personal thoughts on Shadowlands: Bastion

[Winimasker]

the path should be broadening the heart instead of the vengeance, guess this angel-like being asking for Uther to revenge after is not even an angel-like being herself. when Uther said "for justice" instead of for the vengeance he should free Arthas since the justice path is not to take people's life but understanding the importance of the life, that we suffer together instead of doing it again, applying it again to some people. seems that angel-like being (she) and Uther are flawed angel-like beings, those two must not be chosen - - > > no one is chosen. so to think about the true alternative way of the story timeline since the story the video tells is just about a game, that something might be shown as flawed or just for the character plot ongoing ways or the storytelling of the plot to make it spicy although I don't prefer that 'she' at all, the course must be abandoned, Arthas will understand and know the true purpose of the paladin, or rather the justice soul together instead of just individually. (but it will never happen) when Arthas said "I see.. only darkness.. before me" meant he never saw the light, then show him the light instead of throwing him to Maw, (but still it will never happen) guess Maw will raise Arthas, Arthas arrised from Maw, or in the other way, as the next or the upcoming expansion, but soon. but since Arthas did a lot of the wrongness, he is not forgiven-able, and that only he knows himself by his saying, (by saying this it is contradict, I know) that's why, just like the normal life people. But, the people (like Arthas) will never understand, hence the throwing to Maw. (Arthas finally see the light, but the light catches him. yep it is like the police arresting the terrorists)

Edit: Still, the justice is served.

Edit 2: I was editing the post while after the writing, so you might see some weird statements which contradict the other, lol.
It's like when one (me) tries to edit but there are lots needed to claim instead, that's why

Edit 3: it is messy omegalul, will think again before the entering of the texts. (yeah plus with my replies)

 

[deepstrasz]

the path should be broadening the heart instead of the vengeance, guess this angel-like being asking for Uther to revenge after is not even an angel-like being herself.

The point was that Devos realized their organization wasn't without flaw and thus wanted to rebel against it exploiting Uther's rage.

when Uther said "for justice" instead of for the vengeance he should free Arthas since the justice path is not to take people's life but understanding the importance of the life, that we suffer together instead of doing it again, applying it again to some people.

So, you're saying criminals shouldn't do time in jail?

Angels in Warcraft are not the Biblical angels (well, pretty much inspired, especially if you know things from the Torah; yeah God and the angels are not saints, so to speak, they have their interests and that includes cruelty if the purpose is justified).

Arthas will understand and know the true purpose of the paladin, or rather the justice soul together instead of just individually. when Arthas said "I see.. only darkness.. before me" meant he never saw the light,

Arthas was a baddie from birth. He couldn't get over the importance of himself, thing seen in RoC where he sacrificed his men to get vengeance that after he was all talk about saving his people.
Arthas even saw darkness when the angel and Uther approached him. Sure his mind was clouded by Frostmourne and Ner'zhul but that wasn't so before he took the sword. If anything his own narcissistic mind clouded him.

 

[Winimasker]

@deepstrasz yeah I was editing the post, perhaps reading it again, but just from my perspective, maybe I'm too optimistic, or rather you do, I don't know. Yeah WoW storytelling, as always (not with reversed meaning) and as usual.

Edit: was thinking about broadening the heart, but perhaps that is what the angel-like beings always do, (just from my guessing) and that 'she' became the one encouraging such attempt, that's why my words say all of these.
probably asking Uther to forget it, (but yeah that 'she' already does before the weird encouraging) but yeah Arthas did too much, that's why
I mean, always try to forget and ignore them instead of getting stick to the hatred and vengeance, I meanwhen one already broadens their heart, what the hell will they do? like this?
btw I watch the video without the sound enabled xd
maybe her words sound being justiceful? and that maybe I forget that part since I watched it without the sound being on xd
okay lesson learnt, perhaps let's turn on the sound before the watching xd

 

[deepstrasz]

Edit: was thinking about broadening the heart, but perhaps that is what the angel-like beings always do, (just from my guessing) and that 'she' became the one encouraging such attempt, that's why my words say all of these.

I don't know. It's not explained. To me it's all just there for a new expansion to work.
Arthas would not be taken to Bastion because he'd pose a serious risk to the beneficial(?) energies there since Frostmourne has Maw energies? But then, putting Arthas in the Maw could ensure him becoming stronger? Uther will realize that but there could have been no other way to jail Arthas? It's all fuzzy...

 

[Winimasker]

@deepstraz edited the second post, again, yeah I watched the video without the sound being turned on xd maybe that's why, watching the video with the sound turned on and without the sound turned on feel different tho

Edit: yeah the psychology, okay imma stop editing, no more words to talk about. (not with reversed meaning)

 

[deepstrasz]

@deepstraz edited the second post, again, yeah I watched the video without the sound being turned on xd maybe that's why, watching the video with the sound turned on and without the sound turned on feel different tho

Did you think it was a silent movie comic book xD?

Since when are YouTube videos generally soundless, especially from Blizzard?

I mean, always try to forget and ignore them instead of getting stick to the hatred and vengeance, I meanwhen one already broadens their heart, what the hell will they do? like this?

Well, I guess Blizzard doesn't like the turn the other cheek policy and they turn the other fist instead.

 

[Winimasker]

maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are right, I don't know, just posting it because I'm hyped about Uther video.

Edit: atm still I will not turn on the sound due to the personal reason, I will watch it with the sound turned on then next time, for the other video too ofc.

Edit 2: "Edit 2: I was editing the post while after the writing, so you might see some weird statements which contradict the other, lol.
It's like when one (me) tries to edit but there are lots needed to claim instead, that's why" just saying it again for reminding the disclaimer xd k imma stop for real, eh I said it again omegalul, and lol again

 

[deepstrasz]

maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are right, I don't know, just posting it because I'm hyped about Uther video.

Only Blizzard is right.

 

[MasterBlaster]

the path should be broadening the heart instead of the vengeance, guess this angel-like being asking for Uther to revenge after is not even an angel-like being herself

The Kyrian aren't "angels", at least not in the classic meaning of the word - they aren't these good, kind beings that are supposed to help people. Quite the opposite, their role is to serve the Shadowlands by doing their part in how that realm is structured. In that sense, their path is one of unquestioning service of the system, which is why the other Kyrian and the Archon dismiss Devos' concerns about Frostmourne.

It's also why the Kyrian require their members to forget their mortal lives before they ascend - after all, remembering who you were could potentially get in the way of your loyal service to the Shadowlands. Uther is a great example of that. If he ascended properly, he wouldn't remember Arthas and thus wouldn't be tempted to throw him into the Maw. Instead he'd do what he is supposed to do, i.e. served the system by delivering Arthas to the Arbiter to be judged.

As for Devos, her motivation is fairly simple - Uther showed her that the path of the Kyrian is flawed, because it makes them oblivious to potential threats and thus unable to act. And this is really dangerous. Moreover, having a damaged soul end up in Bastion made her believe that the Arbiter's judgement is not infallible and thus cannot be fully trusted. With that in mind, from Devos' point of view, the Kyrian shouldn't just play their part and hope that the system handles the rest, but be more proactive and leave no room for mistakes, for instance by making sure that mortals who could be a threat to the Shadowlands are going to end up in the Maw, no matter what.

This is also why she wants Arthas tossed into the Maw - she just believes that this is the right thing to do and that by doing it, she's making a service to the Shadowlands by removing a potential threat. Moreover, after her confontation with the Archon, she realizes that the other Kyrian won't listen to what she sees as "reason" and thus won't help her do what she believes needs to be done. She needs allies and Uther is a rather easy option, considering that his hunger for justice and lack of ascension. Simply put, she knows that Uther will join her, especially if that means being able to get vengeance on Arthas.

As to why she actually has Uther throw Arthas into the Maw? That's not explained, but to me it looked like "sealing the deal" between her and Uther - with Uther tossing Arthas into the Maw, he not only proves his loyalty, but also in a way fully embraces the new path.

Uther said "for justice" instead of for the vengeance he should free Arthas since the justice path is not to take people's life

First of all, they didn't take Arthas' life - he was already dead when Devos and Uther took him. What they did was toss him to pretty much hell without proper judgement. That said, if you look at it from the outside perspective, you are most likely right. It's not justice to have someone who wasn't meant to be the judge decide that you skip your trial and end up in hell. From that point of view, Arthas should obviously go to the Arbiter, a.k.a. the being that exists to judge souls and then be sent to whatever afterlife was considered appropriate for him, even if it still was the Maw.

But... that's the whole point - that's what the whole Shadowlands system is, that's what Uther and Devos rebelled against. And as for Uther, in his eyes Arthas is so horrible that he doesn't deserve a trial, because the only fair outcome would be going to the Maw. In other words, from Uther's perspective, dropping Arthas to hell is justice.

Arthas did a lot of the wrongness, he is not forgiven-able

I think you meant irredeemable.

Anyway, I admire your desire to forgive and look for good in people, but the whole concept of this story is that in the Warcraft universe there are souls that simply cannot be redemeed, no matter how hard you try to show them the light. That's why the Maw exists. It's a place to punish and isolate these souls from everyone else, while other souls - which might be considered evil, but still have some hope of being redeemed, go to other afterlives, such as Revendreth.

 

[Ardenaso]

I wish before Uther yeeted him into the Maw there is an echo like a callback from WC3:

"I dearly hope there is a special place in Hell waiting for you, Arthas"

also, copy-pasted from my post in mmo-champion:

from my understanding:

>Devos saw the Maw's interception in the mortal world due to Frostmourne
>Devos tries to appeal to the Archon for it but was brushed off
>Devos took matters in her own hands and ascends Uther without purging his memories
>Arthas later dies and Uther's emotional and rational soul (blue) rejoins the vengeful and remorseful soul (gold and they reunite)
>Uther was gonna yeet Arthas into the Maw but since the souls merged he had doubts and hesitations but Devos asserted that the Maw agent must be yeeted anyway
>Arthas lands in the Maw without getting judged by the Arbiter

basically the wrong thing here is that Uther had biased thoughts as a ferryman as opposed to that a Kyrian's memories must be purged to have impartial duties and unbiased decisions, and the wrong thing Devos did is that she manipulated Uther for vengeance against the Maw agent without a proper investigation; she is right however that memories memories should be investigated instead of outright flushed off

also

>Sylvanas went straight into the Maw without being judged
>The Val'kyr yeets her out

probably because the Val'kyr brought her there or did the Jailer put her there to scare her and manipulate her into serving him?

I've also seen that being Forsaken somehow gets you insta-Maw'ed on death? Is it due to the Maw's influence via Frostmourne and then the Val'kyr?

and

but then again, if Uther's blue half reemerged with gold soul then what about the Uther in the tomb in Legion?

 

[deepstrasz]

The Kyrian aren't "angels"

They're Valkyries No? Amazons? But they got males you say?

Quite the opposite, their role is to serve the Shadowlands by doing their part in how that realm is structured. In that sense, their path is one of unquestioning service of the system, which is why the other Kyrian and the Archon dismiss Devos' concerns about Frostmourne.

The "good" old blind faith plot.

It's also why the Kyrian require their members to forget their mortal lives before they ascend - after all, remembering who you were could potentially get in the way of your loyal service to the Shadowlands. Uther is a great example of that. If he ascended properly, he wouldn't remember Arthas and thus wouldn't be tempted to throw him into the Maw. Instead he'd do what he is supposed to do, i.e. served the system by delivering Arthas to the Arbiter to be judged.

What arbiter? I didn't remember that in the video.
But it sounds like a conspiracy... I mean, Ma'at is supposed to be the perfect justice organism, having no feelings, no involvement in the events that transpired with the judged.
Funny, you say, that they are supposed to brainwash themselves but I think it's more of the Buddhist and Jainist way of ahimsa and detachment. You don't forget, you just don't care anymore, you don't resist, but accept.
Devos probably has some past issues since she's too fast to get over the blind faith. Was she afraid the arbiter would keep Arthas in Bastion and thus corrupt it? That's kind of silly really. Arthas would not stand a chance in the weak state he was in and step by step converting the angels would not have gone unnoticed especially with these fanatics. Arthas would have just become a fallen angel and end up in the Maw anyway.
What's done is done and now both Uther and Devos will probably become renegades or outcasts unless the angels don't have a radar to spot where souls go after they die?

As for Devos, her motivation is fairly simple - Uther showed her that the path of the Kyrian is flawed, because it makes them oblivious to potential threats and thus unable to act. And this is really dangerous. Moreover, having a damaged soul end up in Bastion made her believe that the Arbiter's judgement is not infallible and thus cannot be fully trusted

It's one of those stories where some rebellious kids knows best than even the wisest of them all.
There is no perfect path. Devos didn't know what would happen. She just assumed and took rash action by manipulating Uther for her own interests. She acted more as a rebel than actually trying to prove something or do proper justice.
OK, maybe not a capricious teenager but a reformer.

This is also why she wants Arthas tossed into the Maw - she just believes that this is the right thing to do and that by doing it, she's making a service to the Shadowlands by removing a potential threat.

But did they even say they'll keep Arthas in the Shadowlands or ascend him? The idea of angelification is to do it with those who "deserve" it, who would be proper candidates. I think it's pretty chicken minded that Arthas would have no place among them.

She needs allies and Uther is a rather easy option, considering that his hunger for justice and lack of ascension. Simply put, she knows that Uther will join her, especially if that means being able to get vengeance on Arthas.

Uther is a rookie and now they're two in this guerrilla team. The others are, what, maybe thousands? What are they gonna do, preach their new reformation philosophy?

But... that's the whole point - that's what the whole Shadowlands system is, that's what Uther and Devos rebelled against. And as for Uther, in his eyes Arthas is so horrible that he doesn't deserve a trial, because the only fair outcome would be going to the Maw. In other words, from Uther's perspective, dropping Arthas to hell is justice.

I don't think Uther was ever the type of unfairness. Besides, it's him that threw Arthas in hell. Remember the line: "I dearly hope there's a special place in Hell waiting for you Arthas." Irony?

Anyway, I admire your desire to forgive and look for good in people, but the whole concept of this story is that in the Warcraft universe there are souls that simply cannot be redemeed,

I think this shows how abusive a system can be if some get trial and others don't.
Regardless, I think Devos was just too quick not thinking it through. This action should have been taken if Arthas would not have been fairly trialed, i.e. let to stay in Bastion or anyway, outside the Maw
I don't see her as a fair or strong entity. She let her feelings take over her. The others just respected the system. The system being flawed is a theory that needed evidence which now can't be put to light anymore.

---

>Devos took matters in her own hands and ascends Uther without purging his memories

This before Arthas actually being a so called threat.

 

[Winimasker]

First of all, they didn't take Arthas' life - he was already dead when Devos and Uther took him. What they did was toss him to pretty much hell without proper judgement. That said, if you look at it from the outside perspective, you are most likely right. It's not justice to have someone who wasn't meant to be the judge decide that you skip your trial and end up in hell. From that point of view, Arthas should obviously go to the Arbiter, a.k.a. the being that exists to judge souls and then be sent to whatever afterlife was considered appropriate for him, even if it still was the Maw.

But... that's the whole point - that's what the whole Shadowlands system is, that's what Uther and Devos rebelled against. And as for Uther, in his eyes Arthas is so horrible that he doesn't deserve a trial, because the only fair outcome would be going to the Maw. In other words, from Uther's perspective, dropping Arthas to hell is justice.

would just release him and jail him instead, much like Illidan jailing Sargeras? (I don't know about exact WoW lores btw) but I guess a death sentence will be on him. Throwing him to Maw is not a death sentence, although I don't really mean the death sentence but the judge on him, much like the normal life people. Death sentence is inevitable but at the same time it is a justice judgement.

Edit: I mean by broadening the heart, and by the drama of the video the alternative true way would be releasing him instead, but according to normal life, and being a normie, still, yeah, the death sentence on him.

Edit 2: but since you said he is dead since I guess the time in The Frozen Throne, so yeah.

 

[deepstrasz]

would just release him and jail him instead, much like Illidan jailing Sargeras? (I don't know about exact WoW lores btw) but I guess a death sentence will be on him. Throwing him to Maw is not a death sentence, although I don't really mean the death sentence but the judge on him, much like the normal life people. Death sentence is inevitable but at the same time it is a justice judgement.

Not sure if there's any real death with this Shadowlands thing. Before it was only demons who were invincible in that they always came back.
Maybe the idea is that Devos' actions are what actually caused more strife in the Shadowlands, Arthas gaining power in the Maw and actually becoming a threat.

 

[MasterBlaster]

They're Valkyries No? Amazons? But they got males you say?

You know what I mean

What arbiter? I didn't remember that in the video.

It wasn't. The idea is that there is this being called the Arbiter that's meant to judge souls and assign them to an appropriate afterlife, so when you die, the Kyrian come pick you up, take you to the Arbiter, it does its thing and then you get taken to your actual afterlife area.

But it sounds like a conspiracy... I mean, Ma'at is supposed to be the perfect justice organism, having no feelings, no involvement in the events that transpired with the judged.

Exactly. That's what you are supposed to be as a Kyrian - just a ferryman, not someone who judges the carried soul.

Funny, you say, that they are supposed to brainwash themselves but I think it's more of the Buddhist and Jainist way of ahimsa and detachment. You don't forget, you just don't care anymore, you don't resist, but accept.

No, they literally brainwash themselves and have no recollection of their mortal lives.

Devos probably has some past issues since she's too fast to get over the blind faith.

If by past issues, you mean ones related to her time as a Kyrian - perhaps.

Was she afraid the arbiter would keep Arthas in Bastion and thus corrupt it? That's kind of silly really. Arthas would not stand a chance in the weak state he was in and step by step converting the angels would not have gone unnoticed especially with these fanatics.

Arthas himself wasn't really a problem. The issue is that the Maw (a.k.a. Warcraft hell) has this evil being called the Jailer, who is considered to be a huge threat to the Shadowlands. Luckily, he (a.k.a. "the evil") was locked in the Maw long ago and since nothing can escape it (not true, btw), he's not really a threat in his current state.

Buuuuut... The way Devos looked at it was that if Arthas was using the power of the Maw/Jailer, then he probably was in league with him, so if he ended up anywhere else other than the Maw, especially in an afterlife whose denizens were completely oblivious to Arthas' allegiance (which they most likely would be, because as the short has shown, most if not all creatures that live in the Shadowlands believe that nothing can escape the Maw, so it's impossible that the Jailer can have allies outside of the Maw), then he could have secretly worked towards freeing the Jailer from his prison and not really be noticed, because no one would consider that this could be what he is doing.

What's done is done and now both Uther and Devos will probably become renegades or outcasts unless the angels don't have a radar to spot where souls go after they die?

Spoiler

Based on the beta gameplay, they eventually form their own faction called the Forsworn that tries to take over Bastion. The weirdest part about it is that they ally themselves with the Jailer, because as it turns out the Jailer is a bit like a political prisoner that was put in jail for having a different view on how things should work, which means that he sort of wants the same thing as the Forsworn, i.e. to abolish the existing order of things.

There is no perfect path. Devos didn't know what would happen. She just assumed and took rash action by manipulating Uther for her own interests. She acted more as a rebel than actually trying to prove something or do proper justice.

Perhaps, but it doesn't change that she probably rationalized it to herself like I've described.

It's one of those stories where some rebellious kids knows best than even the wisest of them all.

No system is pefect and sometimes even the wisest make mistakes. I think that fundamentally Devos did had a point - the path of the Kyrian had flaws. It's not unreasonable to say that purging memories left the Kyrian blind to some potential threats and in that sense, perhaps some changes could or even should be made.

But did they even say they'll keep Arthas in the Shadowlands or ascend him? The idea of angelification is to do it with those who "deserve" it, who would be proper candidates. I think it's pretty chicken minded that Arthas would have no place among them.

There is a huge number of different afterlives available in the Shadowlands, so not everyone goes to Bastion and ascends to become a Kyrian. With that in mind, based on the fact that Kyrians get these noble, selfless souls that spend their lives sacrificing themselves for a greater cause... that's not really Arthas, is it?

I think Devos knew that he wouldn't go to Bastion and it only made things worse, not only because the members of Arthas' afterlife wouldn't know that he may be alligned with the Jailer. You see, purging memories is a Kyrian thing. Other Covenants (organizations that run afterlives, e.g. Kyrian is the Covenant of Bastion) don't really do it. That means that unlike ascending to a Kyrian, which required forgetting your past, Arthas could rise in the ranks and gain power within a different Covenant without forgetting his potential allegiance to the Jailer. Now, if nobody would know of his past, he could eventually gain enough strength and influence to be a threat.

Uther is a rookie and now they're two in this guerrilla team. The others are, what, maybe thousands? What are they gonna do, preach their new reformation philosophy?

Uther might be a rookie, but if Devos was going to basically start her own "cult" then it's better to have one rookie follower than none. Also, Uther still presumably has his damaged soul, which is a proof of Devos' claims that she could potentially use (along with her high position) to secrently (she's seen that trying to openly "reform" other Kyrian won't work) convert others.

Remember the line: "I dearly hope there's a special place in Hell waiting for you Arthas."

I do and to me it only made the fact that it was Uther who tossed Arthas into the Maw that much sweeter

I think this shows how abusive a system can be if some get trial and others don't.

One could say that's the reason why the Shadowlands were ordered the way they were.

Regardless, I think Devos was just too quick not thinking it through. This action should have been taken if Arthas would not have been fairly trialed, i.e. let to stay in Bastion or anyway, outside the Maw

The thing is, I don't think Shadowlands has some sort of a police force that goes around different afterlives looking for renegade or dangerous souls, so there's a risk that before someone found out that Arthas wasn't fairly trialed or was a threat, he'd already mess a lot of things up.

 

[Ardenaso]

Spoiler

of course Warcraft needs its own Lucifer

 

[deepstrasz]

Exactly. That's what you are supposed to be as a Kyrian - just a ferryman, not someone who judges the carried soul.

Well, I guess the archon has something to say eventually? So, you only need to become one ?

If by past issues, you mean ones related to her time as a Kyrian - perhaps.

That too but I was referring to past life.
So, how did this business start anyway, with the first dying creature? Is the arbiter or their leader the first cell that died xD?

Arthas himself wasn't really a problem. The issue is that the Maw (a.k.a. Warcraft hell) has this evil being called the Jailer, who is considered to be a huge threat to the Shadowlands. Luckily, he (a.k.a. "the evil") was locked in the Maw long ago and since nothing can escape it (not true, btw), he's not really a threat in his current state.

Well, the idea would be that Arthas or an agent outside the Maw would be able to free the Jailer.
Man, this is not at all Biblical inspired, no siree.
So, I fail to see how the Archon and co. would not realize something that rookie Devos realized in a blink of an eye (she doesn't blink does she ?).
So, then, if Arthas is able to break the Jailer free or at least get out of the Maw, then all the limits of the system will go to dust. I'm assuming he'd be able to get out because he had something to do with the Light or because wielding and being a part of Frostmourne made him bent time and space even more than the super being that is the Jailer could. Maybe, he releases the Jailer? But Arthas is not the type to be manipulated easily, even though, now in a weak state. Also, Sylvanas... imagine if they'd both be there... it'll be a fest that would ensure the Maw's demise or at least throw it into a long stupor.
Don't tell me, Sylvanas is gonna redeem herself by fighting against Arthas.

Buuuuut... The way Devos looked at it was that if Arthas was using the power of the Maw/Jailer, then he probably was in league with him, so if he ended up anywhere else other than the Maw, especially in an afterlife whose denizens were completely oblivious to Arthas' allegiance (which they most likely would be, because as the short has shown, most if not all creatures that live in the Shadowlands believe that nothing can escape the Maw, so it's impossible that the Jailer can have allies outside of the Maw), then he could have secretly worked towards freeing the Jailer from his prison and not really be noticed, because no one would consider that this could be what he is doing.

Uh-huh, they would not monitor him at all? Stupid angels society. Also, the mind twisting plot again with old gods aka Jailer corrupting the mind of Neltharion aka Arthas.

Based on the beta gameplay

Ofc., fight the power when you want things your way instead. Very educational.
Also, if the J-dude doesn't betray, then it's really lame. I mean twist of the twist of the twist.
Makes sense though for Uther to work with Arthas. Maybe we're gonna see a sort of redeemable story. I can't wait :|
I mean, I see where this is going as with Legion when the Light was forced upon creatures and not a blessing that Illidan, a freaking junkie, showed the world what's proper and that rebellion was good. The hypocrisy.

No system is pefect and sometimes even the wisest make mistakes. I think that fundamentally Devos did had a point - the path of the Kyrian had flaws. It's not unreasonable to say that purging memories left the Kyrian blind to some potential threats and in that sense, perhaps some changes could or even should be made.

But she was right because she wanted to be?

There is a huge number of different afterlives available in the Shadowlands, so not everyone goes to Bastion and ascends to become a Kyrian.

Oh, like the Buddhist heavens or maybe we should call them the Dante hells.

I think Devos knew that he wouldn't go to Bastion and it only made things worse,

That's really tragic when you think you know better than the most experienced without even considering you'd be wrong or waiting for the trial results first.

Arthas could rise in the ranks and gain power within a different Covenant without forgetting his potential allegiance to the Jailer. Now, if nobody would know of his past, he could eventually gain enough strength and influence to be a threat.

Arthas was never a band guy. He'd probably put a sword through the Jailer and seize control himself.

Uther might be a rookie, but if Devos was going to basically start her own "cult" then it's better to have one rookie follower than none. Also, Uther still presumably has his damaged soul, which is a proof of Devos' claims that she could potentially use (along with her high position) to secrently (she's seen that trying to openly "reform" other Kyrian won't work) convert others.

It's gonna take millions of years then.
Anyways, Uther wasn't the only one killed that way by Arthas. So, he's not special. The evidence is all over.

I do and to me it only made the fact that it was Uther who tossed Arthas into the Maw that much sweeter

Well, that doesn't really mean a special place. It's just any place in hell.

The thing is, I don't think Shadowlands has some sort of a police force that goes around different afterlives looking for renegade or dangerous souls, so there's a risk that before someone found out that Arthas wasn't fairly trialed or was a threat, he'd already mess a lot of things up.

Well, that's just silly. Imagine if judges in our world would give sentences but the police wouldn't take those people to jail or there would be none to monitor the jails...
It makes little sense, them barking about the Shadowlands system and whatnot but actually doing things with their backs at the issue.

We'll see how the series plays out. Right now, it's a mess.

 

[Venombite]

I see.. only darkness.. before me

This originally referred to Arthas being abandoned by the Light, and being irredeemable. Now it was retconed to Devos and Uther throwing him into the Maw(or Hell), the darkest place there is.

@MasterBlaster Kyrians are angels in all but name. In Christianity angels are beings who carry the souls of the deceased to the afterlife, don't know about other religions. Kyrians are also beings with white wings, they represent Purity, Courage, Wisdom, Humility and Loyalty, again 100% angel there. They live in Bastion (Heaven in all but name) the highest of all realms in the Shadowlands. And spoiler for Maldraxxus, they are the purest and most powerful beings in the Shadowlands, and despite Maldraxxus being the heart of military might and providing armies to protect the Shadowlands, it's actually the Kyrians who have the most powerful army of all the Covenants.

@deepstrasz Devos saw what Uther has been through and who is Arthas. She deemed it just for Uther to want his Vengeance, and she found it right for Arthas to end up in Hell. But she also saw that saying "Nothing can escape the Maw" is not true and that there already are powers of the Maw in a mortal realm, so she saw the path(meaning Kyrians are simple carriers of souls to the Arbiter) is not right and it needs to change. So she ascends Uther and helps him. Spoiler, now the Arbiter is broken so all the souls go to the Maw and give the Jailer more and more power. So the main plot of Kyrian Campaign is why are they still carrying the souls, when it only makes the Jailer stronger. Kleia, our bff in Bastion, thinks it's ridiculous, but all other Kyrians say it's their duty, and they're not concerned by the fact that the Arbiter is broken.

 

[Ardenaso]

Now it was retconed to Devos and Uther throwing him into the Maw(or Hell), the darkest place there is.

check his eyes, he still sees the Maw; the line is even said there

 

[deepstrasz]

the Maw(or Hell), the darkest place there is.

Are you sure?
It looked pretty fiery to me

In Christianity angels are beings who carry the souls of the deceased to the afterlife, don't know about other religions.

I think you might have your philosophies mixed, son Valkyries, of the Norse religion do that. Yes, they are inspired by the Middle Eastern angel figures.
In Abrahamic religions angels are messengers, soldiers/guardians.

Kyrians are also beings with white wings, they represent Purity, Courage, Wisdom, Humility and Loyalty, again 100% angel there.

I agree, although it's more Diabloesque than Biblical but yes, basically the angel hierarchies and roles are somewhat mirroring the polytheistic pantheons.

Devos saw what Uther has been through and who is Arthas. She deemed it just for Uther to want his Vengeance, and she found it right for Arthas to end up in Hell.

Where are you guys getting this from that Arthas would not have ended up in Hell? It's Devos' problem that she became paranoid that Ma'at would not judge Arthas fairly and send him to the Maw.

Spoiler, now the Arbiter is broken so all the souls go to the Maw and give the Jailer more and more power.

Really? Lol, that's lame. Also, it's not smart to huddle all the strong evil dudes in one place, even if it's the Maw. Only the Jailer is locked, no? The rest roam free.

So the main plot of Kyrian Campaign is why are they still carrying the souls, when it only makes the Jailer stronger.

Kyrian: "I don't know man, the pay is good, I mean, blissful".
If that's the plot, then all of this is sillier than I thought

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'll reply to the rest later as I'm not feeling too great at the moment (no, it's not Corona), but:

Where are you guys getting this from that Arthas would not have ended up in Hell?

Nowhere, he most likely would ended up in the Maw (though if you read WoW forums, some people are making a case for Revendreth), but from Devos' perspective the system and the Arbiter's judgement were flawed, so if there was even a tiny chance that somehow he wouldn't then why take the risk?

Also, it's not smart to huddle all the strong evil dudes in one place, even if it's the Maw. Only the Jailer is locked, no?

All souls that go into the Maw are meant to be imprisoned there for all eternity, not just the Jailer. So yes, technically they can roam free within the Maw, but can't leave.

If that's the plot, then all of this is sillier than I thought

Another thing proving that Devos was right and the system is not perfect.

 

[Ardenaso]

Another thing proving that Devos was right and the system is not perfect.

she's still wrong on the part where Arthas was directly sent to the Maw without a proper judgment from the Arbiter; were it not for them he might be in Revendreth

 

[MasterBlaster]

she's still wrong on the part where Arthas was directly sent to the Maw without a proper judgment from the Arbiter; were it not for them he might be in Revendreth

I don't understand your point. Care to elaborate?

 

[deepstrasz]

Nowhere, he most likely would ended up in the Maw (though if you read WoW forums, some people are making a case for Revendreth)

Well, let's not care about that. Let's work with the official material we have.

but from Devos' perspective the system and the Arbiter's judgement were flawed, so if there was even a tiny chance that somehow he wouldn't then why take the risk?

There wasn't any risk really, since Devos and Uther had their eyes on Arthas regardless. The problem is when you don't respect rules anymore because you create all these unproven theories.
Who knows, maybe Devos was the Jailer's waifu in natural life

All souls that go into the Maw are meant to be imprisoned there for all eternity, not just the Jailer. So yes, technically they can roam free within the Maw, but cannot leave it.

Which means they could potentially get out, somehow.
What are the chances of prisoners escaping a prison with their hands tied?

Another thing proving that Devos was right and the system is not perfect.

But doesn't help the story being less sillier though.

I'll reply to the rest later as I'm not feeling too great at the moment

Get well soon but not TM.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Okay, last thing.

There wasn't any risk really

That's only true if you believe the system works fine, in which case it's reasonable to believe that if a soul is a threat to the Shadowlands then it will go to the Maw. And Devos believed that the system was flawed, so from HER PERSPECTIVE the risk was there.

But doesn't help the story being less sillier though.

Which is exactly the whole point.

If the Arbiter went dormant, the Kyrian should stop ferrying souls, so that they wouldn't end up in the Maw, right? The fact that they don't is silly, but it doesn't come from the writer being stupid and not predicting that people might consider this turn of events to be silly. Quite the opposite. The reason it's written this way, because the whole situation is meant to look silly to add credence to Devos' claims that the system isn't perfect.

And if what you see in game makes you think that perhaps this Devos person wasn't completely wrong then suddenly you can understand why she did the things she did or how she ended up where she is when you meet her. You can empathise with her a little, even. You know, get this thought that perhaps she wasn't innately bad and perhaps the Archon is also to blame for this whole mess, because she didn't hear Devos out. And that's exactly what they want.

Get well soon but not TM

Thanks, I'm going to lay down for a bit now

 

[deepstrasz]

That's only true if you believe the system works fine, in which case it's reasonable to believe that if a soul is a threat to the Shadowlands then it will go to the Maw. And Devos believed that the system was flawed, so from HER PERSPECTIVE the risk was there.

Yeah. Hooray to messiah Uther. No one posed any risk until then.

If the Arbiter went dormant, the Kyrian should stop ferrying souls, so that they wouldn't end up in the Maw, right?

I mean sure but then it's not just blind faith anymore, it's Pavlov's dog->stupidity at the human level.

The fact that they don't is silly, but it doesn't come from the writer being stupid and not predicting that people might consider this turn of events to be silly.

I didn't say anything about the writer, especially what you wrote. I'm just saying, I expect more reason and I do because Devos suddenly had a revelation no one else had or even tried to ask about.

The reason it's written this way, because the whole situation is meant to look silly to add credence to Devos' claims that the system isn't perfect.

Yeah but then we don't want to step on cliches.

You can empathise with her a little, even. You know, get this thought that perhaps she wasn't innately bad and perhaps the Archon is also to blame for this whole mess, because she didn't hear Devos out. And that's exactly what they want.

That's my point, it's too one sided. Doesn't leave room for the others to be right in their own way.

 

[Ardenaso]

I don't understand your point. Care to elaborate?

Devos and Uther basically skipped the Arbiter and they themselves decided to Maw the Arthas

 

[Winimasker]

I watched the video with sound turned on just now, Uther sounds still with the retribution, while Devos sounds rude after but the order on the other hand, yeah sounds like nonsense instead of broadening the heart and just forget and ignore 'them', that is the other score.
Guess it is the WoW classic sound of woman at the end, but I thought it would not be that way since there are night elves, but I guess it is due to Devos being shocked of the fact about Arthas, or rather the power of Maw.
Now when we talked about Maw, it reminds me of the pronunciation of frost'mourne'.

In conclusion, after turning the sound on, still Uther sounds as never let go of Art has, (instead of let go of him, but action-wise he would still throw him to Maw, and that the further justice of Uther should be purely justice instead of justice with the retribution) okay second I think the word I was finding is "let go" instead of "forget and ignore", but I think both are true and serve the same meaning. That when Uther says "for justice". When I looked at Devos, she reminds me of Azshara.

 

[deepstrasz]

okay second I think the word I was finding is "let go"

 

[MasterBlaster]

Upon further reflection, I actually adressed most of what I wanted to adress before other than a couple of things listed below

I guess the archon has something to say eventually?

You can't become an Archon, she's like this ancient death being that was one of the founding creatures of the whole Shadowlands system.

So, how did this business start anyway, with the first dying creature?

That we do not know, yet (I presume).

Kyrians are angels in all but name. In Christianity angels are beings who carry the souls of the deceased to the afterlife, don't know about other religions. Kyrians are also beings with white wings, they represent Purity, Courage, Wisdom, Humility and Loyalty, again 100% angel there.

That's just not true. I'm not sure about carrying the souls of the dead thing, though I don't think angels are doing that, but I do know that they have a lot of other jobs like serving God, being a messenger, helping humans, etc. None of that is reflected in the Kyrian.

They live in Bastion (Heaven in all but name) the highest of all realms in the Shadowlands.

Bastion is not some "highest" realm in the Shadowlands, it's just one of the realms.

And spoiler for Maldraxxus, they are the purest and most powerful beings in the Shadowlands, and despite Maldraxxus being the heart of military might and providing armies to protect the Shadowlands, it's actually the Kyrians who have the most powerful army of all the Covenants.

That I don't know, perhaps you're right.

Well, let's not care about that. Let's work with the official material we have.

I've been reading some of that and it's actually a pretty interesting discussion. I mean, whether Arthas should go straight to the Maw or to Revendreth.

That's my point, it's too one sided. Doesn't leave room for the others to be right in their own way.

The video is one-sided, because it's meant to be from the perspective of Uther and Devos. Of course it's going to show/imply they had a point. But then you get to play the game where you mostly interact with the Archon and other loyal Kyrian, so you get their side too.

 

[deepstrasz]

You can't become an Archon, she's like this ancient death being that was one of the founding creatures of the whole Shadowlands system.

Well, at least Moses wasn't immortal so reform came easier without, ahem, violence.

The video is one-sided, because it's meant to be from the perspective of Uther and Devos. Of course it's going to show/imply they had a point. But then you get to play the game where you mostly interact with the Archon and other loyal Kyrian, so you get their side too.

But do you get to choose the side?

 

[MasterBlaster]

But do you get to choose the side?

Nope, you're siding with Kyrian and Devos is your enemy.

 

[deepstrasz]

Nope, you're siding with Kyrian and Devos is your enemy.

And then you get a Legion Illidan ending? Meh.

 

[MasterBlaster]

And then you get a Legion Illidan ending? Meh.

In what way? That Devos gets redeemed or something? I'm not all that knowledgeable about what happens, but I think she just dies as a boss somewhere.

 

[deepstrasz]

In what way? That Devos gets redeemed or something? I'm not all that knowledgeable about what happens, but I think she just dies as a boss somewhere.

What? Really? Lol, what a character arc. Grandiose.

I meant that the player realizing she was right and then turning on the Archon instead, like Illidan being good and the Naaru bad.

 

[MasterBlaster]

What? Really? Lol, what a character arc. Grandiose.

Eh, still better than having a dungeon boss (or whatever) that's "I'm evil, because it's cool, bruv".

 

[Venombite]

Off topic, but man, is Maldraxxus one lame compared to this one!

 

[Ardenaso]

Yup! Should've been Doomhammer, Broxigar or even Mogrin on this one

or for women Zaela

 

[deepstrasz]

Watch Afterlives: Maldraxxus - Featuring Draka and the Necrolords

Drakka the necromantic Garona?
So she can teleport but she first blocked ?
The necropolis got terrorists, man.

This video was way more sillier than the last.

 

[stein123]

Watch Afterlives: Maldraxxus - Featuring Draka and the Necrolords

Drakka the necromantic Garona?
So she can teleport but she first blocked ?
The necropolis got terrorists, man.

This video was way more sillier than the last.

Writer 1: "Garona in the shadowlands..."

Writer 2: "She isn't dead..."

Writer 1: "Fuck it just make Draka Garona-lite."

 

[MasterBlaster]

Some more lore revelations from Shadowlands:
Enemy Infiltration - Preface: Shadowlands Book on Cosmos-Wide Deception Written by a Dreadlord

So apparently Dreadlords were sired by Denathrius, leader of the Venthyr Convenant, and they were sent to sabotage all cosmic powers.

 

[deepstrasz]

"There are hints this may even be a dreadlord, which would have huge lore implications if they've been serving Death, not the Burning Legion, all along." - laughable. We can create such pulled out of what dark place you want intrigues every expansion.

"In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see." - dreadlords smarter than godlike titans. Moreover, orchestrating from the dark as if they'd be some Void Gods or something.

"The void lords all but welcome us with open arms. They are so preoccupied with their thousand truths that they ignore the lies we sow in their very midst." - so they made the dreadlords even more ancient than the others or so advanced that they learned about higher forces in the universe.

"Similar to the titans, the naaru and their keepers are singular in purpose. Their adherence to a linear path is an obvious shortcoming." - and the dreadlords are not linear minded? Well, there were some that converted to the Light but that means Naaru are not without wider horizons since there are dark naaru too.

"They savor nothing more than being proved right, so if they believe they have converted one of us to their precious Light, they will trust that agent implicitly." - another pulled out intrigue

"The adherents to Life are the most insidious of opponents, perhaps because their nature is so antithetical to our own." - dude, dreadlords are literally vampires. They feed on souls too, it's true or at least need them for something. They're more like demon vampires, not dead or undead but unholy.

"And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one." - right, master plan with no side effects.

"As ever, we shall serve as your unseen hand. We will poison every host foolish enough to invite us into their midst.
I remain, as always, your faithful servant." - Mhm...

"If the Nathrezim have been working for the Jailer all along' - which is Shadowlands invention. Literally, they could have done this with any Burning Legion without a clear backstory. I wonder what WoW lore says about dreadlords. We know they made the draenei into eredar.

"Sargeras expressed his growing fear that existence itself was already flawed--an idea that he had come to terms with following his encounter with the Old Gods. Only by burning away all of creation could the titans stand a chance of thwarting the void lord's ultimate goal." - well helping the Void Lords gain ground isn't smart. They are not dead.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Moreover, orchestrating from the dark as if they'd be some Void Gods or something.

But wasn't that sort of their thing? I mean, look at W3 - Mal'ganis and Tichondrius were manipulating Arthas for instance.

they made the dreadlords even more ancient than the others or so advanced that they learned about higher forces in the universe

The idea is that the Dreadlords were created by Sire Denathrius, leader of the Venthyr Covenant and supposedly one of the most ancient beings in the universe. It makes sense that he would know or learn about other powers over time. And if he wanted the Dreadlords to infiltrate other cosmic forces, he could have simply filled them in.

dude, dreadlords are literally vampires. They feed on souls too, it's true or at least need them for something. They're more like demon vampires, not dead or undead but unholy

I'll admit - this made me chuckle Good point, though.

master plan with no side effects

To be fair, it doesn't say that it doesn't have any side effects.

helping the Void Lords gain ground isn't smart

Uhm... what? Who's helping the Void Lords gain ground?

 

[deepstrasz]

But wasn't that sort of their thing? I mean, look at W3 - Mal'ganis and Tichondrius were manipulating Arthas for instance.

That's different. They were under submission to the Burning Legion. It was obvious. They didn't plan against. None of them spoke anything about this higher occult movement or even of overthrowing any demonlord. Even after they corrupted Sargeras, they still bent the knee.

Uhm... what? Who's helping the Void Lords gain ground?

By eliminating the balancing force, the titans through corrupting Sargeras.

As I mentioned, all this is Shadowlands invention a retcon ultimately but not a mind jabbing one.

 

[Ardenaso]

"the Legion may be defeated, but we are the Nathrezim!" - Detheroc

 

[Venombite]

Some more lore revelations from Shadowlands:
Enemy Infiltration - Preface: Shadowlands Book on Cosmos-Wide Deception Written by a Dreadlord

So apparently Dreadlords were sired by Denathrius, leader of the Venthyr Convenant, and they were sent to sabotage all cosmic powers.

Yeah, while it's lame it's not really surprising. We basically go(lorewise we're just footman, priests and etc....) and kill a god.

I'd like to point out an interesting conversation I've seen on StarCraft forums, why there shouldn't be a StarCraft 3. We've killed the bad guy, saved the galaxy, every character got their happy ending, so what to do after: Go around and kill random gods, like WoW does. And sadly, that's what WoW story was all about pretty much since Cataclysm, going around fighting and killing random gods.

 

[Ardenaso]

Yeah, while it's lame it's not really surprising. We basically go(lorewise we're just footman, priests and etc....) and kill a god.

I'd like to point out an interesting conversation I've seen on StarCraft forums, why there shouldn't be a StarCraft 3. We've killed the bad guy, saved the galaxy, every character got their happy ending, so what to do after: Go around and kill random gods, like WoW does. And sadly, that's what WoW story was all about pretty much since Cataclysm, going around fighting and killing random gods.

StarCraft 3: Battle for Korprulu - the Third Rebellion

or something idk I only played WoL

 

[deepstrasz]

"the Legion may be defeated, but we are the Nathrezim!" - Detheroc

So? They just saw that they could rule instead. Also, raising morale.

I'd like to point out an interesting conversation I've seen on StarCraft forums, why there shouldn't be a StarCraft 3. We've killed the bad guy, saved the galaxy, every character got their happy ending, so what to do after: Go around and kill random gods, like WoW does. And sadly, that's what WoW story was all about pretty much since Cataclysm, going around fighting and killing random gods.

Yeah, it's basically what we've been doing after Diablo II: LoD.

 

[Fortlorenzdeguzman]

the path should be broadening the heart instead of the vengeance, guess this angel-like being asking for Uther to revenge after is not even an angel-like being herself. when Uther said "for justice" instead of for the vengeance he should free Arthas since the justice path is not to take people's life but understanding the importance of the life, that we suffer together instead of doing it again, applying it again to some people. seems that angel-like being (she) and Uther are flawed angel-like beings, those two must not be chosen - - > > no one is chosen. so to think about the true alternative way of the story timeline since the story the video tells is just about a game, that something might be shown as flawed or just for the character plot ongoing ways or the storytelling of the plot to make it spicy although I don't prefer that 'she' at all, the course must be abandoned, Arthas will understand and know the true purpose of the paladin, or rather the justice soul together instead of just individually. (but it will never happen) when Arthas said "I see.. only darkness.. before me" meant he never saw the light, then show him the light instead of throwing him to Maw, (but still it will never happen) guess Maw will raise Arthas, Arthas arrised from Maw, or in the other way, as the next or the upcoming expansion, but soon. but since Arthas did a lot of the wrongness, he is not forgiven-able, and that only he knows himself by his saying, (by saying this it is contradict, I know) that's why, just like the normal life people. But, the people (like Arthas) will never understand, hence the throwing to Maw. (Arthas finally see the light, but the light catches him. yep it is like the police arresting the terrorists)

Edit: Still, the justice is served.

Edit 2: I was editing the post while after the writing, so you might see some weird statements which contradict the other, lol.
It's like when one (me) tries to edit but there are lots needed to claim instead, that's why

Edit 3: it is messy omegalul, will think again before the entering of the texts. (yeah plus with my replies)

I cant describe my deepest sympathy for the bad guy without throwing a storm bolt at uthers face, people use to die, now they just need to answer to a god form who will just tolerate mortal men.

 

[Venombite]

Again, man is Ardeweald one lame compared to Bastion.

 

[Ardenaso]

Again, man is Ardeweald one lame compared to Bastion.

but hey it's better than Maldraxxus, also we were all expecting either Cenarius, Vol'jin, or the Night Elves; but nah it's that bear in WotLK