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StarCraft alternate melee in Warcraft

Level 25
Joined
Feb 2, 2006
Messages
1,689
Hi,
I am looking for the best alternate melee Star Craft map for Warcraft III. There has to be one, right? It should feature the 3 races, 2 different custom resources and no heroes and different supply limits etc.
There are so many models on Hive for Star Craft, there must be one good map.

My search found some maps but I am not sure which one features alternate melee and they are all not rated high: Warcraft 3 Custom Maps (multiplayer, campaigns, etc.)

I want to add the Terran race to my map and maybe the other two a bit later.

edit:
I found some maps: [K40$]-Spectre They are not tagged with StarCraft and do not have it in their name :D

Apparently, there was this mod Starcraft Hybrids mod for Warcraft III: Frozen Throne but the races are not exactly like in StarCraft I or II. I would be looking for something as close to the games as possible.
 
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deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 69
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
18,880
There has to be one, right?
From the "good old" days I had this on my PC (video recorded at roughly the same time as its upload date, much more recent than when the mod was made):
@Retera might help you get an idea how to run
But the thing in the above video only works when:
  • I have the warcraft III CD in the literal physical CD rom drive
  • I play using a copy of patch 1.21b that I have on the computer from the year 2006-2008 in a backup folder that I don't know how someone else can get a copy of anymore
  • I play using Project Revolution mod that was installed with a magical installer in the same years (maybe 2006-2008) that required a Starcraft 1 CD rom in order to install
So, I have no idea how to share that with anyone else. The only legal sharing mechanism requires both a physical Warcraft 3 and Starcraft 1 CD at the same time and I'm doubtful that anyone else has both of those anymore. Also, I think this project died when Starcraft 2 was announced. And I was not affiliated with the project, I was just a user who downloaded it back then. It sounded like maybe Blizzard took legal action against them so that Starcraft 2 would be the only 3D starcraft solution back in 2009 but I forget and I'm not sure.

Long story short, when you say, "There has to be one," I really doubt this. Doctoring Warcraft III to be Starcraft is actually hard because of all the technical limitations. Even the weird UI natives on Reforged appear to have a design preference for hacking in a new RPG inventory menu rather than modifying the existing UI to have new features like 3x5 command card or maybe 3x3 command card or an advanced build menu. Everything is "harder to do than it should be" and that's also why I enjoy celebrating this runnable Project Revolution client from the video linked above because they were so dedicated back then to building a Starcraft 1 clone and accordingly there's a huge list of credits on their launcher.

The "Warcraft vs Starcraft" campaign has an unfinished but fairly well done Starcraft 2 Zerg implementation. So, if I were imagining trying to rebuild Starcraft on Warcraft using existing assets and technology, I would be tempted to make a mod using the Terran from "Project Revolution," and the Zerg from "Warcraft vs Starcraft". But maybe that's naive and other more recent stuff is better. I suppose I don't know.

Edit: The description of the Zerg Campaign linked by @deepstrasz indicates that they were pulling assets from both "Warcraft vs Starcraft," and also from the incomplete "Project Revolution" Zerg which makes me think that my impression that making this kind of content is difficult is probably on-point (albeit a little out of date), and that these projects are building off of each other and not starting anew because of the substantial effort required to actually hack the Warcraft III hardcoded systems to visually mimic Starcraft.
 
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thank you for the detailed intervention.
I played a little bit of single player Starcraft Pandora (on my Reforged client, not sure which version that thing was built for) and comparing that versus my gameplay video of Project Revolution linked above, I think I see the obvious outcome of this discussion. I'm not sure I would go so far as to call the gameplay systems of Pandora "a joke," but rather I did not observe any scripts/triggers of any great degree to be on that project so it seems more likely that "Starcraft Pandora" is the work of one guy and "Project Revolution" is the work of a team of people back in the early 2000s who were exceedingly inspired for playing "Starcraft in 3D" when Starcraft 2 did not exist, whereas "Starcraft Pandora" easily looks like it might be the work of 1 guy who did not use any triggers/scripts or used a very minimal amount.

So now we have a problem; I have been traveling a lot recently and will not be at the location of my playable Project Revolution backup for at least another week. Then, even if I try to share it it's not going to work on Reforged or any Warcraft III version that you have probably whereas Planet Pandora or that kind of thing might be unit data that could be dumped directly into a new map you were making.

1688829274009.png

By zooming in on this credits graphic from my video above, we can see that this credits page lists attribution to at least 6 programmers and 12 artists as well as a project leader. And the problem is that in order to do all of this, these guys were overriding files in the Warcraft III install that sometimes are loaded by the Warcraft III game before it loads a map, so then putting them in a map is not functional. So it is possible that you might get 70% functionality from the stuff in my video for example if you offload the contents of the Project Revolution MPQ into your map and try to play the Terran, but several designs and overrides are probably game-wide and wouldn't actually work in a custom map on Reforged. When I said in the video that I wanted Project Revolution to work on Reforged later that year after Reforged would inevitably release, if you listen to my voice inflection you can tell this is sarcasm.

Some people talk about "protected maps" but I think that this would be the next level beyond that. I seem to recall their mod MPQ not having a listfile so to drain its assets out into some external thing that you could add to a map would probably kill time just for that step alone. The Project Revolution install that was on my old computer has an associated map editor that is modified from the Warcraft III editor, and has its own tilesets and races and such that are not compatible with Warcraft 3 directly but merely using its engine and the w3x/w3m format loaded against a different set of tileset and race data.

I'm not sure if there's really anyone who got as far as that old team of Project Revolution developers got on this topic because it would be the inevitable fate -- for anyone who attempts this -- to be demotivated by the realization of how much stuff on Warcraft 3 was hardcoded, for every project. It turns out: Warcraft 3 is not Starcraft. If you want a low-input, high-reward project that lets you have some fun you can do something like Project Pandora. But if you want a high-input, perfect-reward project then (speaking as someone who has not done much Starcraft 2 modding) it is probably better for you to build a Starcraft 2 mod. Conceptually, if we graphed the time input versus project quality for a custom mod, I'm guessing we would see this graph:
1688830102143.png

So then if you want the most highest quality project, what you should do is use Starcraft 2. But if you want to have an optimized higher amount of fun with a shorter amount of time input, you should use Warcraft III. This is kind of how I see it, and also why I have not personally ever motivated myself to do the Starcraft 2 modding. This is also why Reforged's improvements to modding are (in my opinion) stupid, because they disregard this trade off and usually tried to "make the impossible possible somehow" in modding which would mean if we added a third line for Reforged to this graph maybe it would be somewhere between Warcraft III and Starcraft 2 or something, but probably trending towards the higher time input of Starcraft 2 while also not reaching the higher quality end result of Starcraft 2.

I'm bringing this up because if you're looking for something with that edge of "being perfect" like maybe the Starcraft 2 peak at the end of the graph when it exceeds Warcraft III, unfortunately to do that on Warcraft III is likely going to be impossible. For example, on the Project Revolution video that I showed above, the Liftoff function of buildings is using a series of Hero Inventory Items w/ Build Tiny to produce the mouse indicators for where to place Add-Ons to buildings, and I have had games of Project Revolution where I "dropped the items" by realizing this oddity, in which case I would break or crash the Project Revolution mod systems. So what I mean by that is that even achieving this delicate facade of a Starcraft 1 lookalike on Warcraft III is actually a brittle mountain of hacks that falls apart as soon as you see through the illusion. The green/red unit life status visualization is constructed on the screen with a mosaic of icons on an invisible multiboard and it is also possible to hide the multiboard by clicking in the correct location in the corner of the screen, and again break Project Revolution and its mod systems.

Most likely, I would assume you're not going to have any of that crap on Starcraft 2. If you wanted it to emulate Starcraft 1, it would just do it. But setting it up and configuring it might need the number of people on Project Revolution because of all the work involved. It's just that you would get a better result over there on Starcraft 2. So why would anyone, ever, have finished a project like that on Warcraft III in all our years?

We want Warcraft III to be moddable, but at its core it isn't. We were just using it in a way that wasn't intended and enjoying it in a way that came from "us" (the modding people), and not the original programmers of Warcraft III, in many cases.

Edit: As a brainstorm, maybe here are how I see other possible opportunities as well:
1688831219533.png
 
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It's more like bonus races if players like StarCraft.
I think the Ultimate Battle melee mod on Hive was also doing this and had a Terran race. I forget whether it was well made or not but I think it was made to interoperate on WC3 melee maps with normal custom wc3 races like Naga or Night Elves. Maybe you can ask them use their stuff too? It's been a while
 

deepstrasz

Map Reviewer
Level 69
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
18,880
I'm bringing this up because if you're looking for something with that edge of "being perfect" like maybe the Starcraft 2 peak at the end of the graph when it exceeds Warcraft III, unfortunately to do that on Warcraft III is likely going to be impossible.
I wasn't expecting perfect replica but that Pandora map is mostly a reskin. Too few things are StarCraft there.
You would be surprised how many one man maps are there with custom gameplay mechanics, so I don't think it's necessary to have a whole team of programmers for something decent.
 
Level 11
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
237
I played a little bit of single player Starcraft Pandora (on my Reforged client, not sure which version that thing was built for) and comparing that versus my gameplay video of Project Revolution linked above, I think I see the obvious outcome of this discussion. I'm not sure I would go so far as to call the gameplay systems of Pandora "a joke," but rather I did not observe any scripts/triggers of any great degree to be on that project so it seems more likely that "Starcraft Pandora" is the work of one guy and "Project Revolution" is the work of a team of people back in the early 2000s who were exceedingly inspired for playing "Starcraft in 3D" when Starcraft 2 did not exist, whereas "Starcraft Pandora" easily looks like it might be the work of 1 guy who did not use any triggers/scripts or used a very minimal amount.

So now we have a problem; I have been traveling a lot recently and will not be at the location of my playable Project Revolution backup for at least another week. Then, even if I try to share it it's not going to work on Reforged or any Warcraft III version that you have probably whereas Planet Pandora or that kind of thing might be unit data that could be dumped directly into a new map you were making.

View attachment 439580
By zooming in on this credits graphic from my video above, we can see that this credits page lists attribution to at least 6 programmers and 12 artists as well as a project leader. And the problem is that in order to do all of this, these guys were overriding files in the Warcraft III install that sometimes are loaded by the Warcraft III game before it loads a map, so then putting them in a map is not functional. So it is possible that you might get 70% functionality from the stuff in my video for example if you offload the contents of the Project Revolution MPQ into your map and try to play the Terran, but several designs and overrides are probably game-wide and wouldn't actually work in a custom map on Reforged. When I said in the video that I wanted Project Revolution to work on Reforged later that year after Reforged would inevitably release, if you listen to my voice inflection you can tell this is sarcasm.

Some people talk about "protected maps" but I think that this would be the next level beyond that. I seem to recall their mod MPQ not having a listfile so to drain its assets out into some external thing that you could add to a map would probably kill time just for that step alone. The Project Revolution install that was on my old computer has an associated map editor that is modified from the Warcraft III editor, and has its own tilesets and races and such that are not compatible with Warcraft 3 directly but merely using its engine and the w3x/w3m format loaded against a different set of tileset and race data.

I'm not sure if there's really anyone who got as far as that old team of Project Revolution developers got on this topic because it would be the inevitable fate -- for anyone who attempts this -- to be demotivated by the realization of how much stuff on Warcraft 3 was hardcoded, for every project. It turns out: Warcraft 3 is not Starcraft. If you want a low-input, high-reward project that lets you have some fun you can do something like Project Pandora. But if you want a high-input, perfect-reward project then (speaking as someone who has not done much Starcraft 2 modding) it is probably better for you to build a Starcraft 2 mod. Conceptually, if we graphed the time input versus project quality for a custom mod, I'm guessing we would see this graph:
View attachment 439582
So then if you want the most highest quality project, what you should do is use Starcraft 2. But if you want to have an optimized higher amount of fun with a shorter amount of time input, you should use Warcraft III. This is kind of how I see it, and also why I have not personally ever motivated myself to do the Starcraft 2 modding. This is also why Reforged's improvements to modding are (in my opinion) stupid, because they disregard this trade off and usually tried to "make the impossible possible somehow" in modding which would mean if we added a third line for Reforged to this graph maybe it would be somewhere between Warcraft III and Starcraft 2 or something, but probably trending towards the higher time input of Starcraft 2 while also not reaching the higher quality end result of Starcraft 2.

I'm bringing this up because if you're looking for something with that edge of "being perfect" like maybe the Starcraft 2 peak at the end of the graph when it exceeds Warcraft III, unfortunately to do that on Warcraft III is likely going to be impossible. For example, on the Project Revolution video that I showed above, the Liftoff function of buildings is using a series of Hero Inventory Items w/ Build Tiny to produce the mouse indicators for where to place Add-Ons to buildings, and I have had games of Project Revolution where I "dropped the items" by realizing this oddity, in which case I would break or crash the Project Revolution mod systems. So what I mean by that is that even achieving this delicate facade of a Starcraft 1 lookalike on Warcraft III is actually a brittle mountain of hacks that falls apart as soon as you see through the illusion. The green/red unit life status visualization is constructed on the screen with a mosaic of icons on an invisible multiboard and it is also possible to hide the multiboard by clicking in the correct location in the corner of the screen, and again break Project Revolution and its mod systems.

Most likely, I would assume you're not going to have any of that crap on Starcraft 2. If you wanted it to emulate Starcraft 1, it would just do it. But setting it up and configuring it might need the number of people on Project Revolution because of all the work involved. It's just that you would get a better result over there on Starcraft 2. So why would anyone, ever, have finished a project like that on Warcraft III in all our years?

We want Warcraft III to be moddable, but at its core it isn't. We were just using it in a way that wasn't intended and enjoying it in a way that came from "us" (the modding people), and not the original programmers of Warcraft III, in many cases.

Edit: As a brainstorm, maybe here are how I see other possible opportunities as well:
View attachment 439583
Thanks for reminding me of the shattered dreams that was this mod since it was never finished
Also the fact that none of these models were ever ported to SC2, or even used on the Mass Recall remake of SC campaigns.
I would had taken these over what they made for SC2.

In fact during mass recall's time before 7.0 came out, they continued insisting on using general duke's deformed portrait over a good edit out of the terran marine and siege tank that was accurate to the original portrait and now remastered.
same goes to sarah kerrigan, who someone made a edit using her swarm de-infested model.
 
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