Melee - Bomb Mode v0.03

[WolfFarkas]

Review:

the idea is indeed unique and interesting,

1-played turtle rock planted the bomb in my base to see how it burned a large amount of wood but didnt kill my units, no damage, nothing.
2-second test, I planted the bomb just there in front enemy townhall and defend it against AI, exploded a lot of wood destroyed, nobody died, no damage.
didnt test the others maps.

I have this feeling.

Time a go, an user developed a very unique and interesting idea called nitro melee, and like you, the user submited his idea in many maps,
Nitro Melee mappack

it was a controvertial submition, because the discusion between quality and quantity emerged. In the end all map reviewers agree after some time in set the map pack as substandard.

I am taking the nitro melee pack as a previus example and say that this submition is similar, one nice idea executed in many maps

I would like to quote Maxwell map as a random example: Sands of Time [v1.9]
in this map , you have to kill creeps to gain sand of time to gain time and dont die when the timer gets 0. also creeps re-spawn. he also did a nice and unique enviroment and creep selection. His map was approved and is a nice altered melee to try. If this user would have executed his idea in many melee maps, probably maybe probably a discusion like the one with the nitro melee pack would have also emerged, and maybe the submition wont be approved.

I would like to copy paste a rule from the map submission rules:

3. Uniqueness
The map must bring something new to the table. It can't just be another clone of X popular map. It must be significantly different from existing maps.
You can't just take DotA, add a few heroes and call it a new map.
Map Submission Rules

IMO, have a good idea, and make copies is the same as make clones, and there is a clear rule against cloning maps. If you have a good altered melee idea, dont make it over and over and over in many maps. 1 time is more than enough. 1 idea 1 altered melee map, for a 2nd altered melee map develop another idea.

I also want to say that the post for map reviewer was offered to me twice and I rejected twice (I dont like to moderate the maps, and I like freedom), but I review maps sometimes, and a map reviewer reads my review and decide the fate of the submition. And many maps have been moderated recently with my reviews, mostly melee , altered melee and one TD.

So I think:
1- the idea should be used in 1-3 maps.
2- moderate/decide if the idea is enough for an altered melee in 1 map,

For the moment as how the submition is presented, I think it can be set to awaiting update
(until only 1-3 maps with the idea is presented to be tested).


good luck and see ya.

 

[Nudl9]

That sounds like a bug and i need a replay in order to fix it.
I just tested it on Synergy and Turtle Rock and it works fine (as seen on screenshots).
I've done several playtests online as well with players without any hitches.

I looked quickly over the Nitro Melee pack, i don't really see why mods why dissaprove of it. It's a mod, on a modding site for warcraft 3. Isn't that the point of the site, like what? Two days ago i even talked with Sexytime (streamer/formerly 4v4 RT #1) and he said he'd like something like a Turbomode that doubles the speed because he thought WC3 was too slow sometimes. Theres obviously a demand for such a mod so i don't see why it should be rejected as substandard. Unless the quality was severely lacking, but it didn't seem that way.

Also lol, compare these two statements, one from Nitro(reviewer) and one from my discord chat with sexytime:

"I looked at what you changed and I'm sorry to say it, but I'm afraid that very few people will actually be interested in playing a faster version of regular Melee. Warcraft III is an RTS which makes it a demanding game by default." -
twojstaryjakcie

"i think that it would be a lot more interesting to play
sped up
most probably wouldnt agree
but wc3 is so slow lol" - chat with sexytime

This isn't to rag on the reviewers, but they can be really out of touch and the treatment that Nitro got wasn't fair at all.


The "unique" rule is a complete joke though. You can't cite this rule if you can't hold up all users to the same standard, which it obviously doesn't. Just look up tree tag. How many versions are there? They all play the same and certainly don't abide by this very rule. If you want to follow this rule you have to remove Ralle's Tree Tag version of the map and hes the site admin.

"the idea should be used in 1 map."
This is a terrible idea. I can explain why. There are several maps because sometimes you don't have 8 players. What if you only have 4 and the map is too big for 4 players? What if you hate FFA and want to play teams? What if you prefer small tight maps? It can't suit everyone's taste. This isn't like Sands of Time which is it's own map and not a mod. Big difference there. This mod is more akin to adding a CTF mode to an FPS game that only has Deathmatch. It changes how you play the game and how you devise new strategies. The things from the strategy portion only covers the bare minimum of what you can do.

 

[WolfFarkas]

First I want to say that it wasnt me that put this map pack to awaiting update,I just review the best I could and a map reviewer read my review and moderated the submition.

"That sounds like a bug and i need a replay in order to fix it.
I just tested it on Synergy and Turtle Rock and it works fine (as seen on screenshots).
I've done several playtests online as well with players without any hitches."
Maybe it was a compatibility problem I tested it in the 1.29, (I have 2 versions installed, the 1.29 and 1.26 to test old maps, and I will try to have also a 1.30 if the patching ends sometime, I think current now is the 1.30.4). I agree that my beta test is not enough to explain the proper funtions of the map.

"That sounds like a bug and I need a replay in order to fix it."
I could provide one but with different versions, replays usually dont work. I just pointed my experience thinking that maybe you copy pasted the triggers but not tested all the maps. it seems is not the case.

"the treatment that Nitro got wasn't fair at all."
I didnt review that map, to me it was fair, 3 map reviewers decided the fate of the map pack, not just 1 wich is usually the common situation in Hiveworkshop moderation.

"Just look up tree tag. How many versions are there?"
I never played tree tag and never reviewed a tree tag map, but I get your point, I would like to take this conversation to a TD or melee map because I can stand with that category.
So I want to change your question to: how many melee maps are, how many TD are?
Here is my point, if someone do the same just the same equal melee layout (neutral buildings in same spots, different tilesets) it will be detected sooner or later probably in the third submition that those maps are copies with different enviroment. I understand that take a melee map, change the tile-set with the editor and submit it is forbidden, you cant do that wiht turtle rock and make it look outland. The rule is there to avoid that kind of submition. You cant also take turtle rock and make many copies with different creeps, so different game play.
Wolfrunner Outpost 1.02 ; Dragonmaw Lands
as random example, this 2 1v1 maps, they are not equal they are not copies, because player starting positions... creeping routes, size, one has
waygates and other not.
Now TD, every TD I played was different, different layout of the creeping routes, diferent tower teching system, different game-play system,
different balance stats, or tower skills. I can take Azure tower defense, Pokemon TD, Elemental Tower TD, Stronhold TD, all those TD gave me different games, even if they have the same mechanichs wich is TD. Some TD are PVP others are PVE, others are boths. Towers can be destroyed in some TD in others not.

"i think that it would be a lot more interesting to play
sped up
most probably wouldnt agree
but wc3 is so slow lol" - chat with sexytime."

Interesting and quality are different concepts, (interesting is a very wide concept) there are many unbalanced melee maps interesting because the enviroment was interesting and fun. but the competitive melee knoledge is used to moderate all melee maps.
Sexytime opinion is just that, an opinion, he/she could stated that any type of map could be interesting:
It could be interesting a map were you start the game already having a lot of units and have to battle until the last unit, well that type of games is called footman wars and there is a specific rule against that.

Resources should be unique. Largely similar resources, such as icons or skins that are hue-adjusted version of each other, simple reskins that don't change the shape of the model, or maps that are effectively clones of each other, such as most LOAP and Footman Wars maps, may be marked as substandard.
General Resource Rules
Footman wars maps are forbidden for only 1 reason, it doesnt require much effort to put a lot of units and say figth till the end. If those maps were allowed the site will be overloaded of millions of that type of maps.


"Theres obviously a demand for such a mod"
there is also a demand of bad food, and still some laws against that are being created and used. A demand to be filled is not a good reason itself IMO. as example there is demand for re-skined maps, same races and skills , differents models, those maps are being set to awaiting update now (because download models and icons and put them in a melee map it doesnt require much knoledge).

"the idea should be used in 1 map."
This is a terrible idea. I can explain why. There are several maps because sometimes you don't have 8 players. What if you only have 4 and the map is too big for 4 players? What if you hate FFA and want to play teams?

When an altered melee map is reviewed, the terraining, and balance of the melee map is not or it should not be taken in account unless is unbalanced. That means I dont judge your map for the numbers of players it has , I dont mind if an altered is a 1v1 or a 8 player, I would review the altered concept the same.

the numbers of players is not important when reviewing, the important is the altered melee dinamic , trigger funtion, and the amount of work that makes the game different from normal melee,

Users that do altered melee maps, and create new races limits themself to 1 map, no matter if is 4 player, 6 player, 8 player from the very start, and they know, that every map should have at least 1 new race. They can have a map with 3 old races but at least a new one should be done.

Wa666r
I take as example wa666r maps, he did 14 altered melee, each map contains a different race, a different gameplay,
He could have done millions of copies (put the same race in every melee map), take the pre-existant races and put them in 1v1 , 2v2 , 6 player and 8 player.
but he didnt, because the rule against clones and copies exist.


"The "unique" rule is a complete joke though."
the rule exist here in Hiveworkshop. Maybe not allways has been used fairly, maybe some copies have been approved sometime, but the rule exists and I try to follow it.

So that why your idea should be limited to 1-3 maps, because with freedom you can have thousands of maps with the same idea over and over, just because the melee map are different,

My sugestion is that you use your idea in a 8 player map and you can with triggers, make the users choose the system 1 bomb, 2 bomb, 3 bomb play or somthing like that, with that you can have different plays in 1 map.

If you want to have many maps with the same bomb idea:
You can fullfill your objetive by uploading your maps in epic war, you wont have any kind of restriction there.


Good luck and see ya.

 

[deepstrasz]

the rule exist here in Hiveworkshop. Maybe not allways has been used fairly, maybe some copies have been approved sometime, but the rule exists and I try to follow it.

It's allowed as long as it's a "mod" and in the same map thread. However, the main issue here is the work itself and quality.

 

[WolfFarkas]

It's allowed as long as it's a "mod" and in the same map thread.

I see, thanks for explain that. Well I think a 1v1, a 4FFA, and a 8 player , that means 3 maps, may be ok, and can fit different tastes but we have already 7 maps and 6 more incoming, 13 in total, and the number of maps used could be unlimited if there is no stop to it.

(4)Synergy: x1 Bomb, spawn in center.
(4)Turtle Rock: x1 Bomb, spawn in center.
(4)Twisted Meadows: x1 Bomb,spawn in center.
(6)Silverpine Forest: x1 Bomb, spawn in center.
(8)Feralas LV: x2 Bomb, spawns in west and east center.
(8)Gold Rush: x1 Bomb, spawn in center, protected by a wall of trees.
(8)Mur'Gul's Oasis: x1 Bomb, spawn in center. Non-LV version.
Maps to be included:


-Lost Temple
-Marketplace
-Gnoll Wood
-Golems in the Mist
-Northsire (Doublebomb)
-Twilight Ruins

However, the main issue here is the work itself and quality.

Of course I agree,

"That sounds like a bug and I need a replay in order to fix it."
I do believe that you tested all your maps, but it seems odd that others maps, like new TD worked on my 1.29 and their triggering is far much more complex.

sorry for not provide proof sooner.

screens

placed a mine just in my base, 8 seconds till explode.

See the HP bars all ok, and the message of a bomb will re-spanw
but it does destroy the wood and the ground looks black of smoke.

 

[Nudl9]

It's a mod, not a map. Why do you keep insisting that it has to be map specific? This is a map pack with the mod in it. So the more maps the merrier, because you can play on the map of your choice. I use fan favourite maps or maps i think suits the mod. I could craft my own maps sure, but that's just a lot of unneccessary work when i can already use existing melee maps that people enjoy, are familiar with and have optimized strategies for. The maps i would make would probably suck anyway since they haven't been rigorously tested as the maps in the current ladder pool (which is what i use btw). So i don't really see why having 100 maps for this mod would be a problem when it's all contained inside one map pack submission. It's one mod that fills 1 map submission slot - which means it's not clogging up the entries. Something other projects like BtT or the multiplayer campaign maps do and which could easily be contained in one entry.

"You can fullfill your objetive by uploading your maps in epic war, you wont have any kind of restriction there."
Haha are you serious? Epicwar is a dump where maps gather dust. Lets not kid around, Hiveworkshop is the only viable alternative if you want to publicize maps.

 

[deepstrasz]

It's a mod, not a map.

Technically, it's maps. A mod means executing external/custom files from the editor and game, placed in the game's folder.

Hiveworkshop is the only viable alternative if you want to publicize maps.

In terms of a Warcraft III site, yes. In terms of advertising your work, it's not the only means for it.

 

[Nudl9]

Well you have reddit now and some russian sites, but thats mostly it.
WC3C and Thehelper is long dead.
Mapmaking clans don't exist anymore.
I guess websites work, but having your work on hive is simply better because more people use it.

 

[WolfFarkas]

It's a mod, not a map. Why do you keep insisting that it has to be map specific?

Technically, it's maps. A mod means executing external/custom files from the editor and game, placed in the game's folder.

yeah like skyrim mods, you just place them in game data, and your normal game is changed.

So I can say that we have here 7 altered melee maps in one thread.

"You can fullfill your objetive by uploading your maps in epic war, you wont have any kind of restriction there."
Haha are you serious? Epicwar is a dump where maps gather dust. Lets not kid around, Hiveworkshop is the only viable alternative if you want to publicize maps.

I say it in a way if you want to skip reviews and moderation, not as a bad thing. I was not being sarcastic in any way.

I guess websites work, but having your work on hive is simply better because more people use it.

I agree, and thats because the Hive sets to substandard tons of maps and approves the good ones, while in epic war they are all there, you cant say wich one is good and wich one is bad.

 

[deepstrasz]

So I can say that we have here 7 altered melee maps in one thread.

You can say whatever you want but I consider it the same "game" with different maps much like you'd play Warcraft III melee on various maps.

 

[WolfFarkas]

You can say whatever you want but I consider it the same "game" with different maps much like you'd play Warcraft III melee on various maps.

hard to be 100% acurate in this one.
@Nudl9

I want to say that it was really hard to me to make a proper review in this thread, so I apology if I was not acurate in any of my statements or I was wrong in the interpretation of the pre-existant rules. While I put effort and even tried to apply the same criteria as Nitro-melee, well maybe I was not acurate, by fortune I am not map reviewer just a normal user with no authority.

Regarding the map quality as proper altered melee review I can say this:

- I like the bomb idea but, I am not very fond of One Hit KO things (RA3, RA2, CCgenerals has superweapons such a nuclear missile that cost 5000 credits, takes like 10 mins to launch, and still if that thing hits you, you survive. I like vulture mines, but this one is like to much maybe.

- Maybe add other elements, other objets, no only bombs. Do you know super Smash, there you had many items, healing ones, aggresive ones like bombs, pokeballs, blasters. Maybe the initial bomb idea can lead to a full custom items play in a epic way.

- Also in terms of quality, I feel, that if you can copy paste the triggers in 13 maps (7 done and 6 comming) maybe there is not that much work as an altered melee. And there are altered melee with a lot of work, but still set to awaiting updates because of the lack of more altered melee elements.

Thats why 1 fully altered melee map is more nice than 7 with the same thing done.
-You could use triggers so players can choose gameplay: 1 bomb, 2 bombs, hard mode, easy mode, pokeball mode, add more altered melee elements.

 

[deepstrasz]

I want to say that it was really hard to me to make a proper review in this thread, so I apology if I was not acurate in any of my statements or I was wrong in the interpretation of the pre-existant rules. While I put effort and even tried to apply the same criteria as Nitro-melee, well maybe I was not acurate, by fortune I am not map reviewer just a normal user with no authority.

You don't have to be dramatic. You can open up a thread in Site Discussion about certain rules that seem vague or should be changed etc.

 

[WolfFarkas]

You don't have to be dramatic. You can open up a thread in Site Discussion about certain rules that seem vague or should be changed etc.

I was not being dramatic, sorry if I gave that impresion, well now you say it, maybe I did in the last part, but it wasnt intentional.

 

[Nudl9]

Bombs are supposed to kill everything in one hit. It makes players concerned and want to maintain bomb control. The games are quicker, escalate faster and it's a great mechanic for less skilled players to have a shot at winning. Arming and detonating a bomb isn't easier either. At best you can get a moonwell, an expansion, some trees or maybe an item from a creep camp - during the first 10 minutes. Since the bomb transmits your position you also give vital info to other players whats happening on the map, leaving yourself vulnerable if you push with the bomb.

Im not adding more elements. It would only detract the focus from the game mode (which is the bomb). The game is already complex enough as it is.

"And there are altered melee with a lot of work"
Not all projects require thousands hours of work.
This is a small project that i made in a couple of hours.
Big projects are a huge waste of time if nobody plays them.

 

[WolfFarkas]

I can tell that, all maps are reviewed much more harder than before. As an example in the past gaps between trees was not even mentioned, now a map can be set to awaiting update only because of that. I recently stated that a melee map could be approved and still it was set to awaiting update. Altered melee also are being reviewed much harder, in the past altered melee with only re-skin models and icons and shuffle the skills was 5/5 stars maps, now they are set to substandard (maybe that sand of time map, would also have a hard time to get the approve now) .

This is a small project that i made in a couple of hours.
- the time invested is somehow considered in all maps reviews.(I talked with a map reviewer recently about this submition, and the amount of time invested for this submition was mentioned)

The game is already complex enough as it is.
- the game is the normal melee play with the adition of 1 new item that re-spawns (technically speaking), as long as users are good melee players they can control the bombs and the game,

and somehow map reviewers seeks that altered melee maps get free of the normal melee play and design new gameplays. At least thats what I see these days in altered melee reviews.

Big projects are a huge waste of time if nobody plays them.
, big proyects well executed had thousands of downloads, that small ones hardly get. The most downloaded melee maps are the 12 player maps, reaching like 12 k, 18k, a 4 player map can get 700 or 1 k in best cases.
the most downloaded maps are campaigns with more than 100k, 1 AOS with 200k, there was an altered with 150 k downloads,

I have the feeling that my explanations are not helping here, and also I dont know what else to say.
(I think it is the second or third time I say this, but just in case, I didnt set this map to awaiting update, I cant do that, I just try to do reviews of maps)

Talked to a map reviewer and told me that it will test/review the submition him-self in the following days (to much maps in the pending zone are delaying the moderation of lots of entries).

Best regards