Techtree Contest #7 ~ Super Unit

[Wazzz]

@Derp: That transformation process is pretty awesome :3
so i take it that you're aiming to make a mega final unit that you piece together or something at the end of the game?

@Asomath: Fair enough :3

 

[Asomath]

Oh and shadow. I definently just feel like doing a shadow/nether race.

~Asomath

 

[Astaroth Zion]

Well we just need him to give us a full overview of his idea.
If not, then I'll just probably do it myself once I'm done judging #6.

My concept is far from developed, and I am thinking in other possible approaches at the moment.

For the super Unit that starts as a building, the idea will be that the unit remains neutral toward every player (and invulnerable) till its activated by the custom race. Upon activation it will become a unit and must be hoarded towards the enemy. For this case only the custom race will have direct abilities that interact with it, like setting marks that the unit follows or making the Super Unit to get Enraged (attacking everything on sight for a time).

Also many of the mechanics of the race will depend directly of the super unit, as a resource exchange concept linked to alchemy. Where you need some materials in order to build some units, upgrades, structures and to cast special abilities. (materials different from gold, lumber, or food).

I need to test many more things, see if they are viable ingame and so on. But first idea works around this Super unit that you don't control directly, but you need to direct to archive your goals.

 

[snowman990]

I has 2 race ideas atm. One is kinda like a union of Arabic people and Egyptian Myth, maybe its kinda weird though. And the second one is a race that equip items like weapons and armor to describe their role.

 

[Drunken_Jackal]

Subscribing to this.
I have a Spider themed race idea, where units are based on their spider mama.

 

[Wazzz]

@snowman990: would probably be wisest to save one of those ideas for a later contest, although you're welcome to make 2 races if you want, even though only one will be judged :3

also i don't quite recommend the item system in a warcraft 3 melee setting, as items have a pre-defined role and this can't really be changed around without screwing up some things in the melee game :3

@Astaroth: same applies for you, you have some awesome ideas, but they don't quite fit in with the melee game atmosphere. my personal advice would be to think of how you can change the idea or manipulate it to suit the melee setting of the game rather than making a very far fetched system :3

 

[GhostThruster]

@wazzz: A very far fetched system will get you better points in originality, and depending whether it works or not, in gameplay too. The advice shouldn't be to not stray from the melee game at all, but to just be careful that one doesn't ruin the balance of the race whilst doing so.

@astaroth: what you are thinking is more of changing the gameplay of the entire melee game, instead of inventing up a new race with new unique gameplay. Again, your race must be centered around the super unit. If you cannot control the unit 100% of the time, then your race cannot be centered around the super unit 100% of the time, and then you will lose points in gameplay for not following the theme. By-products of the fact it cannot be controlled all the time includes balance, eg. your race might be crippled if it no longer controls the super unit, if your race functions wholly w/o control of the unit, then it's not really focused on the unit anymore if the race is capable w/o it.

 

[Wazzz]

true true, i wasn't saying to not stray away from it at all, for in many cases it will work quite sufficiently, but as you say, you don't want to ruin the race balance.

the problem i see with the item system:

heroes and units already use items in a way that the melee game is dependent on. making it that units have items to manipulate them or whatever it was you were aiming to do will change the game in areas that shouldn't be changed.

primarily because there are still the item that function regularly, so what are you to do with them?

it also has a bit of an issue with the user interface. it should be an idea to aim to keep the user interface following the theme in the most important areas.

kind of like using heroes as units would be a great idea in a gameplay field where erratic changes like that are expected to be had and it's all balanced accordingly, but doing so in warcraft's melee environment would be hazardous.

alsooo, the gameplay judging should factor in how well the submision fits in with the melee game :3

 

[GhostThruster]

@Wazzz: no it shouldn't. Give a good reason why gameplay should factor this in, without the reason being fulfilled in the balance criteria already.

 

[Wazzz]

that's a reasonable point, except gameplay now factors in more than anything else in the credentials

which would imply that most of the points just go towards what is most 'fun' rather than factoring in structural integrity

perhaps equal point distribution should be reinstated?

 

[GhostThruster]

@Wazzz: something that isn't structured properly won't be fun. Something that isn't structured properly definitely will lose you alot in balance, and possibly the legion. Punishing the over-wackyness of a race, should imbalance be the result of it is reasonable. Punishing a race just because it is different to the melee game is not cool.

 

[Wazzz]

wasn't quite talking about punishing it because it's different to the melee game alone, but more so that a lot of the time, things that do not fit in with the melee game at all have some form of 'awesome system' that makes everybody drool. even judges.

 

[GhostThruster]

So basically, you want to punish people for being unique, even if they executed their ideas with care and balance, because you believe judges will have bias against this? Ignoring the stupidity of this, I have a better idea: leave judging be and find good judges

 

[Wazzz]

no no no, i mean these systems are awesome and all, but it doesn't fit in the melee game, as in it's not balanced at all

and yet they are generally the winners

 

[GhostThruster]

I see your point now. Yes gameplay should be /10 or balance should be /15. At any rate, I believe gameplay is not more important than balance.

 

[Wazzz]

yeah my point exactly :3

so i've been coming up with concepts for my techtree so far:

Enchanter (core melee unit)

- Starts out weaker than other core melee units in overall performance, but with various effects, it can become potent for a short duration. Has 100 Maximum Mana.

- First accessible ability is Sharpen Blade, which increases the Enchanter's Attack Damage for a short duration of time. Autocastable. Costs 75 Mana.

- Second ability is Spelldrinker Shield, which repels the effect of an enemy spell and absorbs +50 Mana.

- Mana Costs and Maximum Mana were chosen in this fashion so that, with full mana, your Enchanters will have a good first hit, and if there are any negative spell effects being cast on the, they will get a good second hit as well.

Wizard (core ranged unit)

- Instead of piercing damage, does Magic damage, making it effective against early game core Footmen. Currently has Unarmored defense type, may be changed to Light to become countered by early core Ranged Infantry.

- Uses various spell effects to enhance combat effectiveness.

- Fireball causes AoE damage on all attacks and burns the ground temporarily after attacks.

- Greater Fireball enhances the attack power of the Fireball, but at the cost of Mana per shot.

- Teleport is a Blink ability, granting mobility to the Wizard.

Golem (Tank/Melee Siege)

- Takes a heavy beating and deals good damage to buildings. Has resistances to magic.

- Is built on the field, absorbing a Worker in the production.

- An ability which allows the Golem to stay alive for a short while after death is being taken into consideration.

- May be re-worked as a 'Mage Armour', which will have effects to be disclosed later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
that's all for now, criticism is welcome :3

 

[GhostThruster]

Well, you didn't really have a point to why you wanted systems that were unique to be marked down, but then I came in and brought the point out of you with my awesome discussioning skills

Btw, pharaoh said last contest I posted too much and hogged attention. Everyone else feel free to post some moar!

 

[Wazzz]

lol conveying a point is oftentimes difficult when you know what it is in your head but don't know how to say it without it sounding wrong

you hog all the attention but it's k cause i hog it too

 

[boomwolf]

I got 2 concept at the time:

1-elemental army that combines units to create higher grade units, with a combinations of all basic units creating the ultimate unit, who is extremely powerful but not very stable.

2-a hybrid between Super Unit and Nomad themes, with one mobile main building that sprouts out workers and such, and consumes local resources at insane pace (everything costs like hell, but you gather super fast) forcing you to keep moving in order to keep building stuff. (and he can fight pretty damn good, think alien mothership.)

 

[-Derp-]

Current concept:

I'm thinking about doing some sort of alien cow race, with the super unit being a structure that can lift off, pick up player's 4x4 structures (farms, towers), and attack with them. It'd be considered a hero and with each structure it picks up it gains ~500 life. Using abilities destroys the structures and decreases its life, but inflicts heavy damage. The super unit can be attacked by both ground and air, making it very vulnerable. It can only pick up 4 structures at a time, has a normal AoE attack, and although it being a hero, it cannot level up. Only one can be built at a time.

 

[Wazzz]

@-Derp-: All my love ♥_♥

@boomwolf: be careful of balance and stuff :3

i'm thinking my Super Unit will be a unit that feeds off of buffs somehow and uses that to its advantage

sort of like the Destroyer in the Undead, only more indepth

either that, or i'll just make the Super Unit some 'Mage Armour' that combines with different casters to gain different effects or something like that

 

[MetalKing1417]

My current Idea works like this:

Your core unit is the Overlord who builds (summons actually) structures. You can only have one of him at a time, and it is expensive to bring him back. As the player tiers up, he too grows more powerful via the chaos ability and he has an entire structrure dedicated soly to upgrading him with new abilities and the power to attack structures (which he innitially does not have). However, should you lose him, there is a chance that some members of your army outside of nano swarms and heroes might try to rebel. For several reasons (Charm, Possess), this unit is targeted as a building.

Nano Swarm: Your worker unit, it acts much like a wisp except that instead of building strucures, it turns into units.

 

[Astaroth Zion]

i'm thinking my Super Unit will be a unit that feeds off of buffs somehow and uses that to its advantage

sort of like the Destroyer in the Undead, only more indepth

either that, or i'll just make the Super Unit some 'Mage Armour' that combines with different casters to gain different effects or something like that

You could make that the super unit passively gets any buff that a unit you have generates. So it will have boosts in attack, magic resistance and so on.

Then the super unit could have a ability that instantly consume every buff it currently has and launch an unique ability in a AOE around it. For example if when your mages launch the greater fireball it creates a 10 seconds buff on them. If the super unit consumes 3-5 g. fireball buffs it will launch a fire storm of variable strength (depending on charges consumed) around itself. Other kind of buffs could create insane combinations not only offensive but also defensive ones (aoe heal, etc)

 

[boomwolf]

@boomwolf: be careful of balance and stuff :3

Well, balance remains identical if you make an identical change in both costs and harvesting speed.

If you gather x10 time faster, but need x10 times the resources, nothing changed but the rate the resources are depleted, and that's kina the point, forcing you to either play super aggressive, or to constantly expand and abandon the depleted sites.


Same goes to x15, x20, x50 and x100. the only thing that changes is depletion rates, and I only need to make sure it does not deplete too fast to be playable.

 

[Kingz]

Well, balance remains identical if you make an identical change in both costs and harvesting speed.

If you gather x10 time faster, but need x10 times the resources, nothing changed but the rate the resources are depleted, and that's kina the point, forcing you to either play super aggressive, or to constantly expand and abandon the depleted sites.


Same goes to x15, x20, x50 and x100. the only thing that changes is depletion rates, and I only need to make sure it does not deplete too fast to be playable.

And what about resource sharing in melee games? :S

 

[Vengeancekael]

If you guys think the judging criteria needs some changes, just post here and I'll take a look at your suggestions.

Also as a reminder, this will most likely start on Friday/Saturday, if however me and Asomath get finished sooner with the judging, then we'll start it sooner as well.
I'm trying hard to get finished sooner, got 5 entries down and 5 left.

 

[snowman990]

@wazzz : I know that the item system would not fit in on melee game, but let just see what would happen to the race. Also I will try my best to make it balanced

Some unit concepts for the Egypt and Arabic race :
Archer
Hitpoint(s): 280 ( can be increased by 180 using excessive training)
Damage : 17 - 19 (+2 per ranged weapon upgrades)
Damage type : Piercing
Armor : 0 (+3 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor Type : Unarmored
Ability:
Multi Arrow ( Require Excessive Training)
Allow the archer to shoot two arrows at two enemies.
Pikeman ( Require Lumber Mill to create)
Hitpoint(s) : 500 ( can be increased by 180 using excessive training)
Damage : 20 - 22 (+1 per melee weapon upgrades)
Damage Type : Normal
Armor : 2 (+2 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor Type : Medium
Ability :
Cleave
Has 20% chance to deal splash damage.
Rider ( Require Worker Gathering, Lumber Mill, and smithy to create)
Hitpoint(s) : 950
Damage : 25 - 30 (+3 per melee weapon upgrades)
Damage Type : Normal
Armor : 4 (+1 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor type : Heavy
Ability :
Charge ( Require excessive training)
The rider charge at target unit/ location. Enemy unit that is hitted by him is knocked back and take 75 damage. The rider will stop charging if there is a unit or doodad on his way.

 

[MetalKing1417]

@wazzz : I know that the item system would not fit in on melee game, but let just see what would happen to the race. Also I will try my best to make it balanced

Some unit concepts for the Egypt and Arabic race :
Archer
Hitpoint(s): 280 ( can be increased by 180 using excessive training)
Damage : 17 - 19 (+2 per ranged weapon upgrades)
Damage type : Piercing
Armor : 0 (+3 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor Type : Unarmored
Ability:
Multi Arrow ( Require Excessive Training)
Allow the archer to shoot two arrows at two enemies.
Pikeman ( Require Lumber Mill to create)
Hitpoint(s) : 500 ( can be increased by 180 using excessive training)
Damage : 20 - 22 (+1 per melee weapon upgrades)
Damage Type : Normal
Armor : 2 (+2 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor Type : Medium
Ability :
Cleave
Has 20% chance to deal splash damage.
Rider ( Require Worker Gathering, Lumber Mill, and smithy to create)
Hitpoint(s) : 950
Damage : 25 - 30 (+3 per melee weapon upgrades)
Damage Type : Normal
Armor : 4 (+1 per warrior armor upgrades)
Armor type : Heavy
Ability :
Charge ( Require excessive training)
The rider charge at target unit/ location. Enemy unit that is hitted by him is knocked back and take 75 damage. The rider will stop charging if there is a unit or doodad on his way.

Hey, Snowman if you're doing an Egypt themed race, this page might be helpful: http://www.wc3c.net/showthread.php?t=95354

 

[GhostThruster]

@kael: I think making gameplay /10 would be good.

 

[snowman990]

@Metalking: thanks, I was desperate to search custom models for the race. I still don't have any idea what should I use for the town hall-type structure

 

[boomwolf]

And what about resource sharing in melee games? :S

That...might prove to be a problem...

I wonder if I can disable it...

But then again, It would ruin some melee aspects, so no good.

 

[kari0003]

@Boomwolf: if you are talking about 10x gathering, lets make the resource trading 1:10 so it wont ruin melee game

Is 2 units working together makes the race superduperunit-like considered a superunit race?
I'm thinking about 2 different units which have to cooperate to be supereffective.
(But they could be considered super units separated. Its just that there are two, and not only one.)

 

[GhostThruster]

@boomwolf: making resource gathering fast and units costly results in forcing players to adopt one or two strategies only, and making shit unbalanced. The former is bad because you are restricting players' playstyles, the latter is also bad because then the race would get 0 for balance.

 

[Astaroth Zion]

@Vengeancekael, I have just checked the provide map, hehe I notices that it has a tavern on it. I think that the "mercenary" heroes can be a problem to the balance of some races.

So I would say that everyone should pay attention to these heroes so they won't bugg your race in the case you got them. Another approach will be that if a hero crashes with a player race, that player should add triggers to make that hero unelectable from the tavern.

 

[-Kobas-]

Damn how many contest there are, this is already 3rd I want to enter

 

[Vengeancekael]

@GT, how about a justification as well? I can't just change gameplay's points to 10 without an explanation

 

[Wazzz]

The primary justification for changing gameplay's points to 10 (or balance's points to 15) was that how fun a race is shouldn't be more important than how balanced it is.

That is, people with whacky, interesting and fun concepts without any balance shouldn't have an edge over people with less interesting ideas that are balanced magnificently. Both should be equal, to inspire contestants to aim to not only make a fun concept, but to strive to make it balanced, too.

 

[Codric]

I will join

EDIT:
Just for the record I will be making a race centered around and angle hero.

 

[Vengeancekael]

Good point Wazzz, I'll change it tomorrow and will probably rewrite the explanations a bit.

 

[GhostThruster]

@kael: offtopic, but you have the greatest avatar in the world.

 

[kari0003]

The Legion (at Judging & Voting) may cause problems, if someone decide not to make soldiers beside the Super Unit.
And custom race selector doesn't work for me :/ (Im missing the AlteredMeleeStartingUnit() and the AlteredMeleeVictoryDefeat() functions)

So what now, when do we start with this?

 

[GhostThruster]

I don't really like 'The Legion' at all. I think instead of that criteria, there should be 'Structure', which judges how well a race is structured (eg. if you have too many units that fulfill the same role, or if you have too few units that don't do everything a race should, or if you lack a tower/shop, or how well individual units & structures fit into their roles). For a case like kari's, where there is only one unit in a techtree and that is the super unit, one would not get marked down in 'Structure' so long as that super unit or a building can harvest resources etc.

 

[boomwolf]

@boomwolf: making resource gathering fast and units costly results in forcing players to adopt one or two strategies only, and making shit unbalanced. The former is bad because you are restricting players' playstyles, the latter is also bad because then the race would get 0 for balance.

Well, I made some basic tests around it, and it seems like it truly makes the game go crasy pretty quick, and throws both balance and reasonable gameplay out the window.

Now, I'm sure it CAN be balanced and well-made, but in another resource gathering system, not the WC3 one.


Moving on....new concept is in development (as the elemental one proves to be irrational for a super unit theme)

 

[Vengeancekael]

In response to the people wanting the gameplay points to be reduced to 10 points, I'm just gonna quote Pharaoh_ since I think he's made a good point:

The reason of raising the points was to encourage people to focus on new and alternative gameplays, meaning new systems, strategies and ways of interacting with the actual race. It has in fact worked, given that many entrants started moving toward the said direction.

As for The Legion, do not be fooled by the theme's main focus "Super Unit", it's a challenge laid out for you, because you're still supposed to manage the different roles of the other unit types of the race, the super unit is just one asset of that. If you only focus on the super unit, then you'll realize that early game will be quite boring because you haven't unlocked your super unit yet and the main point here is to link the whole race to the Super Unit, but that doesn't mean the rest of the race should be just rushed and put together without some original ideas and creativity.

 

[GhostThruster]

The mark-down isn't about discouraging uniqueness, it's about ensuring balance. As Wazzz said, one too many a times have entries been submitted without punishment when they have cool gimmicks yet poor balance. Perhaps buff balance up to /15.

 

[Wazzz]

bumping up balance to /15 would work too, balance is very important, and gameplay shouldn't be any stronger than it

but then one could argue about the other 2 criteria, so maybe they should just all be equal? after all, it's pretty stupid when a 'fun' entry is given more points than a 'well thought out' entry

 

[MetalKing1417]

And custom race selector doesn't work for me :/ (Im missing the AlteredMeleeStartingUnit() and the AlteredMeleeVictoryDefeat() functions)

It is possible that it is because Wazz neglected to change the Melee Initiallization trigger in the map he gave us which still includes create Melee Starting units and Enforce melee Victory/Defeat Conditions as well as adding

• Trigger - Add CreateAlteredMeleeStartingUnits <gen> to the trigger queue (Checking conditions)

to the Initialization funtion.
(I got this by looking up Wazz's previous contest entry)

EDIT:And Now I'm having trouble bringing up wazz's Map to see if I'm right.

Edit2:

EDIT:And Now I'm having trouble bringing up wazz's Map to see if I'm right.

Meh Screw it, I'm just going to try doing the race selector from scratch. The diolog Box no matter what I do keeps refusing to come up for me after basically coping the triggers to a fresh copy of the orriginal Melee map.

 

[Wazzz]

woah, watch out for that double post :/

i recently attempted to put this system in my own custom map which i was working on, and it wasn't working. i tinkered around with it a lot until i finally got it working, so perhaps you can check it out when i release the map (which should be soon :3)

i'll be sure to link you guys here

 

[GhostThruster]

bam and the dirt is gone

 

[boomwolf]

So, I assume this is a fixed version?

Still no ideas though...this is harder then i thought...

EDIT:

DING!
I know what the superunit is, and fun fact is, you really DONT control it! it's "yours" and fights as your unit, but no direct control can get held over it.

No DIRECT control. it can be "motivated" to do stuff.