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Sargeras vs the Old Gods

Discussion in 'World of Warcraft' started by Razosh, Oct 16, 2016.

  1. Razosh

    Razosh

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    For those of you not familiar with these entities I will mostly discuss War of the Ancients and the WarCraft chronicles: volume 1. For those of you wishing to learn more I suggest this video.



    The WarCraft chronicles seem to indicate that the Titans are more powerful than the Old Gods and quite a lot at that. First it mentions that Aman'Thul ripped Y'Shaarj, the most powerful of the Old Gods from its seat and that created the well of eternity. This made the Titans realize that they couldn't slay the Old Gods as that would mean the doom of Azeroth and Azeroth is the egg of a Titan, so they didn't want that. Instead the Titans imprisoned the Old Gods to minimize their influence as much as possible. Second we have Sargeras who split a planet storing a titan spirit inside into two, this despite the fact that at least one Old God inhabited this planet.

    So you're saying, "cool, Sargeras is more powerful than the Old Gods, what of it?" Well if I were to assume the Old Gods are in fact less powerful than Sargeras then the entire storyline of WarCraft falls apart, don't believe me?

    Lets start at the one source we have that states the Old Gods to be VASTLY more powerful than Sargeras, the War of the Ancients. In the book trilogy the entire foundation of the story is based on the Old Gods being more powerful than Sargeras. Korialstrasz and Nozdormu both state that the Old Gods are an evil more powerful even than Sargeras. Now ask yourself who are the only living beings on Azeroth who could have had such a knowledge, the titan keepers whom themselves heard it directly from the titans. Not to mention that Alexstrasza fears the Old Gods more than Sargeras, she knows that the arrival of Sargeras will mean certain death and almost guaranteed torture, yet she fears the Old Gods more.

    You're thinking "but wait couldn't Sargeras have tricked everyone, I mean when Illidan saw his true power Illidan realized that what Azshara and the others had seen was but a fraction." Yes that's true but I have several complaints with that. First the chronicles quite clearly states that Sargeras knows that there's a planet called Azeroth but he has no idea where it is, how to find it or even if there are any Old Gods on it yet he's supposed to have managed to manipulate these entities whos existence he did not know of? Secondly Sargeras needed help to channel the powers of the Demon Soul, a tool so simplistic even Varo'Then, a captain who could barely wield magic managed to use it to almost kill Korialstrasz, one of the largest red dragons alive, and yet we are supposed to belive that he managed to outwit the Old Gods? Thirdly as I said, Illidan did witness the true power of Sargeras and he was under the control of the Old Gods, so if he knew the true power of Sargeras so would the Old Gods, yet they kept going with the summoning. Forth we do enter the though process of the Old Gods at some rare occasions and in War of the Ancients it quite specifically states that they don't fear Sargeras since he's just one Titan and it took several of his brethren to even imprison them, the Old Gods are quite clearly referring to the highest of the Pantheons.

    But what would it mean for Azeroth if I assumed that the Old Gods were weaker than Sargeras? It would mean that Sargeras was never contacted, unless you believe Azshara to be able to cast such powerful spells that it tares apart the very fabrics of time and space, and lets be realistic, she's not. It would mean that Illidan never aligned himself with the highborne, never got his eyes replaced, never became a demon hunter and that he'd still be friends with Tyrande and Malfurion. It would mean that the Dragon Soul would never have needed to exist and Neltharion might to this day not have revealed his madness. The orcs would never have invaded Azeroth, the Lich King would never have his seat in Azeroth, Kalimdor would still be one huge continent with Northrend, Eastern Kingdoms, Pandaria and all the islands as part of one huge continent. That's just some of the things that would change, in reality nothing we had would be the same.

    My conclusion is that the Old Gods can only be more powerful than Sargeras because otherwise all of WarCraft falls apart and that these indications we see in the chronicles are only meant to lead us astray and they hold no basis in reality.
     
  2. Heinvers

    Heinvers

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    Expect a reply very soon™.
     
  3. Razosh

    Razosh

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    This is what you said but this is what I heard you said.

    [​IMG]

    Bring it. :D
     
  4. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Conclusion: Void gods > everything else
     
  5. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Oh yeah, don't mess with them. It is believed that it was the Void Gods was what Sylvanas saw after she committed suicide.
     
  6. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    There are many beliefs when it comes to what she saw.

    For a 'better' conclusion I would say that Sargeras is stronger simply because the titans fought the old gods at one point already.
    Sure, the old gods were not defeated - but they would have been if the Titans were willing to blow up Azeroth.
     
  7. WhiteFang

    WhiteFang

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    QFT

    Agreed once more.

    I like to believe that the old gods are more powerful,but like Chaosy said,the titans could have crushed them if they were willing to destroy Azeroth
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  8. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Yeah they would have been, but as the Old Gods clearly state it took several Titans simply to imprison one Old God and your logic is what that Sargeras > Aman'Thul+Eonar+Norgannon+Golganneth+Khaz'Goroth+Agrammar? Not to mention that the reason they won was because the Old Gods also fought wars against each other during the Titan invasion.
     
  9. WhiteFang

    WhiteFang

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    I wouldn't go on their word
     
  10. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Well spoken. But how about the word of Alexstrasza, Nozdormu, Korialstrasz? But remember as I said, Illidan has seen the true power of Sargeras and Illidan was a puppet of the Old Gods, in the words of Tyrande Whisperwind, they were inside his mind, hence they'd know Sargeras's true power so if they knew the true power of Sargeras why did they go on with the summoning?
     
  11. WhiteFang

    WhiteFang

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    Who knows,they are mysterious beings.Perhaps they had plans,or maybe something would have happened if Sargeras entered that he didn't expect.
     
  12. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    First of all I'll only address this matter using the first three game manuals, no external material (books) and certainly no WoW.

    Warcraft II says that Aegwyn (the antepenultimate guardian of Tirisfal and Medivh's mother) defeated Sargeras on Azeroth (we later speculate it was only an avatar/part of his power made manifest). Then Medivh seduced Gul'dan into fooling him that he would get the remaining power of the daemonlord from its tomb on Azeroth. We could speculate at this point that Sargeras is actually dead (basically Warcraft III mentions nothing about him after the events with Aegwyn) apart from the diabloesque essence that lived in Aegwyn and was passed to Medivh at birth (because it seems that the demon somehow became a parasite of power and not the body).
    The fun part is that even Kil'jaeden told Gul'dan that the Tomb of Sargeras would turn the creature that would harness the power within the place into a god. Gul'dan says Kil'jaeden seemed afraid of Medivh when the wizard contacted the orc warlock. Then, the demon did not respond to Gul'dan's calls anymore.
    I'm a bit saddened(?) that the Aegwyn-Sargeras plot wasn't even mentioned or corrected in the Warcraft III manual.

    Warcraft III manual
    Before that, Kil'jaeden turned to Ner'zhul (Gul'dan's first mentor) and applied the same strategy as with Gul'dan. He failed as Ner'zhul realized he could doom his people. Ner'zhul tried to escape with the other demon hater orcs but was caught in the Twisting Nether and turned into the "first" Lich King. Basically we understand that the demons failed to properly invade Azeroth so they always improvised new strategies (he sent the state police dreadlords to see things through; basically this time using the creatures of Azeroth against themselves as undead instead of enslaving a race to combat them). Archimonde was pretty much absent the first two orc-human wars (but not during the War of the Ancients where Mannoroth was also present).
    One question is though, how did they get to Azeroth, through the Twisting Nether directly connecting the demon realm to Azeroth, on Draenor through a portal to Azeroth? But then how did they get to Draenor (how did Sargeras [' avatar] get to Azeroth to fight Aegwyn?)? The only demonic appearances before Warcraft III are minor summons. The real deal demon gang(s) acted through the Twisting Nether. For instance, Kil'jaeden cast Ner'zhul and his icy prison to Northrend with little to no effort from what the manual implies. We only later see that demons like Archimonde (even Kil'jaeden) needed proper opening of powerful and stable interdimensional portals. Tichondrius and the other dreadlords didn't require that effort. So anyways, the idea probably is that during the first two wars the demons played the occult (except for Aegwyn vs Sargeras) and didn't directly want to interfere. In RoC, however, things dramatically changed to what they have been in ancient times.
    Another question raised is why didn't the Kirin Tor try to see what the heck was sending psionic waves from Northrend trying to seduce sorcerers into going there?

    Cenarius (the only night elven demigod alive) was killed in RoC by chaos orcs and not by demons directly (imagine that cowardice; some might argue: precaution...).
    Sargeras felt the presence of the Well of the Lake's power as it rippled through the Twisting Nether after Aszhara and her highborne went Draenor orc warlock-like while the Well of the Lake was connected to the Great Dark Beyond as it was harnessing the well's power. At this point Sargeras (called the Ravager of Worlds, Great Enemy of all life, Amon). The daemonlord needed the Well of Eternity as a portal/means to get to Azeroth which raises the question: how did him and his titan dudes get to Azeroth in the first place?
    Another neat question is: how did they (Illidan, Furion, Tyrande and whoever else there) escape the sundering :D (it says by he grace of Elune; if only this was more detailed)?
    The pact regarding the protection of the second Well of Eternity was agreed between Furion and three dragons (Alexstrasza, Ysera and Nozdormu).

    Before any of that, the titans came and started terraforming a planet and empowered (genetically magically engineered) the native primordial life forms. They were ensuring the order of the worlds of the universe as opposed to the entities of the Twisting Nether (which connected all of the worlds) that were doing the opposite (consuming, destroying the worlds, ensuing chaos). Basically it's good vs evil as seen in many ancient earthly religions and mythologies. An idea that first seen in the BlizzEnt game Diablo II and was later ported to StarCraft II. So, here it says that the Eredar are a race of devilish sorcerers that turned/twisted the inhabitants of the invaded planets into demons. So, it's safe to say that the Eredar (WoW Draenei) are creatures from the Twisting Nether and not from another planet. Or not? Sargeras fought all of them and entrapped them into a vacant space of the Twisting Nether (maybe he just wanted to have them all isolated in their own realm somewhere). Anyways, it's during this strife and finally during the one with the Nathrezim that the great titan falls to depression and loses his mind ultimately resulting in his corruption and polar reverse. He leaves the Pantheon and sets out to do... stuff like setting every villain he imprisoned free (crowd yay!). Well, the other titans didn't think it was a good idea to get Sargeras to a mental institute and left Azeroth while the demonic titan was preparing his army to destroy the Pantheon. The weird thing is that the Nathrezim and Eredar pledged their allegiance to Sargeras but then the Eredar (namely Kill'jaeden) enslaved the Nathrezim and they were still somewhat happy because they were doing bad and naughty stuff. You know, everything sounds simple when conquering worlds but when it comes to Azeroth it's portals, unknown routes and whatnot (of course other worlds were easier to devastate as Sargeras' and the bigger demons' presence wasn't needed).
    The Pantheon now reached the planet that would be Azeroth. The titans had to first clean it up of other creatures before putting their own plans into action. Now we're getting at the good stuff:
    As the Titans made their way across the chaotic, primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile, elemental beings. The elementals, worshipping a race of unfathomable evil beings known only as the Old Gods, vowed to drive the Titans back and keep their world inviolate from the invaders’ metallic touch.
    So the Pantheon wasn't the only group shaping worlds.
    The Pantheon, troubled by the Old Gods’ penchant for evil, sent their forces to make war upon the elementals and their dark masters. Though the elementals fought and raged, their powers could not stop the mighty Titans. The Pantheon shattered the Old Gods’ citadels and chained the five evil beings far beneath the surface of the world. Without the Old Gods’ power to keep their raging spirits bound to the physical world, the elementals dissipated and bled back into the earth itself. With the elementals’ departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony.
    Here we kind of find out that the Old Gods could not (maybe) be destroyed. It's not clear if they were Twisting Nether entities or material beings as the titans. We also do not gather any information of any titan actually dying or being hurt. Basically, it's like a good force vs evil force and one of those forces gets "absolute" control breaking the balance.
    Then they created the dwarves from magical stone, the sea giants and the Well of Eternity, empowered the great 5 dragons (among whom Malygos and Neltharion took no part in the War of the Ancients) that evolved during time and awoken as a race in that age. They left these dragons as the protectors of the world in case the Old Gods would try to break free, I guess. It's very likely other worlds "suffered" from the same fate. And it makes a lot of sense. It's why the Old Gods were absent the whole Warcraft RTS series. They didn't do anything. They were a bunch of enigmatic punks that met their godfather, the Pantheon. The only close thing we get to the Old Gods is the Forgotten One and its Faceless. But they were basically mistakenly released by the undead while trying to get to the Lich King through the undergrounds of the Nerubian Kingdom.


    Now, we can clearly see that titans can join the dark side (one example though) and become weaker than before needing a portal to get to a planet. The question is, can the Twisting Nether creatures and the Old Gods join the light to ensure the vision the Pantheon has? I think the Old Gods might not necessarily be Twisting Nether entities and that they just wanted to have their own agenda but the titans being more powerful arrogantly (maybe) decided what was best for the universe.
    I'm saying that I doubt the Old Gods are more powerful than the titans. If the Old Gods are Azerothian entities or maybe just powerful physical entities (we don't hear of them anywhere else than on Azeroth so...), destroying the planet might eliminate them or at least their physical form? Obviously that would not be the Pantheon's plan. If they deemed the Old Gods a threat they would have sacrificed a planet. Moreover, if for some reason they could only imprison ye' Old Gods they wouldn't have left (all of them) if they also considered them a threat. It was conspicuous that those dragons and whatever on the planet was enough to ensure the Old Dudes won't release anarchy.

    I understand that WoW "developed" the background and stories of the Old Gods but to me it was just for new bosses, enemies, events and places purposes. Things like curse of the flesh and all that are neat but conflict with the RTS series events to quite a large extent. Why weren't the Old Gods able to "escape" or act more thoroughly than before while the world was in conflict (demon invasions), powerstruggle and imbalance? Their sudden "awakening" in WoW is forced.
     
  13. Razosh

    Razosh

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    I'm a bit saddened(?) that the Aegwyn-Sargeras plot wasn't even mentioned or corrected in the Warcraft III manual.[/QUOTE]

    That's nice and all though I fail to see how this in any way compares the power between the two forces. And Sargeras is not dead as the Legion is attempting to summon him in WoW: Legion.

    Sargeras came to Draenor with his demon horde for one simple reason, while the two planets would be located light years apart within the Twisting Nether they were roommates, seeking vengeance Sargeras sought his way to Draenor to get an easy way into Azeroth. He used Medivh who was his puppet to open a door from Azeroths side and Gul'Dan to open one from Draenors side.

    Good question, we know for a fact that demons existed on Azeroth past the War of the Ancients, most likelly they opened a gateway for Sargeras's avatar to enter. If you want certainties however, I don't know nor does to my knowledge anyone.

    Humans nor elves at that time had no real attachment to Nortrend hence I'd guess that's why, the better question I think is why didn't the dragons investigate? Maybe they did and decided not to interfere for some reason.

    Nope, if you're speaking about demigods who is a night elf then the answer is there is none, Cenarius is the son of the great stag Malorne and the presumed Naaru Elune and raised by a dragon. If you're talking of the guardians of hyjal then Tortolla has never been physically slain and while Malorne lost his physical body his spirit never died but retreated to the Emerald Dreams.

    We know very little of the prehistoric lore especially concerning the reign of the Old Gods, I don't know the answer to your question.

    The War of the Ancients trilogy goes into more details, Malfurion on the back of Ysera convinces the dragon to go and collect Illidan and Tyrande trapped in Zin-Azshari. Togheter they fly on dragonback to safety trying to help anyone caught by panic runing towards their doom. The dragons herded the entire night elven population to mount Hyjal, their presence essential to the survival of the race.

    The Eredar, just like the Draenei originate from the planet of Argus, any mortal race can with sufficient fel magic become a demon as proven by Illidan. Illidan has consumed so much fel energy that he has become more demon than night elf, hence his spirit can never die but simply escapes to the Twisting Nether.

    What really happened was that Sargeras was tasked by the other Titans to stop the demons, Sargeras after a while noticed that the demons he slayed always returned, not knowing what to do he imprisoned all demons. After a while of following the demons Sargeras found himself on a planet that had a titan spirit stored inside it. This world was also inhabited by Old Gods, these Old Gods had corrupted the Titan spirit beyond recognition to Sargeras hence he split the world in two and he knew that if a corrupted Titan was ever to rise they'd all beg for death. Sargeras decided then that the destruction of all life was a mercy in comparison to letting it live just to be enslaved by the corrupted Titan. Sargeras then went to the world where he had imprisoned the demons and released them all in exchange for their allegiance to him and his cause. The demons gladly agreed and this is how the Legion was born, the Eradars came into the picture way later.



    Well the only thing I can prove there is that there weren't 5 Old Gods but 4 as clearly seen in this picture. (Neptulon, Ragnaros, Therazane and Al'akir are elementals.)

    [​IMG]

    Actually we have proof of both a Titan and an Old God "dying". Do you notice anything in the map above? There's no Well of Eternity. That's because the Well of Eternity was created when Y'Shaarj was "slain". Y'Shaarj the most powerful of the Old Gods was pulled from his throne by Aman'Thul and "slain". Seeing the damage the death of Y'Shaarj caused the land the Titans decide to imprison the other three to save the Titan spirit slumbering inside of Azeroth. All Titans aside from Sargeras were later "slain" by Sargeras as he wielded Fel magic which the other Titans couldn't combat properly, their spirits travelled to the titan keepers on Azeroth.

    This actually happened many years apart so to oversimplify a very long and complicated story this is how it went.

    1. The Titans imprisoned the 3 Old Gods, "slew" Y'Shaarj and togheter with Elune shaped Azeroth.
    2. The Titans were "slain" by Sargeras and their spirits traveled to the keepers on Azeroth.
    3. The to be Dragon Aspects slew Galakrond and were blessed by the Titan Keepers.

    The Old Gods, with the removal of the Well of Eternity lost their foothold in Azeroth, they would however all find a way to get a hold once again. Fandral Staghelm planted the world tree Vordrassil in the frozen landscape of Northrend, the tree eventually grew so large that the roots grew into Yogg-Sarons prison and that's how Yogg-Saron came into control of Northrend. The druids eventually chopped down the tree but as we found out in WotLK the damage had already been done.

    [​IMG]

    The Old Gods are beings (as you can see in the image) of the void realm. They were created by entities called the Void Lords. As for the question can they be turned into a source of light, we have no example of it but considering that thei polar opposite is the Naaru and the Naaru can be turned into beings of pure darkness it seems only logical that the purpose of the Old Gods could be changed. As for the demons, their polar opposite is the Titans and the Arcane, seeing as Sargeras could be turned from order to disorder it stands also to reason that the other way is possible. I however think that changing someones nature from good to bad is easier than bad to good.

    Oh but we do, their domain is the shadow lands.

    True, that was the entire purpose of Algalon, Algalon also deemed Azeroth unsafe and as a risk but he disobeyed the orders given to him by the Titans and did not follow through on the destruction plan.

    Sad but true, this however is the lore and the chronicles I think actually did an amazing contribution to the lore.
     
  14. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I said Sargeras would be dead at that point before they decided to turn him into a titan in Warcraft III.
    I wanted to point out that even though the forces of the Twisting Nether are basically weak against the titans, the latter can become deranged while fighting the dark forces for long periods of time.
    I was referring to the demons. They probably got from the Twisting Nether through portals to Draenor and Azeroth. Also, Sargeras was absent after the confrontation with Aegwyn. Strangely, they only sent Archimonde and a couple of others during RoC. The only mention of Sargeras is in TFT because of his tomb in the sunken ruins. Also, the Eye of Sargeras, that kind of sounds he'd be dead to me (the eye of his avatar, maybe...).
    Yeah, that too, especially when the dragons were supposed to be the protectors of the world. Alexstrasza was freed before RoC, Malygos, Nozdormu and Ysera were all fine, I guess. The only one with troubles was Deathwing.
    I guess, that's WoW. In the Warcraft III manual:
    In time, the night elves’ curiosity led them to meet and befriend a number of powerful entities, not the least of which was Cenarius, a mighty demi-god of the primordial forestlands.
    He wasn't racially night elf but more faction based but:
    Keeper of the Grove: The enchanted keepers are the favored sons of the demigod, Cenarius. Like their lesser dryad sisters, the keepers appear to be half night elf and half stag.
    It's pretty safe to say they're night elf, at least in part.
    The only thing about Elune's image written in the WcIII manual:
    The Kaldorei, or night elves as they would later be known, worshipped the moon goddess, Elune, and believed that she slept within the Well’s shimmering depths during the daylight hours.
    Was there even a capital to begin with after the sundering :D?
    I'm assuming there were few left otherwise I don't see how a few dragons would have done it. If dragons were many, they would be mostly all over the place like the night elves and other later races.
    That's WoW. In Warcraft III it's pretty clear that Archimonde and Kil'jaeden were Eredar not demonic draenei. In TFT, there are even those creatures named Eredar Warlock and whatnot that look like the two demon lords (more like Kil'jaeden).
    Legion, right? A bit far fetched if you ask me but how else would they revive him for the WoW expansion? The Fel is an absolute new invention that I don't like. It's almost like how they introduced midichlorians to the Star Wars prequels. The first two game manuals imply that the orcs were only lead by corrupt leaders not that they were changed in any way (by the way no mention of chaos, fel or brown orcs). The Warcraft III manual however states that:
    Some speculated that some strange disease, contractible only by orcs, brought about the baffling lethargy. But the Archmage, Antonidas of Dalaran, posed a different hypothesis. Researching what little he could find of orcish history, Antonidas learned that the orcs had been under the crippling influence of demonic power (or warlock magics) for generations. He speculated that the orcs had been corrupted by demonic powers even before their first invasion of Azeroth. Clearly, demons had spiked the orcs’ blood, which in turn granted the brutes unnaturally heightened strength, endurance and aggression.
    So then, indeed there was more than just corruption of the leading class. Later in RoC we see a new type of demonic corruption, the drinking of demon blood (a Pit Lord's) turning the orcs into chaos orcs. But:
    Mannoroth the Destructor is a being of pure hate, malice, and rage. He is the ultimate living engine of destruction, seeking only to raze and murder everything in his path. It has been speculated that he has some significant ties to the orcish race – that he may be the original source of their bloodlust and corruption, but this has yet to be proven.
    And that could mean (as seen in WoD) that the warlocks needed the orcs to drink demonic blood too in order to control their brethren properly? It's a bit weird honestly because Grom didn't need a warlock to control him into doing the Legion's bidding (kill Cenarius). I guess Mannoroth controlled him and the Warsong from the shadows instead.
    That's about what Warcraft III says.
    What!? Is that also Legion? LOL. That sounds almost exactly as StarCraft II's Amon story. By the way, what's with that lame titan spirit? The Pantheon didn't know about that one? Would they risk sending Sargeras alone to fight Old Gods instead of doing it as a team like they did on Azeroth? WoW complicates things so much it creates questions with circling answers.
    That's also what Warcraft III says with the exception of the Eredar that came later. The Eredar were the ones to throw Sargeras into depression and later the Nathrezim stroke the final blow and corrupted him.
    The Warcraft III manual doesn't even mention their name but if it says there were 5 than that's how many they were :D. And, are those supposed to be the ones on Azeroth or those that corrupted Sargeras on that planet? To avoid another plothole, those 4 should not be on Azeroth.
    You realized that I didn't use any WoW material, right :D? Anyways, saying proof is a bit overwhelming.
    It's kind of hard to tell....
    Wait, what!? Didn't you just write Sargeras found a titan soul on some other planet with Old Gods? I'm confused. Or was Azeroth very much alike that other planet!?
    StarCraft II? Anyways, the Warcraft III manual says the Pantheon (without Sargeras that was already mad and preparing the demon army to destroy his former friends) left Azeroth to search for other planets to harmonize. There is no mention of Sargeras killing other titans during that time and certainly no mention of titan souls (what the heck is that anyway?).
    What the heck are those?
    Ah, so they changed the fact that the Pantheon blessed the dragons before leaving Azeroth...
    And to forget the good old days when Alexstrasza was the one to bless Nordrassil into existence for a reason and as a symbolical event...
    It took Archimonde exploding to hurt the World Tree in RoC and you're saying they just chopped that one...
    LOL, that looks like the kabbalistic Sephiroth. Anyways, I figured as much. Energy just changes from a state to another.
    So I guess the Twisting Nether is what connects all those "realms"?
    That shouldn't be the case to be easier one way or the other. If the universe is supposed to be in balance, any imbalance should be possible to the same extent. Back in the RTS days, the demons were of the Twisting Nether and were in no way as powerful as the titans. However, they were opposing forces.
    Yeah, in WoW.
    What!? So, the titans could not do it themselves? They needed Calgon to do it? WoW changed too much, too many intricacies if you ask me that lead to conspiracy-like theories: the titans were afraid but not of the Old Gods, ye' Old Gods were everywhere and nowhere, Sargeras killed all of the titans but not all of them, the Old Gods were kept imprisoned during Azeroth's ages of strife by Lemurians, intraterrestrial aliens and whatnot to finally be released by those that lived above on the ground by semi-accident (curse of the flesh and all that).

    Now, if I were to address this matter from a WoW perspective, I'd say that no one is more powerful than the other. Everything is an infinite cycle of balance and imbalance. Each of the 6 major forces of the universe may lose and surpass temporary power. If for instance order would be marginalized by disorder or other negative universe forces, the other positive universe forces will fight to ensure the balance and the other way around.
    What we have here gentlemen, is the Diablo universe philosophy, the Eternal Conflict. It might also be the case of our own universe or not.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  15. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Actually I'm going to give Malygos a fair chance here, his mental state after the War of the Ancients was always debatable and even if he was considered mentally stable enough to raise children I think the fact that he started the Nexus War kind of debunks that.

    Not unless you consider Elune a night elf, though at present it seems to be that she's a powerful Naaru. They might visually resemble night elves somewhat but at least for Cenarius we know 100% certain that he's not a night elf. As for his children that a bit more difficult as we have no idea whom the mother is or if they even have one.

    Considering that the Well was the central point of the Old Gods power I VERY much doubt that myth to be true.

    The closest things they had to a capital were a few tents put up on mount Hyjal.

    Most dragons died as a result of the war of the Ancients but even one dragon could have a huge impact. If you want a specific number I can do nothing for you there.

    Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are both Eredar and demon, they where in fact the rulers of their people along with the prophet Velen, when Sargeras approached them and promised them unimaginable power only Velen and a few of his followers denied. They eventually fled the planet of Argus where the Draenei originate from and relocated themselves to the planet of Draenor with the help of the Naaru.

    I agree, Blizzard has gotten a little to liberal with the "can't die" concept, demons can only die if slain in the Twisting Nether, forest lords (like Cenarius or Malorne) can only be slain in the Emerald Dream, elementals can only be slain on the elemental plains and so on. I was ok with that type of thinking when it was only concerning the Old Gods but they've gone a little to far with the concept.

    Yeah that's right, the demons made the orcs drink the blood of Mannoroth in order to control them, Cenarius however is kind of a one of fluke, they exploited Grommash's dedication to finish the mission and got him to drink the demon blood again.

    Sargeras and Aggramar were sent alone to deal with the demon problem while the other Titans focused on finding more worlds containing titan spirits stored inside in fear of Old God influence as such a entity could bring the Titans to their knees and with that the entire universe would be become enslaved by the Void Lords and the Old Gods.

    In reality it was mostly the Old Gods, When Sargeras saw the spirit of a Titan so tainted and twisted beyond recognition by the Old Gods he split the planet in half, he later approached his brethren saying that the world needed to be purged from life assuring that the world would remain free of the Old Gods taint, the other Titans disagreed and so Sargeras "slew" them. How Azeroth managed to stay untouched so long despite 4 Old Gods inhabiting the planet is unknown though I've posted my theory here: Theory: Elune, Ysera and Tyrande.

    There are four Old Gods on Azeroth they had I assume nothing to do with Sargeras's initial corruption but that was the work of at least one other Old God on another unnamed planet storing a titan spirit inside it. If we are to quote Nozdormu he said in Twilight of the Aspects that all horrible things that has befallen this world can be traced back to the Old Gods. That once again proves to be true as they were behind the corruption of Sargeras. (Not the four on Azeroth but other Old Gods.) And even though we have no proof of this specifically this also seems to indicate that the Old Gods created the first demons.

    Well we do, in the WarCraft Chronicles Part 1 it states that Y'Shaarj and all of the Titans aside from Sargeras and Azeroth have been slain.

    Not really if you compare it to this image.

    [​IMG]

    There is no such body of water in the previous image I posted.

    Yeah he did, one spirit was found by Sargeras on an unnamed planet and a second Titan, female thought to be even more powerful than Sargeras was found inside the planet of Azeroth. The three imprisoned Old Gods are Yogg-Saron, C'Thun and N'Zoth who all lived on Azeroth, the slain one was Y'Shaarj also located on Azeroth. The Old God(s) that corrupted the unnamed titan spirit and Sargeras was on another planet.

    A soul is considered to be a spiritual force with its origin in several mythologies on our planet Gaia (Earth) this concept was implemented by Blizzard Entertainment into their games and a soul is separate from a physical body, for example in the Norse religion souls travel to the halls of Valhalla and only supernatural entities (such as Odin or in the Abrahamic religions God and Satan) have the power to affect a soul.

    The Titan Keepers on Azeroth are entities created by the Pantheon to safe-guard the planet they all have their names originate from various religions. We have the keepers of Ulduar Freja (from the Norse godess Freja), Thorim (from the Norse god Thor), Hodir (from the Norse god Odin), Mimiron (from the Norse God Mimer), Loken (from the Norse god Loki), Tyr (from the Norse god Tyr) and Odyn (once again from Odin.) Then we have the watcher Ra-Den in Pandaria (from the Egyptian god Ra.) And since I'm sure you get it to save time I'll simply line up the next keepers. Archaedas and Ironaya in Uldaman, Ammunae and lastly Isiset, Rajh and Setesh in Uldum.

    Yep Eonar used Freja to bless Alexstrasza and Ysera, Aman'Thul used Ra-Den to bless Nozdormu, Khaz'Goroth used Archaedas to bless Neltharion and Malygos was blessed by Loken under the guidance of the Titan Norgannon.

    In reality Illidan poured two vials from the Well of Eternity into the lake atop Mount Hyjal and since the Well contained the essence of Y'Shaarj the lake became corrupted. Alexstrasza, Ysera and Nozdormu came up with an idea that could save the lake by planting a tree there that would convert the powers of the lake into a force of life. Luckily Illidan was stopped before he could pour all seven vials into the lake (one for each of Y'Shaarj's heads) and thus salvaging the lake was possible.

    No, no the one you're speaking of is the world tree Nordrassil, the accorn of the mighty tree G'Hanir, Vordrassil was a completly other tree, that's not to say that it was an easy task to do however. Besides all sources we have seem to quite clearly indicate the Apects to be more powerful than Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden.

    Not quite, the realm labeled "Fel" is the Twisting Nether, in reality it is probably the Void Lords who has the most knowledge as Sargeras nor the other Titans has no idea that the Void Lords even exist.[/QUOTE]

    That's just my personal speculation don't take it as fact.

    And what does WoW stand for? World of WarCraft, this is the lore in the entire WarCraft universe. ;)

    Algalon served as their eyes, they were to few to oversee every planet in the universe. And they were busy trying to stop the Old Gods from destroying the universe.

    On the contrary, it is Sargeras's and the other Titans fear of the Old Gods that drives them, they know if they allow the Old Gods to gather strength not even a trillion of the Pantheon could stop the Old Gods.

    It seems more to me that none are evenly balanced and that imbalance is what all sides strive for, on one side we have the Naaru, Life and the Titans on the other we have the Old Gods, the Legion and death. Your logic is the same as in WW1 that by forming two super-blocks of the great powers both would serve as the others detergent as to make sure war never erupted since none could make gains. Just like in WW1 we had France, the UK and Russia on one side and Germany + Austro-Hungary on the other and the two blocks were to guarantee balance in Europe and that no wars took place. The only problem is that this plan was bullocks, war inevitably broke out because it was just simply too much effort not to have a war.

    There is no perfect balance, light will always try to get an advantage over darkness, life an advantage over death and the arcane an advantage over fel as well as the other way around.
     
  16. WhiteFang

    WhiteFang

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    I prefer the original lore about this,the titans themselves doing it

    He was mentally screwed up.He did nearly lose his entire flight,along with his consort so I can't blame the poor basket case



    For now,until the next expansion,which contradicts the previous lore.Then another book comes out which goes against the previous stuff,then we time travel back and change stuff again.WoW lore is inconsistent.Blizzard cares much more about gameplay,and will gladly screw over lore to make some excuse to add more content
     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    OK, that was added later in WoW and the book trilogy.
    Well how can one visually resemble a night elf but not 100% be one or be related to one? I guess it's like the Valar and Maiar of Silmarillion that took elven and human forms.
    Yeah but if we consider everything a myth, imagine the retcon possibilities...
    No, I mean the capital was near the well and the sundering started in the well so basically, it was improbable/almost impossible for them to be left alive, not to mention a city that was near the lake. Azshara's home was just near the well.
    Yeah, I know that but never liked it as it's basically the same thing as Kil'jaeden and the orcs. Also, weird fact that the Legion couldn't build spaceships of their own to get to Azeroth instead of using portals that even though would be a faster transport means are easily shut down while the big demons try to fit through them.
    Wow, didn't know the one with Cenarius. So he didn't die in RoC :D Kiddish if you ask me. I mean what's the point of dying if you can't really die and get stuck in some place instead?
    What's it gonna' be? In the next expansion we'll find out that in fact there were three, not two titans sent by the Pantheons? I think Sargeras mostly volunteered to do it alone knowing what dangers he might face but that wasn't a good idea as proven by what happened to him.
    The logic. Wait, what!? You're telling me titans imprisoned themselves to protect themselves from the V and O Gods? Why didn't all of them just do that then if they were so afraid? I mean, wouldn't trapping yourself mean condemning the world to chaos since the V&O Gods could just ignore the imprisoned titans and do whatever they wanted to? Or, are you saying those titan spirits could be used against the "living" titans by the V&O company? But why do titan spirits even exist and who trapped them there on various planets and why?
    This contradicts the fact that the titans wanted Azeroth destroyed but some other titan dude didn't agree. See here:
    Well, the Sephiroth shows somewhat otherwise. It shows 6 major planes that are connected, some are similar and some are in opposition. I'm saying that we see the V&O plain at the same level with that of the demons.
    Meh, I dislike the idea.
    By whom, the Pantheon, post Pantheon leaving creatures like human, nelves and whatnot, who?
    Thanks for being obvious. I really had the impression titans were supposed to be like Odhin, Thor and all those dudes while only the creatures of planets like Azeroth having souls that could be managed by titans and whatever superior beings.
    Only if you're considering the Greek mythology.
    I get it. Stuff added later because they thought the dragons were lame, right. Again, it's for bosses, new creatures, places, quests.... Because it makes little sense to accept something forced like that.
    You know it's lame when... the races like night elves, dryads and keepers of the grove and whatnot budded near the lake (first Well of Eternity) and it was the titans that improved on them there. The well was responsible of the world's life and energy. Also, they were flesh creatures and there was no curse for that in Warcraft RTS games. Where were the evil Old Gods into all of that? The tree wasn't even planted until the end of the War of the Ancients. You know it's lame when... Elune was considered the power of the lake and WoW said it was an Old God's excrement remains. You also know it's lame when... the titans crafted the well themselves. It'll probably all be great if you only knew WoW lore and nothing from the previous Warcraft games.
    Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, you've written that the druids chopped the tree not the aspects.
    I tend to differentiate the RTS series from the MMORPG and its expansions.
    But they don't want to destroy them and instead keep them locked inside planets to doom the inhabitants.
    That's what I wrote but I wanted to get into a little specifics. The balance is a neutral term but then again the reality of any cycle. None of the six major forces of the Warcraft sephiroth will attain full control. If one side gets overwhelmed to the point of annihilation, parts of the dominant side will shift to the losing side. That's what balance means here. Don't think about it as always 50%-50%.

    Anyways, we could continue this discussion forever. My views as written before are that judging by the RTS story the titans are probably more powerful than the Old Gods (the Eredar and Nathrezim of the Twisting Nether are more problematic, hence the corruption of Sargeras) while in World of Warcraft there is no supreme power as the forces will constantly confront each other and shift sides.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  18. Razosh

    Razosh

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    Oh but that's where you are dead wrong, Malygos's madness was added in the novel Day of the Dragon which was released prior to WarCraft III, not to mention that two of the three books in the War of the Ancients trilogy were released prior to WoW.

    Well Cenarius was raised and schooled by the first druid, Ysera, she was able to shape-shift with extreme ease, she could have taught this skill to Cenarius.

    I'm not considering even remotly close to everything in WarCraft III to be a myth I just say that this specific scenario that states that Elune slept with the dismembered remnants of an Old God to be a myth.

    Zin-Azshari. (Glory of Azshara (the city was renamed after she was crowned.))

    I guess the Naaru were just more technologically advanced then lil' Sargeras.

    I don't know but it's bull-shit. As I said I was ok when this can't be slain thing was only for the Old Gods but now it's ridiculous because that now pretty much applies to everyone.

    The Titan spirits were stored inside the planets by who knows what, probably the Naaru if anyone seeing as they were togheter with the Void Lords the only to be present at the very beginning, the chronicles tell us that the universe started in an explosion of light and darkness, much like the big bang in our world but the created entities were Naaru and Void Lords. Inside some planets such as Azeroth there rests Titan spirits inside, the planets functioning like an egg. The first planet to "hatch" a titan gave birth to the Titan leader Aman'Thul and over time he found the six other Titans and they joined in his quest. The Void Lords several times attempted to corrupt the Titans but they realized that it wouldn't work, so they decided to corrupt the infant Titans still inside the planets. The problem was the Void Lords had no idea where to find these planets so they created the Old Gods and sent them to every planet they could find in hopes that a few would get lucky and find a planet storing a titan spirit inside.

    Sargeras found a unnamed planet with a titan spirit inside that had been corrupted by the Old Gods of that planet (not the Old Gods located on Azeroth.) When Sargeras saw this he was overwhelmed by fear and split the planet in two with his sword and decided that the world needed to be purged of all life because if a corrupted Titan was ever to be born all would have to kneel before the Void Lords. The other six Titans however did not agree with Sargeras's action, not even Aggramar who had witnessed the horror of a corrupted Titan with his own eyes. The other five however (not Aggramar since he had accompanied Sargeras) told Sargeras of another planet storing a Titan spirit inside and that it housed hope. (We now know that this planet is Azeroth.) Sargeras however did not see as his brethren did he thought them blind and struck them down. The spirits of the Titans survived however despite the fact that their bodies didn't and they traveled to Azeroth and pushed their spirits into the bodies of the Titan Keepers on Azeroth. Sargeras now knew that one planet still remained that had a Titan spirit stored inside so he now set out to find this world.

    That is where the Old Gods comes in for they saw their opportunity in Sargeras, if he was to enter Azeroth they would have their freedom and in the words of Korialstrasz even the mighty Sargeras would be forced to kneel before the Old Gods and in the words of Nozdormu the Old Gods are an evil more ancient and powerful even than Sargeras. The Old Gods also reflect this, in the trilogy we can see the though process of both the Old Gods and Sargeras and the Old Gods seem to be as scared of Sargeras as a human would be of an ant. Not only that but SSargeras is also completly oblivious to the existence of the Old Gods even though the spells maintaining his portal into Azeroth is maintained by them. The third book especially in the trilogy is very clear on the fact that Sargeras is being manipulated by the Old Gods.

    Upon the death of the prime designate (Loken) Algalon was commanded to investigate the status of Azeroth and should his analysis find systemic corruption he would "re-originate" the planet. Algalon however despite finding systemic corruption did decide not to "re-originate" Azeroth because he believed the mortal races able to save it. Algalon at first deemed the curse of flesh to be a systemic corruption and a failure, he saw the creation of the Titans as defiled but we made him realize that the curse of flesh was not a curse but a gift. In Algalons own word: "Perhaps it's you imperfection that which grants you free will, that which allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds, farewell heroes, your planet will be spared."

    But that's the issue as we see in War of the Ancients they are not even remotly on the same level, the Old Gods would annihilate Sargeras and his minions were they given the chance.

    The issue is it's not just an idea it is specifically states in the chronicles that when Aman'Thul slew Y'Shaarj, the Sha and the Well of Eternity were created.

    By whom, the Pantheon, post Pantheon leaving creatures like human, nelves and whatnot, who?

    Well it's a much nicer name than "the Earth". ;)

    Yeah there are a few of those in WoW, though the Keepers mainly serve as allies rather than bosses.

    You should know everything from the previous games in the ideal world but also know which parts are no longer canon. I'm just saying that you seem to ride of the entire WoW lore as non-canon when it's not.

    They did.

    If the Old Gods were to be destroyed the planet would be doomed, this is the only way to salvage it.

    Yes but you probably should know then the WarCraft series include the following books:
    War of the Ancients trilogy
    Day of the Dragon
    Lord of the Clans
    The Last Guardian
    of Blood and Honor.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Yeah, I forgot about hat even though I don't take any books into consideration unless they're written by Chris Metzen :D
    But anyways look at the release dates for War of the Ancients:
    Warcraft: War of the Ancients Trilogy - Wikipedia
    Not one is before RoC.
    But how does Cenarius actually look then? Ysera is a dragon.
    LOL what? Anyways, it's not literally what I meant.
    Are we even understanding each other? I didn't ask for the name. I've asked how the heck did they save other nelves from that city when it should have blown up.
    Which still doesn't answer how titans traveled throughout space :D
    I get it. It's about the metallic core of planets that become personified. Nice. Too bad they didn't think about that earlier.
    Well, that's weird as Sargeras was corrupted by them? Anyways, shouldn't every faction be born in its region as shown on that Sephiroth?
    I'm absolutely glad I didn't play WoW or read any of those books. This all just sounds lame to me.
    Yeah, whatever, still doesn't address the fact that the Pantheon wanted Azeroth dead and then that other planet Sargeras wanted to cut like a tomato not dead. Also, why didn't they do it themselves? Algaloney lied to them that well or convinced them?
    Maybe in WoW cause in WcIII the titans pretty much stomped the Old Gods and left them be monitored by lesser creatures like dragons.
    Well, didn't I just wrote:
    to make you see where I am coming from? I mean WoW has some really neat stuff but mostly it's filler with continuity purposes.
    But they can't be destroyed anyway, right? They return to the void and might come back. It's useless.
    Oh, there are many more books than those. The only one I care about and that has little to no plotholes is:
    and it's written by Chris Metzen.

    Anyways, I've given my opinion. Let's not continue for the sake of bumping the thread. I understand your dedication in what WoW, Warcraft is concerned but I can just not digest everything without not seeing the purpose behind it and the errors that come with it.
     
  20. Strajder

    Strajder

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    I always wondered how can anyone die in WC3 when these are a thing:

    Warcraft III - Humans (Altar of Kings)
    Warcraft III - Orc (Altar of Storms)
    Warcraft III - Nightelf (Altar of Elders)
    Warcraft III - Undead (Altar of Darkness)

    :p