New platform for modding?

[hexhound]

Like many modders I am displeased with the new EULA stating that Activision owns anything you put in the map editor, forever without limitation.

There are discussions in other threads about the legality of this, but for the purposes of this thread let's assume it will hold up in court and/or their finances will allow them to legally bully you out of business if they want to.

What are the chances we can put together (or find) a platform that does for us what War3 did before the patch, and cruicially, before they removed host bots?

The current uproar about Reforged offers a good opportunity to get publicity for it. I believe if enough semi-popular mods moved over to such a platform at around the same time, the aggregate player base would reach critical mass and it could be like glory days of Wc3 custom games again. Ideally they could all congregate on one and the same website and forum as well, with separate ladders pusblished for each gametype.

I don't know enough about programming to guess at the difficulty of this, but i know there are many competent programmers here on the Hive. I would bet the talent needed is already present here, given organization.

Can anyone help to make an educated guess at what it would require?

Are there any existing spin-offs that have already "re-invented the wheel" so to speak, and could expand their platform to include other mods?

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

You have many options. Gameranger and an earlier Warcraft version is one.

 

[hexhound]

You have many options. Gameranger and an earlier Warcraft version is one.

I will look into gameranger now, but saying earlier version of warcraft makes me think you misunderstood my question. I'm talking about a platform similar to what Wc3 BattleNet was at the time just before they removed hosting bots.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

I will look into gameranger now, but saying earlier version of warcraft makes me think you misunderstood my question.

Probably, I didn't read it thoroughly

Here's a list over gameranger games:

Spoiler

As you can see there's quite a few TFT games open.

 

[hexhound]

Probably, I didn't read it thoroughly

Here's a list over gameranger games:

As you can see there's quite a few TFT games open.

That's very cool, but i'm not talking about playing the game. I'm talking about moving mine and hopefully many other WC3 Editor created (old version of course, before the EULA) mods over to a separate platform, to get rid of the new EULA restrictions. To do that for GameRanger it looks like i would have to have my own gaming company already up and running, and all the background programming to simulate the parts that WC3 did for me already finished.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

to get rid of the new EULA restrictions

You won't get rid of that as long as you're using a custom Warcraft 3 map.

If you want a development platform where you own your stuff the Unity is your friend.

May I ask, what exactly are your concerns about the EULA? I can acknowledge that model creators has some copyright issues seeing as they probably don't want to give Blizzard exclusive rights to their models, but for map makers this is pretty much a non-issue.

 

[hexhound]

You won't get rid of that as long as you're using a custom Warcraft 3 map.

If you want a development platform where you own your stuff the Unity is your friend.

May I ask, what exactly are your concerns about the EULA? I can acknowledge that model creators has some copyright issues seeing as they probably don't want to give Blizzard exclusive rights to their models, but for map makers this is pretty much a non-issue.

Of course I wouldn't be able to use a war3 format map, I mean porting over the triggers, scripts, characters and stats that i added myself into the editor, and just putting them in a new platform where I retain ownership of my IP.

As for the legal question, I linked two threads in the OP that already detail it, if you read either of those you'll see what it's about. Let's not spread out the discussion unnecessarily across multiple threads.

 

[FeelsGoodMan]

Of course I wouldn't be able to use a war3 format map, I mean porting over the triggers, scripts, characters and stats that i added myself into the editor, and just putting them in a new platform where I retain ownership of my IP.

You would have to recreate it of course. If you're worried about someone "stealing" your IP then it should be no problem for you to re-create your stuff in Unity.

As for the legal question, I linked two threads in the OP that already detail it, if you read either of those you'll see what it's about. Let's not spread out the discussion unnecessarily across multiple threads.

I have read that, but your concept cannot be "stolen". The name, models used, and pretty much all physical things in the map is Blizzard's property, but there is nothing stopping you from taking your concept and creating it in Unity. Nothing is stopping you, anyone else, or Blizzard from doing exactly that. Even if Blizzard says they have rights to your ideas that is simply not true in an actual enforceable way. If that was true, then PUBG (or whoever else made the original) would be able to sue literally any other battleground game, and all game creators that created an idea based off something else could get sued.

Regardless of that though, do you have the required skills to make your custom map into a proper Unity game? If yes, why don't you just do that right away? Most people are making Warcraft maps as a hobby and to have fun, while really serious people don't play around in other companies platforms, because that is simply unprofessional.

 

[hexhound]

You would have to recreate it of course. If you're worried about someone "stealing" your IP then it should be no problem for you to re-create your stuff in Unity.

I have read that, but your concept cannot be "stolen". The name, models used, and pretty much all physical things in the map is Blizzard's property, but there is nothing stopping you from taking your concept and creating it in Unity. Nothing is stopping you, anyone else, or Blizzard from doing exactly that. Even if Blizzard says they have rights to your ideas that is simply not true in an actual enforceable way. If that was true, then PUBG (or whoever else made the original) would be able to sue literally any other battleground game, and all game creators that created an idea based off something else could get sued.

Regardless of that though, do you have the required skills to make your custom map into a proper Unity game? If yes, why don't you just do that right away? Most people are making Warcraft maps as a hobby and to have fun, while really serious people don't play around in other companies platforms, because that is simply unprofessional.

Let me attempt at starting over, because i still don't think you understood what i was getting at in the op.

Rewind the time in your imagination to War3 BNet of 2016-2017 before host bots got taken down. You had a single platform where map makers of all skill levels could participate, and draw from the same player pool. Some were serious and successful. You had thriving communities like BK, ENT and wTc hosting games and maintaining forums and ladders for several competitive maps like Legion TD, Hero Push, and various others.
It was a situation from which things could grow, be tested, and slowly develop into more serious projects whilst at the same time having a low barrier to entry and constant access to a large player pool. See DOTA as an example.

This is the situation i would like to see re-created.

After bots got removed, the Legion TD team attempted to make a stand-alone, but it's struggling for players because they have to create their own player pool now out of people exclusively interested in their map. Back when it was a custom map, they surely had many more casual joiners, and if bots had been allowed longer, it's very likely they would have been able to grow the popularity enough to make the jump into a stand-alone more successfully at a later date.

It was something completely else than launching from zero and attempting to make a game and market it and build a community from the ground up.

 

[Retera]

If it is relevant to you, to make a point to some people I know I went and wrote something that looks like the Warcraft 3 engine and opens w3x maps by translating some code from other open source Hive projects into one single language.

I was working on this for the better part of a year on the weekends, but I also have a day job and I keep my actual job as my priority.

Since this project could never be even monetized, even a little bit, my real main goal is to make a modding platform superior to Blizzard's in small, tiny, parody ways. For example, all abilities will probably offer a gold cost customizable from the ability editor, and I will probably have a 3x5 command card.
This project can't actually succeed, since at some point I know Blizzard would interfere. But if I can make a point of how easy it would be -- given the source of the game -- to add certain things, maybe then they will add those things for us to the actual game.

But even this won't solve your IP problem. In fact, it is more like brashly ignoring the problem and charging head first into coding something that will eventually be entirely deleted.

 

[hexhound]

If it is relevant to you, to make a point to some people I know I went and wrote something that looks like the Warcraft 3 engine and opens w3x maps by translating some code from other open source Hive projects into one single language.

I was working on this for the better part of a year on the weekends, but I also have a day job and I keep my actual job as my priority.

Since this project could never be even monetized, even a little bit, my real main goal is to make a modding platform superior to Blizzard's in small, tiny, parody ways. For example, all abilities will probably offer a gold cost customizable from the ability editor, and I will probably have a 3x5 command card.
This project can't actually succeed, since at some point I know Blizzard would interfere. But if I can make a point of how easy it would be -- given the source of the game -- to add certain things, maybe then they will add those things for us to the actual game.

But even this won't solve your IP problem. In fact, it is more like brashly ignoring the problem and charging head first into coding something that will eventually be entirely deleted.

That's beautiful, and nice work.
I'm not savvy enough about copyright and code ownership to know all of what is needed, but the ideal solution in my mind would be something like this where you could copy/paste or easily replicate triggers you've written in Blizzard's editor, and with the same basic camera / terrain / UI functionality. And then get online and try it, along with other people's maps. I know this website is full of brilliant people, so i'm hoping someone will chime in with a possible solution.

 

[Amigoltu]

There is no "platform" like Warcraft 3, except Warcraft 3. The way I see it, we patch back to before Reforged and find an alternative online game host to bnet. Seemingly there already are some, like pointed out above. At that point, no EULAs will matter. Blizz won't have a way of enforcing anything anyways, if we no longer use bnet. Not like they would sue every single player.

And as for distribution... Since when are we creating these maps for money? If you want to sell your creation, World Editor ain't the tool. Unity or Unreal engine are. Or even better - your own custom built engine.

EDIT:
As
For those who want to play Classic Warcraft 3
Points out, even LAN can be used over internet. Who even needs bnet now?

 

[Cespie]

That's very cool, but i'm not talking about playing the game. I'm talking about moving mine and hopefully many other WC3 Editor created (old version of course, before the EULA) mods over to a separate platform, to get rid of the new EULA restrictions. To do that for GameRanger it looks like i would have to have my own gaming company already up and running, and all the background programming to simulate the parts that WC3 did for me already finished.

Unity.
Learn C# and work in Unity.
If there was ever a reason to go "real" with your game concepts, this would be it.

 

[hexhound]

Unity.
Learn C# and work in Unity.
If there was ever a reason to go "real" with your game concepts, this would be it.

True that. i downloaded it and went through the first tutorial yesterday. Still wish there'd be a platform full of other people's fantasy based top-down point and click games to upload it to and share a player base with once finished, but i guess it is what it is.

 

[MaoLi]

To you guys who have worked on wc3 custom games projects and know the world a bit more than stupid ole' me.
What's your opinion on the following engines:
- 0 a.d. engine
- godot engine
- UE 4

As compared to Unity (C#)?

thanks

 

[Cespie]

True that. i downloaded it and went through the first tutorial yesterday. Still wish there'd be a platform full of other people's fantasy based top-down point and click games to upload it to and share a player base with once finished, but i guess it is what it is.

If you develop a mobile game, you will have a very good platform for player entry. You can get a crazy amount of players with even the slightest bit of effort.
The downside is developing a mobile game...

To you guys who have worked on wc3 custom games projects and know the world a bit more than stupid ole' me.
What's your opinion on the following engines:
- 0 a.d. engine
- godot engine
- UE 4

As compared to Unity (C#)?

thanks

Unreal Engine is pretty cool if you have something ambitious in mind. It's definitely not on the beginner-friendly side though.

As for Unity… back in 2018, the CEO of Unity was able to exclaim that 60-70% of all games are now made using Unity… so uh... yeah. It's a very good bet.
Also, learning C# can be quite good for your career if you work in IT, even outside of game development.