The Old Gods Dilema

[Razosh]

For a long time now there has been a debate of how many Old Gods are out there because the actual number is difficult to predict. The main argument against there being 5 or more Old Gods on Azeroth has been the book the Sundering where the Dragon Aspects state that there are 3 remaining Old Gods. Who are these three? I thought it was C'Thun, Yogg-Saron and N'Zoth while Y'Shaarj was not referenced as he is dead. I first now realize how blind I've been as the Dragon Aspects couldn't possibly have referenced C'Thun. The reason is that the book the Sundering took place prior to the War of the Shifting Sands. In other words the Dragon Aspects would still at this point believe that C'Thun was dead as C'Thun faked his death up until it had the army to assault Azeroth. In other words what has been used as an argument against there being five Old Gods has actually been one of its greatest supporters.

The Question that needs to be answered now is obviously where would this Old God be located? There have been different speculations one being that it's in northern Kalimdor as you can find the skull of a Faceless One at the Master's Glaive. Additionally Aku'mai is a servant of the Old Gods located in Blackfathom Deeps along with a few other Faceless ones found in Darkshore.

A second theory is that it would be located in Stranglethorn Vale as the Cataclysm revealed a 150 000 year old relic that is related to the Old Gods. This content bares resemblance to Saronite but is confirmed not to be the same material. Stranglethorn is to far away from the home of Yogg-Saron and C'Thun to logically be their relics and it's far inland so it's not likely to be of N'Zoth. Additionally had it been Y'Shaarj's relic we would probably have seen some indication that this could have been its work. Additionally Yogg-Saron is the only one of the known Old Gods who leaves a Saronite like material so it's the only one of them who could actually be responsible for this artifact. Yogg-Saron is also the Old God located the furthest away from this location which means that he is the least likely to have left it.

The third possibility is that the Old God is located in some undiscovered place such as an island in the Great Sea or in the Veiled Sea. I personally believe that it would be located either in Stranglethorn Vale or one of the islands in the Southern Sea that used to be connected to Stranglethorn. Please post what you believe if you agree with me or if I'm the most arrogant idiot who has ever walked the face of the Earth.

 

[Zaramorus]

Well this is how i know Old Gods are located:
C'Thun: Ahn'Qiraji
Yogg'Saron: Storm Peaks
Y'Shaarj: Vale of Eternal Blossoms
N'Zoth: Since he made the naga i think that he is somewhere deep in the sea
Fifth Old God: He is the only one that we know nothing about yet, but if C'Thun is in Kalimdor, Yogg'Saron in Northrend, Y'Shaarj in Pandaria and N'Zoth in the seas then it pretty much leaves us with the fifth Old God being somewhere in Eastern Kingdoms.

 

[Razosh]

C'Thun is in Kalimdor, Yogg'Saron in Northrend, Y'Shaarj in Pandaria and N'Zoth in the seas then it pretty much leaves us with the fifth Old God being somewhere in Eastern Kingdoms.

Not necessarily as they were imprisoned prior to the Sundering so those strategic location wouldn't exist back in those days.

 

[Zaramorus]

Well yeah, but seeing that every Old God is really far away from each other then the fifth one should be in the Eastern Kingdoms. Im guessing they were put into prisons in the star or something shape.

 

[Razosh]

Actually if you go by this map then Blackfathom Deeps would actually be further from Tanaris and Ulduar than Stranglethorn Vale and Northern Eastern Kingdoms. And those are the most common claims of a location but I guess central Eastern Kingdoms such as Uldaman or somewhere near there would be the best geographical spot though I'd like to see anything indicating there'd be an Old God there.

Uldaman is the only logical possibility though that assumption would be based purely on the fact that big chunks of the former city is unexplored. And is underground where the Old Gods where rumored to be imprisoned. The city was a titan construct so it's possible. Other than that the only hint is this dungeon journal.

"The Obsidian Sentinel was responsible for guarding Uldaman's secrets until it was affected by corruption by an unknown force. Originally crafted from the same stone as the halls of Uldaman itself, this keeper has had the majority of its body replaced with dark glass capable of reflecting spells. Whatever was responsible for the Obsidian Sentinel's transformation must be incredibly potent, for it is not easy to alter the enchanted stone of a titan construct."

It might also be worth noting that they did do research there related to the Old Gods and why would they do that there instead of at Ahn'Qiraj where they actually had the believed to be husk of an Old God unless they also had an Old God in Uldaman at least for a period of time. I must admit it's not a bad choice.

 

[Duke]

Isn't of them supposed to be under the tirisfal glades?

 

[Razosh]

There is no Old God beneath the Whispering Forest or any other part of Tirisfal Glades as confirmed by Blizzard.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5208785474

 

[Zaramorus]

Isn't of them supposed to be under the tirisfal glades?

Well Tirisfal Glades thing is kinda like Bael Modan. There is something dark and powerful beneath those places, but i doubt its an Old God since if Old God would be beneath one of those places then either the Forsaken in Tirisfal Glades would go crazy or the dwarfes in Bael Modan so my guessing is that there is something beneath those places, but something lesser than and Old God. Maybe just an artifact that "lives" like Frostmourne.

 

[Heinvers]

Isn't of them supposed to be under the tirisfal glades?

Kinda reviving this topic on limit.

Nah, that was just a silly rumor spread among wow gamers.
There could be some kind of servant to them. Maybe, maybe not.

So no old god-octopus in Whispering Forest

I kinda expect N'zoth to show his ass in time after regaining his forces or rather amassing followers for his yet to be revealed agenda.

 

[Razosh]

Sadly N'Zoth and its minions cant come until Azshara has fully potty trained N'Zoth. Silly? Yes but still a better response than we've gotten from Blizzard.

 

[Heinvers]

Sadly N'Zoth and its minions cant come until Azshara has fully potty trained N'Zoth. Silly? Yes but still a better response than we've gotten from Blizzard.

Say what? o.@

I call that blasphemy! Where are thou Blizzard when we need you?

I bet that Azshara's having a good laugh seeing both the Legion halted (for now), Azeroth slightly crippled by a deranged silly Drake (yeah, called him like that because he was unstable from the beginning) and 'fucked' by some dead not long ago.

Oh, good times indeed.

That would be embarrassing for an Old God, even for a servant but eh.
He'd use the Naga till' he's had their(Naga an co.) service 'suspended' due to end term agreement stuff.

Loving to use the Domino pieces to their full potential.
Toying all day I say.

 

[Razosh]

The Old Gods have shown before that they don't fear the legion or Sargeras, maybe they are waiting for the Legion to attack. Then they strike when the iron is hot and kill two birds with one rock. Wrathion did say the legion would strike first and then the nagas would rise from the sea.

 

[Zaramorus]

The Old Gods have shown before that they don't fear the legion or Sargeras, maybe they are waiting for the Legion to attack. Then they strike when the iron is hot and kill two birds with one rock. Wrathion did say the legion would strike first and then the nagas would rise from the sea.

You sure they would wait for Legion to attack first? Cause then they should have let Deathwing and Ragnaros wait. Deathwing would have been a great weapon against Azeroth that has been weakened by the Legion, but i guess Deathwing was impatient or Old Gods were too impatient and thought Deathwing cannot be killed. But the most obvious reason would be that it was made so cause obviously if Deathwing would have caused Hour of Twilight then its pretty much game over too.

 

[Razosh]

You sure they would wait for Legion to attack first? Cause then they should have let Deathwing and Ragnaros wait. Deathwing would have been a great weapon against Azeroth that has been weakened by the Legion, but i guess Deathwing was impatient or Old Gods were too impatient and thought Deathwing cannot be killed. But the most obvious reason would be that it was made so cause obviously if Deathwing would have caused Hour of Twilight then its pretty much game over too.

You're forgetting that even though Deathwing serves the Old Gods end goal he often act against their interest or don't you remember what happened in the well of eternity instance? As for the elemental lords they havent been very loyal to the Old Gods as of late and maybe Ragnaros isn't as loyal as you think.

 

[Heinvers]

You're forgetting that even though Deathwing serves the Old Gods end goal he often act against their interest or don't you remember what happened in the well of eternity instance? As for the elemental lords they havent been very loyal to the Old Gods as of late and maybe Ragnaros isn't as loyal as you think.

Hello there.

Yeah, the Black was indeed manipulated by The Octopus Guys but he was well aware of that.
He just liked the idea of finally having power over the rest of his kind (all dragonflights) even if it meant siding with them (at least for the time being).
The Cataclysm took place (it's my own view so you're free to challenge it if you'd like) because of his very own desire for revenge against (mainly Alextrasza but eh) his kind and secondly against those pesky humans that foiled his plans back in the Second lil' War (ikr).

Lust for power can do much to a person.

~~~

Anyway, these tentacle guys just love the idea of deceiving the good old demon pals into thinking that they have the upper hand.
Oh boy, that tells a lot about how insidious they can be and resourceful.
Yogg'Saron just proved it, heh (I think I spelled it correctly this time).

Heavens have mercy when those guys start that war against the good guys.
Better have your ticket to another planet when that's unfolding.

 

[Razosh]

If you think that makes them insidious just remember that they're the reason behind the curroption of Sargeras. And it's Yogg-Saron.

 

[Zaramorus]

What also confuses me alot is that who made Demons and the Void? Demons existed long before Sargerases corruption, but its confusing if Demons and the Void were made by Old Gods or they somehow were made by nature.

 

[Razosh]

Nozdormu states that everything that's bad originates from the Old Gods. I therefor assume they're the source. Would it really be surprising though that demons were created by the Old Gods? We know there's at least five on Azeroth and one on Draenor there could be Old Gods on several other planets that could have transformed the races of those planets into the monstrosities we know as demons.

 

[Zaramorus]

Well if Old Gods turned other planets inhabitants into monsters then i guess the Void creatures are made of Naarus that arent as powerful as the Naarus that we already know. Weird tho then if Demons were made by Old Gods, but dont serve them. So im guessing Sargeras either manipulated Demons into his Legion or that releasing the demons made them just gladly join Sargeras.

 

[Razosh]

Giving Sargeras controll of the demons might have been their grand scheme they did after all corrupt Sargeras. Who knows how the Old Gods are going to play their cards.

 

[Xonok]

What if Sargeras isn't actually evil, but rather has been trying to eradicate the old gods for a long time now?
Over the top? Sure, but considering the power of the old gods, the humanoid races may as well be a tiny speck of good on the massive evil that the old gods and their kin are. It would explain everything from why Azeroth draws in evil(demons, the original orcs), corrupts powerful people(Ner'zhul, Neltharion, the ancient elves, *insert countless others here*) and why Sargeras is hell-bent on attacking this place. By that theory, it could as well be that Sargeras is manipulating the demons to attack Azeroth in hopes that 2 massive sources of evil would weaken each other enough for him to clear up both.
#conspiracy

 

[Zaramorus]

What if Sargeras isn't actually evil, but rather has been trying to eradicate the old gods for a long time now?
Over the top? Sure, but considering the power of the old gods, the humanoid races may as well be a tiny speck of good on the massive evil that the old gods and their kin are. It would explain everything from why Azeroth draws in evil(demons, the original orcs), corrupts powerful people(Ner'zhul, Neltharion, the ancient elves, *insert countless others here*) and why Sargeras is hell-bent on attacking this place. By that theory, it could as well be that Sargeras is manipulating the demons to attack Azeroth in hopes that 2 massive sources of evil would weaken each other enough for him to clear up both.
#conspiracy

Well that could be possible, but i doubt it since Sargeras wants to end all life in the universe not just defeat the Old Gods.

 

[Xonok]

Saying that Sargeras wants to end all life was in the context of Azeroth though. It was originally said in the context of Azeroth to justify portraying him as the ultimate evil.
Well, the reason why all this is unlikely is not because of ingame logic. Rather, it's because the writers weren't trying to create some high-level conspiracies. The warcraft series has always been simplistic in the larger scale.

 

[Razosh]

Sargeras is as far as I belive 100% a pawn of the Old Gods and they seek chaos and death so no I don't think Sargeras believe himself to be a good guy. At most he might believe he's doing what he thinks is necessary.

 

[chr2]

Sargeras is as far as I belive 100% a pawn of the Old Gods and they seek chaos and death so no I don't think Sargeras believe himself to be a good guy. At most he might believe he's doing what he thinks is necessary.

Is there actually any proof at all that Sargeras was corrupted by the Old Gods? According to the official WoW Magazine, it was stated that Sargeras was corrupted after fighting the Nathrezim and other major demonic races. There's no mention there, or anywhere else as far as I could tell, of the Old Gods having influenced him in the slightest.

 

[Razosh]

Is there actually any proof at all that Sargeras was corrupted by the Old Gods? According to the official WoW Magazine, it was stated that Sargeras was corrupted after fighting the Nathrezim and other major demonic races. There's no mention there, or anywhere else as far as I could tell, of the Old Gods having influenced him in the slightest.

In Thrall Twilight of the Aspects Nozdormu states that, the madness of Deathwing, Malygos, Blackmoore, the twilight dragon flight and all ill that the aspects have ever had to deal with originated from the Old Gods. Last time I checked they've also had to deal with the Burning Legion so unless you want to redefine the meaning of the word all then yes they were behind the corruption of Sargeras.

You'd be surprised by how many things originates from the Old Gods they were responsible for the first deception, murder and warfare in Tauren history. They persuaded Neltharion to create the demon soul. They are a force of unprecedented power that tramples even that of a pantheon and they have been proven to live on multiple planets. Some say that the Old God that the Arakkoa attempted to resurrect was C'Thun but who really believes that? Korialstrasz one of the most powerful red dragons in recorded history stated that it would deminish him of all power to summon a human half way across Azeroth. Yet we are to believe a handful of Arakkoa could transport an OLD GOD thousands of light years assuming the two planets are even in the same galaxy or even the same local supercluster? I call bullshit on that theory.

 

[chr2]

In Thrall Twilight of the Aspects Nozdormu states that, the madness of Deathwing, Malygos, Blackmoore, the twilight dragon flight and all ill that the aspects have ever had to deal with originated from the Old Gods. Last time I checked they've also had to deal with the Burning Legion so unless you want to redefine the meaning of the word all then yes they were behind the corruption of Sargeras.

You'd be surprised by how many things originates from the Old Gods they were responsible for the first deception, murder and warfare in Tauren history. They persuaded Neltharion to create the demon soul. They are a force of unprecedented power that tramples even that of a pantheon and they have been proven to live on multiple planets. Some say that the Old God that the Arakkoa attempted to resurrect was C'Thun but who really believes that? Korialstrasz one of the most powerful red dragons in recorded history stated that it would deminish him of all power to summon a human half way across Azeroth. Yet we are to believe a handful of Arakkoa could transport an OLD GOD thousands of light years assuming the two planets are even in the same galaxy or even the same local supercluster? I call bullshit on that theory.

I think you're reading too much into that. Yes, all evil originating from Azeroth might've been created by the Old Gods, but Nozdormu is not all-knowing; He is a guardian of Azeroth, and so far there has been no evidence that his knowledge and powers reach further than that (and why should they? His purpose was to protect Azeroth, and nothing else), even IF Sargeras was influenced by the Old Gods (and that's a huge if!), there is no way Nozdormu would know that.

Now, don't get me wrong, I certainly don't doubt that Old Gods exist outside of Azeroth. After all, they span the universe, as countless as the stars! And the Old God being summoned by the arakkoa definitely is not C'thun, but unless directly stated by Blizzard or somewhere in the lore, I won't believe that they are behind the Legion.

 

[Razosh]

I think you're reading too much into that. Yes, all evil originating from Azeroth might've been created by the Old Gods, but Nozdormu is not all-knowing; He is a guardian of Azeroth, and so far there has been no evidence that his knowledge and powers reach further than that (and why should they? His purpose was to protect Azeroth, and nothing else), even IF Sargeras was influenced by the Old Gods (and that's a huge if!), there is no way Nozdormu would know that.

Now, don't get me wrong, I certainly don't doubt that Old Gods exist outside of Azeroth. After all, they span the universe, as countless as the stars! And the Old God being summoned by the arakkoa definitely is not C'thun, but unless directly stated by Blizzard or somewhere in the lore, I won't believe that they are behind the Legion.

We are of two different mindsets it seems. The Old Gods are undeniably cunning and they do want to summon Sargeras to Azeroth. My guess is that they have a grander scheme as the Old Gods never struck me as gamblers.

C'Thun faked his own death and remained hidden for years beyond counting. Yogg-Saron didn't simply lash out at everything but manipulated the citizens of Ulduar. N'Zoth was never defeated but has lurked in the dark waters since before the time of Galakrond. What this proves is that all of the Old Gods are patient and intelligent. this means that they're certain that they can either defeat or control Sargeras even in their weak state. And since we as players can defeat the Old Gods while they're weak I doubt they could combat Sargeras at least as long as they're chained. Another reason I think they can manipulate him is because Korialstrasz himself said that if the Old Gods ever truly came back even Sargeras would pray for a swift death and Korialstrasz was present in the War of the Ancient and is one of those who were closest to Sargeras and could probably feel his presence through the portal. As a result his word is the most solid scale we have to go base our theories on.

The point of this story is that you either need to believe that the Old Gods can control Sargeras or that they are fools. And that they would be fools seem to contradict anything we've seen so far.

 

[Heinvers]

Yet we are to believe a handful of Arakkoa could transport an OLD GOD thousands of light years assuming the two planets are even in the same galaxy or even the same local supercluster? I call bullshit on that theory.

1

 

[Razosh]

1

Hahaha, pretty much sums it up.

 

[chr2]

We are of two different mindsets it seems. The Old Gods are undeniably cunning and they do want to summon Sargeras to Azeroth. My guess is that they have a grander scheme as the Old Gods never struck me as gamblers.

C'Thun faked his own death and remained hidden for years beyond counting. Yogg-Saron didn't simply lash out at everything but manipulated the citizens of Ulduar. N'Zoth was never defeated but has lurked in the dark waters since before the time of Galakrond. What this proves is that all of the Old Gods are patient and intelligent. this means that they're certain that they can either defeat or control Sargeras even in their weak state. And since we as players can defeat the Old Gods while they're weak I doubt they could combat Sargeras at least as long as they're chained. Another reason I think they can manipulate him is because Korialstrasz himself said that if the Old Gods ever truly came back even Sargeras would pray for a swift death and Korialstrasz was present in the War of the Ancient and is one of those who were closest to Sargeras and could probably feel his presence through the portal. As a result his word is the most solid scale we have to go base our theories on.

The point of this story is that you either need to believe that the Old Gods can control Sargeras or that they are fools. And that they would be fools seem to contradict anything we've seen so far.

Okay, so I did a bit of reading up on this; From what I understand, the Old Gods only wanted to summon Sargeras through the portal in WotA so they could revert the power from the ritual to freeing themselves - whether this would also result in Sargeras entering Azeroth I don't know, but it shouldn't matter as Sargeras wouldn't stand a chance against the freed Old Gods (I haven't actually read the books, so I'm not entirely sure about any of this).

Also, there are a number of other reasons why I find it hard to believe that the Legion and the Old Gods' forces are affiliated:
1. The Old Gods have led a number of Legion agents away from their original masters; Xavius and his satyr, Azshara and the would-be naga. Now, you might argue that all of these had already been discarded by the Legion, but then I raise you this - Cho'gall and his Twilight's Hammer clan were a clan of warlocks, and devout followers of the Legion, until Cho'gall heard another calling.
2. When Garrosh became corrupted by Y'shaarj he slaughtered all the Warlocks (or demon-worshippers as he called them) of Orgrimmar, including Neeru Fireblade, an agent of the Legion-affiliated Burning Blade clan. His hatred of the Legion did not in any way subside - if anything it was enhanced.
3. The Infinite Dragonflight - the result of Nozdormu's flight driven mad by the Hour of Twilight, and agents of the Old Gods - have on multiple occasions attempted to thwart the efforts of the Burning Legion.
4. a quote by Harbinger Skyriss: "It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!"
5. and this one beats all the other reasons: Before being imprisoned by the Titans, the Old Gods warred against one another. Presumably, the only reason thy would currently work together is because their combined efforts have a higher chance of resulting in their freedom. The Old Gods were only able to corrupt as powerful a being as Deathwing because of his connection to the earth where they are imprisoned, and it took eons to take hold (otherwise what would have stopped them from corrupting the other Aspects as well?). Sargeras is much more powerful than Deathwing, and has never even set foot on Azeroth, so if he was somehow corrupted by Old Gods, it would not be the ones of Azeroth. Why should any other Old Gods work towards the release of the ones on Azeroth when we know that Old Gods do not necessarily get along with one another?

 

[Razosh]

Okay, so I did a bit of reading up on this; From what I understand, the Old Gods only wanted to summon Sargeras through the portal in WotA so they could revert the power from the ritual to freeing themselves - whether this would also result in Sargeras entering Azeroth I don't know, but it shouldn't matter as Sargeras wouldn't stand a chance against the freed Old Gods (I haven't actually read the books, so I'm not entirely sure about any of this).

Also, there are a number of other reasons why I find it hard to believe that the Legion and the Old Gods' forces are affiliated:
1. The Old Gods have led a number of Legion agents away from their original masters; Xavius and his satyr, Azshara and the would-be naga. Now, you might argue that all of these had already been discarded by the Legion, but then I raise you this - Cho'gall and his Twilight's Hammer clan were a clan of warlocks, and devout followers of the Legion, until Cho'gall heard another calling.
2. When Garrosh became corrupted by Y'shaarj he slaughtered all the Warlocks (or demon-worshippers as he called them) of Orgrimmar, including Neeru Fireblade, an agent of the Legion-affiliated Burning Blade clan. His hatred of the Legion did not in any way subside - if anything it was enhanced.
3. The Infinite Dragonflight - the result of Nozdormu's flight driven mad by the Hour of Twilight, and agents of the Old Gods - have on multiple occasions attempted to thwart the efforts of the Burning Legion.
4. a quote by Harbinger Skyriss: "It is a small matter to control the mind of the weak... for I bear allegiance to powers untouched by time, unmoved by fate. No force on this world or beyond harbors the strength to bend our knee... not even the mighty Legion!"
5. and this one beats all the other reasons: Before being imprisoned by the Titans, the Old Gods warred against one another. Presumably, the only reason thy would currently work together is because their combined efforts have a higher chance of resulting in their freedom. The Old Gods were only able to corrupt as powerful a being as Deathwing because of his connection to the earth where they are imprisoned, and it took eons to take hold (otherwise what would have stopped them from corrupting the other Aspects as well?). Sargeras is much more powerful than Deathwing, and has never even set foot on Azeroth, so if he was somehow corrupted by Old Gods, it would not be the ones of Azeroth. Why should any other Old Gods work towards the release of the ones on Azeroth when we know that Old Gods do not necessarily get along with one another?

The problem with them only summoning Sargeras to free themselves and then hoping they could defeat him is that they would still be weak even after getting out. The story doesn't work like the game you don't just eat a piece of cheese in order to heal a flesh wound. It would take them years, decades, centuries or maybe even longer than that to recuperate for all we know. If their only plan was to regenerate than they would do so even better in their current locations. You might say that Yogg-Saron would have had problems regenerating his strength as he was in a prison but C'Thun was in a research facility and N'Zoth was never imprisoned. Yet to this day N'Zoth hasn't fully regenerated his health and he has been free for probably tens of thousands of years.

1. They turned Cho'Gall to directly serve them as Sargeras like Deathwing probably only shared their end goal and not actually their coarse of action. Therefor it's logical that they turned Cho'Gall so he could resurrect C'Thun.

2. Once again like Deathwing and the Lich King (as seen in Yogg-Saron's visions) they both served the Old Gods end goal yet took very different paths. Not to mention that through the Lich King they carried out the summoning of the Burning Legion a second time. What we have here is a select group of individuals acting out against the Burning Legion and not the big masses.

3. Yet they failed every time, what they achieved instead was chaos and infighting amongst the Bronze Dragonflight. What they accomplished left Nozdormu, one of the biggest opponents to the Old Gods there is to become emotionally crippled. Think about it Blackmoore was proven to be under the corruption of the Old Gods yet the Infinite Dragonflight did nothing to save him. Instead they did something of even greater value they made Nozdormu so fearful of turning into Murozond that he stayed out of everything. This is the same dragon that stopped Azeroth from being swallowed by the time anomaly and sent Brox, Krasus and Rhonin back in time to save the world from the war of the ancients. Nozdormu thwarted the Old Gods plans twice that day.

4. How does this help you exactly? He never states they were not taking advantage of the Legion just that the Legion was weaker than the Old Gods.

5. No as I've stated he has probably been corrupted by Old Gods from other planets. The reason for why Sargeras then would help the Old Gods of Azeroth is because the Old Gods aren't doing anything to conquer other planets. The Old Gods of Azeroth don't control Sargeras in my opinion (not completely at least) but the Old Gods of the other planets don't mind if the ones on Azeroth benefit from their little puppet.

And you bring up an interesting topic, Sargeras is very powerful yes that is very, very true. But I'm stating is that he got corrupted by Old Gods while you on the other hand state that he was corrupted by lesser demons. Your claim is in other words that a Dread Lord like Mal'Ganis is more powerful than Yogg-Saron? Is my theory flawless, no by no means but it in my opinion seems stronger than yours.

 

[Zaramorus]

The problem with them only summoning Sargeras to free themselves and then hoping they could defeat him is that they would still be weak even after getting out. The story doesn't work like the game you don't just eat a piece of cheese in order to heal a flesh wound. It would take them years, decades, centuries or maybe even longer than that to recuperate for all we know. If their only plan was to regenerate than they would do so even better in their current locations. You might say that Yogg-Saron would have had problems regenerating his strength as he was in a prison but C'Thun was in a research facility and N'Zoth was never imprisoned. Yet to this day N'Zoth hasn't fully regenerated his health and he has been free for probably tens of thousands of years.

1. They turned Cho'Gall to directly serve them as Sargeras like Deathwing probably only shared their end goal and not actually their coarse of action. Therefor it's logical that they turned Cho'Gall so he could resurrect C'Thun.

2. Once again like Deathwing and the Lich King (as seen in Yogg-Saron's visions) they both served the Old Gods end goal yet took very different paths. Not to mention that through the Lich King they carried out the summoning of the Burning Legion a second time. What we have here is a select group of individuals acting out against the Burning Legion and not the big masses.

3. Yet they failed every time, what they achieved instead was chaos and infighting amongst the Bronze Dragonflight. What they accomplished left Nozdormu, one of the biggest opponents to the Old Gods there is to become emotionally crippled. Think about it Blackmoore was proven to be under the corruption of the Old Gods yet the Infinite Dragonflight did nothing to save him. Instead they did something of even greater value they made Nozdormu so fearful of turning into Murozond that he stayed out of everything. This is the same dragon that stopped Azeroth from being swallowed by the time anomaly and sent Brox, Krasus and Rhonin back in time to save the world from the war of the ancients. Nozdormu thwarted the Old Gods plans twice that day.

4. How does this help you exactly? He never states they were not taking advantage of the Legion just that the Legion was weaker than the Old Gods.

5. No as I've stated he has probably been corrupted by Old Gods from other planets. The reason for why Sargeras then would help the Old Gods of Azeroth is because the Old Gods aren't doing anything to conquer other planets. The Old Gods of Azeroth don't control Sargeras in my opinion (not completely at least) but the Old Gods of the other planets don't mind if the ones on Azeroth benefit from their little puppet.

And you bring up an interesting topic, Sargeras is very powerful yes that is very, very true. But I'm stating is that he got corrupted by Old Gods while you on the other hand state that he was corrupted by lesser demons. Your claim is in other words that a Dread Lord like Mal'Ganis is more powerful than Yogg-Saron? Is my theory flawless, no by no means but it in my opinion seems stronger than yours.

Yeah, but it doesnt have to be a dreadlord who corrupted him. With Sargeras it actually might be the same thing as with Valeera was that some spirit of a demon was put into her body. And it possible that some really powerful demon was able to corrupt him. Maybe a demon that was almost as powerful as an Old God. Oh and if Old Gods would have been freed in War of the Ancients they first would have killed/corrupted the protectors of Azeroth and then kill Sargeras and take over the Burning Legion.

 

[Razosh]

Yeah, but it doesnt have to be a dreadlord who corrupted him. With Sargeras it actually might be the same thing as with Valeera was that some spirit of a demon was put into her body. And it possible that some really powerful demon was able to corrupt him. Maybe a demon that was almost as powerful as an Old God. Oh and if Old Gods would have been freed in War of the Ancients they first would have killed/corrupted the protectors of Azeroth and then kill Sargeras and take over the Burning Legion.

Really we have quite an extensive library on different types of demons and we know that highest rank is Sargeras, second is Kil'Jaiden and Archimonde and third is the Annihilan. The later two were receuited to the fold after Sargeras. The Annihilan couldn't come close to defeat Azshara and yet a race lower than them managed to corrupt Sargeras? Yet this demon weaker than the Annihilan would be a match for an Old God? Tell me where this magic creature is please.

 

[chr2]

Really we have quite an extensive library on different types of demons and we know that highest rank is Sargeras, second is Kil'Jaiden and Archimonde and third is the Annihilan. The later two were receuited to the fold after Sargeras. The Annihilan couldn't come close to defeat Azshara and yet a race lower than them managed to corrupt Sargeras? Yet this demon weaker than the Annihilan would be a match for an Old God? Tell me where this magic creature is please.

There is no one demon behind Sargeras' corruption.

"It was fighting the Nathrezim, Ered'ruin, Sayaad, and Infernals that corrupted him as revealed in the second issue of the WoW magazine."
An official source directly states the cause of his corruption - No Old Gods involved. This is canon, no speculation will change that, and will continue to be until/if Blizzard decides to retcon it.

And just to reply to parts of your previous comment I disagree with;

We don't actually know to what extent the Lich King was a servant of the Old Gods, aside from the vague vision during the Yogg encounter. Keep in mind that the nerubians (who were worshippers of Yogg-Saron) warred against the Scourge, and that Arthas slew a Forgotten One in the depths of Azjol-Nerub. IF the Lich King was at all a servant of the Old Gods, it probably wasn't till Arthas as Lich King started messing around with Saronite, which happened long after the Third War and the second summoning of the Legion.

And yes, the Infinite Dragonflight failed with all their attempts only because their efforts were thwarted by the interfering mortal races, not cause they were intentional. The exact same goes for their masters themselves. Already now have the mortal races stopped the plans of and slain two of Azeroth's Old Gods. If not even the Old Gods can succeed with their plans, then it should be no surprise that their minions can't either.

And the reason I brought up that quote is because it antagonises the Legion. This is clearly an enemy he is addressing.

My argument with the fifth point was that the Old Gods don't get along. Even if outer space Old Gods had corrupted Sargeras, why the heck would they waste their time freeing some random Old Gods somewhere in the cosmos? What would they gain from freeing the Old Gods on Azeroth? They have this immensely powerful being with his countless armies at their beck and call - Why not use him for something that actually benefits them? It just doesn't connect.

And again, it wasn't just one specific demon who corrupted Sargeras. It was the eons of fighting these evils that slowly twisted him. Your hypothesis might seem stronger (to you), but it is really all speculation. Mine is backed by official data.

 

[Razosh]

There is no one demon behind Sargeras' corruption.

"It was fighting the Nathrezim, Ered'ruin, Sayaad, and Infernals that corrupted him as revealed in the second issue of the WoW magazine."
An official source directly states the cause of his corruption - No Old Gods involved. This is canon, no speculation will change that, and will continue to be until/if Blizzard decides to retcon it.

I actually took the liberty to read the second WoW magazine cover to cover and I must say I found no reference to this. Could you please take a photo of your magazine and upload it here? If you found this on WoWpedia then their policy is to always state the side number in the source, if it doesn't it isn't considered legit.

And lets deal with this potential knowledge first Ered'ruin and Infernals have shown no capability of mind controlling other previously so lets discard them. What you're saying is that a few Nathrezim and Sayaad managed to mind control one of the mightiest titans who've ever lived? Sayaad first of all can be controlled by the mortal races of Azeroth including humans so they're weak as shit in comparison to Sargeras. The dread lords in turn are not that much stronger, Mal'Ganis one of the strongest of the Nathrezim were taken down in a one v one by Arthas. And before you say that's because he had frostmourne we can take a look at any of them from a stat perspective in WCIII and see that none of them are really more powerful than a hero like Jaina or Sylvanas. In fact Sylvanas used her army and outwitted Varimartharas, Balnazar and Deatheroc so they aren't really that great to be honest. Yet these two inferior races somehow managed to corrupt Sargeras, but my theory that it was the Old Gods seems far fetched?

And just to reply to parts of your previous comment I disagree with;

We don't actually know to what extent the Lich King was a servant of the Old Gods, aside from the vague vision during the Yogg encounter. Keep in mind that the nerubians (who were worshippers of Yogg-Saron) warred against the Scourge, and that Arthas slew a Forgotten One in the depths of Azjol-Nerub. IF the Lich King was at all a servant of the Old Gods, it probably wasn't till Arthas as Lich King started messing around with Saronite, which happened long after the Third War and the second summoning of the Legion.

My apologies, you're right on this one so the whole Lich King thing doesn't really help me out.

And yes, the Infinite Dragonflight failed with all their attempts only because their efforts were thwarted by the interfering mortal races, not cause they were intentional. The exact same goes for their masters themselves. Already now have the mortal races stopped the plans of and slain two of Azeroth's Old Gods. If not even the Old Gods can succeed with their plans, then it should be no surprise that their minions can't either.

You don't really address my point though. The Infinite Dragonflight served the Old Gods yet they could have jumped in and helped Blacmoore who was a confirmed minion of the Old Gods yet they didn't. It's almost like their intentions weren't to succeed but rather to create chaos which they did. Nozdormu was maybe the one who had caused the Old Gods most trouble as he did in the aftermath of WarCraft III were as I said he soiled the Old Gods plans twice in one day. After he found out that he was going to turn into Murozond regardless of his actions he went into a deep depression and became incredibly inactive.

My argument with the fifth point was that the Old Gods don't get along. Even if outer space Old Gods had corrupted Sargeras, why the heck would they waste their time freeing some random Old Gods somewhere in the cosmos? What would they gain from freeing the Old Gods on Azeroth? They have this immensely powerful being with his countless armies at their beck and call - Why not use him for something that actually benefits them? It just doesn't connect.

They don't spend their time trying to save the Old Gods of Azeroth they just don't care that their minions are being burrowed as they most likely have already decimated all other life on their planets. Besides Yogg-Saron is the Old God of death and C'Thun presumably the Old God of Chaos which mean that the other Old Gods probably also benefits from death and chaos which means that Sargeras could spread it to Azeroth which could theoretically empower the Old Gods on the other planets.

And again, it wasn't just one specific demon who corrupted Sargeras. It was the eons of fighting these evils that slowly twisted him. Your hypothesis might seem stronger (to you), but it is really all speculation. Mine is backed by official data.

Yes it's all speculation and as I've said before my speculation isn't flawless I just think it makes more sense than the alternative. And you bring up an interesting point it took eons to corrupt Sargeras, we know that the Old Gods spent centuries if not millennia attempting to corrupt Neltharion. We've seen it being done before by Old Gods yet we've never seen this dedication or patience in a dread lord before.

The Old Gods know that while they're still weak they can't defeat Sargeras, they're not stupid. So why then would they take this risk of summoning Sargeras if they weren't sure they could control him? In order to control someone you need to either have a bigger magical power than the other person or you need to be smarter. The Old Gods have proven to be smarter than titans, C'Thun managed to fool them all that he was dead. The Old Gods are also stronger at least if we go by what Krasus said in War of the Ancients and he's a neutral source that would gain nothing on lying and he has been close to Sargeras which makes his word the most solid one.

 

[Zaramorus]

Really we have quite an extensive library on different types of demons and we know that highest rank is Sargeras, second is Kil'Jaiden and Archimonde and third is the Annihilan. The later two were receuited to the fold after Sargeras. The Annihilan couldn't come close to defeat Azshara and yet a race lower than them managed to corrupt Sargeras? Yet this demon weaker than the Annihilan would be a match for an Old God? Tell me where this magic creature is please.

Well i meant that what if there was a powerful demon that corrupted Sargeras. Of course right now the most powerful demon is Sargeras who really isnt a demon. He is a Dark Titan so he still is under the Titan category and not demon. And Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are actually corrupt draeneis so they arent a demon too. They might be demons now, but from who they were before i still dont think they are demons. And who said it was the Annihilian that corrupted Sargeras? Maybe it was a demon type that went extinct and was more powerful than any other demon. Or maybe it was just a super powerful spell the Nathrezim used to corrupt Sargeras.

 

[Razosh]

It cant have been the annihilan since they were recruited by Kil'Jaiden.

 

[chr2]

I actually took the liberty to read the second WoW magazine cover to cover and I must say I found no reference to this. Could you please take a photo of your magazine and upload it here? If you found this on WoWpedia then their policy is to always state the side number in the source, if it doesn't it isn't considered legit.

Yeah, I did read it on WoWpedia, but I believe this is the source it's based on:
http://wow.gamepedia.com/File:Sargeras_in_Combat.jpg

Since I don't have a copy of the Magazine, I just kinda assumed that it was directly written somewhere. In that case, my theory is a bit more speculative than I thought, as that picture leaves a lot up for interpretation.

And lets deal with this potential knowledge first Ered'ruin and Infernals have shown no capability of mind controlling other previously so lets discard them. What you're saying is that a few Nathrezim and Sayaad managed to mind control one of the mightiest titans who've ever lived? Sayaad first of all can be controlled by the mortal races of Azeroth including humans so they're weak as shit in comparison to Sargeras. The dread lords in turn are not that much stronger, Mal'Ganis one of the strongest of the Nathrezim were taken down in a one v one by Arthas. And before you say that's because he had frostmourne we can take a look at any of them from a stat perspective in WCIII and see that none of them are really more powerful than a hero like Jaina or Sylvanas. In fact Sylvanas used her army and outwitted Varimartharas, Balnazar and Deatheroc so they aren't really that great to be honest. Yet these two inferior races somehow managed to corrupt Sargeras, but my theory that it was the Old Gods seems far fetched?

Yes it's all speculation and as I've said before my speculation isn't flawless I just think it makes more sense than the alternative. And you bring up an interesting point it took eons to corrupt Sargeras, we know that the Old Gods spent centuries if not millennia attempting to corrupt Neltharion. We've seen it being done before by Old Gods yet we've never seen this dedication or patience in a dread lord before.

The difference between our theories is that I don't think Sargeras is being manipulated or mind-controlled at all. I believe he is too powerful for that. He was twisted by the countless eons of fighting not from an outside interference, but from within. No matter how many demons he vanquished, there were always more - He was fighting an impossible and futile fight, and eventually that got to him, so he decided that the Titans' mission was pointless and therefore he turned on them. All by himself.
From what we know, the Old Gods appear to be bound to the planets they inhabit, while the Titans are interplanetary beings capable of traveling through the cosmos. As we all know, it took millennia to corrupt Deathwing despite his connection to the earth. As far as we know, Sargeras doesn't have any similar connection to the earth, he is much more powerful than Deathwing, and I doubt he has ever stayed on a planet for long enough for any Old God(s) to wrap their tentacles around him (metaphorically speaking). I find it more likely that they would've been able to corrupt Khaz'Goroth as he was the one who gave Neltharion his powers, and probably has a similar (and more powerful) connection to the earth. But they have not, because he too is too powerful to control.

You don't really address my point though. The Infinite Dragonflight served the Old Gods yet they could have jumped in and helped Blacmoore who was a confirmed minion of the Old Gods yet they didn't. It's almost like their intentions weren't to succeed but rather to create chaos which they did. Nozdormu was maybe the one who had caused the Old Gods most trouble as he did in the aftermath of WarCraft III were as I said he soiled the Old Gods plans twice in one day. After he found out that he was going to turn into Murozond regardless of his actions he went into a deep depression and became incredibly inactive.

The Infinite Dragonflight didn't interfere in the War of the Shifting Sands or the death of two Old Gods either. If your theory is correct, then the whole point of the Infinite Dragonflight was to, well, create the Infinite Dragonflight and prevent Nozdormu from stopping the Hour of Twilight, which they also failed to do. I'm saying that the Old Gods aren't as all-knowing as they let out, and that failures aren't at all that surprising for their plans, evidenced by the fact that two Old Gods have already died - unless you're saying these deaths were also part of the Old Gods' Master Plan.
And also, if the Infinite Dragonflight intended to cause chaos for the Bronze all along, why choose these specific points in time? They could've done this anywhere in the timestream, so why choose events that would've resulted in the foiling of Legion plans had they succeeded.

They don't spend their time trying to save the Old Gods of Azeroth they just don't care that their minions are being burrowed as they most likely have already decimated all other life on their planets. Besides Yogg-Saron is the Old God of death and C'Thun presumably the Old God of Chaos which mean that the other Old Gods probably also benefits from death and chaos which means that Sargeras could spread it to Azeroth which could theoretically empower the Old Gods on the other planets.

Okay, this does make sense if Yogg-Saron and C'thun are they universal gods or their respective elements, but we don't really know. There might be Old Gods in other planets that are also the god of death and chaos and so on - If not, then I can agree that freeing Azerothian Old Gods would benefit them, otherwise I still don't see why they would bother.

 

[Razosh]

I may be giving the Old Gods to much credit I know I may very well be wrong. But you need to admit you're not giving the Old Gods enough credit. It did take them a lot of time to curropt Neltharion but that was in their weakend state. And as stated by Krasus the Old Gods in their original state are much more powerful than Sargeras and his word is the most solid source we have.

And if Sargeras wasn't curropted I would like to understand how he went through his physical alteration.

 

[Zaramorus]

Well maybe Sargeras wasnt corrupted since he actually was thinking that if Titans mission is to bring order then why was there so much chaos. Prehaps chaos was the way to go and he just started undoing what Titans had done, because he belived chaos is the only way to go, but i think Sargeras was still abit corrupted.

 

[Razosh]

I've been looking through a lot of my books and not just wowpedia and attempted to explain Sargeras through the Old Gods. The entire reason is that the Old Gods seek chaos and the Legion seeks chaos and I'm not one who believe in coinsidence. I believe now that I was partly wrong and partly right I only believe I started in the wrong end. I now think the original demons came from Old Gods as all life we've seen so far originates from either the titans or the old gods, we've seen very little evulotion. The only race with questionable origin of the proto-drakes but they too have proven increadibly vurnable to the Old Gods.

It's also important to note that the demon curroption reminds of the Azerothian Old God curroption exept they become fiery instead growing tentacles and eyes. It's also important to note that the elementals served the Old Gods so that transformation.

In my foolishness I fear I got used to always being right and didn't consider everything that I should have but the core idea wasn't bad. I've also theorized that since the twisting neather is generally believed to be an alternative dimension like the emerald dream that that's where the souls of the Old Gods flee when their physical form perishes. This would also explain why mortals can't kill the Old Gods as we have no foothold or way to enter the Twisting Neather. This would tie togheter a lot of the blank wholes in the story, the origin of the Twisting Neather why races turned to Fel Magic and became demons.

Twilight of the gods this was a pain to type on a phone.

Edit: If they still serve the Old Gods I don't know. Sargeras however would gain nothing on attacking the Old Gods as he wants to achieve chaos and the Old Gods represents chaos.

It's also important to note that the realm of spirits and is thought to be the place where spirits go afteir the hosts death. To further build on that have you ever died in WoW only to see the sky twisting?