Suggestion: Monks and Mana Issues

[spartan_97]

Like the title said, monks tend to have issues with mana, especially during boss fights.

I've noticed that monks tend to burn through their mana quite quickly and usually on my monk, I'll go oom, even during short boss fights, though this varies as it largely depends on how often Body and Mind procs.

Currently I think the issue is that many of the spells monks rely on to generate threat were mana costed for a caster hero who would put points into Wisdom and usually have MP on gear. And so with potions, and appropriate gear the mana cost of soul strike and crippling curse are perfect. However for a monk who already needs to spend skill points on Agility, Constitution, and at least some in Intellect, having to place points into Wisdom as well is not really an option. Additionally I don't like the idea of placing MP on monk gear.

I would like to say that even with the use of potions, monks can burn through their mana quite quickly and be in a situation where to keep aggro they need to use the body and mind procs to cast soul strike, but are unable to.

The solution that I propose is that on the finishing move of Divine Fist, the monk gains back a small amount of mana, somewhere around 2-5% of the total mana pool. I think the amount should be kept quite low (if it is kept as a percent to scale with increasing levels it should not go above 3-4 actual mana), so as to not remove the mana management aspect of the hero. With this value I think over long boss fights, potions will still need to be used, but it will prolong the time with which monks are actually able to effectively fight and contribute dps in shorter boss fights without the use of potions.

Overall this solution is meant to give back some of the mana used to cast Soul Strike/Heal on Mind and Body procs, as well as the upkeep of Crippling Curse. Like I said above the amount should be kept small, this is not meant so that monks can use their high mana cost skills like Burst of Light, Resurrection, and Symbol of Fury continuously without burning through their mana pool.

I know that since 1.2 is right around the corner, Monks will be getting an AoE taunt that (if it does not have a mana cost) will help with the situation as it stands, but taunts are short lived ways to get aggro on a mob right away, not keep aggro. Additionally Monks are also getting an AoE spell, which if it costs a similar amount of mana to Soul Strike (which I think it will/should) will only exacerbate the current mana issues that Monks face.

Just my thoughts. Although even with this problem, I love my monk .

 

[S0ulseeker]

I think this is actually a quite plausible solution to monk mana issue if implemented correctly and in a way where the amount gained is very insignificant in a long term fight and it would definitely add a twist to the monk class. Perhaps make it a proc to gain a small % of mana on divine fist so it won't ALWAYS give you that 2-3 mana but you will on occasion. or for an alternative solution maybe make it a talent for a spec that allows them to gain the mana on proc for divine fist.

As it is Monks currently need to literally put points into every single stat and if they are forced to place points into wisdom as well it just really hinders there class in the long run.

 

[GunZ-]

Just make so when "Body and Mind" procs, the Abilities that receive It's bonuses also don't cost any Mana.

As for an alternative solution maybe make it a talent for a spec that allows them to gain the mana on proc for divine fist.

No. Just No. All the monks have Mana problems in long fights, you shouldn't let only 1 of the Talent Trees to have this problem fixed and don't give a crap about the others.

 

[S0ulseeker]

I don't think it should be free that defeats the whole purpose. They can cast instant heals with body and mind and it's free? seems fair. There should be some kind of mana management involved into the role but their mana pool is just too low. Alternatively I guess you could always just make monks default mana pool higher at 25 when they change

 

[spartan_97]

Just make so when "Body and Mind" procs, the Abilities that receive It's bonuses also don't cost any Mana.

Yeah that works as well, I didn't even think about that. But I agree with S0ul that it does defeat the purpose, I still want to have to manage mana on a Monk. If the procs to cast SS/Heal are free of mana cost, then I think this solution is going too far, it would basically mean that the only mana a monk would spend is on CC upkeep.

As for an alternative solution maybe make it a talent for a spec that allows them to gain the mana on proc for divine fist.

The reason I didn't want to suggest a talent was because I think this would be an issue for all monks, regardless of the way they spec their talents. And I didn't want to force someone to pick a talent just to solve the mana issue that monks can run into. I think that if a talent is so amazing/fixes a common problem that everyone needs/uses it shouldn't be a talent.

But it is an interesting option that should be explored, because if done right, one talent that did this could offer a different flavour for the monk itself if you went with that tree, and at the same time hopefully wouldn't be one of those talents that everyone needs to take.

Perhaps make it a proc to gain a small % of mana on divine fist so it won't ALWAYS give you that 2-3 mana but you will on occasion

I like this suggestion, but if it is a chance to get mana back, the amount of mana returned should be larger than 2-5%.

 

[GunZ-]

I don't think it should be free that defeats the whole purpose. They can cast instant heals with body and mind and it's free? seems fair. There should be some kind of mana management involved into the role but their mana pool is just too low. Alternatively I guess you could always just make monks default mana pool higher at 25 when they change

You are ignoring the fact that their Heal is low compared to anything, Even Crusader "Emergency" is better and have 0.5s cast time. Having 100 Heals with relatively low chance to proc on a 9 Mana cost (Higher than Emergency, which is 5) and still worst than Emergency (It will be buffed on 1.2) doesn't seem OP to me, not at ALL.

Monk's mana management would still exist, since they still have other abilities that cost Mana... By having "Body and Mind" procs costing no mana, you would fix some of the mana issues on Monk, but not get rid of them entirely.

 

[S0ulseeker]

It's not just there heal it's there soul strike and you COULD spec a monk to be a pretty good healer or dps with soul strike/heal and if it was free I probably would too. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but they have a mana cost for a reason and mana management should not be ignored making it a free proc would require monks to hardly ever use mana then and I ultimately think that defeats the main purpose of this original post.

 

[GunZ-]

It's not just there heal it's there soul strike and you COULD spec a monk to be a pretty good healer or dps with soul strike/heal and if it was free I probably would too. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but they have a mana cost for a reason and mana management should not be ignored making it a free proc would require monks to hardly ever use mana then and I ultimately think that defeats the main purpose of this original post.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that 1.2 will add new abilities for Monks (and those Suggestions are aimed at 1.2), and those will also cost Mana. Monks have to use Crippling curse/Stone Skin/Symbol of Fury/Burst of Light as well as Heal/Soul Strike, and along with 1.2 Abilities AoE Taunt/AoE Damage, their Mana Management will get even harder.

Also, for a Monk healer with 0 Mana cost on Heal, I see no problem with that. You would be sacrificing ALOT of Spellpower (They cann't use Staves or Offhands that normally gives Spellpower) for irregularly healings and It would never be any good to the point It could actually be a True Healer, since you would be relying on a Random proc when people needs Heal almost the entire Fight.

And for the Soul Strike party, Why not? Why not be a Pretty good DPS using Melee attacks and Soul Strikes? They got a DPS Tree for a Reason. But again, you have to consider their Spellpower is way lower than a Pure Caster.

I ultimately think that defeats the main purpose of this original post.

The post is about improving Monks, so It isn't defeating the purpose of it.

 

[spartan_97]

Monk's mana management would still exist, since they still have other abilities that cost Mana... By having "Body and Mind" procs costing no mana, you would fix some of the mana issues on Monk, but not get rid of them entirely.

As I said above, I think this goes too far as a solution to the mana issue. As it stands the only ability I cast regularly aside from the procs is CC. I would have to cast CC at least 14 times to run out of mana in a single fight, do you know how long of a fight that would be? It would be over 3 minutes long. What is the CD on mana potions again? I think it's about that long, someone correct me if I'm wrong, so basically even with other abilities (not 1.2 abilities yet), I would just have a small amount of time to wait before popping another potion, and boom full mana. I think making the body and mind procs free of mana cost is a solution that goes way to far. It does infact remove mana as an issue for Monks.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that 1.2 will add new abilities for Monks, and those will also cost Mana. Monks have to use Crippling curse/Stone Skin/Symbol of Fury/Burst of Light, and with 1.2 Abilities AoE Taunt/AoE Damage, their Mana Management will get even harder.

I addressed this in my initial post. Take a look, it was one of the reasons I think gettting a small amount of mana back will work better overall.

And for the Soul Strike party, Why not? Why not be a Pretty good DPS using Melee attacks and Soul Strikes? They got a DPS Tree for a Reason. But again, you have to consider their Spellpower is way lower than a Pure Caster.

You just described a Monk as they currently play. The only difference atm between a DPS monk and a Tank Monk is that the priority for the stats Intelligence and Constitution is reversed, once you get to about 400 hp.

 

[S0ulseeker]

And for the Soul Strike party, Why not? Why not be a Pretty good DPS using Melee attacks and Soul Strikes? They got a DPS Tree for a Reason. But again, you have to consider their Spellpower is way lower than a Pure Caster.

You just described a Monk as they currently play. The only difference atm between a DPS monk and a Tank Monk is that the priority for the stats Intelligence and Constitution is reversed, once you get to about 400 hp.

Also Soul strike isn't necessarily all about the damage. it's a very high threat spell that you are proposing to make both instant and free, but unlike taunt that threat isn't reduced after some said duration. my soul strike does very insignificant amounts of damage, but that aggro is crucial to an aspiring tank monk.

 

[spartan_97]

Also Soul strike isn't necessarily about the damage. it's a very high threat spell that you are proposing to make both instant and free, but unlike taunt that threat isn't reduced after some said duration.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out about the threat, I had completely forgotten about. Not to mention if as a monk you are dpsing, and you have Steel Body on the damage you do with SS counts as double for purposes of calculating threat. And the contrast with how taunt works (has a CD, and zero mana cost, as well as being instant) is exactly right, if we make Mind and Body procs have no mana cost, you essentially get a single target taunt (yes it doesn't work quite the same in terms of threat, but the effect is similar if you are pushing at the edge of the threat meter), and Monks are getting a taunt in the next version.

 

[GunZ-]

As I said above, I think this goes too far as a solution to the mana issue. As it stands the only ability I cast regularly aside from the procs is CC. I would have to cast CC at least 14 times to run out of mana in a single fight, do you know how long of a fight that would be? It would be over 3 minutes long. What is the CD on mana potions again? I think it's about that long, someone correct me if I'm wrong, so basically even with other abilities (not 1.2 abilities yet), I would just have a small amount of time to wait before popping another potion, and boom full mana. I think making the body and mind procs free of mana cost is a solution that goes way to far. It does infact remove mana as an issue for Monks.

I addressed this in my initial post. Take a look, it was one of the reasons I think gettting a small amount of mana back will work better overall.

You just described a Monk as they currently play. The only difference atm between a DPS monk and a Tank Monk is that the priority for the stats Intelligence and Constitution is reversed, once you get to about 400 hp.

Spartan, you misjudged my entire post.

I was just telling S0ul that there would be no problem in Soul Strike costing no Mana with "Body and Soul" because of Monks SP and their possible role as a DPS, but his point of Threat is indeed correct.

And I read about your initial post, I was just showing S0ul why Monks will have mana problems on the Future.

But If you think Costing no Mana with "Body and Soul" would be too good, make it to cost 50% Mana then, instead of 0%.

 

[Vestra]

Heresssssssssssssssssssssssssssss vestra

Goddamnit I cbf reading all of this. For once in my life I'm going to simply a response:

No, the B&M proc should not allow the spell to be free. Mana management is a crucial factor and bumping those off because you don't want to chuck a couple of points into wisdom is stupid imo.

Yes, a return of a percentage of the monks mana pool is a good idea for the divine fist proc, or, returning mana based on the damage it deals. Some form of scaling that doesn't go over the top. I'm personally fond of the % return based on mana pool as it encourages wisdom to get a better form of replenishment.

No, we don't know what these upcoming spells are going to cost. Don't base improvements off information we don't currently possess. Lets get the details from Zwieb and then we'll all have a better understanding of the skills and how they will affect the Monk. Same situation as the bard. For all we know, those spells could cost fuck all mana. Hell, what's the mana cost on Stone Skin? Something tells me it was 0 but I don't use that shit so I don't remember.


Truthfully, I see my own monk dropping both soul strike and B&M come 1.2. The return isn't that great, I've already dropped heal and I'm up on those new spells. I'm not really concerned about making my monk a shitty excuse for a Bishop.

Lastly, nobody should ever prioritise int over agil on a monk

agil = attack speed
attack speed = procs/agro
procs/agro = tanking
tanking = monk

I smack bitches who wear lunar, I do.

 

[spartan_97]

I was just telling S0ul that there would be no problem in Soul Strike costing no Mana with "Body and Soul" because of Monks SP and their possible role as a DPS

But the point isn't about their SP and DPS, and the relevance of SS costing no mana with regards to those things (or even in regards to Healing with instant Heal). This post was entirely about how Monks currently have a problem with mana, in that they often go oom in the middle of fight, and they need it to take advantage of their procs and continue to generate threat, to hold aggro. And that the obvious solution to the problem of putting skill points into Wisdom is a little ridiculous on a class that already needs three different skills (Agility, Intelligence, Constitution) given a limited amount of skill points.

The idea was this problem should be mitigated, not removed from how a monk plays. My issue with your solution (the intial no mana cost procs) was that in that scenario the mana problem is removed, not mitigated. I think that mana management should be a part of how a monk plays regardless of their role in the party. I think that with your solution (again initial) this aspect would be removed entirely from the class.

But If you think Costing no Mana with "Body and Soul" would be too good, make it to cost 50% Mana then, instead of 0%.

This suggestion addresses the issue better. And I don't have any real objections to it, yet.

However I think (this is not at all objective) I just like the idea of getting mana back on divine fist as a mechanic more.

Mana management is a crucial factor and bumping those off because you don't want to chuck a couple of points into wisdom is stupid imo.

A couple of points? Even three is alot for another stat that is important, as it stands at level 34 I have maxed Agility and Constitution, with one point in Intelligence for a little extra threat, and honestly against good dps(read fully geared DPS, played by someone who knows what they are doing), I can lose aggro (I am fully geared except for the Bandana of the Sun Lord, which for reasons unknown will not drop for me). Not to mention the fact that intelligence adds some insane defensive stats with Steel Body, and that all of the spells used by a Monk are SP based for damage (so regardless of DPS or Tank Monk, you need Intelligence for damage/threat). Added to this is atm, with physical damage being a large part of the way Monks get threat we also need Arp, I'm not suggesting putting points into Strength, but for Monks more than most classes there is a huge range of stats that are important, adding Wisdom to the mix is a little much.

Truthfully, I see my own monk dropping both soul strike and B&M come 1.2. The return isn't that great, I've already dropped heal and I'm up on those new spells. I'm not really concerned about making my monk a shitty excuse for a Bishop.

Lastly, nobody should ever prioritise int over agil on a monk

This is what you are doing, but should every monk have to drop SS and B&M, and if so why does B&M even exists as a skill? It gives a very distinct feel to the Class that no other class has.

And I never said anyone should prioritize Intelligence over Agility for monks. That is clearly insane. Only that they do need a little intelligence.

 

[muzzel]

I dont see why monks shouldnt get some wisdom, even the resistance from wisdom is quite nice for monk tanks. Yes there are many stats a monk benefits from, but at the moment the monk is strong enough (its not like a monk would lack aggro or survivability if he removes few points from const/agi) that you could afford few points of wisdom...

 

[_lycan]

There's no problem with having a class that requires all stats to be leveled, just that it HAS to be rewarded for doing so.

 

[muzzel]

Your reward is more mana. !?!?

 

[Shapy]

i guess you only see how the monk works if he reaches 50. i reckon there has to be done some minor changes because he has to spend points in way more stats than any other. (and this might be a disadvantage on high level)

 

[Vestra]

A couple of points? Even three is alot for another stat that is important, as it stands at level 34 I have maxed Agility and Constitution, with one point in Intelligence for a little extra threat, and honestly against good dps(read fully geared DPS, played by someone who knows what they are doing), I can lose aggro (I am fully geared except for the Bandana of the Sun Lord, which for reasons unknown will not drop for me). Not to mention the fact that intelligence adds some insane defensive stats with Steel Body, and that all of the spells used by a Monk are SP based for damage (so regardless of DPS or Tank Monk, you need Intelligence for damage/threat). Added to this is atm, with physical damage being a large part of the way Monks get threat we also need Arp, I'm not suggesting putting points into Strength, but for Monks more than most classes there is a huge range of stats that are important, adding Wisdom to the mix is a little much.

If your agro is that terrible that you think 3 int will change it, you have problems with your build. Any full agil monk can maintain agro simply based on his auto attack alone, with cripple support. The B&M procs are just bonuses. Quite frankly, I really don't think the minor, and I mean MINOR, damage boost is going to change your general tanking. However more casts, as you've mentioned you've had mana issues, might.

Also this 'someone who knows what they're doing' shit is ridiculous. Auto attacking whilst making use of at max three skills involves no knowledge of tactics. The monk is easy to play, these mana issues are easy to solve. Wisdom. 3 points, everyone is super fun happy good time.

Its not a core stat, no, but months ago wisdom was fucking useless and now that it has a requirement on a class other than a caster, someone is complaining? That shit grinds my gears man. I love you spartan I do but a few points into wisdom isn't going to cost you any runs.

Also, what Shapy said is important to keep in mind. We'll see how monks function at the end of 1.2A. I've never really had issues maintaining agro over people around my level range as a monk, I'm not quite sure how youre losing it but it must be to some significantly geared allies or people that don't manage their agro and nuke shit like idiots.

This is what you are doing, but should every monk have to drop SS and B&M, and if so why does B&M even exists as a skill? It gives a very distinct feel to the Class that no other class has.

And I never said anyone should prioritize Intelligence over Agility for monks. That is clearly insane. Only that they do need a little intelligence.

'course not, thats what the other talent tree is for. I mean, if you want to make a shitty monk be my guest that there is anyone's free choice but don't complain about having fuck all mana when you don't invest in Wisdom.

Three points doesn't hurt, in fact, its 6% ALLR, which is great.

And yeah that last point was just up in the air in case someone started that shit.

 

[spartan_97]

If your agro is that terrible that you think 3 int will change it, you have problems with your build. Any full agil monk can maintain agro simply based on his auto attack alone, with cripple support. The B&M procs are just bonuses. Quite frankly, I really don't think the minor, and I mean MINOR, damage boost is going to change your general tanking. However more casts, as you've mentioned you've had mana issues, might.

I may have over exaggerated a decent amount, usually I steal aggro from whoever I'm tanking with. Okay, more than a decent amount.

Also, what Shapy said is important to keep in mind. We'll see how monks function at the end of 1.2A. I've never really had issues maintaining agro over people around my level range as a monk, I'm not quite sure how youre losing it but it must be to some significantly geared allies or people that don't manage their agro and nuke shit like idiots.

i guess you only see how the monk works if he reaches 50. i reckon there has to be done some minor changes because he has to spend points in way more stats than any other. (and this might be a disadvantage on high level)

Yes I agree with you Vestra and Shapy, we do need to see what 1.2 has in store for the Monk, this is a suggestion only. And what I'm about to say you're going to hate me for Vestra. My point is simply as Shapy said, for a class that needs to spend its points in 4 areas it could be a disadvantage. Again we need to wait and see what happens in 1.2 and what the game looks like at level 50, because if this disadvantage is made up for in other areas who cares? Again wait and see this was a suggestion only, born from S0ul and I's random talking in game that I thought would be a cool idea and feature to a skill I already really like.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think we should wait for the level 50 content before making any hasty decisions on this topic. Monk class is probably the hardest to balance of all classes, as it tends to go from totally overpowered to practically worthless in seconds (remember the time Monks were basicly invulnerable due to a bad steel body formula granting 60%+ evasion?) and is probably also the most gear dependent class in the game, so I wouldn't want to put some mana replenish on the divine fist proccs.

I don't like the general idea of "core" class skills (skills that are required to make the class actually work), so we have to stay away from giving a single skill too many benefits. I even think that Steel Body is way too much of a core skill, but I didn't want to give the monk additional armor and evasion out of nowhere, so the skill was needed. And at least you can drop steel body if you want to go full DPS without tanking.

There's always two ways to balance a class: by balancing gear and by balancing the class itself. I think the mana issue can also be adressed by popping a little bit of extra mana on monk gear. Also, it provides gear alternatives for me to create (monk gear that has mana on it vs. monk gear that has more stats) so that people can decide for the item that better suits their style of playing.
I'm actually aiming for providing gear alternatives in all the future updates and the recent updates introduced a lot of changes that I will base this on (spell haste, stat formula changes, etc.). It's interesting to have more "sidegrade" items in the future, and there definitely will be.

 

[Vestra]

Theres always mana circlet as well guys 8D

 

[Last_Wish]

Heresssssssssssssssssssssssssssss vestra

Lastly, nobody should ever prioritise int over agil on a monk

agil = attack speed
attack speed = procs/agro
procs/agro = tanking
tanking = monk

I smack bitches who wear lunar, I do.

Kinda nice discusiion, which came to a well-based conclusion. But I can't miss this part. You should check your math and reconsider your opinion concerning lunar I believe or at least the background of smacking people, which use it. As long as divine fist gives u like 0,375 damage per hit for every point of SP alone even without crippling curse factor, 15 additional sp on lunar give monk much more even in terms of raw dps then 3 agl points, and if you consider that all elemental damage creates 2 x threat the part where "procs/agro = tanking" lunar is waaaay better then robe of swiftness any day.

The only reason to wear robe over lunar is that sweet 5% evasion on it. Those additional 5% of evasion are going to decrease effective physical damage dealt to you by 8% or so. But as long as your healer doesn't struggle to heal you, I'd pick lunar over robe of swiftness as it increases your dps significantly.

 

[Vestra]

I think you should look into your monk alternatives lol I never, ever said swiftness.

I don't need to consider shit, in the current metagame, Raven > Lunar. The MINOR boosts in cripple/divine procs/B&M procs are heavily outweighed by the raw damage produced by ravens.

You should check your math man, really.

 

[Last_Wish]

I think you should look into your monk alternatives lol I never, ever said swiftness.

I don't need to consider shit, in the current metagame, Raven > Lunar. The MINOR boosts in cripple/divine procs/B&M procs are heavily outweighed by the raw damage produced by ravens.

You should check your math man, really.

Hehe, just chill, I never liked ravens cause it has little to offer to a tanking monk (and monk is tank first of all) as it has 5 less armor and no hp on it. And lets do the math, if you want =)

Not at home so I'll just take number of attacks per second roughly. Lets assume monk makes 20 attacks in 15 sec, i.e 1,333 attacks per second (this will make the comparison easier).

With ravens u gonna get +12 regular damage with each hit, I.e 240 total added damage for the whole period.
With lunar u gonna get 7*1,225*16 added damage for the crippling curse, where 7 is the spellpower factor, 1,225 average bonus damage amplify factor due to the divine fists debuff and 16 is the spellpower provided by lunar, which gives you 137,2 damage in total. Also you are going to have 2xblown divine fist debuffs which inflicts 2,5*1,5*16=60 damage each, so 120 damage added through the divine fists. Thus lunar adds about 257,2 damage in total (which is elemental damage btw, which generate 2xthreat, and also if body and mind procs, it will give you additional 48 elemental damage per proc) while ravens gives u about 240 damage in total. I haven't taken the added attack spd bonus from AGL into account thus, if you also consider more crit on ravens they are equal in terms of rightclick damage imo. But, as I have mentioned earlier, no HP, lower armor thus never considered it as a worthy item for monk if I have smth from d3.

If my logic is flawed, please point it out, I'm curious. And no offence concerning the math, Vestra =) I just believe u underestimated the influence of SP for monk and never bothered to actually do it, thus I actually gave my 2 cents.

Edit: oh, have found 1 mistake myself, the finishing divine fist attack is not affected by debuff itself, which makes the total lunar damage gain 217,2 instead of 257,2. Kinda sad but if body and mind procs at least once it is still better then ravens in terms of raw dps lol. Well, kinda didnt prove my point, which is a bit sad. But I still believe lunar is a decent option for monk.

 

[Vestra]

You're right, I should chill, I just dislike people swinging in with crap but what you're saying here is pretty good input so I'll give you a valid response as its only fair.

The monk has more than enough survivability without Lunar/Swiftness. The stats are extremely manageable and with heals being the chronic nukes they are, 400-450 hp on a monk is fine, the evasion balances that out in most situations.

You have other factors to consider there though:

Divine fist is elemental damage, magic damage is not an element. Ultimately, magic damage is affected by resistance and truthfully has little place on a monk. Divine is more, a team bonus, for mages and the like. It increases no actual damage per hit.

I'm pretty sure shadow damage isn't part of divines debuff either but if you've tested that, props to you. I'll go check it out.

Cripple is mana reliant, this whole thread was about that very issue. Truthfully, I see my monk in future dropping body and mind as relying on a low, low chance to proc minor damage is not much of a bonus for the build I'm going to achieve with the massive bonus that is 'ignore the armor of crippled targets'

That shit is insane, man.

The monk has enough skills to make use of when it comes to mana costs, keeping in mind the potential upcoming skill costs, more sp may not have the bonuses you think when it comes to longer fights. However, in saying that, less durability might end up being my downfall. I suppose we'll see in 1.2A! I was tanking pretty fine in the beta.

Regardless, a point thats irrelevant to now, unless you're swinging down the center talent tree B&M/Soul Strike should actually probably be dropped.

Also, agro has never been an issue for monks. They seem to achieve a pretty decent control simply by auto attacking and crippling, they always have. That talent will pretty much enforce that factor.

Overall though, they are indeed all viable choices, I just disliked that you assumed I'd use swiftness which is purely a tanking armor and has no real use in the current metagame other than assisting lower monks in more durability.

I've got all 3, I just prefer the raw agro produced by ravens to the mana reliant, minor stat bonuses produced by lunar. 50 hp / 10 armor is pretty cool though, thats why that shit is backpacked on my monk 8D

 

[Last_Wish]

Thanks for the reply, Vestra! I know that ignoring armor when the target is under crippling curse effect is pretty devastating and never thought of taking any other tree except for the Martial arts. But, as long as SP is not THAT much worse then raw damage, you should consider it in adjusting your build for the upcoming content. For example the last talent in Martial arts build is divine fist making splash damage, also, as far as I understood, Zwieb wanted to implement an AoE nuke on monk, which is going to be SP dependant. Taking into consideration the fact that 2 last bosses in 1.2 summon minions (broodlings also should be killed asap as they lifesteal)... I think you have already understood my logic

Also as long as monk is first of all tank but not damage dealer and magical damage generates twice threat, even full int monk can become viable, as he will still be able to hold aggro like np and be the new # 1 crowd aggro holder instead of zerk (high evasion makes him ideal in that sence as summoned units generally dont have any nukes).

Darn, can't wait for 1.2 to be released and test some of the ideas, which I have already got =)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Lots of theorycraft going on here on the monk. Nice to see that, as it basicly tells me that the balancing of both talents and stats was done right.

 

[Vestra]

Thanks for the reply, Vestra! I know that ignoring armor when the target is under crippling curse effect is pretty devastating and never thought of taking any other tree except for the Martial arts. But, as long as SP is not THAT much worse then raw damage, you should consider it in adjusting your build for the upcoming content. For example the last talent in Martial arts build is divine fist making splash damage, also, as far as I understood, Zwieb wanted to implement an AoE nuke on monk, which is going to be SP dependant. Taking into consideration the fact that 2 last bosses in 1.2 summon minions (broodlings also should be killed asap as they lifesteal)... I think you have already understood my logic

Also as long as monk is first of all tank but not damage dealer and magical damage generates twice threat, even full int monk can become viable, as he will still be able to hold aggro like np and be the new # 1 crowd aggro holder instead of zerk (high evasion makes him ideal in that sence as summoned units generally dont have any nukes).

Darn, can't wait for 1.2 to be released and test some of the ideas, which I have already got =)

The aoe being SP is a fair point but I'm still not eager on investing bonuses into SP for the divine procs, its barely reliable damage if you have to juke or switch targets rapidly. As the minions stand, they're more than likely to be handled by a meteor or multishot rather than the 10th hit on a beetle.

I suppose we'll see what the upcoming gear is like. I doubt a full int monk is viable, they become a shit bishop. You'd end up with low attack rates, putting your agro at risk unless you are nearly constantly soul striking, hence the shit bishop statement. That, and evasion, even at 50% isn't a reliable form of pure tanking. I'd say full int isn't viable, but more hybrid builds might come available depending on where the metagame takes us.

Keep testing man!