Rise of Winterchill 0.71m

[bendnchop]

Wow great idea !

 

[Cryophoenix]

A simple review..
+ Great Heroes
+ Good Items
+ Great Systems!
- Long Load
- FIle too big
Some suggestions
= Try not to use too many custom models because I feel very confused. Try to use skins instead if you can
= Make a load screen

All in all, great map, completely original. Waiting for more updates!

 

[copsychus]

Map size is too big so it's unable to created in multiplayer and the loading time is longer too.

 

[baassee]

Map size is too big so it's unable to created in multiplayer and the loading time is longer too.

No it's not, update your wc3 if that's the case.

 

[Softmints]

Load time has been fixed. The mapsize is large due to the massive volumes of custom content. The breakdown is roughly:

• 2.38mb on sounds.
• 1.19mb on spell/effect models.
• 1.09mb on hero/unit/building models.
• 1.59mb on icons.
• 1.00mb on code.
• 0.98mb on other textures (skins, custom effects).
• 0.25mb on the preview screen.
• 0.30mb on the Legion interface (roughly).
• ???mb on object data and everything else.

This all undergoes a lot of optimisation, so exact figures are hard to get. These days though, internet speeds are good enough that 6-7mb isn't a problem for the majority of players.

 

[mateuspv]

a map is really good in my humble opinion.
I'm trying to play,but Brazilians it is only Bys and endows bys and endows ...

 

[zv27]

I looked at your map at WU and I can only say that it is amazingly done well.
(If you are wondering how I opened the map, the answer is very simple:I Deprotect your map...but do not have to worry,because I have no intention of doing anything with your map)...And yes, at the end I must commend you for the excellent use of functions such as:
"TriggerRegisterTrackableHitEvent"
"TriggerRegisterTrackableTrackEvent"
"CreateTrackable"

As most of us know ("perhaps knows") that these functions are very limited.
And as I said do not worry, I just deleted an open version of the map(just in case)

 

[091846]

its play is ok , it is not long for me
your map are great
just need your update version logs

 

[copsychus]

quite bored, when i created rooms for RoW, the player always leave from room / before / after game begin. so much annoying.

 

[HellRiser94]

Please update this map ass soon ass possible><
Waiting for more heroes

 

[DPL]

The Market thingy is a bit confusing, but overall its a good and interesting map. Btw, I think there is a problem with the siege engine's first spell. I tried it on single player, and did nothing.

 

[copsychus]

i think i found bug. It effects to the night elf creep. It ran only toward the Legion but it didn't attack any enemy. Just walk only

You can watch my replays at the last minutes of this replays.

 

[troylowyee]

Needs AI

Adding ai to the map will help a great deal!

 

[copsychus]

I don't think AI can handle skills that need to set a command.

 

[MogulKahn]

We need changelogs !

 

[Luffy]

AI or no play

 

[Beast(TrOg)]

This is one of my favorite AoS maps. I can see the care that's been taken, and although it takes some getting used to, the game gives a fresh feel that many other AoS' miss on. Though, I would appreciate changelogs.

As for AI, it's not worth the effort. It's a map meant for competent players, not coded AI.

 

[Luffy]

there's a bug with lifesteal recipe item, the one with desolator icon. It doesn't mention about requiring gloves of haste at marketplace, but it does mention about it on recipe item description. So that causes problems if players don't know that gloves of haste is needed for complition. Fix this,
and map needs AI, seriously.

 

[WaterKnight]

Played it again yesterday at the funmap evening. The terrain layout is better now, so we actually got a coherent game. I would recommend to widen the lanes a bit and have some alternative to tree spam/rocks. The sight vision is a bit choppy. The moonwells are hardly profitable/regenerate too fast. What is still bothering me are the difficult controls like the purchasing system.
I took the role of the ranged hero with the Priestess of the Moon model. Her first requires you to define a start point by normal spell cast, the ending point by a following right click. This is very disturbing as the spell has a limited range, so you might apply the right click before the hero started casting and the right click is also used for other actions, such as moving the hero. The ultimate only works when you exactly hit two targets, else it does nothing? Sense? That makes things further undynamic, the ability is without missile or wait time, so it is actually only a matter whether you can click it. The innate's area range is tiny, the regenerative bonus nearly useless later on. A big problem of the game is that the fights are very unsmoothy. You do not get any damage through if you miss the target and the spells have a large cooldown/cost, the towers take an eternity before crumbling and overall, it lacked movement.

In my current RTS projects I tend to give hero spells a multifunctionality, so each one features 2-3 effects, granting a greater flexibility. Of course, these should be intuitive and fitting together.

 

[Softmints]

Played it again yesterday at the funmap evening. The terrain layout is better now, so we actually got a coherent game. I would recommend to widen the lanes a bit and have some alternative to tree spam/rocks. The sight vision is a bit choppy. The moonwells are hardly profitable/regenerate too fast. What is still bothering me are the difficult controls like the purchasing system.
I took the role of the ranged hero with the Priestess of the Moon model. Her first requires you to define a start point by normal spell cast, the ending point by a following right click. This is very disturbing as the spell has a limited range, so you might apply the right click before the hero started casting and the right click is also used for other actions, such as moving the hero. The ultimate only works when you exactly hit two targets, else it does nothing? Sense? That makes things further undynamic, the ability is without missile or wait time, so it is actually only a matter whether you can click it. The innate's area range is tiny, the regenerative bonus nearly useless later on. A big problem of the game is that the fights are very unsmoothy. You do not get any damage through if you miss the target and the spells have a large cooldown/cost, the towers take an eternity before crumbling and overall, it lacked movement.

In my current RTS projects I tend to give hero spells a multifunctionality, so each one features 2-3 effects, granting a greater flexibility. Of course, these should be intuitive and fitting together.

Unconventional aiming for abilities is my style. I wouldn't be surprised if it's jarring the first few times you use a hero's abilities, but because RoW employs different aiming, a wider variety of tactical "situations" can arise.

Tyriphe (the hero you played)'s ultimate, Gemini Strike, as you say, only damages against two units. So to dodge, that, you have to be either alone or in a crowd. I can't think of any other abilities which impose that *constraint* on positioning, so I decided to go with it because it was interesting. Good? That's a matter of taste.

I'm not against giving abilities multiple effects, but sometimes it fits and sometimes it doesn't. You'll notice Lucent Beam grants replenishment, but also a global teleport. Attract damages either a small area for high damage, or large area for low damage. It can also break through trees. Her owls can be kept mobile, or roosted for extra sight range. But then her arrows and ultimate are just situational damage, which is fine too.

As for fights being choppy, RoW is a game of aiming. Because players need to invest effort into their abilities, there must be suitable rewards, and of course, suitable punishments for missing (cooldowns). If players consistently miss, well of course fights will go nowhere. It's when you get good players that the elaborate aiming aspect really shines and the game becomes interesting (or so I find).

Towers and such received changes over the last few versions, should be fine now.

Thanks for commenting.

 

[WaterKnight]

Unconventional aiming for abilities is my style. I wouldn't be surprised if it's jarring the first few times you use a hero's abilities, but because RoW employs different aiming, a wider variety of tactical "situations" can arise.

Which tactical situations would that be? What has this to do with impeding the players' inputs? I mean I can see if you need a compromise because you cannot think of/there is no other option for targeting the desired effect but then I will still mention it as a negative aspect.

What I was finding even more ridiculous was this Dreamwaver's hopping stripe, turning combat on it ultra ugly.

Good? That's a matter of taste.

That's probably the most senseless standard reply. Basically, you like it and do not feel my way.

As for fights being choppy, RoW is a game of aiming.

So you expect to max the abilities requiring aim first? Chopping off alternative tech trees?

Because players need to invest effort into their abilities, there must be suitable rewards, and of course, suitable punishments for missing (cooldowns). If players consistently miss, well of course fights will go nowhere. It's when you get good players that the elaborate aiming aspect really shines and the game becomes interesting (or so I find).

Did not say to consistently miss but the fights just were not fluent. At one side, you make it hard for the players to navigate and then it becomes shittily calculable. An AoS usually aim's at much more depth and such skills are not only meant to hit the enemy but to restrict their movements as you have stated above with Tyriphes ultimate. However, if you give high costs to the spells like big cooldowns, they are only worthwhile when acquiring the unit.

 

[Softmints]

The 'desired effect' is to build a more dynamic/engaging rapport between players. As with any AoS, players try to zone each-other: reach a position where they are safe from enemy abilities, and have a better opportunity to land theirs. Having different (quoth the homepage: ludicrously abstruse) ways to target abilities increases the variety and complexity of zones, and yes, I like this. This complexity of zones is what I am calling a matter of taste, because juggling more variables can be distracting/confusing/etc. and is probably not for everyone.

I've never heard anyone voice complaints about Attract's targeting before; most of the regulars have told me it's quite fluid. It is of course never my intention to impede the player's input, unless where necessary to provide them with more options. Some abilities (such as Caber Toss) have typed commands which disable features such as autocasting, and these are routinely added in response to player feedback.

Dreamweaver's Haze is pretty crazy . I don't think anyone's vocally against it though, so I don't have any plans to alter it.

The majority of cooldowns in the game lie in the range of 10-20 seconds, which is about right for abilities which can be used often, but not spammed to the point where missing (and consequently player skill) doesn't matter. Usually only ultimates have long cooldowns.

I don't think players feel the need to max any abilities first. Mana costs quickly worsen as abilities are levelled up, so it's usually good to spread out skill points early to save mana. Alternatively, maxing abilities makes them more effective, but you can't use them as often. It's a trade-off.

Did not say to consistently miss but the fights just were not fluent. At one side, you make it hard for the players to navigate and then it becomes shittily calculable.

I'm not sure how to interpret this. Would you mind elaborating a bit?

 

[WaterKnight]

Having different (quoth the homepage: ludicrously abstruse) ways to target abilities increases the variety and complexity of zones

I only referred to the input controls. Having more "strange"/rare abilities like firing off a line damage ability starting from a chosen location to another one surely turns zoning extraordinary though I would not forcibly consider it as more complex.

The majority of cooldowns in the game lie in the range of 10-20 seconds, which is about right for abilities which can be used often, but not spammed to the point where missing (and consequently player skill) doesn't matter. Usually only ultimates have long cooldowns.

Why do you think a more spammy spell (5-8 seconds) would be missing-friendly? You will still lack behind if your opponent hits. Of course, it's better replacable and you can deal damage even after some of your moves were avoided but otherwise a hero will be practically two-shot, the random factor increases (you may hit or miss the target by luck and it's crucial) and the damage numbers would not be very flexible since you either get the cooldown-worthy damage through or nothing out of it. 10-20 seconds cooldown in comparison to being able to bite the dust within 1-2 seconds.

I don't think players feel the need to max any abilities first. Mana costs quickly worsen as abilities are levelled up, so it's usually good to spread out skill points early to save mana. Alternatively, maxing abilities makes them more effective, but you can't use them as often. It's a trade-off.

Whether mana costs and the like should rise with higher ability level is a problem of many games and maps. You may hurt yourself just by levelling it up. Is this a compromise or do you see it as a gambit requiring the player to decide since he/she cannot turn back?

I'm not sure how to interpret this. Would you mind elaborating a bit?

Have already spoken of the input mechanics and also the weirdness with Dreamweaver's Haze. In a confrontation, you have to quickly come to decisions and, as stated before, it's unlikely to know if you hit the target (hello randomity) and you have to be exactly aware of all different actions' strength, which you do not get to see much of, by the way, because of minor frequency. You cannot just burn your spells as you intensified the punishment though it may also polarizingly strike in the other direction. So it's badly calculable.

 

[Softmints]

I only referred to the input controls. Having more "strange"/rare abilities like firing off a line damage ability starting from a chosen location to another one surely turns zoning extraordinary though I would not forcibly consider it as more complex.

I use 'complex' in the sense of more factors to consider, such as proximity to other units, trees, angles for knockback, facing angle, etc., which many RoW abilities take as arguments.

Why do you think a more spammy spell (5-8 seconds) would be missing-friendly? You will still lack behind if your opponent hits.

Spammy abilities are 'missing friendly': if you miss you can just take another shot! This is not a bad thing (Hakkar's Whip, among others, is fine), but they shouldn't be as hard to land or effective as less spammy ones.

Of course, it's better replacable and you can deal damage even after some of your moves were avoided but otherwise a hero will be practically two-shot, the random factor increases (you may hit or miss the target by luck and it's crucial) and the damage numbers would not be very flexible since you either get the cooldown-worthy damage through or nothing out of it. 10-20 seconds cooldown in comparison to being able to bite the dust within 1-2 seconds.

Yes, RoW can be a high-stakes game, but I maintain there's no luck involved: only good or bad predictions. Having long cooldowns means players generally don't land lucky shots, because they're not throwing spells randomly: it's too expensive. Abilities which deal high situational damage (infamously Hand of Death) should be either appropriately easy to avoid, or appropriately hard to land.

Whether mana costs and the like should rise with higher ability level is a problem of many games and maps. You may hurt yourself just by levelling it up. Is this a compromise or do you see it as a gambit requiring the player to decide since he/she cannot turn back?

I consider it primarily an incentive to encourage players to diversify skill builds and try new things.

Have already spoken of the input mechanics and also the weirdness with Dreamweaver's Haze. In a confrontation, you have to quickly come to decisions and, as stated before, it's unlikely to know if you hit the target (hello randomity) and you have to be exactly aware of all different actions' strength, which you do not get to see much of, by the way, because of minor frequency. You cannot just burn your spells as you intensified the punishment though it may also polarizingly strike in the other direction. So it's badly calculable.

Haze's free movement zone creates unpredictability, which heroes will usually either avoid because it's risky, or embrace because there's an opportunity (to initiate, escape). No denying it's weird .

Learning which heroes and abilities do what is part of learning the ropes for any game. I admit that being so familiar with the map, I'm not in a position to say how new players approach it (though I happily take advice on this whenever it's available).

 

[WaterKnight]

but I maintain there's no luck involved: only good or bad predictions.

blub

I use 'complex' in the sense of more factors to consider, such as proximity to other units, trees, angles for knockback, facing angle, etc., which many RoW abilities take as arguments.

me2, to be using the mentioned ones does not require a high level of weirdness in abilities.

Having long cooldowns means players generally don't land lucky shots, because they're not throwing spells randomly: it's too expensive.

I do not say that they should try to be lucky but it may happen and it would be much less critical with spammy spells because more attempts approximate the actual probability/actual skill. And of course, higher cooldowns decrease the flexibility and it's more boring. What I still wanted to ask: Any chance for cooldown reduction items?

 

[Softmints]

blub

Luck is an attack-only stat . I tried a fixed counter approach and it wasn't much good .

I do not say that they should try to be lucky but it may happen and it would be much less critical with spammy spells because more attempts approximate the actual probability/actual skill. And of course, higher cooldowns decrease the flexibility and it's more boring. What I still wanted to ask: Any chance for cooldown reduction items?

Cooldown reduction items: too hard to implement. The order in which I balance abilities is:

(Here is some cool/interesting aiming) => (How much reward is landing that worth?) => (How much can I let the player spam this?)​

The problem with doing this backwards is that the cool/interesting aiming (being subjective here ofc) has a certain investment of effort on the player's part, and if the reward doesn't match the effort, the player isn't motivated to use it at all no matter how spammy it is.

I don't expect to be altering cooldowns on a global scale at this point in development, so my advice is sticking with heroes who naturally have spammy abilities such as Hakkar, Lich, Iofur, and Kukulza. Can't please everyone, etc.

Thanks for the comments though.

 

[Garfield1337]

Cooldown reduction items: too hard to implement.

You could use LUA to generate many levels for each ability where each would differ by cooldown and make a system that would change ability's cd depending on the reduction. Though it probably wouldn't be worth it as it would, as far as i know, increase loading time significantly.

 

[WaterKnight]

Still this luck and any others influence the use of abilities as well. Would you not call it luck if both players predict badly but one hits his/her stuff? Or if you just cannot have a better prediction because you have no sight range for example and do not completely know what up to which point the enemy has thought of (since that is nearly impossible and may be altered by every little thing the opposite perceives outside of the game you get no clue of).

When I say cooldown reduction I would expect max 20%. The reason for me asking was more that I wanted to know how your technical solution would look like though.

 

[091846]

damn it no change log , what is with the new update ? i love this game ..... it sucks to have no changelog........

 

[Vengeancekael]

I've been looking at already approved maps and I've noticed that your map weirdly enough got 5/5 from Cweener, although I don't actually see an actual review pointing out the improvements made for the map to deserve a higher rating than the previous one (3/5).
And also is there a changelog whatsoever?

Because I really do not agree with the high rating, I agree, it's a very polished map, with an ok terrain, nothing spectacular though, also a neat hero selection system, but that's not really a gameplay changer.
However, originality-wise it's the same old AOS idea, nothing new or fresh, maybe a cool interface for the shop, but no fresh gameplay systems or anything.
And, this definitely is not balanced. In any way.
I've played 3 matches with friends, both from the hive and also users on the battle.net and the matches were quite weird.
The guy with the orange whip is quite strong and can massacre heroes in the beginning easily due to heroes being extremely weak and they also have low amounts of hp, I don't really know why you did that, it's certainly not something that makes the player feel good about himself. And the support heroes are just terribly squishy, hard to lane with and they can barely deal any damage to tanks/dps heroes.
Also I'm not really sure why the 'no stunning abilities' idea is actually balancing the gameplay in any way, stuns would actually be great counters, to cancel an oncoming skill cast and escape really fast, however some heroes don't have any abilities that stun the enemy/slow them down or anything and thus fleeing with them is quite hard.
So unless you have any explanations for this, I'll leave it as is.
If not, I'll set the rating back to 3/5. Already I can set it to 4/5 for being nothing original, but that's a different subject.

 

[D a w n]

kinda have to agree with Kael. While you do have a few really cool concepts for skills and some heroes also got some nice synergy between their skills, this is still one of the most unbalanced AoS maps I have played so far. And some of the systems are really complicated and not that nice for a face paced map like an aos(example: the shop)

 

[Brambleclaw]

To the above ^ "Fast"* Nice fail there. You could say the same thing about Item combinations with DOTA if you didn't have the community and comprehensive guides to compensate for the difficulty and harsh community for beginners. This can be said for all advanced MOA style maps.

There are far more unbalanced maps if you have a look around. The systems are presented well and i had no problem using them.

For/Against the above

The map its self is well layed out and the systems are well detailed.
It reminds me 90% of LoL kind of gameplay. And the interface is also at that level.

That is the level of a game played widely used today so that is very good.


The item buying system is also usefull and very well detailed. Likey =D

Alot of work was put into this, and it is extremly well presented in both design and gameplay. It is easy to get used to and the systems at hand quickly become a second nature.

If it had a community such as Dota comprehensive guides would create a fine balance between hero combos and item combinations to lead to the strongest possible a hero can be. This would then lead to better and easier balancing.

The AOS idea is actually a genre called MOA now. So on the orginallity front it can kinda get dumbed :L

Otherwise you could say ALL TD MAPS ARe the same. OR ALL RTS MAps are the same. Just with different units and styles :L

As it still must fit the genre its in, this is defined on base characteristics.

The idea of No stun is a Unique in AOS maps :L so therefore it is a defining characteristic.


Terrain is adequate, alot like dota's though.


"Could be called a Dota clone"
Balancing like Dota is dependant on the Team's composition. Therefore it can be heavly bias just to the people who wait before picking to choose a counter to the opponents choice.

Early feed tips the game heavilly to ones favour.=Not very noob friendly.

Like a 90% Moa's will produce a harsh community because of this.

AWMAGUMMI 7.4MB :L 0.6 mb to go and you hit dar maximum dar. Watch out =P

 

[Softmints]

I've been looking at already approved maps and I've noticed that your map weirdly enough got 5/5 from Cweener, although I don't actually see an actual review pointing out the improvements made for the map to deserve a higher rating than the previous one (3/5).
And also is there a changelog whatsoever?

Because I really do not agree with the high rating, I agree, it's a very polished map, with an ok terrain, nothing spectacular though, also a neat hero selection system, but that's not really a gameplay changer.
However, originality-wise it's the same old AOS idea, nothing new or fresh, maybe a cool interface for the shop, but no fresh gameplay systems or anything.
And, this definitely is not balanced. In any way.
I've played 3 matches with friends, both from the hive and also users on the battle.net and the matches were quite weird.
The guy with the orange whip is quite strong and can massacre heroes in the beginning easily due to heroes being extremely weak and they also have low amounts of hp, I don't really know why you did that, it's certainly not something that makes the player feel good about himself. And the support heroes are just terribly squishy, hard to lane with and they can barely deal any damage to tanks/dps heroes.
Also I'm not really sure why the 'no stunning abilities' idea is actually balancing the gameplay in any way, stuns would actually be great counters, to cancel an oncoming skill cast and escape really fast, however some heroes don't have any abilities that stun the enemy/slow them down or anything and thus fleeing with them is quite hard.
So unless you have any explanations for this, I'll leave it as is.
If not, I'll set the rating back to 3/5. Already I can set it to 4/5 for being nothing original, but that's a different subject.

kinda have to agree with Kael. While you do have a few really cool concepts for skills and some heroes also got some nice synergy between their skills, this is still one of the most unbalanced AoS maps I have played so far. And some of the systems are really complicated and not that nice for a face paced map like an aos(example: the shop)

Okay, lots to get through here. I'll try to be brief on each point:

• The first rating was from December 2008. I later requested a re-evaluation in the Admin Contact Forum because over two years and 50 versions had gone by, and the request was granted. Evidently, Cweener didn't write an extensive review. If that's a problem, feel free to write one yourself.
  With regards to the map's rating, I don't know what the policy for one moderator disagreeing with another's rating is, so if you remain intent on changing it, I would prefer to start a thread in the map moderation forum where we can discuss it with the admins.
  
• There is a detailed changelog in F9 (Quests).
  
• The terrain is designed purely for function, not for aesthetics. It is important that the terrain be flat so players can easily calculate angles, and that trees be abundant as they have a crucial function in gameplay. Given these constraints, I think I've done an appreciable job.
  
• "no fresh gameplay systems".
  Please reference another AoS with at least three of the following:
  • No hard stuns.
  • Gold for hitting towers.
  • All abilities aimed.
  • No conflicting items.
  • Items which modify radius/duration/luck.
  • All heroes with diverse stat-based ability scaling allowing for a variety of builds.
  • Knockback dealing bonus damage when targets hit obstacles.
  
  Please understand that originality is not the holy grail when it comes to maps. There are a lot of features I've trimmed off over the last few months which were original, but not necessary or cohesive to core gameplay. As a result, the defining features of RoW are more subtle, but combine to give very distinct gameplay.
  
• Balance is an ongoing pursuit, and tends to fluctuate because the map is updated frequently. Hakkar is in the top tier right now, but he's not alone up there, and he isn't dominating the hero pool. Supports are a different role and aren't expected to be putting tanks in the dumpster. Played properly with a good team (it's a team game), they can be highly effective.
  
• "they also have low amounts of hp, I don't really know why you did that, it's certainly not something that makes the player feel good about himself."
  If a player has self-esteem issues, I would point them towards alternative map of mine: Soft Escape.
  
• "I'm not really sure why the 'no stunning abilities' idea is actually balancing the gameplay in any way".
  If it's the same for both sides, balance is unaffected; not having hard stuns is a design decision. There are numerous interrupts which are not stuns, such as knockbacks.
  
• "some of the systems are really complicated and not that nice for a face paced map like an aos(example: the shop)".
  There is often confusion about this. The Marketplace interface is primarily for viewing items. For buying items, use the -i command, which is very easy. "-i boots" buys boots. I could labour on this point, but it's well explained on the homepage (link in my signature).

I welcome any further discussion you might have on the matter.

 

[Alyssa]

However, originality-wise it's the same old AOS idea, nothing new or fresh, maybe a cool interface for the shop, but no fresh gameplay systems or anything.

Same old AoS idea? So after the original map of a genre is made, none are allowed to follow? All RPGs and TDs should automatically be dismissed for being unoriginal because they've been done already? RoW has several things, as Soft posted above, that separates itself from maps (so it's not the same old AoS) such as DoE, AotZ, ToB, AoM, DotA, LoL, etc., that have redundant concepts themselves.

I've played 3 matches

I'm sorry but 3 games is not enough to really evaluate a map like RoW in my opinion. RoW is not a straight forward game, like say, a generic RPG or hero defense, where you can play a couple times and really understand core concepts and the depth of what can happen. After my first game, I knew I'd need to play atleast a dozen games to really understand multiple builds, skills, counters, and mechanics.

The guy with the orange whip is quite strong and can massacre heroes in the beginning easily due to heroes being extremely weak and they also have low amounts of hp, I don't really know why you did that, it's certainly not something that makes the player feel good about himself. And the support heroes are just terribly squishy, hard to lane with and they can barely deal any damage to tanks/dps heroes.

A couple things:

-Some heroes may seem overpowered when playing a map for the first time, however Hakkar (orange whip guy) won't do that against people who know what they are doing, so it's a difference of knowledge/skill rather than him being overpowered off the bat.

-This is meant to be a 5v5 map (4v4 minimum) and supports have their potential maximized when laning with an ally. There are roles in RoW, so supports aren't going to be doing loads of damage early game to enemies.

Also I'm not really sure why the 'no stunning abilities' idea is actually balancing the gameplay in any way, stuns would actually be great counters, to cancel an oncoming skill cast and escape really fast, however some heroes don't have any abilities that stun the enemy/slow them down or anything and thus fleeing with them is quite hard.

Because point-click stuns/disables are overdone in most other AoS maps and require little-to-no skill to pull off (ie cleverly disguised Storm Bolts, ensnares, etc.). This is where RoW separates itself, involving aimed abilities and no hard disables. Knockbacks can cancel some skill casts and channels when aimed correctly. As well, not every hero needs a gap closer, disable, or escape. If someone was caught out of position or overextended as a hero without a 'stun/slow' and died because of it, perhaps the player should play smarter when he revives.

 

[Oxygen]

Would you not call it luck if both players predict badly but one hits his/her stuff? Or if you just cannot have a better prediction because you have no sight range for example and do not completely know what up to which point the enemy has thought of (since that is nearly impossible and may be altered by every little thing the opposite perceives outside of the game you get no clue of).

This isn't dice-roll luck as much as it's heavily axed towards the better player. If I asked "your mom" to blind shoot arrows using ability X, and then compared her succes rate with mine, I can assure you that I would end up much better. Replace my mom with any other player, the case is the same - because I played this more than anyone here, I can certainly better asses success on skillshots, blindfolded or not.


As for the general comments, I can assure you that none of you have played RoW enough to even remotely begin to understand how it plays out. The irony is that the project will be left to be evaluated by people who do not have the required knowledge to do so properly. And by that I mean that you have to experience the map in a true clean inhouse environment with people to explain how stuff works to truly appreciate the map. Which seldom occurs on its own. A shame, really.

 

[WaterKnight]

Otherwise you could say ALL TD MAPS ARe the same. OR ALL RTS MAps are the same. Just with different units and styles :L

Yes, if you search in the low quality area that just copy everything. They can be greatly altered with different mechanics and concepts. As for TDs, there are so many more than AoS that I guess it's less likely to recognize the variety. Softmints presents "Gold for hitting towers" as a fresh gameplay system. This may matter in theory and pro-play but I have not even noticed it yet, so it has not changed my view/playstyle of the map so far and this can transfer to what you perceive as significant in TDs/RTSs/other maps.

"I'm not really sure why the 'no stunning abilities' idea is actually balancing the gameplay in any way".
If it's the same for both sides, balance is unaffected; not having hard stuns is a design decision. There are numerous interrupts which are not stuns, such as knockbacks.

Do not get the statement with "Balance would be unaffected if I gave the same stunning abilities to both sides.". As with any other ability and composition, they can be differentiated by a lot, it makes a huge distinction whom and how you give it to. And even if everyone had the same abilities, that would alter gameplay possibilities and player controls, which are parts of balance. Btw, you have spoken of "all abilities are aimed" above in fresh gameplay systems. I can grasp how you mean that but want to remind you that almost every ability of every map needs to be somehow aimed (to be effective at least). You cannot throw a Stormbolt without sight of the target, positioning, paying attention to your cooldowns, mana, others in team, what counters the enemy possesses, timing, ambush etc. Your objective seems to be that there is "always" a chance to dodge a critical situation or how was this design decision thought?

This isn't dice-roll luck as much as it's heavily axed towards the better player. If I asked "your mom" to blind shoot arrows using ability X, and then compared her succes rate with mine, I can assure you that I would end up much better. Replace my mom with any other player, the case is the same - because I played this more than anyone here, I can certainly better asses success on skillshots, blindfolded or not.

The scenario I described was more like what if they both had about the same skill, same handicap and needed to hit the target in rotation with only 10% hit chance each. Who hits first (without the other one succeeding in the same round), wins. The result would only balance out with greater iteration of the game. You may say you are confident to hit more than 10% with your higher skill but it also depends on the abilities of your enemy, which might increase similarly.

As for the general comments, I can assure you that none of you have played RoW enough to even remotely begin to understand how it plays out. The irony is that the project will be left to be evaluated by people who do not have the required knowledge to do so properly. And by that I mean that you have to experience the map in a true clean inhouse environment with people to explain how stuff works to truly appreciate the map. Which seldom occurs on its own. A shame, really.

Now, that can always be said "the map is a lot better when players know more of it". While I doubt this total unpredictability in general and that those you mentioned hit the knowledge bar/as if it would be so one-dimensional, I was targeting the not-so-pro audience and accounting for those belongs to balance. Softmints might surely neglect these players if it was a hindrance for his/her targets however. Guess I won't learn better of this game then.

 

[Softmints]

..."Gold for hitting towers" as a fresh gameplay system. ...it has not changed my view/playstyle of the map so far and this can transfer to what you perceive as significant in TDs/RTSs/other maps.

In most AoS maps, it takes significant effort to unlock the gold reward for destroying a tower. Combined with being away from your own tower being risky due to ganks, pushing often gets delayed until that reward can be claimed safely (usually in team pushes). In contrast, having a direct and immediate reward for pushing makes it viable at all stages of the game, and balances it nicely against the risk of being ganked.

It's not important unless the metagame is well-established amongst players, and has no adverse affect on new players' exepctations.

Do not get the statement with "Balance would be unaffected if I gave the same stunning abilities to both sides.". As with any other ability and composition, they can be differentiated by a lot, it makes a huge distinction whom and how you give it to. And even if everyone had the same abilities, that would alter gameplay possibilities and player controls, which are parts of balance.

Dunno how to interpret that. My point was: balance is numbers; if everyone's stun durations are 0, then it's still balanced.

...every ability of every map needs to be somehow aimed .

Most people seem to know what I mean when I say aiming.

Your objective seems to be that there is "always" a chance to dodge a critical situation or how was this design decision thought?

Not really . I have aimed abilities because I enjoy using them, and the players seem to agree. I don't have stuns because I don't enjoy being stunned. And again, players seem to agree that less downtime, especially at critical moments like when players are exchanging spells, is a good thing.

I was targeting the not-so-pro audience and accounting for those belongs to balance. Softmints might surely neglect these players if it was a hindrance for his/her targets however.

I don't aim to neglect new or casual players, but I know the experience I want to deliver, and there is a learning curve before players are familiar enough with the mechanics to be able to get that experience. If you have suggestions for making that curve shallower without detracting from the top end, I'm all ears.

 

[Frotty]

I dont know if they got fixed in the most recent version since i didnt play it afaik, but some bugy that kept on being present since 061a:

• If you use the market via GUI and buy an item, the icons aren't updated (players gold amount should be rechecked and icons appear red)
• Dont know if willed but The Void Masochist can drop coins when kileld by alies and adds a soul to that felhound hero
• With any kind of leap/tree destroying spell you can kill the treewall on the right side/ right bottom corner and get behind it

Small things:

• Presents should have playercolor..
• buy-commands should be readable somewhere
• If you are at enemy fountain you get lifedereg but afair no buffSFX
• if you get hit with poison that makes dmg when you move it needs to have a more distinct SFX/explanation. Almost no1 reads the buff tooltips and tries to run away.

 

[WaterKnight]

Dunno how to interpret that. My point was: balance is numbers; if everyone's stun durations are 0, then it's still balanced.

Now I get your contradiction. Nobody claimed the game would be unfair in its current state, just that disables would add to variety and homing abilities turn it better calculable, so it would be easilier playable and not as weird.

Most people seem to know what I mean when I say aiming.

Including me but just wanted to remind you that there are other forms, so "all aiming" is not necessarily a plus point. How are active items thought to be controlled btw, of which you have some? Mouse only and NumBlock hotkeys are knowingly atrocious.

Not really . I have aimed abilities because I enjoy using them, and the players seem to agree. I don't have stuns because I don't enjoy being stunned. And again, players seem to agree that less downtime, especially at critical moments like when players are exchanging spells, is a good thing.

And at the same time you increase cooldowns and make abilities that can only be cast on exactly two enemies else resulting in nothing. That reduces freedom and flexibility, too.

 

[Cozythrias]

Just wow.

EDIT:

This game really has HIGH potential. This is a very good AoS game. I hope you continue updating this game, add more items and please add GAME MODES, All Pick mode please.

Tho I would like to report some 'bugs'/'typo'

When you use the 'Ranger' in the Legion side, her two skill descriptions are mixed up.

 

[archsorin1]

nicee i like this map

 

[WaterKnight]

And can you tell us what you like about this map to manifest your feeling, transforming it to a reasonable evaluation that helps the project, to actually give a meaning?

 

[Softmints]

Quick note: We have a new video in the map description: give it a look!

I dont know if they got fixed in the most recent version since i didnt play it afaik, but some bugy that kept on being present since 061a:

• If you use the market via GUI and buy an item, the icons aren't updated (players gold amount should be rechecked and icons appear red)
• Dont know if willed but The Void Masochist can drop coins when kileld by alies and adds a soul to that felhound hero
• With any kind of leap/tree destroying spell you can kill the treewall on the right side/ right bottom corner and get behind it

Small things:

• Presents should have playercolor..
• buy-commands should be readable somewhere
• If you are at enemy fountain you get lifedereg but afair no buffSFX
• if you get hit with poison that makes dmg when you move it needs to have a more distinct SFX/explanation. Almost no1 reads the buff tooltips and tries to run away.

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I think most of the bugs mentioned have been fixed by now. I tried playercolours on presents a while back and didn't get far, but I might take another look at it soon. Voismasochists are intended to drop coins. -i commands are readable in the Marketplace; for example, the item titled Adelaster can be purchased with the orange shortcut -i ade, or its full name -i adelaster.

Poison is graphically distinct, but new players understandably don't know what it does. In our games, we just tell new players in chat, but as we're not always there, I'll add a new tip activated on being poisoned.

...disables would add to variety and homing abilities turn it better calculable, so it would be easilier playable and not as weird.

..."all aiming" is not necessarily a plus point.

I don't derive much satisfaction from landing homing abilities, and obviously can't enjoy dodging them, so I generally don't include them. I don't enjoy being completely disabled (stun, sleep), so I don't include those either. They're features inherited from an RTS background, which the AoS genre should have shed a long time ago. There are plenty of easier maps in the genre around for those who prefer them.

With respect to variety, I'm excluding one kind of disable, and one way to aim an ability. That leaves a lot of room for variety, as the map itself should attest.

How are active items thought to be controlled btw, of which you have some? Mouse only and NumBlock hotkeys are knowingly atrocious.

That's out of my hands. Use Warkeys? I just use numpad myself.

And at the same time you increase cooldowns and make abilities that can only be cast on exactly two enemies else resulting in nothing. That reduces freedom and flexibility, too.

Moderately long cooldowns are necessary for aiming to have any meaning. If an ability is too spammy/available, there's no incentive to make an effort because missing is inconsequential. Furthermore, having downtime after using an ability provides strategic depth and opportunities; Oracle for example is very difficult to kill while he has his abilities ready, so he needs to be baited, or taken down with numbers.

Yes, lots of abilities are situational, and part of the game is getting your hero into situations which suit you, and out of situations which suit the opponent. Sun Tzu has a lot to say about this. If you don't like Ty, don't play her is all I can suggest.

Just wow.

EDIT:

This game really has HIGH potential. This is a very good AoS game. I hope you continue updating this game, add more items and please add GAME MODES, All Pick mode please.

Tho I would like to report some 'bugs'/'typo'

When you use the 'Ranger' in the Legion side, her two skill descriptions are mixed up.

I'm glad you liked it. I'll take a look at Pyth's descriptions; do you know exactly which ones are mixed up and where?

I have no plans to include more game modes, aside from possibly a tournament draft. All pick would be a headache to balance which I do not intend to give myself.

 

[WaterKnight]

I don't enjoy being completely disabled (stun, sleep), so I don't include those either.

What's with the poison at 0:15? The panda is rather disabled while in iceblock and some of the knockbacks are kind of hard.

With respect to variety, I'm excluding one kind of disable, and one way to aim an ability. That leaves a lot of room for variety, as the map itself should attest.

Your promotional video shows some movement and "spectacular" combos tearing up victim heroes within seconds even with the positions being totally off and in random scenarios. But what I would like to see is some structural setup displaying the standard tactics that is not destroyed by a sudden mistake/one-shot.

That's out of my hands. Use Warkeys? I just use numpad myself.

It's not about what I use. You should raise the question when designing the game. So you currently expect numpad or that people load Warkeys on their own.

Moderately long cooldowns are necessary for aiming to have any meaning. If an ability is too spammy/available, there's no incentive to make an effort because missing is inconsequential.
Furthermore, having downtime after using an ability provides strategic depth and opportunities; Oracle for example is very difficult to kill while he has his abilities ready, so he needs to be baited, or taken down with numbers.

If the effect stacks up well, it won't be inconsequential. Yeah, I did not mean that you should turn everything to 4 seconds but the avoidance of down-time was your point.

If you don't like Ty, don't play her is all I can suggest.

What if I only do not like that one ability? And should I force everyone else in the game to not pick her? Winning is not everything, I would also like to face a reasonable challenge when playing against her or her as a teammate and after all, she belongs to the game.

 

[Frotty]

Hi, great you still develop this.
I just played 062o, and didn't notice many changes:
Druid
If you played druid 1-2 times, it's basically the best (left team) hero. He is ranged, Spells are aoe, global range, selfbuff, disable - the Lighting Spell has just insane dmg output once you learn how to use it.
The global cast range and dmg increae per distance is just so damn overpowered, especially against melee heros and in mid. You can nuke a hero standing by a msochist e.g. so easily, with help of a mate you can even hit heros half across the map and 1hit them basically.
I had the vampire hero against the druids once, and there was nothing I could do. He could harass me as ranged all the time, I didn't have any ranged spells and when I wanted to get near he just used gale and ran away without getting 1 hit.
Even when we get near with a gank or invis, he can use whirlwind and disable us long enough to run away/wait for mana/cd on gale.
And I also played him a few times myself and always won easily, even against players who knew the map and items and some heros.
Def op.

That tauren melee/ranged swapper
Oh well I wanted to test out this new? Hero, just to find out it's total garbage.
There are again, few useable dmgspells, only 1 ranged, so you are lost against ranged in melee mode, like most other melee heros, you will most certainly never hit with double-edge except you got rocket boots, your ult ist just taunt which wont inflict ranged heros too.
He was so squichy, I don#t remeber what my lane enmy was, some ranged tho and I got my ass handed to me, because the poison in ranged mode does 0! really 0 dmg andeven with attributes you can't buff it up enough.
oh an like most other Spells in Row, the main dmg-spell doesn't use the main attribute of the hero. why?
I had the emperor once, but then I lost against the panda in lategame because he could improve his rolling-dmg so much he one-hit me on ice, even with health & armor items.

Gameplay
RoW is SloW. Really. It's not that I have abig problem with that, but the gameplay speed isn't spread out balanced on the gametime.
In the beginning creeps kill you with like 7 hits and you can't even get near the tower, but with a few kills you can buy a few items and get the tower down very easily, if the lane partner ganks or is back for shopping.
The pushing and snowballing is very high in this aspect, and the main buildings are so near to the mid tower, that we couldn't even really defend it when the mid was gone.

the time is kinda like that
|---------------Early-------------||-----Mid----||--End--| Game
In early you can't do shit (except you are druid)and have to boringly help killing creeps, the only harass are ranged heros against melee.
This takes so long and nothing happens, maybe with more players some action would happen, but you canÄt get this map full, also because it's like 8 mb and no1 @garena wants to wait that long.
From mid starts the ganking phase. You have your dmg spells lvl 3-4 and some items for dmg & mana/health. All heros with a stun/knockback/movement attack get so strong now because they can disable/knockback an enemy and also chase better (with movement). With a 2nd hero you can't even run most the time.
Most melee heros without a movement/ranged spell that doesnt depend on some other attribute and gets multiplied with 0.000002 are garbage now.
You can't gank, you can't stun7disable, you can't chase.
You're getting raped in the ass.
When the enemies killed like 4-5 enemys or just 4-5 more than your team, it's over(unless you got druid because he can gangrape a whole team) because you can take a tower down now with 2-3 creepwaves and in mid let creeps attack the main so easily, that the enemys always have to defend and can't farm gold at towers.

Thats also another thing..the gold for tower attacking is kinda funny, but imbalanced for the team the gets it first. If you can farm long enough at a tower you get much much more gold and better items.

Items...why wouldn't any hero get adelaster first? Chasing/First blood is mostly undoable or kamikaze, so just farm your mana a bit.
It's really a profit and almost no1 buys it lvl1, buys some other stuff thats mostly useless so early.
Is there even a recipe for Str-gauntlets lvl 3? Couldn't find any.

Ugh. RoW is a bitch. To be honest, I would wanna play it because of the interesting heros/spells/(items), the automatic killgold and refined game mechanics, but the balance and the control is just horrendous!!!
Some heros are soo strong and versatile, others are so poor and weak.
Some Spells just require some aim and attribute-buff, for others you have to read the tooltip 100x times to even get what to do/what the spell does(ofc it does no dmg :troll and click 5 times and get a spell thats worse than some straight missiles, like the draenei one....
Damn man.

The difficulty thing you display at heropick is also totally off.
The draenai is hard, because you have to control your invisibility??
I used that once in a while to escape or just to init, the missile does so much dmg and heals you up so much, if the enemy hero would pick up the meat I would kill him in melee combat with my 4 illusions.

Oh and that shielditems that casts healingwave is way too strong. 15% chance? my ass, that thing casts so damn often you can't even get the hero wearing it to 1/2 hp so a nuke would kill him.

 

[Softmints]

What's with the poison at 0:15? The panda is rather disabled while in iceblock and some of the knockbacks are kind of hard.

What panda? The polar bear's Hibernate is a complete disable, but because the trapped units are invulnerable, it seems to work out. Probably could be improved somehow; the regulars were saying they want a way for it to interact with Rollout more. Knockbacks last half a second at most: they're interrupts, but hardly "disables".

Your promotional video shows some movement and "spectacular" combos tearing up victim heroes within seconds even with the positions being totally off and in random scenarios. But what I would like to see is some structural setup displaying the standard tactics that is not destroyed by a sudden mistake/one-shot.

Yeah it's a trick shots video. It's difficult to populate inhouses, so most games have a few regulars, a few pubs, no teamwork, and are pretty casual. Hence, I don't have good replays of recent proper games.

Inhouse games see more use of Ivory Ring, Baton, team abilities like Ogake's Mortal Mastery, and heroes like Nadir who suddenly become viable and work wonders. Combos like Psy + Geo, or Hakkar + Maw are awesome with coordinated players. Better players can use the abilities differently too; one of the regulars is known for using Psychic's Barrier very offensively. I wish I could play them more often!

It's not about what I use. You should raise the question when designing the game. So you currently expect numpad or that people load Warkeys on their own.

What do other maps do to resolve this issue?

If the effect stacks up well, it won't be inconsequential. Yeah, I did not mean that you should turn everything to 4 seconds but the avoidance of down-time was your point.

Kukulza is a hero who does this by building momentum off his low(ish) cooldown abilities.

What if I only do not like that one ability? And should I force everyone else in the game to not pick her? Winning is not everything, I would also like to face a reasonable challenge when playing against her or her as a teammate and after all, she belongs to the game.

I don't know of anyone else who takes issue with her. Impose an inhouse ban?

Thanks for the response.

Hi, great you still develop this.
I just played 062o, and didn't notice many changes:

Thanks for taking the time to write up a reply, much appreciated.

Druid
...
Def op.

Tempest is not considered imbalanced by me or the regulars at the moment (0.62o). Gale has a 60 second cooldown, and he's very squishy.

That tauren melee/ranged swapper
Oh well I wanted to test out this new? Hero, just to find out it's total garbage.

Outrunner is not considered imbalanced (too strong or too weak) by me or the regulars at the moment (0.62o). Right now, building either a lot of strength (Lothars + Comets) or a lot of agility (Stormstrike) seems to work well: try that. Just use ranged form on the lane early. His abilities (Stampede, Taunt, and Flak) still need work.

the poison in ranged mode does 0! really 0 dmg andeven with attributes you can't buff it up enough.

0 damage? That sounds like a bug to me. Are you sure you weren't playing against Garry or a shielded Lich?

Spells in Row, the main dmg-spell doesn't use the main attribute of the hero. why?

To open more item build options. Primary attribute already gives you damage, so having other attributes on abilities means you can build in different directions.

Gameplay
RoW is SloW.

the time is kinda like that
|---------------Early-------------||-----Mid----||--End--| Game
In early you can't do shit (except you are druid)and have to boringly help killing creeps, the only harass are ranged heros against melee.

Vamp, Emperor, Flisk, and Kukulza (among others) are melee heroes with excellent harass if they use their abilities. Stop buying Adelaster and get Mirror Shield, or at least block so you can survive running up and casting.

This takes so long and nothing happens, maybe with more players some action would happen, but you canÄt get this map full, also because it's like 8 mb and no1 @garena wants to wait that long.

This isn't really a problem on B.net. I suppose I could release a lite version without music which would be about 2.5mb smaller if that helps.

Thats also another thing..the gold for tower attacking is kinda funny, but imbalanced for the team the gets it first. If you can farm long enough at a tower you get much much more gold and better items.

If the enemy team lets you hammer their towers without retaliating, they're doing it wrong.

Items...why wouldn't any hero get adelaster first? Chasing/First blood is mostly undoable or kamikaze, so just farm your mana a bit.

Often, people prefer survivability in the form of block/regen, or like to get an early start on their recipe components. Even boots first is viable on many heroes.

Turtle Shell provides 8 seconds of immunity to troops, it was an item intended to introduce more early game action. Maybe that's worth a shot?

Ugh. RoW is a bitch. To be honest, I would wanna play it because of the interesting heros/spells/(items), the automatic killgold and refined game mechanics, but the balance and the control is just horrendous!!!

Alas! As we play in different environments, it's not easy for me to judge how you see balance. If you send me replays, it would help with this, because the people I play with can generally handle a good Tempest, etc., so I'm not used to him dominating like you say he does.

If a hero is too hard to control, try one of the easier heroes I guess? I'm open to feedback on any of this stuff.

The difficulty thing you display at heropick is also totally off.

If you have particular changes you'd like to suggest, please go ahead. Flisk used to be a lot harder I suppose.

Oh and that shielditems that casts healingwave is way too strong.

Hyperion isn't considered imbalanced at this time to my knowledge.

 

[Luffy]

I strongly advice and demand AI

 

[Softmints]

I strongly advice and demand AI

No plans for it, and too much time/effort required.

 

[Luffy]

Find someone for it, please

 

[jpnzln]

yes it might be a good idea to implement AI because some people might not have anyone to play with.