faces are not triangles and games only read triangles


The fact is he trying to tell u nicely u will prob have to remodel it to give a high quality result.... The fact is it a ok but if u want to get it to look right since u are a perfectionist do it again... If u want harsh cristim than here some

The current model does not have any anatomy for humans. The triceps and biceps are not showing the arms look like a tube. The chest is not defined enough does not show a rib cage or any form of anatomy. The feet look to flat and like he a jelly man. In short remodel him so he does not look like a jelly man. That what he could of said and if anyone disagrees than their full of shit... Look at gladiator he ripped ur guy looks nothing like a normal human but he has enough of a polygon count to.

I mean Sc2 engine can be pushed to creating GoW in it i am not joking U COULD MAKE Gears of War in sc2 and look as good as Gears of War.... It supports Normals/Specs/Emissions MultiLayered textures ect...

Quality wise It coming Along but it very beginner. I am a perfectionist to and I study human anatomy and I plan on only releasing chars that I can say are at least equal to L4D or GoW quality.


These models are pretty close to ur polygon count
Less i think looking closer.... THIS IS WHAT MORPH PUSHING U TO GET TOOO

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/galleries/artwork.php?uid=4899&aw=5548

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/galleries/artwork.php?uid=14143&aw=3580

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/modeling-animation-276/customised-character-theory-131843/

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Actually I do modeling to and he right .... U have 2344 faces and no fingers... For a RPG char that pretty wrong.... I read morpheous feedback and he far harder on me than he is u and he only trying to help.

I think 2300 is too much for this!
(you could have used that much for a detailed face and body, lets say a round 2500 for those would have been good)

That is great feedback because he right 2300 faces is way to high poly for a base mesh that meant to be clothed. Ur armor pieces will prob be 200-500 facew depending on the detail same with most armor pieces... U are look at 5,000 Faces when everything said and done and that Like getting into Gears of War polygon count and I don't see the results... HL2 models are 2000 faces I think... Also lets talk in triangles faces are not triangles and games only read triangles


The fact is he trying to tell u nicely u will prob have to remodel it to give a high quality result.... The fact is it a ok but if u want to get it to look right since u are a perfectionist do it again... If u want harsh cristim than here some

The current model does not have any anatomy for humans. The triceps and biceps are not showing the arms look like a tube. The chest is not defined enough does not show a rib cage or any form of anatomy. The feet look to flat and like he a jelly man. In short remodel him so he does not look like a jelly man. That what he could of said and if anyone disagrees than their full of shit... Look at gladiator he ripped ur guy looks nothing like a normal human but he has enough of a polygon count to.

I mean Sc2 engine can be pushed to creating GoW in it i am not joking U COULD MAKE Gears of War in sc2 and look as good as Gears of War.... It supports Normals/Specs/Emissions MultiLayered textures ect...

Quality wise It coming Along but it very beginner. I am a perfectionist to and I study human anatomy and I plan on only releasing chars that I can say are at least equal to L4D or GoW quality.


These models are pretty close to ur polygon count
Less i think looking closer.... THIS IS WHAT MORPH PUSHING U TO GET TOOO

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/galleries/artwork.php?uid=4899&aw=5548

http://www.gameartisans.org/gamecon/galleries/artwork.php?uid=14143&aw=3580

Let's not forget that faces != polygons when doing comparisons.

But you convinced me. I will try to improve the model a little and if I see it doesn't work right, I will completely start from scratch again (except for the animated biped, which took way more time until now anyways)

Probably I will discard the idea of having multiple attachment heads. Instead, I will attach hair only and use a skinny head.

EDIT: Alright, I am convinced. I will model the whole unit from scratch again.

 

[Triceron]

Zweibe, keep on doin what you're doin. My suggestion is that you could probably get away with a few less edge loops for the arms and legs, but you're on the right track.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Alright, I started from scratch again now and completed the first mesh-front ... I will model out the muscles of the back later.

I think the result is much better than my initial version, especially the leg and arm, which are way more defined now and I didn't even applied the meshsmooth yet.

I'm currently at 291 faces.

 

[Misha]

..slightly on-off topic; soon they're gonna ask for customizable boobs >:/

The previous model did look sweet to me.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

pleaase dont be mad at me please...

i think its a bit better, though i cant really say, because u didnt provide a total front shot of your model, but a perspective one...
also u didnt provide any wireframe of the old one, thats why i cant compare them properly
and u didnt show the wireframe neither >.<
well, thats okay on this one, because of the hard shaded edges!

well, nonetheless, i made a little drawover, i'M sry, my drawing skillz are not worth anything, so it didnt come out as i wanted it to be, but i hope u getthe basic idea!

i have marked some muscle groups and other defining areas in blue, its a little off on your mesh, because i am no good drawer, so think of them a litle more organic and like the counterparts on the blueprint...

in red you can see the overall topology (i.e. edge flow)
depends on what standard u want to achieve!
also his foot looks too small for me!
do u have a side blueprint of this aswell?
is the blueprint a 100% front blueprint or is it in perspektive? because it looks like it, otherwise u couldnt see the shadow, could u?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

well, nonetheless, i made a little drawover, i'M sry, my drawing skillz are not worth anything, so it didnt come out as i wanted it to be, but i hope u getthe basic idea!

i have marked some muscle groups and other defining areas in blue, its a little off on your mesh, because i am no good drawer, so think of them a litle more organic and like the counterparts on the blueprint...

Yeah i'll look into it. All I can say now is that I will add a little bit more detail on the muscle groups as soon as I added the meshsmooth by displacing the vertices a little. I just didn't want to add more detail than necessary to the un-smoothed mesh yet.

About the upper leg part: This is intentional, as the unit is going to have pants (kinda like the old version). That's why the pelvis area looks a little bit less defined.

also his foot looks too small for me!

Hmm ... I meshed them after the blueprint. But it shouldn't be a problem to scale them a little bigger.

do u have a side blueprint of this aswell?
is the blueprint a 100% front blueprint or is it in perspektive? because it looks like it, otherwise u couldnt see the shadow, could u?

Actually, the blueprint you can see in the screenshot is not the "real" blueprint I used. I just used it to create the muscle groups of the arm (my real blueprint has relaxed arms, which makes animating more complicated). My "body" blueprint also has a side view and is not perspective.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

the workflow is:

detail the lowres mesh as much as possible, then go highres...
though meshsmoot h really sucks in my opinion and isnt used by any major studio's workflow!
also, you cant really add this there now, because your edgeloops arent "flowing" at all"

 

[Zwiebelchen]

detail the lowres mesh as much as possible, then go highres...
also, you cant really add this there now, because your edgeloops arent "flowing" at all"

Alright, lets see what I can do to improve it. I think if I add some more cuts here and there, I can go on without the mesh-smoothing.

 

[Triceron]

the workflow is:

detail the lowres mesh as much as possible, then go highres...
though meshsmoot h really sucks in my opinion and isnt used by any major studio's workflow!
also, you cant really add this there now, because your edgeloops arent "flowing" at all"

Proper edgelooping is integral for animation. However, low poly RTS models don't always have polycounts to allow proper edgelooping. There will be areas like the knees and elbows where you can cheat with triangles, but for the most part you do want to space your edges out fairly evenly and get a good flow going.

Details like abs and biceps should not be modelled in except to carry the silhouette. Abs and biceps can be defined through textures and normal maps. Take for example the Ghost model.

Look at the arms of the Ghost. The bicep is completely flat with no definition. Look at the abs, there is no definition modelled in at all. These are achieved by the texture and normal maps.

For low poly RTS-grade models, focus on 2 main things - Silhouette (the outside shape) and making sure you have enough edges around joints for animation purposes. I would suggest taking a look at Blizzard's models (Starcraft 2, WoW) and other low poly humans for reference. I wouldn't advise referring to anything higher than 5000 polies for edge looping reference if your goal is to make a low poly model.

Keep in mind, your character will not be seen very up close to the camera in the SC2 engine, so you should push some features so they show up better. Bigger shoulders, more defined curves, etc.

 

[xXm0RpH3usXx]

i think this model is for rpgs, so you are thinking the wrong way, though i would fully agree with u on an rts model!

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Yes, the model is meant to be a basis for RPG maps. It's "intended" (well, of course, I want to avoid it as much as possible) that this model has a somewhat higher polycount than your average SC2 model.

 

[The World Is Flat]

But assume your adding 5000 - 8000 more polies in attachments.