[Bug] Rescued dead creatures spontaniously explode.

[Dr Super Good]

Version

Current release version on US servers.​

What should happen

When a creature is killed in combat it falls into a semi-dead state before dying permanently. If a drone drags a semi-dead creature to its lair (bed) it will be resurrected at minimum health and left to rest a while. If it is left too long as semi-dead it will die permanently.​

What does happen

A drone drags a semi-dead creature to its lair (bed) to recover. This creature is resurrected as expected and left to recover a while. Some times this works as expected and the creature makes a full recovery. Other times the creature proceeds to spontaneously explode and die permanently shortly after being placed in its lair (bed) without any logical reason.​

Steps to recreate

Playing 2vAI. Proceeded to rush up a fully functioning hive and train an army. Later battles (starting at 10) suffered some deaths due to their high levels but these were quickly and efficiently recovered by drones before they could decay. This is when troop loss was starting to be noticed and levelling up became almost impossible due to constantly having to retrain. Finally at Wave 13/15 an army was no longer able to hold and upon closer observation of the dead it was noticed that they were dying when put into their beds in a semi-dead state with plenty of timer time spare.​

This is quite a critical bug as it means an important mechanic is not functioning as intended. At least that is what it appears as I do not recall any such thing happening in Dungeon Keeper 2 when I played it.

 

[Bibendus]

Could it be that they were hungry? If that's the case creatures slowly loose health and a low hp creature may die on that way.
If you can confirm that could be the problem I may add some kind of control on that

 

[Dr Super Good]

It is quite possible that it was the case. The creatures were just involved in fighting for an extended period and may not have eaten before hand. I will run an experiment next time I play to try and prove it (slapping a hungry creature until it is semi-dead and then letting it recover).

It might be a good idea to revive semi-dead creatures at 50% food to prevent this. It might not make entire sense why they suddenly gain food but it should not be abuse-able and prevent this problem from occurring. An alternative fix would be to suspend hunger damage when creatures are sleeping, so they take a tiny bit of damage when they wake up but since they are largely rehealed by then it makes little difference.

 

[Bibendus]

Ok it was the case, I forgot it but it was intented to instantly kill creatures that were falling unconscious at 0 food.
With the next patch creatures won't die by starving anymore, however the happiness loss while at 0 food or 0 rest has been doubled.

Soon I should upload the test map with this and other changes (maybe this weekend)

 

[Trenix]

Ok it was the case, I forgot it but it was intented to instantly kill creatures that were falling unconscious at 0 food.
With the next patch creatures won't die by starving anymore, however the happiness loss while at 0 food or 0 rest has been doubled.

Soon I should upload the test map with this and other changes (maybe this weekend)

The way I see the unconscious and the hunger mechanic...

Unconscious creatures should just have their general needs paused and if they're not saved by a drone in a reasonable time, they should die permanently. Once saved, their needs should be resumed and their happiness and food should get reduced, since they were unconscious.

A creature that's in a fight should also have their needs paused, no creature should die because of a need during a fight, especially not starvation. Therefore after a fight you should have more than enough time to get your creatures back to their beds. With this mechanic, if a creature dies because of starvation, it was completely on you.

A creature that has their hunger at 0 should be taking damage overtime and should not die instantly. However once they do die, they should not become unconscious, instead they should die permanently because the keeper has failed to fulfill the creature's needs and should be punished for it.

 

[Dr Super Good]

A creature that has their hunger at 0 should be taking damage overtime and should not die instantly. However once they do die, they should not become unconscious, instead they should die permanently because the keeper has failed to fulfill the creature's needs and should be punished for it.

Except they can leave the dungeon if the keeper is failing to fufill their needs, that is the point of happiness. If food damage is added it should be able to knock them unconscious like any other damage for a huge penalty on happiness. Chances are they will leave when they wake up anyway which makes sense.

The problem here was that they died during combat because they did not eat before they left equivalently. They were saved even and put in a bed. But unless you spammed reheal on them there was a high chance they would die before they rehealed sleeping due to the hunger damage and it literally looked like they exploded.

A mechanic with permanent death makes sense if the creatures only eat once every 10-15 minutes (so a battle would need to be very long indeed to reduce that) but they need to eat much more regularly which is the problem. I can literally have food, sleep and work right next to each other and they will still be hungry during a battle.

 

[Trenix]

Except they can leave the dungeon if the keeper is failing to fufill their needs, that is the point of happiness. If food damage is added it should be able to knock them unconscious like any other damage for a huge penalty on happiness. Chances are they will leave when they wake up anyway which makes sense.

The problem here was that they died during combat because they did not eat before they left equivalently. They were saved even and put in a bed. But unless you spammed reheal on them there was a high chance they would die before they rehealed sleeping due to the hunger damage and it literally looked like they exploded.

A mechanic with permanent death makes sense if the creatures only eat once every 10-15 minutes (so a battle would need to be very long indeed to reduce that) but they need to eat much more regularly which is the problem. I can literally have food, sleep and work right next to each other and they will still be hungry during a battle.

I thought of a new way to improve these mechanics. When a creature is in combat, have all of their needs be completely turned off. After they get out of combat, turn them back on. When a creature is hungry, have them take damage overtime until their health reaches one. The purpose is to make hungry creatures be very weak without having to go overboard and making them go unconscious or die.

 

[Dr Super Good]

If any form of sense were applied to food, they would only start to take damage after a considerable time away from food. Additionally if they are doing something they burn through food faster. Seeing how there is no idea of considerable time in this game it is not even worth having a mechanic where creatures take damage due to hunger.

If a creature is doing something (eg training, working, fighting etc) it consumes through food faster than if it is idle (guard room, walking around randomly, recreational rooms when implemented etc). When a creature becomes hungry (food below certain margin) then it will be more heavily weighted to seeking food. A creature could become so hungry that eventually it will even stop fighting to seek food but this could be based on creature type and level (higher level creatures ignore hunger more). When they start to seek food they lose happiness. The rate depends on creature (hungrier creatures get more unhappy) and how hungry they are (the more famished, the faster they lose happiness). When they do eat they are refunded some happiness up to a point (if they walked too far or waited around too long then they have a net loss of happiness).

The response to persistent hungriness could vary from creature to creature. Some will become less willing to do stuff and hang around food sources until hunger is met satisfactorily (they become glutinous as food is scarce). Hungry creatures should be so unhappy that they up and leave.

Additionally a global dungeon parameter could be introduced, rations. This varies the threshold at which creatures will decide to get food and how much they eat. More rations would mean more trips to food and additional food consumed putting strain on food sources in exchange for happiness. Low rations would make creatures go to food sources less and eat less meaning they work harder but are less happy.

When creatures are incapacitated they lose a bit of hunger and then keep draining it at idle rate. Their rest is then set to negative state making them require more rest for a period of time until it recovers. They also suffer a massive unhappiness boost due to the death itself and so might up and leave once they revive unless sufficiently happy. When they wake up they might be hungry and then seek food but the same mechanics of time to eat and hunger apply the degradation rate.

 

[Trenix]

If any form of sense were applied to food, they would only start to take damage after a considerable time away from food. Additionally if they are doing something they burn through food faster. Seeing how there is no idea of considerable time in this game it is not even worth having a mechanic where creatures take damage due to hunger.

If a creature is doing something (eg training, working, fighting etc) it consumes through food faster than if it is idle (guard room, walking around randomly, recreational rooms when implemented etc). When a creature becomes hungry (food below certain margin) then it will be more heavily weighted to seeking food. A creature could become so hungry that eventually it will even stop fighting to seek food but this could be based on creature type and level (higher level creatures ignore hunger more). When they start to seek food they lose happiness. The rate depends on creature (hungrier creatures get more unhappy) and how hungry they are (the more famished, the faster they lose happiness). When they do eat they are refunded some happiness up to a point (if they walked too far or waited around too long then they have a net loss of happiness).

The response to persistent hungriness could vary from creature to creature. Some will become less willing to do stuff and hang around food sources until hunger is met satisfactorily (they become glutinous as food is scarce). Hungry creatures should be so unhappy that they up and leave.

Additionally a global dungeon parameter could be introduced, rations. This varies the threshold at which creatures will decide to get food and how much they eat. More rations would mean more trips to food and additional food consumed putting strain on food sources in exchange for happiness. Low rations would make creatures go to food sources less and eat less meaning they work harder but are less happy.

When creatures are incapacitated they lose a bit of hunger and then keep draining it at idle rate. Their rest is then set to negative state making them require more rest for a period of time until it recovers. They also suffer a massive unhappiness boost due to the death itself and so might up and leave once they revive unless sufficiently happy. When they wake up they might be hungry and then seek food but the same mechanics of time to eat and hunger apply the degradation rate.

I think you're overcomplicating the hunger system. Dungeon Keeper isn't a city builder, simulator, or a real-time strategy; it's a god game. Hunger is just a minor aspect of the game, not deserving of such a big overhaul where time and actions matter nor does it need a rations system. I'm not sure if you've played the original game before, but if you did you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. These mechanics should be kept simple but at the same time effective.

The purpose of hunger is not just about creature management, it can be used against your enemies. I remember in DK I've taken over my enemy's hatcheries, sold them, and practically starved them out without any combat involved. Most of their creatures died from starvation, left because they were unhappy, and whatever creatures they had left, had such low health that they were just easy kills for me. Taking damage from hunger is part of the game mechanics that add strategy. I would really hate to see it removed entirely and you need understand losing high level creatures is a common thing in DK and should be expected. You're not going to lose because your level 10 creature died. In DK a simple trap can easily take one out.

 

[Dr Super Good]

You're not going to lose because your level 10 creature died.

Yes if you can revive him in time for the next wave. However if not, good luck fighting off those 20 level 10 creatures with level 1s!

In PvP it is likely different as both teams will probably lose creatures equally when attacking. Obviously you need to try and minimize losses still or you will lose but that is the same of all games.

 

[Trenix]

Yes if you can revive him in time for the next wave. However if not, good luck fighting off those 20 level 10 creatures with level 1s!

That is why we have traps and spells, so you're able to fight back. Yet currently the combat isn't entirely finished, nor are traps or spells. Playing invasion in DK, I killed entire armies with traps and doors alone. Think the problem is that the game is still in beta, not the hunger mechanic.

 

[Bibendus]

Creatures dying from starving was actually ridiculous, a sane minded creature would just leave before dying