The State of Mapmaking

[Irudir]

It's really depressing going through this website. I know nothing will ever be like the mapmaking of old, but that doesn't even begin to describe the disappointment of the state of this thing. Apparently, mapmaking now is just an instrument for WoW players to create fanfiction and terrible maps and campaigns. If i look through 30 campaigns, 27 of them will be some stupid larping shit that a WoW player with no gameplay sense has made so he can get sucked off by some idiots in this website.
Do us all a favor, if you have ever touched World of Warcraft, delete your account, uninstall Warcraft 3, and fuck off, your shit stinks.

 

[FeelMyRash]

If you don't like it, don't play it. If you haven't played it, don't criticize it.

If this isn't a joke, please don't insult people who are enjoying what they do and are mostly sharing their work so that other people can have fun.

 

[General Frank]

It's really depressing going through this website. I know nothing will ever be like the mapmaking of old, but that doesn't even begin to describe the disappointment of the state of this thing. Apparently, mapmaking now is just an instrument for WoW players to create fanfiction and terrible maps and campaigns. If i look through 30 campaigns, 27 of them will be some stupid larping shit that a WoW player with no gameplay sense has made so he can get sucked off by some idiots in this website.
Do us all a favor, if you have ever touched World of Warcraft, delete your account, uninstall Warcraft 3, and fuck off, your shit stinks.

Okay, bye.

 

[Panda]

Sometimes things are better left un said my friend. Keep that in mind.

Alot of these "People" you speak of actually put alo,t if not there whole life into these maps and they get amazing reviews so not really sure what the whole deal is here.

Have a nice day.

 

[General Frank]

[...] get amazing reviews [...]

If people are in for just the reviews then they are in the wrong place.

[...] not really sure what the whole deal is here.

Trolling and rage-bait.

 

[Retera]

Do us all a favor, if you have ever touched World of Warcraft, delete your account, uninstall Warcraft 3, and fuck off, your shit stinks.

I felt like I agreed somewhat with your sentiment until this sentence. But I am guilty of making my own life difficult.

In my opinion, it is worth remembering that different people like different things about Warcraft 3. In my case, one of the big fun parts was making custom MDX models. In 2018 when the Reforged was announced, their preview showcase included 3D files that would not fit the MDX format that I had been using for 16 years at that point. This is how I knew that my hobby would be destroyed, or tampered with beyond recognition, for the sake of corporate profits from the moment Reforged was announced. What I did not anticipate is that it would upset other people; I tended to believe back then that I would be alone in wanting something different, and that the masses would want Reforged in the form that was advertised.

So, within about one month of the Reforged announcement, I sat and drafted my "project proposal" design document after having too much to drink. In this document, I recorded my plan to construct a simulacrum of Warcraft III using Hive tools and open source programs so that I could play the game without the influence of the other people who had gone wrong. At the time this was a joke among friends, conceived while intoxicated, and people in online circles I frequented laughed at it.

But, as time progressed, eventually the Patch 1.31 released in the year 2019 prior to the "new news" that Reforged would "dial it back a bit" and such. Even prior to that news, there were things in Patch 1.31 that were map-breaking for people. These were bad APIs and changes pushed into production with very little testing, and that I could see would become a part of the game for years to come despite them being stupid -- redefining what "Warcraft III" is for everyone, with no ability to question how stupid the new changes were, and thus no ability to sit and think about a better game thing.

And I think it was really Patch 1.31 that set me off, and caused me to take my intoxicated pipe dream from 2018 and start trying to actually build it for real. The goal was to "play Warcraft III" using only my own code, so that I could make the rules, including what to exclude and what dumb things to not support.

My mission was successful and has been making continued occasional progress for several years. I have videos of me building a base for 40 minutes at a time, and it looks like playing Warcraft III, but it is not at all it is a game created on the open source LibGDX engine and all of the code was rewritten to set me free.

That work that I did is based on tools and technologies from Hive Workshop, mostly from before the Reforged, that had amassed as a result of all these people doing Warcraft III modding. Their shared knowledge allowed me to play the game without the game, which allows me to ignore everything and everyone that is stupid, if that is what I should choose to do.

...however...

I have, at times, loaded art files and some data from World of Warcraft into that same game engine software, and pretended to play some World of Warcraft on it.
Would you say, then, that I should delete my account and leave the open source attempt at a fan-maintainable version of Warcraft III to rot?

Edit:
So anyway, it's a very difficult time to be a fan of:

• .doo files and doodads not having skins
• The menu system being made with high performance FDF and running fine on your toaster with low hardware specs
• Not having the custom UI apis be dumb parrots of the menu technology without much support (although Tasyen and others on Hive have done miracles for people who decide to use it anyway)
• Not trusting the Reforged updates that break random things that I don't want to think about anymore
• A 2002 RTS game in whose art style WoW models don't fit
• A World Editor that doesn't crash randomly

..etc

The problem I have to be honest is that Frozen Throne map editor is bound by license terms, and perhaps worse is bound to mostly only run on Windows or on WINE and stuff and is closed source, and I'd like an open source one that is more fully featured than HiveWE (although HiveWE seems to be trending better). Rather than complaining, will you help us build an open source world editor that we can keep working? Then we can foster a community of like-minded individuals who enjoy Warcraft III, instead of only the WoW sycophants who love Reforged having their way.

 

[General Frank]

I felt like I agreed somewhat with your sentiment until this sentence. But I am guilty of making my own life difficult.

In my opinion, it is worth remembering that different people like different things about Warcraft 3. In my case, one of the big fun parts was making custom MDX models. In 2018 when the Reforged was announced, their preview showcase included 3D files that would not fit the MDX format that I had been using for 16 years at that point. This is how I knew that my hobby would be destroyed, or tampered with beyond recognition, for the sake of corporate profits from the moment Reforged was announced. What I did not anticipate is that it would upset other people; I tended to believe back then that I would be alone in wanting something different, and that the masses would want Reforged in the form that was advertised.

So, within about one month of the Reforged announcement, I sat and drafted my "project proposal" design document after having too much to drink. In this document, I recorded my plan to construct a simulacrum of Warcraft III using Hive tools and open source programs so that I could play the game without the influence of the other people who had gone wrong. At the time this was a joke among friends, conceived while intoxicated, and people in online circles I frequented laughed at it.

But, as time progressed, eventually the Patch 1.31 released in the year 2019 prior to the "new news" that Reforged would "dial it back a bit" and such. Even prior to that news, there were things in Patch 1.31 that were map-breaking for people. These were bad APIs and changes pushed into production with very little testing, and that I could see would become a part of the game for years to come despite them being stupid -- redefining what "Warcraft III" is for everyone, with no ability to question how stupid the new changes were, and thus no ability to sit and think about a better game thing.

And I think it was really Patch 1.31 that set me off, and caused me to take my intoxicated pipe dream from 2018 and start trying to actually build it for real. The goal was to "play Warcraft III" using only my own code, so that I could make the rules, including what to exclude and what dumb things to not support.

My mission was successful and has been making continued occasional progress for several years. I have videos of me building a base for 40 minutes at a time, and it looks like playing Warcraft III, but it is not at all it is a game created on the open source LibGDX engine and all of the code was rewritten to set me free.

That work that I did is based on tools and technologies from Hive Workshop, mostly from before the Reforged, that had amassed as a result of all these people doing Warcraft III modding. Their shared knowledge allowed me to play the game without the game, which allows me to ignore everything and everyone that is stupid, if that is what I should choose to do.

...however...

I have, at times, loaded art files and some data from World of Warcraft into that same game engine software, and pretended to play some World of Warcraft on it.
Would you say, then, that I should delete my account and leave the open source attempt at a fan-maintainable version of Warcraft III to rot?

Edit:
So anyway, it's a very difficult time to be a fan of:

• .doo files and doodads not having skins
• The menu system being made with high performance FDF and running fine on your toaster with low hardware specs
• Not having the custom UI apis be dumb parrots of the menu technology without much support (although Tasyen and others on Hive have done miracles for people who decide to use it anyway)
• Not trusting the Reforged updates that break random things that I don't want to think about anymore
• A 2002 RTS game in whose art style WoW models don't fit
• A World Editor that doesn't crash randomly

..etc

The problem I have to be honest is that Frozen Throne map editor is bound by license terms, and perhaps worse is bound to mostly only run on Windows or on WINE and stuff and is closed source, and I'd like an open source one that is more fully featured than HiveWE (although HiveWE seems to be trending better). Rather than complaining, will you help us build an open source world editor that we can keep working? Then we can foster a community of like-minded individuals who enjoy Warcraft III, instead of only the WoW sycophants who love Reforged having their way.

How do you manage to derail every thread you reply to?

 

[Retera]

How do you manage to derail

I felt it was on topic, if it is not, maybe throw me some messages outside this thread about what would be more on topic.

On the topic of: the state of mapmaking and in particular the OP's feeling that

It's really depressing going through this website. I know nothing will ever be like the mapmaking of old

... I then shared for me how I can sometimes feel "nothing will ever be like the mapmaking of old" and how I tried to combat this, and how for me it was sometimes "depressing" (although I do not consider myself a totally depressed person, but maybe my internet personality is depressed by how Reforged could have been better, to the extent it is a character I play online)

 

[Uncle]

You can play the "it was better back then" game about anything in your life. There's often some truth to that claim - in this case we all see the rise of corporate greed and what could have been (Reforged). Entertainment in general seems worse, as the technology pushes us towards isolation and a digital "you own nothing" AI-fueled nightmare.

However, there's also this delusion people have that something is meant to last forever. Or that you're somehow going to enjoy something forever. Even the closest lovers grow estranged, so what chance does some game from your childhood have? Why as a grown man would you even want something like that? I'm not suggesting you drop this hobby for good, but you should detach yourself from it and redirect your attention to something more important in your life. Especially something you actually have control over.

Also, it's the mind of a spoiled consumer to get upset when what's ASSUMED to be an endless supply of quality entertainment stops. Nobody owes you high quality entertainment, that's something that is created by talented individuals, people perhaps like yourself. Clearly you know what makes a map good by your strong opinions on how bad things are, so show us how it's done and lead by example.

Long story short, an adult shouldn't be this emotionally invested in some game from his childhood. Especially a consumer who ultimately contributes nothing but expects something in return.

 

[Retera]

Also, it's the mind of a spoiled consumer to get upset when what's ASSUMED to be an endless supply of quality entertainment stops.

It's good to have a well-reasoned perspective that isn't solely reflected of our echo chamber, but I'm a bit sad by how much you're willing to ditch the deeper discussion of ownership here.

When I was young, there were plastic toys or sometimes even physical board games that lasted 30-50 years that the older generation of grandparents had at their home for kids to play with. Sometimes these objects would come out from the attic and my parents, aunts, uncles, or whoever would see the kids in my generation playing with those toys and say, "Ohh, I always liked that toy, I played with that when I was your age."

You're not wrong that everything always changes. There aren't too many toys left from Roman times, or from the Medieval era, because most physical objects in our world have ecological turnover and the forever chemicals that don't have ecological turnover are actually silent planetary nightmares in waiting.

However, having expressed my agreement with the general spirit of what you were saying, I'd like to now say my piece (and maybe you'll tell me this comes from our echo chamber and is somehow incorrect).

in this case we all see the rise of corporate greed and what could have been (Reforged).

When I read the post from OP, to me I read this as a frustration not with "what could have been" on the Reforged, which might be another discussion entirely, but with the loss of what Hive Workshop actually was from 2016 when Activision's focus came back to this game until 2020 at the release of Reforged.

The notable difference here is that

Also, it's the mind of a spoiled consumer to get upset when what's ASSUMED to be an endless supply of quality entertainment stops. Nobody owes you high quality entertainment

... to me this message completely ignores the point of ownership and Warcraft III. I maintain the belief that one of the biggest gripes with average "consumers" on Warcraft III was not that Reforged was less than their expectations, but for those of us that have remained interested in this space... it's that Reforged deleted its predecessor. For those humans who perceive the Reforged and the Frozen Throne to be separate game technologies, it is then their perception that their purchased property was taken from them.

And I think that's where the opinion you're espousing takes a bit of a dark turn of supporting the corporate line. "The industry standard is for all games to be live services, so what's wrong with a company deleting an old CD based game off of your computer and declaring that it's a different product now and is a live service?" You didn't literally say this quote, but isn't it implied by your stated opinions?

Apparently, mapmaking now is just an instrument for WoW players to create fanfiction and terrible maps and campaigns.

I'm not much of a solo campaign player so I didn't point my focus into this same area to encounter the same frustration, but I very much am not surprised at the thought that the people who stick around after the issues I mentioned above.... would tend towards WoW ones who don't care.

And that's very interesting, I think I easily share some of the same sentiment, about what is missed (and I don't mean "what could have been" on Reforged, but rather the people here on Hive). Is that an echo chamber effect in my head or is that real?

 

[Uncle]

I admit I steered a bit away from what OP was talking about. I don't really know what Hive was like in 2016 and I've never played a custom campaign before. But there's a lot of great resources being uploaded every day and new people are constantly showing up in the WEHZ to learn how to create their very first trigger - so the spirit of modding seems alive and well.

I'm mostly upset with gamers in general. I feel like there's a lot of should-be developers out there who are stuck in "consumer mode" when they could be creating this stuff themselves, especially when they feel so strongly about it that they'll say, "fuck off, your shit stinks". What I meant by "nobody owes you high quality entertainment" is in regards to the sense of entitlement some have. People seem to think that a sequel is a given or that they're owed one, which to me is antithetical to the creative process. That mindset produces bad games. A game is often deemed "dead" or "abandoned" because it hasn't had a sequel in a while, which is a ridiculous notion that reduces games down to a product on some conveyor belt that's meant to be mass produced. I want to look back on a great legacy and not see it stained by 100 uninspired, cash grab sequels.

In regards to OP, they're unhappy with the state of campaigns, overlooking how awesome it is that people are still making them 20+ years later. They're also overlooking the fact that they're probably just tired of this game in general, hence why I suggested they detach themselves from it. The campaigns could be "worse" now, but even if they were better I doubt it'll ever hit the same as when they were younger and things were fresh and exciting.

 

[n00b]

It's really depressing going through this website. I know nothing will ever be like the mapmaking of old, but that doesn't even begin to describe the disappointment of the state of this thing. Apparently, mapmaking now is just an instrument for WoW players to create fanfiction and terrible maps and campaigns. If i look through 30 campaigns, 27 of them will be some stupid larping shit that a WoW player with no gameplay sense has made so he can get sucked off by some idiots in this website.
Do us all a favor, if you have ever touched World of Warcraft, delete your account, uninstall Warcraft 3, and fuck off, your shit stinks.

didn't ask

 

[Barbafire]

I'm mostly upset with gamers in general. I feel like there's a lot of should-be developers out there who are stuck in "consumer mode" when they could be creating this stuff themselves

I’d like to say that I am one of these gamers, and it was you that turned the key in my mind Uncle.

I don’t know if you remember me or what have you done, but making a quick refresh here, you brought an entire arena system for my project, years ago. For me, it was a vote of confidence that I’d make a new map for Warcraft, and don’t waste your time.

---

When I decided to cross the player’s line and enter the field of development, it was just me, my love for the game, and an objective: Improve my Game Design skills.

Three years ago if I’m not wrong, I decided to create AND finish a project inside the world editor. So, I consider myself brand new in this community. Uncle’s confidence vote gave me what I was missing to stop consuming and start creating. I aim to work with games nowadays, creating or improving things that I think they could be better.

So, maybe, people are just missing an objective, a point, a mission. I’m just a bit older than Warcraft III, so why I choose it as a design laboratory, more than 20 years later? Objective. I have an objective that I can complete it faster with Warcraft. And after it, I don’t expect to stop developing. Outerworld Arena has an objective, but my next project here (without name, but I’m already validating mechanics) will be totally for fun.

At the golden age of mods, I was young and I loved spending the whole day playing the various mods. But today, I enjoy more creating experiences for other players than playing.

A little introspection never hurt anyone.

 

[raypack]

What I agree with is that, in my opinion, the custom campaigns made that are based on WoW (anything past WC3 really) are campaigns that I do not enjoy at all...
WoW has always sucked for me, big time. That is the reason why I do not find much pleasure in playing those campaigns.

Slightly off topic but another thing I dislike is map makers using custom models for absolutely every single unit and even doodads in their campaigns...

 

[Retera]

There was a time in my life I believed using a custom model for every single unit was a sign of skill, like trying to equal the original developers in terms of creative capability.

That said, someone once said that an idiot admires complexity while a bright person admires simplicity. Maybe as I got older, I started to respect more maps made efficiently with existing game art that were still amazing fun.

 

[Homor]

There are tons of talented people still making great maps and I think it's a huge disservice to them to discount all the great work they've done.

You should save that ire for the greedy and uncaring executives in charge of Blizzard who are devoting zero time or resources into improving the janky state of the game in any meaningful way. The fans are doing an exceptional job at keeping the game alive and enjoyable, given the perilous circumstances.

Your attitude is like if someone made a perfect 1-1 recreation of the Mona Lisa in MsPaint and you complained that the Mona Lisa was a "boring" painting.

 

[Goldfinger]

Most likely a troll thread, but you could just avoid playing these maps that clearly don't match your strange and specific expectations instead of complaining about them. Wild and extremist idea, right?

 

[khopesh]

There was a time in my life I believed using a custom model for every single unit was a sign of skill, like trying to equal the original developers in terms of creative capability.

That said, someone once said that an idiot admires complexity while a bright person admires simplicity. Maybe as I got older, I started to respect more maps made efficiently with existing game art that were still amazing fun.

It's one way of looking at it. Rather than creating a good project free of minor errors (that don't impede its overall functionality) or improving its efficiency beyond the parameters discernible to the end user, the best approach as a developer/creator would be to complete it in the shortest possible time, even if it means skipping some details/steps because anyone with enough time can create a great project; unlike how the end user see it, prioritizing quality. These are two perspectives to consider.

 

[Homor]

It's one way of looking at it. Rather than creating a good project free of minor errors (that don't impede its overall functionality) or improving its efficiency beyond the parameters discernible to the end user, the best approach as a developer/creator would be to complete it in the shortest possible time, even if it means skipping some details/steps because anyone with enough time can create a great project; unlike how the end user see it, prioritizing quality. These are two perspectives to consider.

For me, it's all about knowing where to properly allocate time and resources. Really nicely polished details are impressive but if they get in the way of better changes that can be made elsewhere they're counterproductive. Like how the original version Duke Nukem Forever had lots of (for the time) really impressive set pieces and minigames that you only ever see once or twice. They seem cool until you realize they sucked up precious resources that could have been better spent actually finishing the game and getting into a playable state in less than 12 years.

Modern Blizzard seems to have worked out a really clever solution: allocate no time or resources to anything!