[Altered Melee] Murloc Race Creation

[Hermit]

I still think the Reef Dragon should have some kind of anti-tower ability since each race has a flying unit with an anti-tower ability:
Dragonhawk Rider - Cloud
Troll Batrider - Liquid Fire
Chimaera - Corrosive Breath
Frost Wyrm - Freezing Breath
It could have a passive ability similar to Orb of Corruption (that only affects buildings).

I'm very much for giving the healing ability to someone other than casters for the sake of uniqueness.

Having a healer unit that isn't a caster is not a problem for a race that has 2 casters (Undead). However, I already have 3 casters, which is unusual and I think that at least one of them is bound to have a healing spell.

low attack power and mid-low HP armor

I'm using a slightly edited version of this model for the Reef Dragon. So, I think they should be more powerful than the Scavenger Drake Riders, not the other way around.

Fear from above: the reef dragon terrifies it's foes, lowering their attack damage by a small percentage (reverse kodo war drums ability).

↓↓↓​

I generally trend towards "Blizzard knew what they were doing". That means even though there are handfuls of Really Cool, Unique Ideas, I will sometimes reconsider even if I don't know the real reason. Specific Example: "Offensive Auras". Ever notice that there really aren't any in the game? We have Unholy Aura (+HP Regen & +MS), but there's no "Plague Aura" (-HP Regen & -MS). No "Armor Break Aura" (reverse Devotion), no "Mind Sap Aura" (reverse Brilliance), etc.
...
if Blizzard didn't do it, there must/might be a good reason.

 

[cleavinghammer]

I always thought negative auras was a problem with ranged heroes being extremely ineffective.

Reef Dragon's OoC effect sounds good, though if the buff doesn't show up there might be a problem.

 

[Scias]

Here's my suggestions on skills for Murloc heroes and units:

Water Outbreak - Creates a pool of water at target area, slowing movement speed of all enemy units that pass through the area while increasing movement speed of all murlocs.

Sea Sickness - Casts a debuff on a target enemy unit which lasts x(long) duration, applying dizziness effect every x(medium) duration which lasts for x(short) duration. Dizzy unit has reduced movement speed and attack rate, and/or higher chance to miss.

Fishing Rod - Throws a fishing lure at a target location, if the lure lands on a unit, the targeted unit is dragged to the caster. (Should probably be a hero ability)

Fission - This unit splits into 2 units of the same kind. (Basically lava spawn split but you decide when it happens)

Ensnare Trap - Places a trap in target location which lasts x(long) seconds. Once enemy unit walks over it, it is ensnared for x(medium) seconds.

Rain - Causes rain to pour down in small area, healing friendly units. (This can be used for a healer unit, it's basically tranquility which would heal less health in a smaller area so you'd have to place multiple of these units in different places of your army for full efficiency)

Murloc Escape - Unit becomes invisible, leaving a visible and weaker clone of itself behind, also gains movement speed but at a cost of x amount of health. (Kinda like how lizards drop their tail to escape)

Water Bubble - Creates a shield around target friendly unit, reducing damage of spells done onto this unit by x%. (So it's like the water absorbs % of the damage the spell is supposed to do)

 

[Nowow]

I generally trend towards "Blizzard knew what they were doing". That means even though there are handfuls of Really Cool, Unique Ideas, I will sometimes reconsider even if I don't know the real reason. Specific Example: "Offensive Auras". Ever notice that there really aren't any in the game? We have Unholy Aura (+HP Regen & +MS), but there's no "Plague Aura" (-HP Regen & -MS). No "Armor Break Aura" (reverse Devotion), no "Mind Sap Aura" (reverse Brilliance), etc. Why? For a while I fought this & included lots of "offensive auras"... But at this point, I've pared most of them away to just having 1 or 2. Why? I'm not sure. But if Blizzard didn't do it, there (must/might) be a good reason.

With all due respect, I disagree. I can think of very few minor reasons not to use offensive auras. Also, you said you want to make a unique race - and that means diverting from the conventions set by Blizzard.

As to the reef dragon, consider this: you have have a tamed Drake (basically hyppo rider), what would make you use a reef dragon? Is it much stronger? It's not an ultimate unit, so it must not be that much stronger/more expansive. Is it a sort of reversal on mountain giant/chimera (this could actually be good)? But even the mountain giant has several abilities. My point is, I have no problem with the reef dragon having a tower ability, but it should have another thing. Also, if it's like a hyppo rider it'll be pretty strong and costly on it's own (at least the actual hyppo is), so if you want to make the reef dragon stronger but not the ultimate that gives a very tight space to maneuver in.

 

[Hermit]

Reef Dragon's OoC effect sounds good, though if the buff doesn't show up there might be a problem.

Hmm... This is strange; I just tested a few random melee maps and I noticed buildings don't get buff indicators at all, even from those abilities that normally should give them a buff indicator (Cloud, Freezing Breath). Am I the only one having this problem?
EDIT: Never mind, I found the answer here.

Water Outbreak - Creates a pool of water at target area, slowing movement speed of all enemy units that pass through the area while increasing movement speed of all murlocs.

That sounds just like the Sea Witch's Flood ability, except for the increasing movement speed part.

Sea Sickness - Casts a debuff on a target enemy unit which lasts x(long) duration, applying dizziness effect every x(medium) duration which lasts for x(short) duration. Dizzy unit has reduced movement speed and attack rate, and/or higher chance to miss.

Thanks. One of the casters will surely have a similar debuff.

Fishing Rod - Throws a fishing lure at a target location, if the lure lands on a unit, the targeted unit is dragged to the caster. (Should probably be a hero ability)

↓↓↓​

I don't like knockbacks/pushing/dragging/sliding, since none of the standard abilities have it.

Fission - This unit splits into 2 units of the same kind. (Basically lava spawn split but you decide when it happens)

I don't know what unit could have it.

Ensnare Trap - Places a trap in target location which lasts x(long) seconds. Once enemy unit walks over it, it is ensnared for x(medium) seconds.

I don't have a "trapper" unit, but it's an interesting idea for a hero ability.

Rain - Causes rain to pour down in small area, healing friendly units. (This can be used for a healer unit, it's basically tranquility which would heal less health in a smaller area so you'd have to place multiple of these units in different places of your army for full efficiency)

I've had the same idea ever since I started with this, but I'm still not sure about it since casters usually don't have channeling spells.

Murloc Escape - Unit becomes invisible, leaving a visible and weaker clone of itself behind, also gains movement speed but at a cost of x amount of health. (Kinda like how lizards drop their tail to escape)

That could very well be one of Nightcrawler's abilities (just needs a better name).

Water Bubble - Creates a shield around target friendly unit, reducing damage of spells done onto this unit by x%. (So it's like the water absorbs % of the damage the spell is supposed to do)

The concept is really similar to my Water Shield spell, but the effect is different. I think it would be better if it reduced all Magic damage dealt to the unit, not just spell damage.

With all due respect, I disagree. I can think of very few minor reasons not to use offensive auras.

It's not that I don't use them, I just don't use them as typical auras. E.g. I'm using a negative Devotion Aura for my Shadow Ward spell.

Also, you said you want to make a unique race - and that means diverting from the conventions set by Blizzard.

Well, "uniqueness" is relative. I want to make an original race, but it should fit with the standard 4 races.

Is it a sort of reversal on mountain giant/chimera (this could actually be good)?

What do you mean?

I have no problem with the reef dragon having a tower ability, but it should have another thing.

I agree.

Also, if it's like a hyppo rider it'll be pretty strong and costly on it's own (at least the actual hyppo is), so if you want to make the reef dragon stronger but not the ultimate that gives a very tight space to maneuver in.

I won't make it stronger if that means making it imbalanced. Should I nerf it's attack and HP, make it cost 2 food and scale down the model?

 

[Nowow]

do you mean?

I was thinking about the duality of chimeras and mountain giants in the NE race. The mountain giants are not ultimate, but they're still very expansive (more than the chimeras actually). However, they're strictly a tanking/siege unit with low damage vs units. That just wouldn't go with a flying unit, they can't tank. Although... See below, (I'm sorry for bombarding with ideas XD)

I won't make it stronger if that means making it imbalanced. Should I nerf it's attack and HP, make it cost 2 food and scale down the model?

That is a possibility. Although now that I see the model it'll be a real shame to make it small and less noticeable. This might end up being very overpowered, but I wonder if making a sort of aerial tank with low damage available in tier 3 would be a good way to solve this. This is the case:

Lowering a building's armor is a very slippery slope. Almost always, buildings will have 5 armor. Lowering from that will reduce the armor percentage a lot (vanilla OoC will turn it to 0, that's way too much). So, if you give the reef dragon an OoC with low effect duration and low attack, it'll become invaluable in sieges, but only with other units to dish the actual damage. Pair that with a rather high survivability and another support ability, and you've got yourself an aerial tank. In sieges the enemy just wouldn't be able to ignore them. But again, this could be broken very easily if stats are done wrong.

 

[Scias]

Water Outbreak - Creates a pool of water at target area, slowing movement speed of all enemy units that pass through the area while increasing movement speed of all murlocs.

That sounds just like the Sea Witch's Flood ability, except for the increasing movement speed part.

Yeah but it wouldn't be channeling, casts on target location, and doesn't do damage to buildings. Sea Witch's ability to me sounds like Stampede/Earthquake/Tornado/Death and Decay type of spell. This can be a unit ability, so the unit with this ability would be like orc Raider/nightelf Dryad type of unit that helps you chase down enemies.

Fishing Rod - Throws a fishing lure at a target location, if the lure lands on a unit, the targeted unit is dragged to the caster. (Should probably be a hero ability)

I don't like knockbacks/pushing/dragging/sliding, since none of the standard abilities have it.

I believe there was a item in standard game called "Monster Lure" which would lure monsters from target area to the caster, it worked only on creeps though and would lure monsters in area of effect - I don't think the item was ever used but this shows that Blizzard has originally thought of a similar ability, and had implemented it in the game. The ability I have in mind is inspired by this item, and it's basically the same thing except it would work on both creeps and player units and would target a single unit instead of area of effect.

I don't want to burden you with having to explain your decisions to me, but I'd just like to give you my input on these knockback/pushing/dragging/slidding abilities. They're really basic abilities, like the most of Warcraft 3 abilities are, so I think they would fit in. I believe if Blizzard kept making expansions for Warcraft 3 such abilities would exist eventually (example: Stitches Hook from Heroes of the Storm). Adding some fresh abilities that are to be expected from Blizzards expansions shouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion.

Fission - This unit splits into 2 units of the same kind. (Basically lava spawn split but you decide when it happens)

I don't know what unit could have it.

I was thinking one of the low tier units, so splitting the unit wouldn't make it over powered, I guess it can be Coastrunner's ability. It can be balanced by making it weaker than the regular units of the same tier. I think it would be harder to balance it for stronger units, but it could work if you give it a long cooldown or make the units split into 2 slightly weaker versions.

Rain - Causes rain to pour down in small area, healing friendly units. (This can be used for a healer unit, it's basically tranquility which would heal less health in a smaller area so you'd have to place multiple of these units in different places of your army for full efficiency)

I've had the same idea ever since I started with this, but I'm still not sure about it since casters usually don't have channeling spells.

I think that's exactly a good reason to make spell casters with channeling spells. Making it something special for this race.

 

[Hermit]

That is a possibility. Although now that I see the model it'll be a real shame to make it small and less noticeable.

Exactly.

I wonder if making a sort of aerial tank with low damage available in tier 3 would be a good way to solve this.

How many tier 3 units are too many? I already have Flesheaters and Hydras.

Lowering a building's armor is a very slippery slope. Almost always, buildings will have 5 armor. Lowering from that will reduce the armor percentage a lot (vanilla OoC will turn it to 0, that's way too much).

So, I should set it to 1 or 2?

Yeah but it wouldn't be channeling, casts on target location, and doesn't do damage to buildings. Sea Witch's ability to me sounds like Stampede/Earthquake/Tornado/Death and Decay type of spell. This can be a unit ability, so the unit with this ability would be like orc Raider/nightelf Dryad type of unit that helps you chase down enemies.

I know, but those 2 abilities are still very similar (and I don't think I could find another water field model for it).

I believe there was a item in standard game called "Monster Lure" which would lure monsters from target area to the caster, it worked only on creeps though and would lure monsters in area of effect - I don't think the item was ever used but this shows that Blizzard has originally thought of a similar ability, and had implemented it in the game. The ability I have in mind is inspired by this item, and it's basically the same thing except it would work on both creeps and player units and would target a single unit instead of area of effect.

Monster Lure just periodically orders nearby creeps to move to the position of the ward, it doesn't drag them to it.

I believe if Blizzard kept making expansions for Warcraft 3 such abilities would exist eventually (example: Stitches Hook from Heroes of the Storm). Adding some fresh abilities that are to be expected from Blizzards expansions shouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion.

I get what you're saying, but we can't know what would have happened if Blizzard had kept making expansions and I don't want to speculate.

I was thinking one of the low tier units, so splitting the unit wouldn't make it over powered, I guess it can be Coastrunner's ability. It can be balanced by making it weaker than the regular units of the same tier. I think it would be harder to balance it for stronger units, but it could work if you give it a long cooldown or make the units split into 2 slightly weaker versions.

I don't think it would make much sense if Coastrunners had that ability. They can already mount Scavenger Drakes (and dismount) and I think the race already has enough abilities that can split and/or merge units (Slaves can be garrisoned inside Murloc Huts and also combine to form a Mangonel and Hydras can split into Lesser Hydras).

I think that's exactly a good reason to make spell casters with channeling spells. Making it something special for this race.

I'm curious to get more opinions on this, but I guess you're right.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'm curious to get more opinions on this...

Gah. I've been typing for the last day & a half to get just a part of my response out. It's coming.

 

[Hermit]

Gah. I've been typing for the last day & a half to get just a part of my response out. It's coming.

I'm looking forward to your reply, but take your time.

 

[MogulKahn]

I am curious to know why did you picked to make a Murloc race exactly?

 

[Hermit]

I am curious to know why did you picked to make a Murloc race exactly?

Well, as I said ↓↓↓

I was inspired by Warcraft III Demo (campaign)

I've also seen altered melee maps with races that are even more underrepresented (e.g. Gnolls) and I thought to myself, 'why not make a map with Murlocs?'

flying unit with relatively low attack power and mid-low HP armor

By the way, I had one more idea; a flying mechanical unit. However, murlocs are semi-aquatic creatures and they look funny in aircraft.

Murloc Aviator

 

[Dehua_Darbuya]

That Murloc Aviator looks out of place within that weird helicopter-like machine.

As for your Sea Turtle, you could just give it the same abilities it's neutral hostile counterpart has (Devour and Spiked Shell) with a melee siege attack. That way ranged units, especially those with magic attack, would be effective against it. I was thinking your Drakes could have an anti-air ability to provide some cover for your Sea Turtles against aerial units but that might be a touch OP. The gist I'm trying to get at here is a anti-melee siege unit vulnerable to ranged, and specifically, aerial attacks.

The issue with creating an anti-tower ability for your Reef Dragon is trying to find something that doesn't overlap with existing abilities. All I could think of giving it the Demolish ability, a crit that only worked on structures or a single-target nuke that would do double damage on buildings.

There's a lot of stuff that can be addressed here so I thought I'd just pick out a couple of things. One last idea: you could rename Separation Capability as Mitosis (I think this name was used in a map with a Hydra unit that had a similar ability).

 

[Hermit]

That Murloc Aviator looks out of place within that weird helicopter-like machine.

Yes, I know.

As for your Sea Turtle, you could just give it the same abilities it's neutral hostile counterpart has (Devour and Spiked Shell)

Kodo Beasts have Devour and Crypt Lord has Spiked Carapace. So, I'm with Kyrbi0 ↓

In the standard game, there are only a small handful of "repeat" abilities

cleavinghammer suggested an alternative, Devour/Regurgitate ↓

Devour/Regurgitate: Devours an enemy unit. Casting Regurgitate spits the unit back out at the target point, dealing damage in an AoE. Regurgitated unit has Dizziness.

However, it seems overpowered; a few turtles could devour entire creep camps, transport them to your base and then spit them out so you can finish them off with the help of other units and towers. I don't think creeps would even return to their previous position after turtles spit them out. So, you could make barriers out of creeps anywhere on the map and use them against enemies. Also, the ability technically doesn't have a cooldown (i.e. devour time) since the devoured unit can be spat out at any time.

The issue with creating an anti-tower ability for your Reef Dragon is trying to find something that doesn't overlap with existing abilities. All I could think of giving it the Demolish ability, a crit that only worked on structures or a single-target nuke that would do double damage on buildings.

What about this? ↓

a passive ability similar to Orb of Corruption (that only affects buildings)

you could rename Separation Capability as Mitosis

Maybe I'm wrong since I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the term mitosis is only used when talking about cell division.

 

[cleavinghammer]

The creep barrier idea seems far too impractical in terms of time (not to mention basically giving the enemy free gold, experience and items). Also I think you can limit the level of the unit swallowed.

In any case, there is a limit (how much HP the devoured unit has), but you can probably work another limit (i.e. can only be regurgitated 10 seconds after devouring, then gets swallowed).

The flying murloc is hilarious and should definitely be used somehow.

 

[Nowow]

However, it seems overpowered; a few turtles could devour entire creep camps

If they're available only in tier 3 then it's highly unlikely to happen.

 

[Hermit]

can only be regurgitated 10 seconds after devouring, then gets swallowed

Ah, that sounds better.

If they're available only in tier 3 then it's highly unlikely to happen.

I don't want to have too many tier 3 units, so either the Sea Turtle will be available in tier 2 or the Reef Dragon.

By the way, each race has a mechanical siege unit that gets a passive ability when an upgrade is researched:
Siege Engine - Barrage
Demolisher - Burning Oil
Glaive Thrower - Vorpal Blades
Meat Wagon - Disease Cloud

So, the Mangonel should also have one. Does anyone have any ideas?

 

[Dehua_Darbuya]

Yes, I know.

Kodo Beasts have Devour and Crypt Lord has Spiked Carapace. So, I'm with Kyrbi0 ↓

cleavinghammer suggested an alternative, Devour/Regurgitate ↓

However, it seems overpowered; a few turtles could devour entire creep camps, transport them to your base and then spit them out so you can finish them off with the help of other units and towers. I don't think creeps would even return to their previous position after turtles spit them out. So, you could make barriers out of creeps anywhere on the map and use them against enemies. Also, the ability technically doesn't have a cooldown (i.e. devour time) since the devoured unit can be spat out at any time.

What about this? ↓


Maybe I'm wrong since I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the term mitosis is only used when talking about cell division.

Fair enough. It's @Kyrbi0 after all, you can't argue with him!

I don't mind that Devour/Regurgitate combo but I'm not a huge fan of it either. Seems a little odd to me; can't quite put my finger on it.

I vaguely recall someone bringing up something about how most melee structures have 5 armour and that having an Orb of Corruption ability might be a tad too strong but you could always adjust the numbers I guess (It's a long thread).

True; mitosis is the division of cells. I thought it'd be more poetic than Separation Capability. It's not like Inner Fire literally sets a target unit's internal organs ablaze.

 

[Scias]

Ah, that sounds better.

I don't want to have too many tier 3 units, so either the Sea Turtle will be available in tier 2 or the Reef Dragon.

By the way, each race has a mechanical siege unit that gets a passive ability when an upgrade is researched:
Siege Engine - Barrage
Demolisher - Burning Oil
Glaive Thrower - Vorpal Blades
Meat Wagon - Disease Cloud

So, the Mangonel should also have one. Does anyone have any ideas?

I think you should also keep in mind that all the passive abilities do aoe damage. That being said I think this is the best idea I came up with:

???? - Summons untargetable minions (something like worms/small murlocs/flies/mosquitoes/dragon flies) with each attack.
The summoned units do little damage to randomly targeted units (so it's kinda like loctus swarm), you could make it so they take damage over time instead of running out of duration. This would make for another aoe damage passive which would have different way of dealing damage than the rest (spawning units that target randomly), if you make it summon flying units it can possibly effect both air and ground so that would be unique for murlocs race, since only human siege has ability to damage air only and the rest damage ground only. There could be a reason why the ability brings the summoned units to the location, like for example: throws honey on target location to attract bees.
Or you could make it cast Parasites in aoe, but I think that would be too complicated.

Some other ideas:

???? - Causes each attack done on buildings to do damage over time, lasts x(long) duration, if the building is repaired the debuff is dispelled.

???? - Creates smoke or fog with each attack, units inside the fog have x% chance to miss.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I've realized that I can take one eternity to respond to the Ideas/Techtree, one eternity to respond to the Discussion, or two eternities to do both.

So I'm just going to do the Discussion first; the Ideas will always be there to comment on, but the all-important Discussion is evolving without me, so I don't wanna miss out. : )

Anyway, it looks like once again I'm going to have to break this up into sections by user (otherwise, it goes on for pages...). Please don't be afraid to read what I've written for others; in fact, I suggest it, because I may have responded to you as well. I tried to '@' you if I said something noteworthy. I got stuff for:

- @Hermit
- @MogulKahn
- @cleavinghammer
- @Nowow
- @Scias

Hermit

It steals buffs only when it's set on auto-cast. You can cast it manually to dispel buffs from both friendly and enemy units.

Woah. TIL.

Anti-magic Shell (not to be confused with Anti-magic Shell (Magic Resistance)) makes the target unit immune to magic and also dispels buffs from it. You can use it on friendly units to protect them from being Slowed, Cursed, Crippled, Polymorphed, etc. and you can also use it on creeps or enemy units to prevent them from casting Bloodlust, Frost Armor, Inner Fire, Heal, etc. on themselves.

I had no idea. I guess it makes sense (otherwise, would it keep the existing buffs without touching them?), but I'm honestly not sure I've ever used it in-game. I know I would never have used it for that (not fast enough). Huh. Ok then.

Destroys the Wisp, dispelling all magical buffs and draining 50 mana from each unit in an area around the Wisp. Deals 225 damage to summoned units.

Oh sick. I did not know that either. Heck, that would make a sick Hero ability now that I think about it; max out all the values & call it a "Mana/Psychic Nuke" or something; "Target an AoE, draining all the mana of target units & killing all summoned units. Dispels all buffs too".

I don't know, but it'd be easy either way. I can also make an ability that heals/damages and trigger the dispel.

Yeah, I suppose. One thing I'm bad at, at this point, is thinking of using triggering at all; I have begun, more & more, to just sorta exclude it, but there are some good times to use it. Hm.

Is 'triggering dispel' as easy as "remove all buffs from [target unit]"? Or is there something else you have to do (like flash 'spell immunity' on & off of it)?

I know, but when I saw some of your ideas here and now that list I couldn't help but to think you're a mind reader.

Lol. Wait, did I 'mind-read' myself? Or you?

I'm jazzed you read my topic. It's still my one-true source of (public) info; one day I'll be updating it again, and whenever something big happens it'll happen there first.

I hope you finish it someday. Although my idea is more modest, it still requires a lot of work. *Sigh* I wish I had more free time.

Boy, I feel ya man. Thank you; I hope to finish someday as well. I think I am close; closer than I have ever been. It's hard to describe, but the feeling as you look at your techtree, the heroes/units/abilities/racial-themes, and feel to yourself "ah, ok, this looks ok/good/right". There's no such thing as "perfect", but we can get close to our vision of it.

Wait, what are you doing that's more modest than me?

I think I already have a map with the triggers somewhere in my Spells folder (that's getting very congested with things I'll never use).

ForFrigginSerious, mate. SMH.

Maybe I'll give my Nightcrawler hero an ability that works like that; I'd call it Smoke Cloud, Enveloping Shadows, Shadow Dance or something like that.

'Shadow Dance' is definitely the coolest of those 3 options. Unless there's a natural 'water/ocean' phenomenon that could explain it as well ("Inky Depths"?).

Looks like each race should have at least one mobile summon (that's not a ward).

Hum. Good point. (Now to decide whether to follow the precedent or don't & call it a "racial uniqueness", lol. See below).

I get what you're saying, but afaik Blizzard, Starfall, Rain of Fire and Flame Strike do have damage reduction vs Structures. (Data - Building Redution field), while Shockwave and Cluster Rockets don't.

Oh yeah, no I know. I'm sorry if my wording wasn't clear. Ignore the first parenthetical; that was examples of ones that do have Reduced Damage vs. Buildings.

I didn't want to overload you with information, but since you said you were interested, I posted everything (further down).

...to overload you...

...overload...

*looks at my previous posts in this thread*
Naw man, you'd have to do a lot more than that. ; P

Cool! I never even tried something like that.

Really? To be fair neither have I so I'm not sure if it'll work 100%, but I can't imagine why some wouldn't (like reducing armor or Stunning). It's basically the inverse of using building-affecting abilities on units.

That sounds like a great idea, but I'm not sure how would that work. Would the Living Wildfire be vulnerable or even selectable and should it be stationary or be able to move?

That's up to you, and up to Balance. But for me, my intention was that it be invulnerable, un-selectable, and mobile; basically a spell effect replicated with a summoning spell. The "fires" would have Permanent Immolation to deal damage (leave them with a 0-damage attack only so they hone in & move towards enemies). I don't want them destroyed, nor do I want the player to be able to move them; I just want it to organically move around & grow. Like a "Wildfire".

It's not bad, but in the demo campaign Blizz gave murlocs a cave home that was burning with fire and lava, so I planned his abilities to be more more lava-ish, not based on Sun rays/Solar power.

Eh. *files it away for his heroes*

Well, besides one upgrade that gives all organic ground units increased regeneration when they're in water, I don't think I really have any racially-themed abilities.

Ah, there, you are confusing my use of the word "Theme" with what I would consider "Role".

Read my post in this thread (actually, the whole thread might not be a bad idea; lots of opposing viewpoints to consider on this subject). To save you time, the part your looking for can be found by Searching for "good question"; start there (but also consider reading the part starting at/Searching for "MCV").

Basically, "Theme" (or as I'm starting to call it: "Form") is all about the looks, the aesthetics, the presentation, the visuals. Models, icons, tooltips, lore; all that. "Role" (blah blah: "Function") is all about the mechanics, the style, the actual 'what-it-does'. I hold Form & Function to be the two primary elements of design, a 'core' or 'kernel' which fits every hero, unit, race... game... thing. More in the linked post.

~

What this means, in context, is that when I say "racially-Themed", I mean specifically 'Themed' or it's 'Form'; so you have a debuff that dispels & slows down enemies? Cool, for Trolls I'll call it "Voodoo Curse", but for Murlocs I'd call it "Grip of Tides" or something. Racially-Themed.

However, an ability that gives increased HP regen in water is more of a racial 'mechanic', which is "Role" (or 'Function'). You are right, you probably don't need an awful too many of those.

I have something like that (Slime Splash).

Great minds think alike.

Those two were a bit easier for me and I managed to come up with quite a few abilities for them, but I had to get rid of most of them so I wouldn't have too many abilities of the same type (e.g. unit-target or AoE) or too many abilities that have the same effect (e.g. slow). There are also some other factors (they can't all have an aura or a passive ability, since each of the 4 races has at least one hero whose abilities are all active).

Ah yes, good points.
Huh, never noticed that, but yeah. Blood Mage, Shadow Hunter, Lich, Warden. (Very interesting how all but one of them are the new TFT Heroes; further solidifies my proposition that TFT began a sort of "complexity creep" in Warcraft. I wonder how intentional it was?...)

Yes, but nothing is final yet, so she doesn't have to be the supportive one.

Cool. Something to consider.

I wanted to use what I have and that demo campaign is the only part of Warcraft's history where Murlocs aren't depicted as just stupid creeps. They even showed the ability to speak and their society was highly organized compared to other murlocs, with buildings that trained fighting units, heroes and attack tower buildings.

That's pretty neat. Yeah, I suppose that is the one & only point for them, and it's cool that you use that as inspiration/motivation. "Make Murlocs Great Again"!

However, I have to agree; that demo campaign is full of strange things and his design is pretty illogical. Murlocs even used Siege Golems in their army, but I scrapped them since that didn't make any sense to me.

You're right. I just thought, fire seems destructive and they gave him Rain of Fire, so he should be a siege caster. I probably need to consider all the other hero's abilities before defining his role, so I don't end up with heroes that have overlapping roles.

Yeah, that's really my only point there. It's good to take inspiration, but one can be too dogmatic in ones' approach (I'm one to talk, lol). To inspiration, specifically.

And about the "Sea Witch", I think her abilities should be more focused on the "Sea" part and not so much on curses/debuffs since she's not a typical Witch/Hag. (She was like a goddess that murlocs worshiped and the Sorcerer referred to her as "the exalted one").

That's a really good point; the Name of a thing can be simultaneously "Really Important" and "Not Important At All", and I regularly embrace that dichotomy.

In this case, "Tide Hag" (I do think that is the definitive version of "Sea Witch" by the way, so I'll just call her that) is a name, and really more of the name given to her by others, not herself (or even her Murloc buddies). She might be called "Ocean Spirit" or "Sea Specter" or something, or maybe go with that "Exalted One" stuff (or a combo: "Exalted Phantom"? "Special Shade"? <-lol). Good thoughts.

Hmm... I haven't thought about that, but now that you mention it, I don't need to make him that similar to the Sorceror from the demo campaign. Not all of his abilities need to be fire-based and it would make a lot more sense. This opens up many possibilities.

Absolutely, glad I could help. That's kinda my speciality; look for the openings & see what you can explore.

So do you have any preferences, then, if you move away from the 'fire/lava' thing?

I don't know how could I make that without making it look like a copy of Dragonhawk Rider's Cloud.

Well, it would be... But on the ground & only for units, right?

Well, I don't like knockbacks/pushing/dragging/sliding, since none of the standard abilities have it.

Hmm... I don't know that I noticed that. I would classify that all as "mobility", and Warcraft does do some mobility stuff, like Mass Teleport & Waygates... Ah dannae. I do think knockback is a little much, but I've seen it done well. And as for otherwise moving units around... One of my Trolls does that (sorta), and a custom hero I made (designed as if to fit in the Neutral Tavern) for the recent Hero Contest actually specialized in 'moving units around' (one ability would push all enemies in an AoE towards a single point, damaging them; the other was a summonable 'nydus canal' from Starcraft for allies, basically).

Hm.

It's basically the same as Pulverize and I don't know what unit could have it.

Yes, but it's a *hero*-version of Pulverize, which would be an example of "technically unique".

The hardest part would be finding a fitting Stagnant Water model.

Does that mean you like it?

Eh, you're a modeler. You'll manage. : ) More likely, a simple Request thread would help.

Healing Ward?

Yeah, but it's indestructible (Fountain), and heals more. Personally, I could see it as a Hero ability; but only with some requisite addition to the healing (like a buffing aura, or regenerating mana too, or something).

Those would be cool for a Sea Giant, but I don't have any of them in this map.

Oh nonsense, they'd work fine for Murlocs too. And if the name bugs you, just change it; ^What's In A Name? : ) How about "Swamp Strike" & "Rain Dance"? Or "Water Hammer" & "Croak of Courage"?

I never played tomoraider's maps, but they look like campaigns and I'm making an altered melee map.

Well, he made campaigns, yes, but featuring custom factions of his own design. He made Forsaken (!) & Blood Elves AFAIK. The factions appeared relatively well-designed, though not entirely custom/up to code.

Could Finger of Death (Archimonde) be a decent ultimate if it had a mana cost?

Are you sure you only have one account? ; P I responded to this very question elsewhere.

Is an aura that gives magic resistance a good or a bad idea?

Hm, neat idea. I'm sure it's a good idea; the question is, if it's balanced. : ) That, I'm not sure. I feel like it's relatively strong, though. Ultimate-worthy? Or is an aura-Ultimate too boring?

Every race (with the exception of Undead; they only have DK) has a few mounted ground units:
Humans - Archmage and Knights
Orcs - Far Seer, Raiders and Kodo Beasts
Night Elves - Priestess of the Moon and Huntresses (Maybe also Keeper of the Grove and Dryads, since they're half deer)
Undead - Death Knight
Mounted units usually have higher movement speed, but since I don't have any riders, I wonder how I'll justify the unusual movement speed variations. Do I really need mounted units? Besides slow-moving Sea Turtles, I have no idea what other amphibious creatures could murlocs ride.

I'm not sure how I feel about Murlocs riding anything, to be honest (and I've seen your mounted Scavenger Drake). One of the few things I can envision is the whole "swaying atop a Turtle", perhaps on a throne/palanquin/houdah; and that's not particularly fast. It bespeaks a certain primitive understanding of riding; I can't envision the Murlocs as intelligently husbanding animals to ride, y'know? (this may very well be exactly what you were going for; surprisingly intelligent Murlocs with an actual culture & stuff).

And in fact, this is not without precedent. As you pointed out in your list, the Undead are remarkably short on true mounted units; in fact, they have but one mounted hero and not a single mounted unit. Could be lots of reasons why, but part of it, I imagine, is that it just didn't make sense; Undead things don't need a guiding hand to ride them, the Lich King controls them all individually. Who rides a Crypt Fiend (sentient by themselves)? Or a Gargoyle, or a Destroyer, or a Frost Wyrm... They are cool enough as they are. (to be fair, I'm not against Undead mounted units; keenly felt their loss, in fact, and enjoy models like skeletal knights & what-not)

So the Murlocs could indeed be like this (little/no mounted units) and it be OK; the "fast movespeed" issue is a non-issue to me (simply come up with a reason for a fast(er) unit (by reason I mean "write in the tooltip", i.e. "Murloc Coastrunner: Agile melee unit gifted with speed, able to learn __ & ___". I mean, essentially you're saying "Murlocs are spawned, some with different gifts. Some are strong for fighting, some smart for magery, some agile for speed". This can be accentuated by proper model editing (mess with the mesh to make them thicker or thinner, more gangly & longer legs for speed))

As yet another alternative, they could indeed mount; each other. Look up "palanquin" and tell me that's not a cool idea. A fancy high priest Murloc being carried in a fancy chair by a bunch of slave murlocs? Noice. Also, consider magically-floating thrones & such, ala the WH Slaan.

Also, every race has at least one unit with Spell Immunity (Spell Breaker, Faerie Dragon, Dryad, Destroyer). Orcs don't have a magic immune unit, but they have Ethereal Spirit Walker that's immune to physical attacks. So, should I give any of my units Spell Immunity?

Probably. 3/4 did it, so if you can come up with even a reasonable excuse, I would (here's a thought; you have only 11 units and need one more*... What about a Hermit Crab? Some kind of crustacean, at least, with a thick shell... That's an easy sell for "Spell Immunity", and you can decide on it's Role/Function later (bad form, but what the heck).

On the other hand, at least one race (Horde) did not, so there's precedent to avoid it. Just make sure you compensate in some other way (unsure exactly how, to be honest; what do the Orcs have? Lots of dispels? Just a general, racial weakness? Hard to know).

Different towers shouldn't look the same, a human player needs to be able to tell them apart at a glance. Maybe put a special effect using whichever murloc type they're garisonned with?

The tower has "Upgrade" animations with different murlocs that stand on the platform and attack enemy units in range. So, they're always visible.

@Hermit, this is actually quite a salient point. I know you have this cool 'garrison' plan, like the RA2 IFV, but you've got to make sure it's really obvious from a distance. It's a thing in games I call "the Silhouette Principle"; in order for players to really come to grips, aesthetically, with a game, the important game elements (if not everything) has to be extremely recognizable, even from a distance, and even if distanced from all normal visual cues (color, shade, details, etc). Basically, the silhouette needs to be distinct. TF2 absolutely rocks this principle; look it up. Warcraft does a great job too; even from a distance (which, technically is the whole game), it's easy to tell what unit is what... And that's essential for proper game-play. If two units looked/moved just alike (say, oh I dunno, Horde-aligned Jungle "Troll Headhunters" and Troll-aligned Jungle Troll "Hunters", well... You're gonna have a bad time.)

So anyway, lesson is: make sure it's super-obvious (silhouette-wise) what each tower looks like. Ala the Human tower-scheme.

I guess you're right, but I just want to have as many original things as possible.

No, you're right, keep pushing forward.

I guess I'll remove it then.

Yes, I definitely need a healing spell.

Well, you need some Healing functionality; might be a spell, might be a building, might even be an item (don't forget those).
- Alliance: Holy Light (Paladin), Heal (Priest, Initiate), Scroll of Regeneration (Arcane Vault, T1)
- Horde: Healing Wave (Shadow Hunter), Healing Ward (Witch Doctor, Master), Healing Salve (Voodoo Lounge, T1)
- Scourge: Death Coil (Death Knight), Essence of Blight (Obsidian Statue), Scroll of Healing (Tomb of Relics, T3)
- Sentinels: Tranquility (Keeper of the Grove, Ultimate), Rejuvenation (Druid of the Claw)

Not counting personal/Hero healing (i.e. Potions of Healing in every racial shop, nor Cannibalize), nor enhanced regeneration (i.e. Troll Berserker, Gargoyle Stone Form, Undead-on-Blight), there's heal spells (both heroes & units, both single/multi-target & AoE, both straight Heals & Heals-Over-Time), but also heal-items. No race has fewer than 2 methods of healing; most have 3 (including an item).

So maybe something to consider.

I know some names are kinda stupid, I ran out of ideas. Do you have any suggestions? I don't know if this helps, but the "Town Hall" is the tallest building in this screenshot and the "upgrader" is right next to it.

Names: Outpost/Settlement/Colony (I'm assuming that's the t3 hall in the picture). Sea Sawmill, alas, is too good a pun, so maybe just Carpentry, Woodworker's Hut or Storehouse.

Boy do I. : )

@Hermit: First off, question: What role do the Naga play in this whole shebang? Are you making a campaign with these guys, where they might interact (un/favorably) with the Naga at all? Because otherwise, this being a simple 5th-race addition (ha, 'simple'), that means you can basically re-use whatever you want from the Naga race in yours. In fact, you already have with the Slave. More on this later, but specifically for the above question:

Shrine of the Sea
Temple of Tides*
Sanctuary of the Depths

Coastal Shack
Seabed Manor
Trench Palace

Coastal Shack/Shrine
Colony of Scales
Aquatic Settlement

Probably more, but most are variants on "Name-for-Water - Name-for-House".

The "upgrader" is tricky... One question is, what/how are they upgrading? Humans forge metals at a Blacksmith, Orcs smith & burn stuff at a War Mill, Undead research spooky stuff at a Graveyard (lol), while Night Elves train as hunters at the Hunter's Hall. What do Murlocs do (aside from grglmlgmemrgl)? And what are there weapons made out of, that they will be upgrading?

I rather like "Storehouse", actually. "Carpentry"/"Woodworking Hut" seem weird (do they really deal with carpentry? Maybe they have to...)

Maybe I'll (re)design the Tidecaller to be an anti-caster.

Might not hurt. One thing (mentioned in my Megapost linked above) is that TFT brought about some big racial changes that evince a pattern; specifically, the introduction of an anti-magic functionality to each race (mostly in unit-form). Spell Breaker, Faerie Dragon (& ~Dryad), Destroyer; only the Orcs with their Spirit Walkers are sorta questionable (and still, got a good dispel & Spirit Link which mitigates all damage, including spells). A "caster anti-caster" is a reasonably creative idea (i.e. doesn't currently exist). *cough*.

Yes, but I think the Sea Turtle should be some kind of siege unit.

Don't be too determined to set that Role/Function in stone. I can see a Dragon Turtle also providing great tanking (melee-range Bite, big thick shell, high priority, etc), and/or a solid 'mount' (as discussed above) for just about anything (ranged soldier/cavalry mage/siege engine), etc.

Not really; Slaves are worker units and their movement speed is 190. The Mangonel is similar to the Orc Demolisher/Catapult and has a movement speed of 220.

Hm. Then perhaps the opposite is true; Mangonels make moving your workers more easy than it should be. Could be problematic? Testing will tell.

To be clear, I like the creative idea (pair 2 workers to make a siege engine), and "Mangonel" is a good name, but it does seem a little weird, especially if the model of the worker doesn't have at least some kind of wood/contraption on them. It's like, where does it come from?? Maybe if they could only 'suit up' by going to the "Upgrader Bldg" (not just as a requirement, but like Call to Arms).

That could be abused. The Mangonel's HP is not a combination/portion of the Slaves' HP. It always forms with full HP. The reason why it doesn't take into account the Slaves' HP at the time is simply because forming a damaged, burning Mangonel would look silly. The Mangonel wouldn't even have to be repaired like all mechanical units if I added an ability that separates them.

Well, it might look silly, but it also introduces some serious balance issues and might mean going with the 'nonsensical' option. AFAIK, they can couple & de-couple anytime? So have some nearly-dead Slaves (being hammered by a Blademaster, let's say) couple into a Mangonel at full HP... Then soon after de-couple and (unless you saved their relative HP somewhere at coupling) both are at full HP again.
Not good.

I tried Curse and Faerie Fire. They work fine, but the buff indicator (E.g. This unit is Cursed; it can miss when it attacks) doesn't show.

Aw man! I was really hoping that would work unilaterally. Faerie Fire especially.

Wait, are you sure? I swear I've heard of someone doing that with FF.

Done. I also changed the name of the thread.

Looks wonderful. : )

Besides making the Reef Dragon have a siege attack type, how else can I make them more distinctive?

Honestly, I'm not sure if you need to (see above). The model itself is so distinct, it really just needs a place of honor, personally. That, or... Well, if I haven't said it yet, I don't want to wait for my "Techtree Response Post", so I'll touch this topic now: Have you considered the Murlocs being a race with extremely limited aerial capabilities (i.e. like the RoC Orcs, with only medium-power Wyvern Riders), or perhaps even being devoid of aerial units entirely? Honestly it's one of the first things I thought of (like, "how do sea-dwelling fish-men have flying things?"), and it could be a really unique selling-point of the faction while encouraging you to 'think outside the box' in order to ensure balance happens (i.e. they'd have to have some serious anti-air capabilities, and some method of scouting & 'extending influence' across the map in a way that air units normally do). I have been toying with it for the Naga, or the Nerubians, but it's just sorta sat there in my head, doing little.

I know you may want to avoid such a drastic divergence from the Blizzard norm, and I wouldn't fault you for that. I myself am only marginally sure it could be made to work... But it would be very interesting. And very fitting.

At the very least, consider restricting your Murloc's 'aerial prowess' to just one creature; it definitely solves your "differentiation" problem, opens a slot in the techtree, and solidifies them in the lore (as I see it). Just some food for thought.

Honestly, it seems kinda far–fetched.

Hey, I was with you, man, but the "Chum" angle is starting to sell me on it.

...Also, if a building is affected by a buff, that buff can't be removed since dispels can't target buildings.

Sure... Much like how dispels can't remove Freezing Breath, Corrosive Breath, Liquid Fire, Cloud... I see no problem there.

Most things aren't even close to being finalized and are subject to change (highlighted in orange). I'm by no means an expert on making a custom race and that's why I made this thread, to gather ideas and to get feedback.

It's positive to see such humility. But make sure to balance that with a well-deserved level of self-esteem; you are (if not already) working at being the Murloc Expert (a true "@Murlocologist", lol), versed in their Lore, their history, their race & culture... And making up whatever you can't research. ;P

You & I may never be on the level of Handclaw; pumping out seemingly-perfect ideas with seemingly-no uncertainty. But we can get close.

I still think the Reef Dragon should have some kind of anti-tower ability since each race has a flying unit with an anti-tower ability:
Dragonhawk Rider - Cloud
Troll Batrider - Liquid Fire
Chimaera - Corrosive Breath
Frost Wyrm - Freezing Breath
It could have a passive ability similar to Orb of Corruption (that only affects buildings).

I call it "Anti-Turtling", but I suppose since it's mainly about Towers & stopping them from attacking (with 3/4 of those), yeah.

Orb of Corruption? That's perfect. Very good idea; I'll have to use that (with credit). Lowering building armor is a great way to incentivize attacking it without outright killing it.

Having a healer unit that isn't a caster is not a problem for a race that has 2 casters (Undead). However, I already have 3 casters, which is unusual and I think that at least one of them is bound to have a healing spell.

Yeah, I could almost see you replacing one of those casters, unless you feel Murlocs are well-represented as a more 'magically-inclined' race. (It always confused me why the Horde of all the factions ends up with 3 casters, but I have recently realized it's a good way to show them moving away from their barbaric warrior-like backgrounds & towards a more peaceful, shamanic-centered future. I guess.)

I'm using a slightly edited version of this model for the Reef Dragon. So, I think they should be more powerful than the Scavenger Drake Riders, not the other way around.

Definitely. And ahh, such a classic model. "Slightly edited", eh? Aside from adding TC, whatcha do?

Hmm... This is strange; I just tested a few random melee maps and I noticed buildings don't get buff indicators at all, even from those abilities that normally should give them a buff indicator (Cloud, Freezing Breath). Is anyone else having this problem or just me?

I saw your Edited fix, and it worries me; does one have to mess with Gameplay Constants to make it work? I was hoping (in my mods) to modify as little as possible of the core gameplay stuff (like that)...

I don't know what unit could have it.

Actually, that sounds like a very neat ability, and if the Hydra weren't the T3OD, it could totally fit. As it is, I'd at least use the name; "Fission" is much better than the clunky over-descriptive "Separation Capability".

I've had the same idea ever since I started with this, but I'm still not sure about it since casters usually don't have channeling spells.

Hm, they don't, do they? I wonder why that is...

That could very well be one of Nightcrawler's abilities (just needs a better name).

Haven't gotten to this part yet, but yes, that's a fantastic ability idea (especially for fish-men, and almost certainly for the Nightcrawler (AGI heroes tend to have some utility 'escape' ability)).

I haven't played any of Ujimasa Hojo's maps yet, but I did "steal" some ideas from Fokyip's E.O.R. (Evolution of Races) maps. He included 16 races in a single map; that's really astonishing.

Lol, gotta check that out. Love fishing for ideas.

I get what you're saying, but we can't know what would have happened if Blizzard had kept making expansions and I don't want to speculate.

This is a good point. Perhaps even more importantly (for me), is that I am building my 5th-Race-Addition as if it had been made in RoC, and then for TFT. I actually planned unit/hero/building-additions, pretending as if I was solving the same problems they did with TFT (anti-caster, anti-turtling, etc). At least I attempted to.

By the way, I had one more idea; a flying mechanical unit. However, murlocs are semi-aquatic creatures and they look funny in aircraft.

Murloc Aviator

View attachment 258024

Lol... Pretty cool-looking, but certainly not for the actual race. At least, I hope. : )

Kodo Beasts have Devour and Crypt Lord has Spiked Carapace. So, I'm with Kyrbi0 ↓

Actually, if you read/read the part about "technically unique", I would argue that making a unit-version of the heroic Spiked Carapace is perfectly alright. You don't even have to call it the same, or have it be identical; it could just be the +Armor, or the Melee-Reflect.

cleavinghammer suggested an alternative, Devour/Regurgitate ↓

However, it seems overpowered; a few turtles could devour entire creep camps, transport them to your base and then spit them out so you can finish them off with the help of other units and towers. I don't think creeps would even return to their previous position after turtles spit them out. So, you could make barriers out of creeps anywhere on the map and use them against enemies. Also, the ability technically doesn't have a cooldown (i.e. devour time) since the devoured unit can be spat out at any time.

I kinda think that's unlikely. But as pointed out by others, relatively easy situation that you can prepare for & stop.

Maybe I'm wrong since I'm not a native English speaker, but I think the term mitosis is only used when talking about cell division.

No, you are right that that's how it's normally used. However, situations like this often call for a word like that to be used 'euphemistically', or (as Dehua put it) 'poetically'. "Mitosis" isn't perfect (will make some suggestions later), but it's much better, and definitely fine.

I don't want to have too many tier 3 units, so either the Sea Turtle will be available in tier 2 or the Reef Dragon.

Well, actually...

So each faction has a variety of things available at each Tier. However, Tier 3 is interesting; two races (Orcs & Night Elves) only have one Unit available at T3 (Tauren & Chimaera, respectively). The Humans & the Undead, however, have not 1, not 2, but 3 separate Tier 3 Units; advanced Alliance bases field Knights, Gryphon Riders, and Siege Engines, while advanced Scourge bases can yield Abominations, Frost Wyrms, and Destroyers.

I have no idea why this is. But it's clear to me that having anywhere from 1-3 T3 Units is no problem (especially if they are Heavy Melee or Heavy Ranged/Capital 'Ship'/T3OD, but don't forget 'special' stuff like the Alliance's T3 'uber-siege' and the Scourge's T3 'heavy flying anti-caster').

By the way, each race has a mechanical siege unit with a (learnable) passive ability:
Siege Engine - Barrage
Demolisher - Burning Oil
Glaive Thrower - Vorpal Blades
Meat Wagon - Disease Cloud

So, the Mangonel should also have one. Does anyone have any ideas?

That's a good find; I hadn't really considered that. I was about to suggest something (in the next post), but I'll shortcut that & say that Scias NAILED it. Perfect suggestion, you should totally do it.

*goes back to Troll race to figure out if I'm doing it right*

MogulKahn

Damn, that was a good read. Only 2 pages, but it looks like 6. Hahaha

*doffs hat*

Anyways, after reading all of this, I have to ask: aren't you guys overthinking "a bit"? For me perfect example is tomorider. Dude took few spells here, few abilites there, changed few of them, added few custom ones and BAM, you got 2 completely new unique races. And guess what? Those races were amazing!

Overthinking? Me/us? Naw... I've been known to do that.

However, I'm not sure the tomoraider comparison is apt; while I would not want to speak ill of all he has accomplished, I'm not sure he can be said to have accomplished "2 completely new unique races". (Disclaimer: I've downloaded them but actually haven't gotten around to playing them yet, so I can't speak to specifics, just what you say, but) I feel that what Tomoraider did worked for what he was trying to accomplish which was "making a campaign" first. The custom races, I feel, weren't central to his plan (like they are for myself, Hermit, people like Wa666r, etc). As such, much like the campaign races (Naga, Blood Elves, Draenei) it makes sense for there to be repeat stuff & some minimally-modded/switched abilities. And I'm sure they were great fun & worked fine. But not on the same level of rigor that we expect from our races.

About that buff stacking, can you elaborate a little more? What can I do to avoid that, if I am making a new map with custom races?

This assumes you are making something (custom races/heroes/abilities) that is supposed to "fit in" with the rest of the standard game; i.e. "5th-race addition" or whatnot.

Let's say you come up with a cool ability idea. "Reversed Inner Fire, for enemies! Lower's HP Regen & Armor for a short time; we'll call it "Outer Cold'! Aside from a dumb name, there's one big problem; since you're not a coder, you simply click "Create New Custom Ability", select 'Inner Fire', and then change the name & the stats & tooltip & all that. Why is that a problem? It works, right? (it does).

But now try to cast 'Outer Cold' on a unit that already has 'Inner Fire'. Suddenly it has Outer Cold... And it has replaced Inner Fire. The buff (& it's effect) are totally gone. WTHeck?

Blizzard, for reasons unknown to us, created a system of abilities & buffs whereby abilities that have lasting effects (shown through a Buff) cannot overlap effects. That's great for the standard, un-modded game; I wouldn't want 3 Necromancers casting 3 different, overlapping versions of Cripple on my hero for -120% movespeed, right? However... This is also the case with any version of an ability, even for modded abilities (i.e. custom abilities based off of that ability). Even with a custom buff, too. We call this not "Stacking"; the buffs (i.e. the little indicator & even the ability's effect) do not 'stack' with each other, they replace each other.

So your "Reverse Cripple" buff spell will not 'stack' with regular Cripple; your "Reverse Roar" debuff spell will not 'stack' with regular Roar. "Reverse Chain Lightning" would make a fine chain healing spell (although since TFT the Shadow Hunter's Healing Wave makes that dumb); it has no buff. Same with lots of other abilities. But if it has a buff, beware; it won't stack.

Needless to say, this drastically limits what we can do as modders. :<

Also, where can I find all those informations about beta/alpha/scrapped abitlites from Warcraft 3?
Thanks in advance!

Oh, it's stuff you get by searching the 'net; it's all over. One of the best resources, I have found, is the Scrolls of Lore website; they've got a nifty forum, but an even more nifty collection of images, magazine scraps, & stuff from Alpha/Beta times.

There's a pack of Beta Warcraft models that have been uploaded, as well. Google it on Wc3c.net. Finally, you can comb through the MPQ's & find all sorts of stuff that didn't make it into the game; that can kinda be considered 'alpha/beta' stuff.

cleavinghammer

Name-wise, Shack of X and Coastal Mill seem very off to me.

I agree; "Shack" is a good word, but not for a multi-tier Town Hall (except maybe the first tier).

Different towers shouldn't look the same, a human player needs to be able to tell them apart at a glance. Maybe put a special effect using whichever murloc type they're garisonned with?

The tower has "Upgrade" animations with different murlocs that stand on the platform and attack enemy units in range. So, they're always visible.

@Hermit, this is actually quite a salient point. I know you have this cool 'garrison' plan, like the RA2 IFV, but you've got to make sure it's really obvious from a distance. It's a thing in games I call "the Silhouette Principle"; in order for players to really come to grips, aesthetically, with a game, the important game elements (if not everything) has to be extremely recognizable, even from a distance, and even if distanced from all normal visual cues (color, shade, details, etc). Basically, the silhouette needs to be distinct. TF2 absolutely rocks this principle; look it up. Warcraft does a great job too; even from a distance (which, technically is the whole game), it's easy to tell what unit is what... And that's essential for proper game-play. If two units looked/moved just alike (say, oh I dunno, Horde-aligned Jungle "Troll Headhunters" and Troll-aligned Jungle Troll "Hunters", well... You're gonna have a bad time.)

So anyway, lesson is: make sure it's super-obvious (silhouette-wise) what each tower looks like. Ala the Human tower-scheme.

Concerning duplicate spells: It's not a necessity for each spell to be unique. Look at the Naga, who have Ensnare, Abolish Magic and Cyclone but have enough original spells to feel like their own race. So the Net ability doesn't have to be replaced if you can't find an original way to bring down an air unit, Cannibalize is a perfectly good spell name, etc.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I very much disagree. In actuality, the Naga don't have a single original spell, aside from "Parasite" on the Sirens. I guess you could count "Spiked Shell" on the Dragon Turtle, though it's just half of the Crypt Lord's "Spiked Carapace" (but to be fair, it fits my earlier definition of "technically unique", so sure). That, and the racial "Submerge". But the Snap Dragon's "Slow Poison", the Myrmidon's "Ensnare", the Coautl's "Abolish Magic", the Siren's "Frost Armor" & "Cyclone", the Dragon Turtle's "Devour" & "Hardened Skin"... All are just repeats. And that's fine... For a campaign race, a little 'gimme' race that the player never fully gets to explore. Heck, it wasn't even fully explored; just half-made with one hero.

I love Naga, full disclosure. Just not where I turn to look for archetypal tech-tree patterns.

Spells: Yes, but at some point there's no getting around that some aspects offer little to no room for improvement. Try looking through Ujimasa Hojo's altered melee maps for inspiration, all he does is switch spells and units around and give them new icons, and yet it's enough to make very remarkable maps.

Some... But I think you'd be surprised. I think we can both agree that without some method to fix Buff Stacking, there isn't enough 'creative space' for more than one custom faction (maaaaybe two). But by replacing things, or enabling Buff Stacking... Definitely room enough.

I have not yet played Ujimasa's maps; really ought to. Regardless, I'm not here to judge the quality of his work; I suspect, however, if you were to ask him, he'd say that coming up with custom abilities really isn't something he wants to focus/spend time on. Shuffling abilities around is a very useful thing; done right it can really still provide a 'wow-factor', while simultaneously ensuring the game knows what to do with all your custom stuff. (In fact, Heart of Storms did essentially this (for the longest time had a "No triggers!" mandate for their mod; since it was a Total Conversion, though, they were able to get away with), with every normal, in-game ability modified & placed on a different unit.)

Unfortunately, for us "5th-race-addition" guys, that's not so true. :<

Anti-caster: If the others have a capable combat unit as their anti-caster, you should probably make a new one.

Faerie Dragon = 'capable combat unit'? And what about Orcs? (see above).

I can't really see the Naga coming up with a siege weapon that wouldn't work underwater.

That's a really good point, and raises a host of issues.

Really, if we get down to deconstructing it, what's any underwater race (murloc, mur'gul, naga, etc) doing with ranged weapons? Just about any ballistics you can imagine are essentially useless underwater; thrown javelins & fired bullets just have too much resistance on them. Same with slashing, cutting weapons (knives/swords/etc). That's part of why (I believe) you always see tridents & spears, stuff that can be stabbed into people; while the water slows everything down, you are better able to control & deal damage with that kind of force/shape.

It could thus be argued that the Murlocs shouldn't have any ranged expertise. But I'm afraid that might not fit Warcraft very well, no matter what you try to balance it with.

So, then, what are some Siege Weapons endemic to the deep oceans? (by the way it's Murloc, not Naga, that we are working on).

As for the turtle, maybe it chews up dead bodies into fishbait the murlocs can eat, restoring HP all around?

Ooh, like chum for a shark, made of ground up fish-bits? That's... Actually rather inventive & cool. I can see this happening. Before, I had the same skepticism as Hermit, but now...

I always thought negative auras was a problem with ranged heroes being extremely ineffective.

That's an interesting theory. I'll have to make a topic for discussion about this...

Nowow

2. I think that the taming thing and the reef dragon sort of cancel each other out as flying units who can attack ground. Could be a role change for the reef dragon to aerial siege with low range will solve both this problem and the aforementioned siege unit problem.

I'm not sure I see the problem. Nearly every air unit has a multi-modal attack (both air & ground), aside from a few key exceptions (Hippogryph, Chimaera, Gyrocopter pre-Upgrade, Batrider sans-Unstable Concoction...). Making a specialized air unit would be a chosen uniqueness, not an expected pattern.

as a support melee which will heal allied units with corpses (like @Kyrbi0 and his mcgyver contest entry, only based on raise skeletons.

Aww. <3. Be careful, though; Raise Skeletons & other spells like it actually cannot be (reliably?) cast on a chosen corpse; they just find the closest one. If that doesn't bug you, then more power to ya; but if you wanted a "chosen corpse churns into chum, healing nearby dudes", you're probably outta luck without triggers.

Which, arguably, wouldn't be too hard. But still.

4. The siege caster idea is really interesting. I have very little experience in messing with the object editor but hasn't anyone tried buffing/debuffing buildings?

It should work (how many times have I said that?...). "Siege Caster" is an idea I'm excited to try out in my Forsaken race.

We'll, yes. Technically humans have three units which can attack air and ground once you research gyro bombs. But each of them has a specific role derived from its abilities. The gyro is a scout anti-air, the gryphon is a 3rd tier ultimate with relatively high cost &damage, and the dragonhawk is a spellcasting all-rounder (aerial shackles=AA, cloud=siege).

I don't think anyone's arguing that they don't have specific Roles/Functions. That's the point; every unit should. But their Role doesn't stop the majority of them (see above) from being multi-modal in attack.

I'd agree with your descriptions of Alliance aerial unit Functions (Gyrocopter (technically Flying Machine but I much prefer the old RoC name), Gryphon Rider, Dragonhawk Rider). I always saw "Aerial Shackles" as really more of an "anti-capitol ship" ability (it's much more useful against Frost Wyrms than Gargoyles, for example), and "Cloud" as the (aforementioned) TFT-sired 'anti-Turtling ability', since it really just disabled ranged building attacks (i.e. doesn't deal damage or anything).

If not a siege unit, then I like the idea of an aerial support unit. That's something no vanilla race truly has. Also, you could give him the healing ability your race needs (I'm very much for giving the healing ability to someone other than casters for the sake of uniqueness).

(Aside from me considering the Dragonhawk Rider a sort of 'aerial (caster) support'...)
Totally, man. This such a solid idea; like a flying Kodo Beast or Obsidian Statue. I had that very thing lined up for the Greed-cartel of my Goblin mini-races, a sort of "Ad Blimp" borrowed from Handclaw as an aerial buffing dirigible. Man.

Introducing: Reef dragon! A support flying unit with relatively low attack power and mid-low HP armor, with the following abilities:
Fear from above: the reef dragon terrifies it's foes, lowering their attack damage by a small percentage (reverse kodo war drums ability).
Soothing bile: the reef dragon spews a soothing bile which heals allied units in a small circle (healing sprey).

You already know I'm a fan of the base concept, and kudos for a moving presentation. Aside from some small concerns ("Fear From Above" being an offensive aura, & "Soothing Bile" being identical to Healing Spray (some mods & it should be fine as a "technically unique" unit-version, though)), I think that's a solid way to go.

With all due respect, I disagree. I can think of very few minor reasons not to use offensive auras.

Such as?

As to the reef dragon, consider this: you have have a tamed Drake (basically hyppo rider), what would make you use a reef dragon? Is it much stronger? It's not an ultimate unit, so it must not be that much stronger/more expansive. Is it a sort of reversal on mountain giant/chimera (this could actually be good)? But even the mountain giant has several abilities. My point is, I have no problem with the reef dragon having a tower ability, but it should have another thing. Also, if it's like a hyppo rider it'll be pretty strong and costly on it's own (at least the actual hyppo is), so if you want to make the reef dragon stronger but not the ultimate that gives a very tight space to maneuver in.

Good analysis.

(I'm sorry for bombarding with ideas XD)

Never stop, man. You're exactly the kind of guy I would have loved to have on my old design discussion topics. (and still haven't responded to on that one "Jungle Troll Tier 3" discussion topic... Working on it?)

Lowering a building's armor is a very slippery slope. Almost always, buildings will have 5 armor. Lowering from that will reduce the armor percentage a lot (vanilla OoC will turn it to 0, that's way too much). So, if you give the reef dragon an OoC with low effect duration and low attack, it'll become invaluable in sieges, but only with other units to dish the actual damage. Pair that with a rather high survivability and another support ability, and you've got yourself an aerial tank. In sieges the enemy just wouldn't be able to ignore them. But again, this could be broken very easily if stats are done wrong.

Sure sure, but this is exactly the way the Frost Wyrm/Batrider (and to a lesser extent, Dragonhawk Rider) work; a primary attack(ability) that effectively disables the tower, but that doesn't deal a lot of damage by itself, i.e. can't solo towers/expansions. They have to be used in conjunction with other siege units or a big attack.

So like I was saying earlier, OoC is pretty much perfect for that. The issues you are talking about sound to me like just a game of numbers; 5 is too much? OK, try 4. Now 3. Now 2. It's just balance, which is primarily solved through play-testing, so let's write it down & move on.

Scias

Yeah but it wouldn't be channeling, casts on target location, and doesn't do damage to buildings. Sea Witch's ability to me sounds like Stampede/Earthquake/Tornado/Death and Decay type of spell. This can be a unit ability, so the unit with this ability would be like orc Raider/nightelf Dryad type of unit that helps you chase down enemies.

Ah, that makes more sense.

I believe there was a item in standard game called "Monster Lure" which would lure monsters from target area to the caster, it worked only on creeps though and would lure monsters in area of effect - I don't think the item was ever used but this shows that Blizzard has originally thought of a similar ability, and had implemented it in the game. The ability I have in mind is inspired by this item, and it's basically the same thing except it would work on both creeps and player units and would target a single unit instead of area of effect.

I see where you're coming from, and might have agreed with you out of hand a while ago. In fact, I am using the Monster Lure (straight out, no mods) as one of my racial Items purchased at my Jungle Troll 'racial shop'; I figure 'hey it's a ward, and it draws fresh meat to them in the form of creeps; seems reasonable & kinda wacky & probably sorta useless, like the Alliance's "robo-creep" or whatever'
I also do much the same thing by taking ideas from Wc3 Alpha/Beta, stuff they already did or said they would do, figuring "hey, if they thought of it for this game once before, why not stick it in now?". However, I've realized one very simple thing that has given me pause: they took it out for a reason. Now, I don't know that reason; could've just been laziness, or that it was too hard to make working in their current system, or it didn't go over as well as they'd hoped; in which case, sure, let me try to make it happen. But what if they took it out because it was simply imbalanced? What if it really breaks the flow of the game, or doesn't mesh well with any other ability/unit, or is impossible to balance? In that case, maybe it's gone for a good reason... And I should probably do something else.

Bottom line is, I now tread with a little more caution when it comes to straight-up yoinking old Beta/Alpha ideas (and that includes "stuff that's put into the MPQs but not used in the end").

(Also like Hermit said, it's not actually moving the units, just ordering them to come at their own speed. Subtle difference.)

I was thinking one of the low tier units, so splitting the unit wouldn't make it over powered, I guess it can be Coastrunner's ability. It can be balanced by making it weaker than the regular units of the same tier. I think it would be harder to balance it for stronger units, but it could work if you give it a long cooldown or make the units split into 2 slightly weaker versions.

Definitely second this. I don't know about cooldowns, but splitting, say, a 2-headed Hydra into two 1-headed Hydralings ('hydralisk'? xD) makes plenty of sense/totally balanceable IMO.

WHEW. Alright... Now onto the ideas. And techtree. Or instead, maybe I should work on the hard stuff first; like my dissertation on macrophysical spatial constructs.

 

[Scias]

Kyrbi0

I see where you're coming from, and might have agreed with you out of hand a while ago. In fact, I am using the Monster Lure (straight out, no mods) as one of my racial Items purchased at my Jungle Troll 'racial shop'; I figure 'hey it's a ward, and it draws fresh meat to them in the form of creeps; seems reasonable & kinda wacky & probably sorta useless, like the Alliance's "robo-creep" or whatever'
I also do much the same thing by taking ideas from Wc3 Alpha/Beta, stuff they already did or said they would do, figuring "hey, if they thought of it for this game once before, why not stick it in now?". However, I've realized one very simple thing that has given me pause: they took it out for a reason. Now, I don't know that reason; could've just been laziness, or that it was too hard to make working in their current system, or it didn't go over as well as they'd hoped; in which case, sure, let me try to make it happen. But what if they took it out because it was simply imbalanced? What if it really breaks the flow of the game, or doesn't mesh well with any other ability/unit, or is impossible to balance? In that case, maybe it's gone for a good reason... And I should probably do something else.

Bottom line is, I now tread with a little more caution when it comes to straight-up yoinking old Beta/Alpha ideas (and that includes "stuff that's put into the MPQs but not used in the end").

(Also like Hermit said, it's not actually moving the units, just ordering them to come at their own speed. Subtle difference.)

I think they didn't use monster lure since it's such a useless item, and if I remember correctly it was really difficult to use, like sometimes it would attract multiple creep camps and you'd end up just wasting your money. I guess it would take practice to learn to use it correctly, so you'd pull only the creeps that you want to pull (you'd have to figure out the size of it's aoe), but it's all for little reward. Creep pulling is much easier and comes with no extra costs with any ranged units that every race has.
However, I see no problem with making it a single target ability that would effect both creeps and enemy units. The dragging doesn't necessarily have to be shown as dragging (even though that would probably make it fit the standard game more), but it could work like monster lure - forcing the unit to walk to the caster. Could make it target heroes too, and balance it by making it last only 2~4 seconds on heroes, so the hero would make it to the caster only in case that he is already really close.

Btw Kyrbi0 mentioning the robo-creep item gave me some item ideas for murlocs.

Fresh Fish - Instantly restores x(low) amount of hit points of a target friendly unit. - This would be like murloc version of healing salve/regeneration scroll, could possibly give you more charges than healing salve and have a cooldown for balance.

Frog Scout - Summons a frog critter. - Basically like robo-creep, however you could give frog scout the Fission ability, allowing it to multiply. This would work kinda like zergs spreading creep on the map. Could work against you in match vs Undead if the frogs leave a corpse after being killed.

 

[GhostThruster]

wow there's enough words on these 4 pages to form a novel. i'm not sure if i should be congratulatory or embarassed

since i'm late to the discussion, and don't have the time to catch-up on everything, i might just give my 0.02 on what you've currently got in the OP.

• 'form mangonel' is not an impossible idea to work with, but it will look stupid. how does murloc 1 + murloc 2 = a machine? (not to mention the practical side; it'll be tough to show the cost of the mangonel in an intuitive manner, seeing as very few abilities display a resource cost) a more aesthetically logical idea is to have your 11th building be the mangonel. with some clever object editor work you are able to build units.
  
• the mangonel could have a 'load slave' as its 'X' ability, giving it a bonus from faster attack rate to faster movement speed to HP regen. i know you've found a pattern for all mechanical siege units to have a passive, but it's just that - a pattern. which leads me to a larger point, since i read in an earlier post about 'negative auras' being bad coz they're different: only fear change if there is a good reason to.
• i don't like your scavenger drake taming. i'm assuming the coastrunner is a unit akin to a ghoul. it's a melee unit. unless its weapon can be thrown or it's got some magical abilities, how does putting it on a melee air unit give the hybrid a ranged attack? it's also a clone of hippogryphs, as you admit yourself. i'd scrap it, i'm sure you (or someone else ITT) can think of something better.
• i don't know the food cost of the huntsman (btw, you should mention the food cost so we get a rough idea of each units' power), but it's a bad idea giving ensnare to a 2-food unit, that much is true. know your roles as well; there's a reason you don't see much DPS combined with a disable. the closest you get is the crypt fiend, but it only has web for purely anti-air purposes.
• define a role for the flesheater (to borrow @Kyrbi0's terminology). you've got a T1 melee unit (coastrunner) and a T3 one too (hydra- i'll get to this one later), so how and why is the flesheater a heavy melee unit? i once designed a similar unit for a naga race, maybe you can borrow some ideas off of it (see bottom of this post)
• depending on stats and armour type, spell immunity on a siege unit may not be a good idea. magic/heavy air is one of the major 'natural' counters to siege units, and removing this weakness doesn't leave many other weaknesses.
  
• scavenger drake is kinda boring right now. there's a myriad of ways to differentiate it from a hippogryph. something as simple as making it only attack air units with a ranged attack could change how it's played. now the way it's used would be different enough from hippos, as you're able to (and, if you design it to be a glass cannon, have to) kite with it. also opens up potential for unique abilities, from a simple slow poison to something cold arrow-esque.
• booo, anti-tower heavy flying unit is boring! wouldn't it be cool if the hydra had this capability instead? imagine an instant-cast cloud ability on the hydra (so it's a spell channeled in a similar way to tranquility/starfall etc., except it disables tower attacks in a radius around the hydra). what's cool about this? it's on a heavy ground unit, and we've never seen that before. it also synergises with the 'tankiness' & 'separation capability' aspect of the hydra; send them to the front line right next to enemy towers, and best case they survive and disable nearby towers, worst case they spawn extra minions for you!
• shallow grave is definitely a cool idea! i think maybe increase its duration to at least 30 seconds though; 10 seconds is far too short for a 220 mana spell that is effect-less unless the target dies. losing 220 mana for nothing is high risk, it deserves a high reward. with 30 seconds duration, this spell at least has potential to be as effective as polymorph or possession.
• for "Cleanse Magic", bouncing 8 times for 75 mana is overkill. i would say 4 times is enough.
• "Mind Rot" is bad. you're essentially trading 50 mana for 150. the only thing in game strong enough to do that is a level 5 demon hunter, and you want to give this capability to a spellcaster that can be trained en-masse. short of dispelling in time, there is no counterplay potential unlike abilities such as siphon mana or mana flare (you can move out of range of both, as well as take advantage of the channeling caster). you should just remove this ability, and make "Cleanse Magic" the ability the tidecaller gets at adept. there's also a reason blizzard set almost all dispel abilities to require an upgrade (think dispel magic, disenchant, abolish) - otherwise anti-summon spells would be too strong.
• so "Adrenaline Rush" is bloodlust, but worse? and/or it functions exactly the same way unholy frenzy does. an adrenaline rush doesn't exactly fit the theme of a 'tidecaller' either.
• now depending on the stats and armour type of the hydra, giving it 'Aerial Acid' could be very poor balancing. again, as with the spell immune turtle, don't let a unit cover too many bases. one of the only weaknesses of a t3 heavy unit is air, and giving it a means to counter air is not a great idea.
• call "separation capability" something more succinct? "Hatchlings", "Spawnlings", "Unborn Hatchlings" anything as long as it doesn't get longer and less intuitive like "Auto-physiological Post-mortem Childbirth"

these next 3 ideas are for the seacultist, and somewhat revamp your current version of him. nevertheless, you can take all, part, or none of these ideas:

• "Wither" is effectively the same spell as curse. maybe to spin a new dynamic, make it relatively cheap to cast and weak at first, but have its potency increase over time. again, something never seen before. and you can synergise this with the following idea...
• "Diffuse Magic" another ability for the the seacultist; removes all buffs from target unit, and drains X mana per buff removed if the target is an enemy. Deals to summoned units X damage per buff removed. gives the seacultist an anti-magic role, combos nicely with 'Wither' and ...
• "Watery Shell" (consider another name, as hotkeys are a thing and 'wither' starts with W already); think lightning shield, but instead of damaging foes proximate to the target, it slows them down. also adds huge armour to the target. allow this to be cast on both allies and enemies (though the AoE 'slowing' affects enemies only).
• hopefully you see the attempt to allow an alternative usage of the seacultist; rather than using the debuffs for their effects, we can also combo them with Diffuse Magic to function as a sort of mana burn. the fact that "Wither" is low cost and scales with time means enemies are less inclined to quickly dispel it, giving yourself an opportunity to combo it with a Diffuse Magic.

this was the unit i designed for a naga race, akin to your flesheater:
Mur'gul Infector; melee support unit, effective at disrupting enemy ranks. 3 food. Normal Attack/Unarmored.

• Has Ensnare & Infection (inflicts enemy attack targets with an infection, dealing damage over time for X seconds. Should a unit die with an infection, it will spawn a lesser watery minion - basically a passive parasite)
• couple of things i did here that you didn't do with the flesheater. i gave this guy abilities that flesh out its role - an annoying unit that weakens and disables enemies. i made sure it wouldn't overlap with other melee units via its armour type, which makes it vulnerable to ranged units unlike other units. your unit doesn't really have a distinctive (or necessary) role, and it seems like an abomination rehash.

 

[cleavinghammer]

^^^ Regarding underwater ranged weapons: Javelins probably won't work underwater, true, but they still work when wet unlike guns and bows (yes, yes, the Sea Witch has one, but that's probably because of Clash of the Titan's Medusa).

As for siege weapons, it doesn't necessarily have to be mechanical. Maybe a sea elemental that hurls water, a hydra that spits acid...

 

[Murlocologist]

There should be more rush and slow contrast, more mindless aggressive rushing mounted turtles and more taunting heroes. Logic is easy, you swarm your enemy with loads of weak but fast basic units that are supported with heavy ranged crazy turtles that will take these minions and catapult them straight onto enemy unit group causing damage and slow effect, bringing flyers down. Ranged medium murlocs behind first row will taunt enemy force, making total mess on battlefield and it will only get worse as murloc ritualists channel swarm stampedo-like illusions of attacking murlocs. Casters will camouflage turtles and ritualists into basic murloc warrior models to make it harder to spot the key targets. In the end hero support, ocean spirits and some anti air buildings rushing mounted turtles to round it all.

 

[MogulKahn]

Hah, maybe in some perfect world, but that is not how strategy games works in general, especially in multiplayer...

 

[Nowow]

Such as?

Someone mentioned it being less effective when ranged units have it, that's one. Another, more subtle issue with giving offensive auras specifically to heroes is that it voids the entire concept of invisibility: enemies affected by the aura know there's a source unit somewhere, but need start spamming revealing powder (the item thingy) or dispels (if that even works on invisible units, I don't remember). But those arguments are not relevant in my idea.

Anyhow, I think it's better to consolidate my point about the murloc flyers in one post:

In the current state, there are 3 flying units: scavenger drake, tamed drake, and reef dragon. The scavenger is a relatively week flyer who can attack only other aerial units, and it can be coupled with a coastrunner - the basic T1 melee unit, to create a flying unit which can attack air and ground units, basically like archer and hyppogryph. Seeing the stats of these units, it is apparent that the hyppogryph rider is neither weak (765HP), nor cheap (total 290 Gold, 30 Lumber for both units). Besides that, there is the reef drake, which is supposed to be stronger than that, and have a tower ability and another ability, yet not be the ultimate unit (hydra). This is a very small margin to maneuver in.

One possibility is to remove that unit, another to make the reef dragon weaker (a real shame with that model), but I think my alternative is better: lower the tamed drakes HP/armor in favor of attack, and turn the reef dragon to the aerial equivalent of a mountain giant. This way, it can also have a large model, it can have an anti-tower ability (like mountain giant tree club ability), and another ability to boot (replacing taunt). It needs some balancing adjustments, sure, but I think this will solve more than one problem for you.

 

[GhostThruster]

Another, more subtle issue with giving offensive auras specifically to heroes is that it voids the entire concept of invisibility:

i'm almost 100% certain invisible heroes have their aura effects turned off. you can see this very clearly with the PotM shadowmelding.

In the current state, there are 3 flying units: scavenger drake, tamed drake, and reef dragon. The scavenger is a relatively week flyer who can attack only other aerial units, and it can be coupled with a coastrunner - the basic T1 melee unit, to create a flying unit which can attack air and ground units, basically like archer and hyppogryph. Seeing the stats of these units, it is apparent that the hyppogryph rider is neither weak (765HP), nor cheap (total 290 Gold, 30 Lumber for both units). Besides that, there is the reef drake, which is supposed to be stronger than that, and have a tower ability and another ability, yet not be the ultimate unit (hydra). This is a very small margin to maneuver in.

One possibility is to remove that unit, another to make the reef dragon weaker (a real shame with that model), but I think my alternative is better: lower the tamed drakes HP/armor in favor of attack, and turn the reef dragon to the aerial equivalent of a mountain giant. This way, it can also have a large model, it can have an anti-tower ability (like mountain giant tree club ability), and another ability to boot (replacing taunt). It needs some balancing adjustments, sure, but I think this will solve more than one problem for you.

i don't want to invalidate your larger argument about the small margin of design maneuverability, but i will point out that the hippo rider is both weak and cheap, especially considering that early on, archers will be sunk costs. their weakness is also evident in the amount of usage they see in high-level play (i.e. incredibly little. possibly the least used night elf unit tied with mountain giants).

 

[Nowow]

i'm almost 100% certain invisible heroes have their aura effects turned off. you can see this very clearly with the PotM shadowmelding.

Really? I tested it by making a paladin with devotion aura invisible via potion and sorceress invisibility. Both times the aura stayed.

don't want to invalidate your larger argument about the small margin of design maneuverability, but i will point out that the hippo rider is both weak and cheap, especially considering that early on, archers will be sunk costs. their weakness is also evident in the amount of usage they see in high-level play (i.e. incredibly little. possibly the least used night elf unit tied with mountain giants).

I can't speak much for melee usability because I don't watch competitive (or very good at the game actually), but night elf in particular have a lot of flyers, so the riders might be less effective than the rest. They might have low damage, but they aren't squishy at all - having more armor then a gryphon rider and close to the same HP (without animal training). Also, again compared to the gryphon rider, their actual cost (Nevermind if you have/don't have archers to spare) is close to it.

 

[cleavinghammer]

I think the invisibility thing is in the Gameplay Constants menu.

 

[GhostThruster]

Really? I tested it by making a paladin with devotion aura invisible via potion and sorceress invisibility. Both times the aura stayed.

i just tested it. either you weren't on latest melee patch, or you were only looking at the paladin. the aura will disappear from other units, but not the invisible paladin.

 

[doom_sheep]

replacement for murloc huntsman ensnare, don't really know what to call it

throws (some kind of projectile) at an enemy up got 300 distance away, dealing (40 + 10 per casts on same target in last 6 seconds) and slowing it by 30% for (1.7 + 0.3 per cast in last 6 seconds), has a cooldown of 15 seconds and 3 charges. huntsmen can replenish charges at a murloc hut.

the slow duration in addition to increasing on successive casts is added to existing slow duration rather than replacing it.

has an upgrade at tier 2 that reduces cooldown to 9 seconds.

^this is meant to be a powerful chasing and kiting spell that encourages aggression with massed huntsmen. in order to balance it, their stats should be low or they should have the unarmored armor type.

replacements for murloc flesheater spells

carnivorize - channel to take 130 hit points from an allied unit in melee range over 5 seconds.

^this is meant to be an anti-focus tool and also spread damage over multiple flesheaters to regenerate effectively

(passive I don't have a name for) - the flesheater regenerates 2 hit points per second if they've attacked an enemy or a neutral creep in the last 20 seconds.

to make use of these the flesheaters should be tough units with high armor.

coastrunner

maybe these should be the unit to have sprint

instead of being needed for the air units, give them this:

clone - the coastrunner becomes enclosed in an egg for 23 seconds, then emerges with an identical twin. half of it's wounds will be healed and the rest spread among both new murlocs. costs the same resources as making a new murloc from barracks.

^provides limited ability to heal and the possibility of quickly doubling an attacking force or creating an army in secret while your normal production is visible to enemy

the wither ability

replace it with a debuff that causes the enemy to have an incrementally slowed attack speed every time it starts an attack

also

all supply buildings actually have an identity and are sometimes harassed. ziggurats become towers and block a lot, moon wells heal, burrows have an attack but are fragile and farms are cheap and sturdy and provide less supply than other variants.

rather than just being clones of burrows which are actually a great weakness for orc, make them also even more fragile, very cheap, and provide a low supply amount. that creates both a unique weakness and an effective counterplay to exploiting it.

also perhaps hiding workers in them could provide something else than the ability to attack. don't have a good idea for what that would be, though.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I'm still working on my replies (got very sick), but I'm probably not alone in wondering where @Hermit has gone to?

 

[Mister_Haudrauf]

Oh i finally found someone else who is insane enough to create a stable infra-structure for a minor race.



Say does @Hermit make the buildings himself like me or is he searching for them?

 

[Kyrbi0]

It's funny; I was just re-reading part of this thread this very morning, and wondering what had happened to it (I'm still working on my responses BTW).

Oh i finally found someone else who is insane enough to create a stable infra-structure for a minor race.

Hey, don't forget about me. ; )

Say does @Hermit make the buildings himself like me or is he searching for them?

AFAIK, he gathers good resources but then does (sometimes extensive) editing himself.

I'm very jealous of his luck/abilities.

 

[N'zoth]

A murloc race to play is entirely and always been a pipedream. Still I have hopes people would join hands to do such a potent race that can fight another race.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Random ability ideas:

For the Flesheater:
* Rabid Bite (Active, melee range): Target takes initial and periodic damage, but moves and attacks faster.

For the Reef Dragon:
* Kaiju's Wrath (Active): While active, grows larger and gains extra health, Resistant Skin and Demolish.

For the Seacultist:
* Water of Life (Active): Creates a sphere of water around a target allied unit. All units close to the target get increased HP regeneration.

For the Sea Witch:
* Animate Water (Channeling): Creates a huge, floating, mobile sphere of water that can then be sacrificed by using an ability (except the last one):
** Healing Rains: Heals all surrounding allied units.
** Water Hammer: The sphere drops, causing AoE stun for all units directly below it.
** Boil: Evaporates the sphere, causing a Cloud effect (on buildings and units) at its location.
** Freeze: Freezes the sphere, dropping it to the ground and doing AoE damage.
** Expand/Shrink: Increases/decreases the sphere's size (bear form), causing its other spells to have less effect (heal/duration/damage) but greater radius.

 

[Kyrbi0]

I vacillate between "desperately wanting to hear back from @Hermit , and being glad he hasn't posted yet because I haven't finished my review, lol

For the Seacultist:
* Water of Life (Active): Creates a sphere of water around a target allied unit. All units close to the target get increased HP regeneration.

For the Sea Witch:
* Animate Water (Chenneling): Creates a huge, floating, mobile sphere of water that can then be sacrificed by using an ability (except the last one):
** Healing Rains: Heals all surrounding allied units.
** Water Hammer: The sphere drops, causing AoE stun for all units directly below it.
** Boil: Evaporates the sphere, causing a Cloud effect (on buildings and units) at its location.
** Freeze: Freezes the sphere, dropping it to the ground and doing AoE damage.
** Expand/Shrink: Increases/decreases the sphere's size (bear form), causing its other spells to have less effect (heal/duration/damage) but greater radius.

These are great, especially the idea of animated water being able to do so much... Quite intriguing.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Hydra: Alternatives to Separation Capacity:
* Hyperactive Metabolism: Hydra has Devour. As long as a unit is being digested, the Hydra has increased health regeneration.
* Cellular Regeneration: Hydra returns from the dead as long as it has mana, with each death removing X% of total mana.
* Better Than One: Hydra gains +X% damage whenever it reaches (1-X%) health, with a cap. Bonus damage wears off after a while. If the hydra obtains the damage buff due to being attacked by allied units, it turns neutral hostile (you cheaters).
* Food to Flesh: Hydra gains an automatically triggered Mana Shield at low health and very fast mana regeneration. Mana Shield is lost after a while.
* Triple Chomp: Target unit has Envenomed Weapons, Slow Poison and Shadow Strike debuffs.
* Traumatic Viviparity: Hydra spawns a Hydra Hatchling on death with 1% HP/mana. If the hatchling reaches full health/mana, it becomes a Hydra.

 

[Saelendious]

Not sure if it has been suggested or not, but you can use custom content from WC3 Way Of Others, a russian mod with murloc campaign and a custom murloc race for single/multiplayer.
I can send you the recources.
With any luck, anyone (maybe even me?) will translate this mod to english for everyone to enjoy.

 

[Kyrbi0]

What kind of resources do they have (is there a complete screenshot list)?

 

[Saelendious]

yea, here you go, screenshot from the campaign and preview for some models, also the links (i hope you ARE able to find a green download button ye?)

Spoiler: cleeck

Юниты морлоков - Way of Others / WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking
Здания морлоков - Way of Others / WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking

there should be enough files you may consider to be useful

 

[cleavinghammer]

Oh, so that's what the mangonel looks like? Now I get why they combine into it.

 

[Kyrbi0]

yea, here you go, screenshot from the campaign and preview for some models, also the links (i hope you ARE able to find a green download button ye?)

Spoiler: cleeck

Юниты морлоков - Way of Others / WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking
Здания морлоков - Way of Others / WarCraft 3 / Модмейкинг - XGM: Xtream Game Modmaking

there should be enough files you may consider to be useful

Very cool, thanks.

Oh, so that's what the mangonel looks like? Now I get why they combine into it.

Yeah, but I still feel the base Murloc worker sound have some kind of wooden pieces (like a backpack), to provide some kind of grounding.

 

[cleavinghammer]

Maybe have the transformation cost lumber.

 

[kellym0]

phewy am I late to this party or what

 

[Banelingline]

phewy am I late to this party or what

...This is thread necromancy, you know? That timer's three months.

 

[kellym0]

yea but I'd never seen the Murloc Gyrocopter before:

that ones new to me as of right now

 

[Kyrbi0]

Has it been 3 months already?... I feel bad, I still got a couple big response posts to write. :U

 

[Rislir]

Is the project still alive?

 

[Hermit]

Just to let you guys know that I'm still alive. Thanks to all of you (especially Kyrbi0 and cleavinghammer) who provided valuable feedback, proposed thoughtful ideas and continued the discussion while I was gone.

I just realized that it's been more than a year and a half since my last real activity here. And this is for more reasons than you might think: I had some personal issues; I've been busy with college stuff; I'm a huge procrastinator (I could probably put things off into my next life). However, the main reason is probably because I experienced a hard disk failure; I had a backup of some things, but I lost many important files, including most of my recent maps and some resources I intended to use. I regret not backing up more things, like a large excel file with a dozen of worksheets in which I had neatly categorized stats of all melee and custom units, heroes, buildings as well as abilities, spells and my general unimplemented ideas and plans.

That kinda made me frustrated and the thought of doing some things all over again put me off this project for some time. But I'm ready to slowly continue working on it, though the work probably won't be continuous and I'm not sure if I'll ever truly finish it.

Not that it matters, but I actually typed a long response (in a txt file), but my hard drive died as I was nearing the end of it.

I don't know if one of the moderators will close this thread for necroposting; if that happens, I'll probably open a new one at some time in the future.

Is the project still alive?

It has been stagnating for an eternity.

I'll try to be active-ish again, but I can’t promise anything.