Techtree Contest #4

[Wazzz]

Yea, no doubt when the contest officially starts there will be more people wanting in on it, especially if we get one of those links at the top of each page =D

 

[Freyleyes]

So for who or what are we waiting?

 

[VeljkoM]

For moderator to approve contest.

 

[Reaper51]

any time now...

 

[VeljkoM]

If this was modeling or terraining contest it would start by now and the new would already be planed...

 

[Freyleyes]

So for what are we waiting? Is this still alive?

 

[VeljkoM]

We are waiting for Christmas miracle. It just seems that this contest isn't attractive enough to be approved.

 

[darkzxx]

wait what does this mean ? create a better race for human/night elves etc
this contest is for modeller only ?
how are you going to create a better race ? without modeling
you can't improve the terrain,add new hero ? you still need a model
or you mean make a new race? that thing also need modeling
so this is for modellers only if i am not wrong ?

 

[VeljkoM]

Of course this isn't modeling only. That's just "cosmetic" part of this competition since it effects just looks of the units. You still need yourself to make new units, spells, abilities, gameplay. Terrain editing is pointless since you are making a teach-tree not a map.

 

[darkzxx]

but you will still score alot for custom models
so the fair thing to do is no imports

 

[VeljkoM]

Actually there is import limit. If you think that its just models that win then check last competition. They are maybe important to voters but judges look at the actual race factors.

 

[darkzxx]

you are understimating 30% but yeah,what you said is true

 

[VeljkoM]

Well last time I got 3rd place and I am not a modeler.

 

[Wazzz]

Yes, but look at the user input. They were voting all for either who did the most work outside of actually creating the techtree (i.e. skins and models), or just who was the most popular. It caused a lot of problems with relying on a public voting system. People died, man.

But yea, import limit is definitely required. If not no imports as was previously suggested. Aesthetics are important (after all, who would play a well designed race that looks like horse shit?), but not so important that you would rely entirely on that alone.

Anyway, WHO THE FUCK IS IN CHARGE OF THIS?? Seriously, we have had a lot of popular feedback on this, and now it's just died down because it's taken so fucking long to approve :/

 

[VeljkoM]

I don't know man I have been waiting more then half of year for this contest and have supported it every time someone made the idea. But instead rest of contests like terraining, moddeling, skin making, get almost instantly approved. I get that cin contest last time was a fail but race contest had 15 submissions.

Honestly I feel like making an unofficial contest.

 

[Wazzz]

If you do, let me know

But yea, all other contests are seemingly approved instantly... kind of unfair, you know.

 

[Pharaoh_]

I should stand by your side more often, guys. I am sorry, but I gave myself a break for a while.
I also see no reason why this contest is not approved yet, but I will let Pyritie know. Stay tuned :]

 

[Pyritie]

yeah yeah I see it

how long do you guys want it to last for?

 

[supertoinkz]

1 month? lol.

 

[Freyleyes]

A month seems fair

 

[Wazzz]

A month would be plenty for the contest to go for, I reckon (it's how long we had last time, and there were at least a few of us that used less than that and we turned out fine =D)

 

[Wraithling]

Just a thought. Want to do away with the public vote system and replace it with a public reviews? Basically I'm imagining that you have to write a few lines about every race entry (or summarize it all - its up to the reviewer; as long as it shows the reviewer has taken time to test the entries for a bit.) It even encourages contestants themselves to review and vote for their peers. Each review here would count as a vote in the current system.

Lets hear it from everyone - how many 'yes's and 'no's to this?

 

[VeljkoM]

That would be ideal but how to actually make voters to write reviews?

 

[Oziris]

I find this contest interesting, I might join. I have a decent idea with the undead. One question thought, where can I find the template map that we should start off with?

 

[VeljkoM]

Last time I think we got it after the contest starts.

 

[Wraithling]

Yup, just wait for the organizer to announce which template to use.

As for the voting suggestion, I'm saying let's do away with public voting. Just an empty thread for people to write reviews/ give feedback. Every post deemed sufficient (by the organizer, probably) would then counts as a vote. Idea could even be expended to include points (as in w3c3), but more of that later if enough people are interested.

 

[VeljkoM]

So instead of poll judge will count number of posts with good enough reviews?

 

[Wraithling]

That was kinda the idea. Not really the hive style of doing things, I admit. I welcome all interested parties to voice out their opinion.

 

[VeljkoM]

Better then public poll that's for sure.

 

[Oziris]

"Count number of posts with good enough reviews" Less people will review then vote, some are lazy that's for sure but still better then random voting. But, then the public voting won't have effectiveness on the result if not many people vote/review considering that the public vote is only 30%.

 

[Silly Lil Ant]

Hmm, I have a few ideas for this... I don't know why I havent commented on here before.

Anyway, a short review of each entry sounds good. Though I think each reviewer should give each entry their own placement. Since depending on the interpritation of the reader, the review might be saying the favoured entry of the reviewer isn't actually the one which they favour.

But then having these reviews and placements together might lead to some repeatition and mindless copy and pasting. So maybe having the placements sent anomalously but with a link verfying that they have written a review.

Though all of what I've just said sounds a bit too much work... But whatever everyone else wants will be fine with me.

 

[Wraithling]

Thanks for the feedback so far

@ Oziris: Yes, I agree that it is better than random voting, which is especially unjustifiable when it comes to mapping related stuff. While I also think that the number of voters will significantly drop if we go by this method, I personally much prefer to see 10 nice reviews than 69 public votes. The reviews here hold more 'value' to me, so to say

@ Silly Lil Ant: So you think after reviewing the entries, voters should give them placements too? Certainly sounds do-able, but I'll leave that up to the organizer. First we'll have to agree on whether we want the review method or not, the rest can come more smoothly later. Copy pasting of multiple reviews can be avoided if we have a fixed template like in Techtree #1. http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/poll-depository-353/techtree-contest-poll-42333/ Back then people are even encouraged to write 5-6 lines of what they like about the race.

So right now I count VeljkoM's one 'yes' and two 'maybe yes's. Anyone wants to give out more elaborations?

 

[Pharaoh_]

1 month period, that's what I thought as well.

Wraithling, although I am a fan of creative reviews, that outline and inline flaws and strong points of the submissions, I doubt people will actually sit themselves down and produce decent paragraphs. We encourage people to vote in a public poll and it's too much already (especially when the contest is not among the most famous ones, e.g. Zephyr/Texture/Modelling contest), so this one might bring up a few issues.

For example, this might be way too time consuming, since the public might not directly discipline with the formal look of their reviews' application. Another chance of time consumption might come out of trial to decode some words into proper English. Many many cases. People don't really rush into approving of their cinematics in the Maps section, yet a contest would require standard and important leaps.

So anyway, my point is that no one should be forced to write down a review, along with their votes, simply because we actually want people to vote, not send them away. No one will care for this contest that much to sucessfully comply with the formality of it; I would need to judge the reviews first, yet public voters are not the contestants to be checked thoroughly.

Unless my words raise any arguments, my opinion would be leaving the classic approach on, but I am perfectly fine with any decision. P.S. I really like this kind of method, that activates the public to perform such a task

About the map sample, I will use an official map of Blizzard's, and.. since it's Christmas it will be all snowy! Stay tuned, once again ^^

 

[Wraithling]

A well thought of reply as usual, Mr. P.

So you agree with doing reviews, theoretically; but find its implementation too troublesome for voters, to the point of possibly making this contest lose even more interest and standing than it already has? I can't say I disagree with this sentiment.

But I would be extremely reckless if in the first place I threw out this suggestion without predicting of making any assumptions of what are the possible fall-outs it may create. I am actually much inspired by wc3c's way of letting only reviews determining the outcome of certain contests, in this case their race building contest @ our very own techtree contest.

Though I am obvious of the possibility that something that works on one site may not work on another (and vice-versa), I'll highlight certain merits of their system that I think we could have a go on, especially with mapping-type contests like these.

In their Race Building #1 & #2 where placings are determined 100% by reviews, there was a large number of reviews, 19 in fact for the #1. Reviews can of course be of varying lengths according to each person's choice (or vocabulary, or time issues). The thing that makes reviews so successful over there is contestants themselves are encourage to make reviews too, because each reviewer then automatically receives a vote himself. (For instance A decides to vote for B, and since A is also a contestant, A gets another bonus vote for himself.) This further encourages contestants to vote for their peers, something that is usually lacking in our contests.

And my idea is not compelling anyone to write a review, just a few lines of what you like about a race, as in our techtree #1. Extensive ones are just a bonus for the contestants. I'm all for seeing a little bit more quality votes over the numbers. So I personally feel it is acceptable collateral if some people feel compelled to stay away, as you've pointed out.

I think that if the time comes when we have enough people open to the idea of doing reviews, then perhaps mapping contests on the hive may be brought up a notch in terms of quality.

So, a 'no' from you right? I respect your point of view of course And although I'm neither a contestant or judge, I'm what they call 'an interested party' so whatever the outcome I will also be accepting it. Anyone else wants to venture an opinion?

 

[Pyritie]

As helpful as the reviews would be, you have to remember that people in general are lazy. If there are say 10 entries, I'd guess about 5-10 people would review them, and if you want that to replace a public poll, it isn't anywhere near as broad.

 

[Wraithling]

I agree.

But I personally think that it is more of whether Hivers are willing to adhere to a new format. People in general are lazy, I can't complain here, but if the 'review way' can achieve reasonable success on other sites, why not here? A little encouragement and enforcement on the administrator's side can do wonders, me thinks.

And I agree too that 5-10 reviews won't be as broad as a public poll. More people involvement is usually good, but leave that to the art contests where decision making is usually quick. Mapping contests involve some downloading and testing, and should be left to people who are dedicated enough to do it.

So, 5-10 reviews plus judging doesn't sound like a shabby contest conclusion to me. I'll take it over a public poll any day, but that's just me.

 

[Freyleyes]

So when are we starting? I can't wait any more

 

[RED BARON]

Woa this still haven't started? Seems like I am lucky. I go inactive for around a month+ due to study and when I get back its still being discussed. Well if the discussing lasts another month I might even get time to participate (or if the contest last more than a month)

 

[Wazzz]

Well, a good back up idea could be that the submitters do the reviews on the maps (except for their own, of course), but of course this could lead to the problem of people strategically downgrading one race for the purpose of pulling ahead with their own (or just taking out whoever looks like they're most likely to win). While this most probably won't happen in a majority enough to influence the final scores too much, this is still a possibility that makes this a little less desirable than having several impartial reviewers (although this is harder to get).

 

[VeljkoM]

And who is actually going to make these ideas in to a real thing?

 

[Oziris]

Uh, come on! My winter holiday wont last a life time. Host this contest already!

 

[VeljkoM]

Hey same thing I said this summer just it was summer vacation tho.

 

[Freyleyes]

Lets do it! University is starting in a month and I can't wait, have the perfect idea

 

[RED BARON]

Lets do it! University is starting in a month and I can't wait, have the perfect idea

You shouldn't be looking forward to uni It kills ones Hive activity at some point..

 

[VeljkoM]

He is looking forward to contest and hopes it starts before uni...its evil place we all know >>

 

[Silly Lil Ant]

when shall the contest start?

 

[Wazzz]

Well, if the majority agrees to the contestants being the judges of all but their own, I reckon that we'd have a pretty good contest on our hands (let's face it, we're going to be playing each other's maps anyway, if not for fun just to compare to our own submitions ^^).

So, I for one say 'aye' to this idea, who's with me and who's against me?

 

[Oziris]

I'm with you all the way! Host it!

 

[VeljkoM]

As long as I have a reason to make and play with new races aye.

 

[Freyleyes]

Lets get this started before the new year