Reforged Is there a point in making maps anymore?

Are you going to make maps for Reforged?


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With the updated EULA, your map could be halted or taken away at any point by Blizzard and all your work would be for nothing. Since maps must be available for everyone (another EULA point), protecting your map will be bannable, so basically every other user of Reforged could just steal your map and upload their own version.

Not only this, but since WC3 is now tied to battlenet, not complying gets your entire account banned, causing you to lose all the money and time invested in other blizzard games.

I'd love to hear your opinions on this matter, will you keep creating maps despite these handicaps?
 
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protecting your map will be bannable
I keep seeing people say this, but I feel like it's misinterpreting what the EULA says. I think it's supposed to mean that you cannot put whitelists/blacklists in your map, and it has nothing to do with the map being openable or not in the world editor.
 
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handicaps
Make satyre.

Sin nombre refu.png


At least you laugh.
 
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Unless you are making Melee maps, or something which is exclusively WoW-focused, there is absolutely no point.

Anything you create will become the sole property of Blizzard, in perpetuity - this means if you attempt to create your mod/map as a standalone game, Blizzard can sue you for making something you already made because you signed it off to them in this predatory EULA.

Before some wazzock comes along and says "It always said that, hur-hur."
No.
Blizzard owned that version of your map, and could not follow you outside of the game.
Now they can.
Hell, they can terminate your B.net account if they don't like your maps now that WC3 is linked.
So now, even your WoW, Starcraft II, Hearthstone, Overwatch, etc are at risk when you upload something.
 
was there ever really a point?
Of course there was! creating a map for people to play and enjoy while leaving a legacy. Unlike now, with the new eula no one will ever know that you created that map because Blizzard won't even give you credit. And like Numox said, if god forbid you won't be able to protect your map, people can edit it and steal your content. Spending 2000hours creating a map isn't an easy task so it's fair that the map creator wants his name to last through the years.
Imagine if all the maps published on the hive didn't show their creator and the site visitors wouldn't know who's map they downloaded and enjoyed playing. I just hope Blizzard keeps on working on Reforged and updates their eula to meet the standards of the community. Otherwise no one will have the drive and the passion to create great maps.
 
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Also the amount of desyncing is pretty daunting, just maybe that can be alleviated by making maps from scratch?!

Another big issue:
The discrepancy between reforged and classic models when mixed with each other and how to account for the player to choose what you as the mapmaker want them to?
Since, i think the new terrain/doodads/cliffs look pretty good, but am in dire need of many of the old custom models - looks like a strange mix together (not sure how to solve this).

+ new shadows are too taxing, even on low setting. Hence why most players turn them off completely. But then it looks too dull (we need pre-rendered blob shadows back!!!).
 
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I had been working on a map for a few months before reforged and I completely lost my drive to do anything further after that. It was basically done too I just feel now like it's a waste of time, especially since I think wc3 might be on the edge of a total collapse. Rewriting the EULA to something acceptable could potentially change the future of wc3 but considering them doing it like this in the first place shows just how little they care so we probably shouldn't expect too much.
I wonder if it's possible to sue Blizzard when uploading a map containing copyrighted material? Since the map creator have no legal right to anything that is uploaded he would also have no responsibility, right? This would mean that they would have to get every uploaded map checked before it is publically available. I'm not sure it works like this though.
 
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I've steeled myself to the possibility of Wc3 finally seeing the Reaper by reminding myself that great games like Mount and blade Bannerlords will be coming along soon. Plenty of great games out there with Leadership that are themselves current or former gamers and understand what fans want out of games. Awesome fun content cool ideas good story telling etc instead of loot crates cash grabs and broken releases. Wc3 is great because the community is great and has worked their asses off to make this game 100x more than it was originally intended to be, and im sure it will be around as long as the community keeps breathing life into it, but man ATVI is really doing a number on their franchises.
 

pyf

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I wonder if it's possible to sue Blizzard when uploading a map containing copyrighted material? Since the map creator have no legal right to anything that is uploaded he would also have no responsibility, right? This would mean that they would have to get every uploaded map checked before it is publically available. I'm not sure it works like this though.

Short answer: You will get your ass kicked in court 100%.
 
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As a guy that's modding for fun I don't see where the problem is with the new EULA rules...
ofc if your map doesn't contain anything that violates the rules you don't have to be worry
e.g "nudity" , "ripped models from other games"

anybody knows what happens when they take down your map? what's keeping you from hosting it again? o_O
 
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Guys.... come on. making a map should only be about fun.
Back in my days, even DotA guys were not expecting to monetize it when they first made the map (and DotA-like were legions !!!)

Making a map should only be about sharing fun moments with people to enjoy the game.

I believe the EULA has not changed that much with Reforged, I suppose loosing their trial against DotA authors hit them badly, but to be honest, they can only own their own contents, they cannot own your ideas, whatever their EULA says. If there was another DotA case, they probably still wouldn't win the case, unless the people would want to exploit ideas strictly related to Blizzard content.

Anyway, I don't get discouraged by these kind of typical modern humanity low blows, I made my map for reforged, it is working great, I am having a lot of fun beta testing it on Bnet these days.

Don't loose hope, keep making maps for pleasure, not to earn a living !
 
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Guys.... come on. making a map should only be about fun.
Back in my days, even DotA guys were not expecting to monetize it when they first made the map (and DotA-like were legions !!!)

Making a map should only be about sharing fun moments with people to enjoy the game.

I believe the EULA has not changed that much with Reforged, I suppose loosing their trial against DotA authors hit them badly, but to be honest, they can only own their own contents, they cannot own your ideas, whatever their EULA says. If there was another DotA case, they probably still wouldn't win the case, unless the people would want to exploit ideas strictly related to Blizzard content.

Anyway, I don't get discouraged by these kind of typical modern humanity low blows, I made my map for reforged, it is working great, I am having a lot of fun beta testing it on Bnet these days.

Don't loose hope, keep making maps for pleasure, not to earn a living !
Yeah, I keep making maps for fun. In patch 1.30, or 1.27. Reforged can suck it. This is not about monetizing those maps. That was never the intent, indeed. This is about using the optimal game version. Which is not Reforged. And, also, this is about not supporting anti-consumer practices.
 
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Yes Reforged is bugged.
Yes Activision behave like corporate bxxxxs. Honestly, I am french, and I historically know that everything Vivendi touches becomes wasted over time.

The whole problem is economical. You can't expect to live in modern capitalist countries and not have any of these disgusting corporate attitudes. There are two faces of the gaming world. The fans, the gamers who love the game for real, and besides that you have corporations and their greedy shareholders. How do you expect both to understand each other ?

Anyways as far as I am concerned, I consider myself too insignificant to win a fight versus Vivendi (yes thats them pulling all the strings) so I cope with what I can get.

And although there are many disappointing faces, overall it still is better than nothing.

I mean come on my map was something very complex to make, and yet it runs smoothly in reforged, no crashes, no desync. Ok so maybe with these new models a little bit less performance.

But in the end... why should I cry ?
 
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Yes Reforged is bugged.
Yes Activision behave like corporate bxxxxs. Honestly, I am french, and I historically know that everything Vivendi touches becomes wasted over time.

The whole problem is economical. You can't expect to live in modern capitalist countries and not have any of these disgusting corporate attitudes. There are two faces of the gaming world. The fans, the gamers who love the game for real, and besides that you have corporations and their greedy shareholders. How do you expect both to understand each other ?

Anyways as far as I am concerned, I consider myself too insignificant to win a fight versus Vivendi (yes thats them pulling all the strings) so I cope with what I can get.

And although there are many disappointing faces, overall it still is better than nothing.

I mean come on my map was something very complex to make, and yet it runs smoothly in reforged, no crashes, no desync. Ok so maybe with these new models a little bit less performance.

But in the end... why should I cry ?
Companies can and did survive quite well without scamming their customers, without lying. There are still companies today making actually good games. There are also plenty of indie devs out there. You make it sound as if players have no choice. But we do. The mere fact, that we can just download older Warcraft 3 patches, play them and host our own online games, proves it. And thus, I don't care about any of the AAA companies. EA, Bethesda, Blizzard. They can all fall to oblivion with their terribly bugged releases, microtransactions, and other nonsense.

Maybe that would be for the best, as well. "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become a villain". A fitting phrase. Maybe it's time for smaller indie companies to take over. People that actually have passion for making games.
 
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Unfortunately, all I see growing around me, year after year, is lame corporate greed.
Back in the good old days, people were creating companies for 2 reasons : first earn a living, and then participate to the community by creating activity and employment.

I am afraid we have reached a point of no return with how far we pushed capitalism, because nowadays all companies that i witness the creation of have only been made for money.

Money is not the devil though, except when it becomes a religion and prevails on everything else humanity has to offer.

Mmm sorry I am not sure all this is proper english, I hope it is because It is not my mother tongue.

But anyways, you are right, there are still companies out there with ethics, but I fear this is slowly becoming an exception. With all my heart I would be happy if I was wrong.
 
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But anyways, you are right, there are still companies out there with ethics, but I fear this is slowly becoming an exception. With all my heart I would be happy if I was wrong.
At least when it comes to games. As I said before, no need to worry. Alternatives are always there. Indie devs, modding communities, etc. Hell, get into making games yourself. Unity and Unreal Engine are there to ease it up. I think it's a bad thing, that so many gamers cling to these AAA companies, as if they were the only choice. That is why these companies get away with acting this way.

Stop clinging. If something does not satisfy you, look for alternative. Plenty of them out there. Just because Blizz force-updated people to Reforged and closed bnet 1.0, does not mean we cannot play old Wc3. We can still get older patches. Also, there's Game Ranger, there's Garena, there's Netease. Check out Warcraft 3 Unforged discord as well.

You don't need Reforged, or Battlenet, unless you want them. In that case, you do you.
 
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I see what you mean.
I mean I still play Black Desert Online on Gamez private servers because I was fed up with Kakao Games greed.
This said, there are things I actually like with reforged version of the game. Would be nice to have an active community using both clients as a choice.
 
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I'm making maps for reforged, it's a fun pass time, nostalgic thing I did as a kid + a bunch of new models. The assets, playerbase, general ease of use and networking etc make it a much faster/easy way of making games for a hobbyist like me who will probably never go on to making a full on indie game, let alone a commercially viable game. I've tried using unity but it's very clunky and requires a huge amount of work for very little payoff - especially for networked stuff.

The point in making maps is, for many people, for fun.

Tho I whole heartedly sympathise with people like Herr Dave where Blizzard is essentially threatening to steal from and exploit them, I only hope they can get a crew together to jump to a different engine asap, like unity.
 

deepstrasz

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It is indeed greed, but that is systematically encouraged by capitalism. Greed is selected for in the market. Less greedy companies are out competed or outright bought out by more greedy companies. It's absolutely capitalism.
I don't feel encouraged to have a bigger salary than other of my colleagues especially by any means necessary.
Also, I don't feel encouraged to have more than everyone else.
All that, living in a capitalist country.
 
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I don't feel encouraged to have a bigger salary than other of my colleagues especially by any means necessary.
Also, I don't feel encouraged to have more than everyone else.
All that, living in a capitalist country.

We're talking about companies though, where worth is measured in how good of an investment it is, that is capitalism, bad investment = bad company = dead company. How you act as an individual is kinda irrelevant.

We have both seen this is a systematic problem, there is a tendency for companies end up like this, there is a material reason why it is so, just asking people in a company to be a bit nicer isn't gonna work.

Best case scenario is you get some value based companies which get out competed or bought out, worse case scenario is they rationalise a bad thing as a good thing "sure it's a shitty game but its better than nothing right?" "sure we polluted a stream but without us they wouldnt even have jobs!" "we're a company with values"
 

deepstrasz

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How you act as an individual is kinda irrelevant.
No it is not. If they have the money to make games and then get the necessary income to pay their staff and make more games, then there's no need for greed. But they don't just want to work in the gaming industry, they want to be on top and if possibly be the only industry.
"sure we polluted a stream but without us they wouldnt even have jobs!"
Two wrongs make a right - Wikipedia
People today live for themselves. Many would not like hearing or considering this but it has to do with atheism to an extent because if you don't have the big imaginary to fear, then you don't fear the law either which gives you the false liberty of acting superior over others of your kind.
You should see, for how fanatic Muslims might be, they live better, especially on the peace of mind level. I'm not saying we should start cutting hands if one steals or whip people who did wrongs (even if sometimes they deserve it), I'm saying much of the Western world is based on vague laws in favour of rich people, who don't rarely mean you the least good intentions.
 

loktar

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I don't feel encouraged to have a bigger salary than other of my colleagues especially by any means necessary.
Also, I don't feel encouraged to have more than everyone else.
All that, living in a capitalist country.
Sure, but you're selling your labor to a company which is operating within a capitalist system. You aren't directly involved in it yourself, except as a consumer. Labor is just another resource.
Workers aren't incentivized to infinitely grow by minimizing costs, maximizing returns and absorbing or out-competing the market competition (i.e. capitalize).
Private companies are, however. That's how the system works.

The bigger a company's market share, the less risk is involved, so cutting corners and increasing "efficiency" is the most beneficial thing to do.
The divide between the shareholders and the employees becomes bigger, the socio-economical and environmental impact becomes more abstract, and the products or services are more and more "optimized" and "diversified" to further increase market share and increase profits.

no need for greed.
Maybe not, but the most profitable companies grow the most and thus have the biggest market share and the most visibility through marketing and thus become even more profitable etc. Eventually all commercial entities either fail, are absorbed into a conglomerate, or remain obscure and have very limited impact.
 
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Two wrongs make a right - Wikipedia
People today live for themselves. Many would not like hearing or considering this but it has to do with atheism to an extent because if you don't have the big imaginary to fear, then you don't fear the law either which gives you the false liberty of acting superior over others of your kind.
You should see, for how fanatic Muslims might be, they live better, especially on the peace of mind level. I'm not saying we should start cutting hands if one steals or whip people who did wrongs (even if sometimes they deserve it), I'm saying much of the Western world is based on vague laws in favour of rich people, who don't rarely mean you the least good intentions.

I think I agree with what you're saying about the lack of values, personally I'd frame this as capitalism tending toward a limit where everyone and everything is a commodity - I think we need to value humans and more than just efficiency/profit/money, where the justification for this value comes from is perhaps the real question.

I think it's incorrect to place the blame on atheism alone (obviously played it's part regarding community), it was after all Protestantism which helped pave the way for capitalist hegemony over our culture (The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism). It's hard to get people to leave their rural lives of subsistence and community for the aliening toil in a factory, but throw in protestant work ethic "this work will make you a better person" and people will put up with it. Now a couple centuries later life has totally transformed, sense of community is gone as workers move constantly for better jobs and we sooner associate food with a supermarket aisle than a farm.

As a structural observation it might be worth looking at where power comes from to see what enforces values. In the past values were enforced by religion, when religion had the power to enforce it. Now we need to look at new forms of power. In the early 20th century labour held power when they demanded the New Deal in the US, labour demanded and enforced certain values. I worry that capital currently has all the power and that we're unlikely to see capital upholding values which will be much value for average people.

Definitely getting way off of topic now so I'ma stop, hopefully a worthwhile distraction from the topic though.

As a question to help us get back on topic:
If someone makes a map in the old editor before the EULA change/a 3rd party editor then sends that map to a friend and the friend puts it on the new battlenet or gets it working "without the original creators permission" - could blizzard legally claim ownership of that map? could Herr Dave use a similar loophole to avoid giving away his Wrath of the Kaiser?
 

deepstrasz

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Workers aren't incentivized to infinitely grow by minimizing costs, maximizing returns and absorbing or out-competing the market competition (i.e. capitalize).
There's competition everywhere. We're living in a meritocracy but that doesn't mean you should not do things properly.
If you're in luck that people buy your stuff more than from others, good for you, but then exploiting this to things like the failure that Reforged is and a whole lot else, is a totally different hing.
The bigger a company's market share, the less risk is involved, so cutting corners and increasing "efficiency" is the most beneficial thing to do.
There's always a threshold that should not be crossed. The risk then becomes duping your customers.
Maybe not, but the most profitable companies grow the most and thus have the biggest market share and the most visibility through marketing and thus become even more profitable etc. Eventually all commercial entities either fail, are absorbed into a conglomerate, or remain obscure and have very limited impact.
Guess, this is what happens when you grow and don't want to let go.
it was after all Protestantism which helped pave the way for capitalist hegemony over our culture
If anything, the reforms and whatnot that lead to atheism in a manner or other through Enlightenment and whatnot lead to the industry and socialism-communism. Capitalism was pretty much a thing of the royalty in a way.
No system is perfect that's why a capito-socialist one would work better than just capitalism or socialism. There is no true capitalism nowadays. It's a mix with more towards a side than another, true.
but throw in protestant work ethic "this work will make you a better person" and people will put up with it.
That sounds pretty much Arbeit macht frei and goes towards communism as well. The worker class is key for socialism.
As a structural observation it might be worth looking at where power comes from to see what enforces values. In the past values were enforced by religion, when religion had the power to enforce it. Now we need to look at new forms of power.
Religion wasn't a power itself during the Middle Ages and early Ancient times since the king or emperor was the most important person. Religion had an influence but it couldn't do everything. Maybe some exception is seen with the Vatican up until a point. All in all, religion, well, priests were advocating education as the nobles were busy with military training and extravagant stuff among uglier others while the working force were the peasants who were basically mostly slaves compared to their masters.
I worry that capital currently has all the power and that we're unlikely to see capital upholding values which will be much value for average people.
The USA is imperialist, at least on a contemporary substrate, meaning, power to the power.
If someone makes a map in the old editor before the EULA change/a 3rd party editor then sends that map to a friend and the friend puts it on the new battlenet or gets it working "without the original creators permission" - could blizzard legally claim ownership of that map? could Herr Dave use a similar loophole to avoid giving away his Wrath of the Kaiser?
I think it works retroactively. Since you cannot be a copyright holder, anyone who saves the map with the newer editor versions and uploads or just uploads basically send the original author to the gallows.
 

loktar

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There's competition everywhere. We're living in a meritocracy but that doesn't mean you should not do things properly.
If you're in luck that people buy your stuff more than from others, good for you, but then exploiting this to things like the failure that Reforged is and a whole lot else, is a totally different hing.
Yes, definitely, but the nature of that competition is very different.

There's always a threshold that should not be crossed. The risk then becomes duping your customers.
That's a moral/ethical consideration though. There is no incentive for private companies to apply any moral thought to their decisions, except PR and personal morals of the decision makers. Unsurprisingly, the more distance between the ramifications of a decision and the one making the decision, the less that's taken into consideration. Especially when there are clear, personal benefits to not consider it.

As a structural observation it might be worth looking at where power comes from to see what enforces values. In the past values were enforced by religion, when religion had the power to enforce it. Now we need to look at new forms of power. In the early 20th century labour held power when they demanded the New Deal in the US, labour demanded and enforced certain values. I worry that capital currently has all the power and that we're unlikely to see capital upholding values which will be much value for average people.
I don't really agree with this. Religion has always been used by those already in power as a tool to control the masses. With the decline of aristocratic power and the rise of private wealth and later the industrial revolution, the role of religion declined too.
In the early 20th century, power was firmly in the hands of industrialists on the one hand, and colonial nations on the other, propagating a strict work ethic. As a result, labourers started demanding rights and freedoms, and liberal and secular values became more dominant.
 

deepstrasz

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That's a moral/ethical consideration though. There is no incentive for private companies to apply any moral though to their decisions, except PR and personal morals of the decision makers. Unsurprisingly, the more distance between the ramifications of a decision and the one making the decision, the less that's taken into consideration. Especially when there are clear, personal benefits to not consider it.
It's what I'm saying. You can't just expect to do stuff only for your own benefit and get away with it.
Imagine if the US would have thrown out more than two nukes so that they'd have more effects of the bomb to study after and whatnot. It just doesn't work that way. Morality is a must in every affair.
 
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I don't really agree with this. Religion has always been used by those already in power as a tool to control the masses. With the decline of aristocratic power and the rise of private wealth and later the industrial revolution, the role of religion declined too.
In the early 20th century, power was firmly in the hands of industrialists on the one hand, and colonial nations on the other, propagating a strict work ethic. As a result, labourers started demanding rights and freedoms, and liberal and secular values became more dominant.

Yeah I think that was fairly poor on my part, it's been gnawing at me a bit, I'm not proud of that messaging in that post truth be told. I had typed out a longer version but long posts aren't very convincing from my experience.

I was trying to convey that religion is no longer capable of pushing change or values onto people (for good or bad) - The rich and powerful at one time used to use religion as a justification for their power via divine right and that's no longer the case; and I think I'm mixing that up with power, by the people and for the people, of the type we saw from left wing revolutions (ie the power embodied by the revolutionary potential of the proletariat)

For the last part, regarding the labourers demanding and being able to gain rights and freedoms, I believe that was the case in the 1800s and early 1900s but I think it's no longer the case. The lumpen proletariat was a class without class consciousness, I fear that as the reserve army of labour grows bigger, as neoliberal ideology divides people to act as individuals, jobs become more precarious and unions become a shadow of their former selves: the proletarian class shrinks along with the power it could wield, I think we all become part of a modern lumpen proletariat. I have doubts about labour's power going forward.

Would you wanna discuss this in Dms? I don't wanna distract the main topic further
 

loktar

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^Fair enough. You're right, we've been derailing this thread quite a bit xD I think I'll just leave it at this last post here.

You can't just expect to do stuff only for your own benefit and get away with it.
Clearly you can. Blizzard got away with Reforged. And that's a ridiculously silly and innocuous example compared to the abuses and outright crimes committed by private companies since the days of the East India Trading Company, and long before by kings, emperors, and so on.
 

deepstrasz

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I think I'm mixing that up with power, by the people and for the people, of the type we saw from left wing revolutions (ie the power embodied by the revolutionary potential of the proletariat)
Problem is that was not for the people as seen afterwards how totalitarian it ended.
Every revolution has interests, some force behind that will attain the power or something out of that movement unbeknownst to the majority being manipulated.
The "workers" took hold over the power and they being mostly uneducated, wrought havoc amongst the intellectuals, many of these last ones mentioned ending up in jails or being shut down. I am not saying there were no intellectuals but there were only those committed to the movement and none else to think and act freely. Liberalism is good but as mostly if not everything, there's a limit that should not be crossed.
Clearly you can. Blizzard got away with Reforged. And that's a ridiculously silly and innocuous example compared to the abuses and outright crimes committed by private companies since the days of the East India Trading Company, and long before by kings, emperors, and so on.
Of course. I'm saying, morally and lawfully, you shouldn't be able to but money and influence are above the law and only the masses are to abide.
 
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Maybe not, but the most profitable companies grow the most and thus have the biggest market share and the most visibility through marketing and thus become even more profitable etc. Eventually all commercial entities either fail, are absorbed into a conglomerate, or remain obscure and have very limited impact.
Not necessarily. There are numerous small cafes and restaurants in smaller towns, for example, that are surviving just fine, and getting enough profit to satisfy owners. They are not expanding, yes, but they usually have a very strong bond with their customers.

Same way, there are certain indie game devs, that may be rather small, but treat their audience well, and thus, have great relationship with them. Frictional games (SOMA, Amnesia), Taleworlds (Mount and Blade) come to mind. And larger companies - CD Project Red. Rockstar games, From software. Which brings me to next point...

There is no incentive for private companies to apply any moral thought to their decisions, except PR and personal morals of the decision makers.
The companies I mentioned above. What do they have in common? They are respected by their audience. Some even claim these companies never made a bad game. Why? Because they actually make good products, that are consumer-friendly.

And that's the point. While a company does not have to apply morals to their decisions, doing so will improve their relationship with their customers. And that is vital for video game companies. Because people will trust them. People will advertise these companies themselves. And people will be more forgiving, giving these companies more freedom and room to tweak their projects, while still retaining a devoted fanbase. And this may very well keep the company going well, in the long run, even when the bigger and greedier ones go down.

As game companies gain controversy over mistreatment of their customers, ever-increasing number of those customers stop buying/using their products, refund, or straight boycott them. And in these times, you can bet those people are not staying silent. At the same time, companies with good reputation attract customers.

Private companies are, however. That's how the system works.
It's not that this is how the system works. It's that this is how some companies choose to operate. Never settling down, always trying to get all the money, instead of being fine with what they have and maybe focusing on something else... Such as actually satisfying their customers.
 

loktar

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Of course there are small companies/businesses that don't operate like giant corporations (and individually have an insignificant share in comparison), but I was talking specifically about large businesses:
me said:
The bigger a company's market share, the less risk is involved, so cutting corners and increasing "efficiency" is the most beneficial thing to do.
The divide between the shareholders and the employees becomes bigger, the socio-economical and environmental impact becomes more abstract, and the products or services are more and more "optimized" and "diversified" to further increase market share and increase profits.

It's that this is how some companies choose to operate.
I mean you can argue about nurture vs nature and free will all day long, but at the end of the day a capitalist/corporate structure incentivises businesses to... capitalize... and it's unavoidable that at least some people will take it as far as they can, and eventually this adds up, leads to growth and centralization, etc.

Anyway, I'm not replying on this topic in this thread after this post, this time I'm serial :x
 

pyf

pyf

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Unfortunately, all I see growing around me, year after year, is lame corporate greed.
Back in the good old days, people were creating companies for 2 reasons : first earn a living, and then participate to the community by creating activity and employment. [...]
@Macadamia: ... yeah, sure... Companies like... Infogrames Entertainment, right?
:xxd:
 
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What ? Do they still exist ? Last time I heard they bought Atari just to steal the name. I have no idea what happened to them since.

No I was serious, I really meant friends I know starting their own companies. When I ask them why they did it, the answer is always the same : a pile of banknotes waved at my nose...
 

pyf

pyf

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Infogrames indeed became Atari SA in 2009. But ever since its foundation in 1983, Infogrames has never been that nice and friendly a company overall (despite its CEO being a very open and charismatic businessman afaik). People who have done some real business with them know. That was my point.
 
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Yeah and we all know truth is CEO does not matter anymore. Only shareholders do. I was a novice in the matter years ago, until I started working for a friend who was a British businessman, as an assistant. As such I attended all his business meetings with fellow shareholders, and there were quite a few considering how many companies he used to own.

Honestly the only times human concerns were raised within a few years of meeting after meeting, they were by my boss. He was one of these old times business men, tough in business but still caring for other humans. None of the other shareholders i met cared about anything else but how to find ways to shrink the labor cost, cut down "useless" security investments and .... oh you know what I mean. I was shocked, because it was not a movie. I think I never recovered, and I only keep hate left for these kind of individuals.
 
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