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Reforged Inconsistencies in Classic WC3 that you want to see fixed in Reforged?

Discussion in 'Patch & Reforged Discussion' started by Ardenaso, Nov 24, 2019.

  1. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    copy-pasted straight from this post on the battlenet forums

    I decided to make a separate post where we can pool our discovered inconsistencies to be fixed. Since they want the Quel’thalas invasion to be fleshed out, might as well fix everything that was inconsistent right in front of us.

    Here’s what I found and compiled so far:

    • Remove Darkspears in Blackrock and Roll and Blackrock and Roll Too [1]
    • Replace Ogres with Nerubians or whatever decent Northrend creeps in Dissension
    • Replace Far Seers with WC2 Death Knights in Blackrock and Roll Too [2]
    • Replace Dwarf units with High Elf units in The Siege of Dalaran and Under the Burning Sky [3]
    • Replace the Mountain King with a Paladin in the Gilnean Brigade in Cry of the Warsong
    • Replace the Heretics with more fitting creeps like Satyrs or evil Highborne in The Oracle (Thanks, Venombite!)
    • Replace Mystics with Druids of the Talon in Brothers in Blood [4]
    • Replace Shamans with Warlocks/Necrolytes in Tomb of Sargeras
    • Replace Furbolg Experiment with a different creep in The Dungeons of Dalaran [8]
    • Change Jailor Kassan’s model in The Dungeons of Dalaran [6]
    • Replace Red Dragons with Nether Dragons in Gates of the Abyss
    • Replace fel Kodo Beasts with something like Shadow Council Necrolytes in Gates of the Abyss and Lord of Outland [5]
    • Change the elves to their High Elf versions in King Arthas
    • Remove Dwarven units in Dreadlord’s Fall [7]
    • Change Sorceresses in To Tame a a Land into their High Elf versions
    • Redo Darkspear Trolls’ voicelines, or maybe just the birth sound
    For Reforged:
    • Remove that Kodo Beast in the Departures official screenshot
    • Remove the skull in dead Gul'dan doodad
    [1] The Darkspears have got NOTHING to do with Blackrock Clan, better replace them with something like Orc Spearthrowers

    [2] Far Seers in Blackrock Clan is a huge contradiction. The clan’s demonic connections and fel use should have made the elements and spirits abandon the clan members already.

    [3] Not even Wildhammer Shamans have got anything to do with Dalaran, because Shamanism is quite far from Arcane. Much more with Dwarf Riflemen, Steam Tanks, or even Gnomish Gyrocopters, Better replace them with High Elf Archers, Ballistae, and Dragonhawk Riders.

    Edit: or let’s say Dalaran is the last standing Alliance bastion in WC3, then the enemy team should be themed with Alliance forces like Lordaeron Refugees, Aerie Peak Reinforcements, Alliance Loyalist High Elves, and the main Kirin Tor body; kinda makes sense since if you’re going to unleash literal doom on the planet, might as well face the all-out combined might of the Alliance

    [4] I don’t know what Mystics are but if they are arcane mages, then they are contradicting to the Night Elves’ ban on arcane, much more even to the Wardens, since they (Maiev, particularly) hate the Highborne so much. But their spells are apparently shamanistic (Purge and unusable Bloodlust) so it may be somewhat “a little bit druidic”. But still…

    [5] There is LITERALLY NO REASON for fel Kodos to be in Outland, there can’t be some Warsong orc to smuggle some fel Kodos back inside the Dark Portal. Better change them into something fel-orcish like Necrolytes.

    [6] I’m pretty sure that Bandit model in Classic was just a placeholder, come on he’s a prominent member of the Kirin Tor, at least give him some decent formal Battlemage Captain armor, maybe a Captain variant but with Eye of Dalaran as the tabard?
    [7] The Dwarves are supposed to be on a “picnic” on that time, and then it doesn’t even make more sense for them to have Gryphon Riders but players can’t get them on the next chapter.

    [8] Again, no reason for a Furbolg to end up in Dalaran before Archimonde destroyed it (I don’t think some Alliance Expeditions would bring home some Furbolgs either, that would greatly insult the Night Elves), change it to something like Troll or Orc, which further reinforces the Alliances’ hatred for the Second War Horde

    I’d like to see more what inconsistencies you found.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  2. Venombite

    Venombite

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    There were Hydras in both pre Outland Draenor and Outland. Hydra
    They weren't at the picnic at that point. They went on a picnic before Garithos forces started the siege of the Capital, after they moved to the Capital, which was weeks or months after Dreadlord’s Fall.
    The Mystics are leftovers from Assasin Hero, that was meant to be part of the Night Elf race, but was cut. They are about stealth and assassination, a rogue unit. They have nothing to do with the arcane. Druids would make far less sense, cause they should have been sleeping for milenia, having just awoken.


    If I may add.
    • Replace Night Elf allied Dark Trolls in Twilight of the Gods, with Wildkin, night elf allies.
    • Sylvanas having Crypt Fiend and Necromancers, and even Obsidian Statues or Meat Wagons in The Dark Lady, Dreadlord's Fall and A New Power in Lordaeron doesn't make much sense.
     
  3. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    in yellow
     
  4. Venombite

    Venombite

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    No, it's a different city. Iirc Sylvanas says to Garithos/Verimathras that they have to march on the Capital. i belive it's also obviouse from the map's layout.
    First of all night elven druids(Malfurion, Druids of the Talon, Druids of the Claw) have a pact with the Green Dragonflight so they have to police the emerald dream, cause the green dragonflight is all but extinct at that point. So they are required to sleep for centuries, waking up only every now and then. That's why there are no Night Elven druids among the Watchers. Cenarion children, Keepers of the Grove and Dryads, do not have such a pact, and they can enter and leave the dream whenever they want. Yes, they are closely connected with the Dream, yes their powers are the same as the druids, yes they are close allies of the night elves, yes they are very powerful, Cenarius being second only to Ysera in druidism, but they don't have to sleep for centuries and can leave the Dream whenever they want. That's why many of them have been aiding the Sentinels and Watchers for millenia, while not being an actual part of those organisations.
    Second, i thought you were talking about Warden units. I completely forgot about the humans in that dungeon. They are definitely an inconsistency that needs to be changes(although they are a secret "you are not meant to" find). I belive The Oracle has a few inconsistencies like those as well.
    I think that a unique model for Jailor Kassan has been datamined already.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  5. stein123

    stein123

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    • Better to replace them with forest trolls, since some forest trolls tribes are still allied with the dark horde.
    • Maybe use some other type of high tier bandit? since they already looks like vrykyul.
    • I really doubt LemonSky will make a WC2 DK model, maybe they can replace the far seer for an the orc necrolyte or warlock model?
    • Kassan's model is fine, he's a jailor, and looks kinda ok.
    • Maybe change the kodos for Draenei's salamanders? or mybe just change their name, since the already looks like corrupted DS.
    • Agree about the Wildkins, but i don't see a problem with Dark Trolls either, they're not Legion agents like the Satyrs or corrupted like the giant spiders nor the furbolgs, so they can just join for the sake of survival.
    • I really doubt LemonSky will make new models for a full Dalaran or Forsaken factions roster.
    I'm really curious to see the biggest inconsistency, wich will be the broken islands :s
     
  6. Venombite

    Venombite

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    I believe that the Tomb of Sargeras will be one of the eight chapters that will be redone (reterainned at least).
    About new models, sadly, you're right.
     
  7. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Only visually in WcIII. As for lore, maybe WoW.
    Sure but that way, we can have anything on Azeroth on Draenor and the other way around since there are dire wolves on Draenor too.
    Also, they're named differently: doom beast. They should change the model or at least make a demonic type of hydra.
    All of them, even those of the Talon?
    I guess we need units with Heal? If any of the trolls in that map has that. Also, Ensnare.
    Sure but you realize the gameplay mechanics change with that? They'd just have to replace those with other models, basically and well, some spell changes.
    However, what would you suggest? For instance why none of those. We should also bring arguments. Why no Meat Wagons? They're regular undead siege weapons.

    Also @Ardenaso link the other two B.net forums you've made in the main post here.

    @loktar tried doing similar corrections:
    Reign of Chaos: loktar's edits

    About Dark Trolls being mortal enemies of Night Elves, I don't know. It's a WoW thing though and Twilight of the Gods is about the planet not about petty differences. Trolls didn't side with demons.
    What? WoW again or WotA?
    So what, that means they should go wild? If they are needed there, they should be in the dream. Also, why didn't someone like Furion develop the ability to also travel whenever from dreaming to being awake and vice versa?
    Anyways, I agree that some druidic aspect had to be at least from time to time to keep an eye on Illidan. Also, it looks like druids are higher in rank than wardens and maybe priestesses of the moon?
     
  8. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    today I just realized Hive also have those drag to quote like the official forums

    I guess The Dark Lady = Deathknell, and Dreadlord's Fall = Brill?

    Yeah I was talking about the Reforged model, it looks so out of place

    I guess Califax will have to be retconned

    The Heretics/Fallen Priests? I'm going to assume they will be retconned into some evil Shen'dralar Higborne

    Oh yeah I forgot

    It's probably gonna be like those Blood Elf chapters. But the Meat Wagon should stay I think. Probably change Crypt Fiends into Zombie Archers, Tol'vir Statues into Zombie Assassins, Necromancers into Zombie Mages, and Frost Wyrms into Bat Riders

    They'll probably remove the library and the "boughs of Aszhara", and they'll insert some stupid WoW thing like the Moose Tauren. They may even go as far as putting some "Hey, the Vault of the Wardens and the Dream Grove are just there, we should ask them for help!". By Allah, I wish Legion and BFA never happened...
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  9. Venombite

    Venombite

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    Yes, have you played The Druids Arise (RoC Night Elf Campaign, chapter 4).
    Why carry corpses, if you can't raise them? To feed the Ghouls, can't they just eat the ones they kill?
    Actually no, Dark Trolls have been cut from WoW :p.
    Actually, both :p, and "Day of the Dragon"(came before even RoC)
    Of course they'll be in the Dream when needed. it's just that they don't have to stay there. In Wc3 it's clear that the Sentinels are the highest. malfurion may suggest, but Tyrande is clearly the leader, and Malfurion can agree with her or disagree, but he has to accept her descission. Night Elves are a reference to feminism in Wc3. This is the thing that WoW changed, actually.
    Or it oculd have been any other city, Silverpine Forest maybe? All three were in a different city, that much is certain, and all three were her targets.
    No, he is their ally, and the most powerful, that's why he leads them.
    Yeah.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  10. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    eek it was a mistake, I meant The Dark Lady = Vandermar/Deathknell
     
  11. stein123

    stein123

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    Yeah, i don't see a problem with Califax either, a Keeper of the Grove helping watch over the enemies of Kalimdor kinda makes sense.
    About the heretics, if i recall, their models were already datamined, and still looks like modified acolytes, without long ears :s
     
  12. Cheezeman

    Cheezeman

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    This is the nerdiest thread I've ever seen. I love it <3
     
  13. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Troll bat riders xD?
    What's with the zombie spam, lol? I prefer skeletons by the way.
    Tol what? :D WoW again.
    You have to understand these maps were designed with the game's melee in mind so we should find proper replacements. The statues heal and restore mana for instance.
    or 90% of WoW :D maybe even all.
    Yeah, but I only remembered the Druids of the Claw being problematic.
    I mean can't Sylvanas at least possess some necromancers if the "lady" can't get some on the (soon to be) Forsaken's side?
    I don't understand. Dark Trolls are mentioned there that they are the precursor of night elves. No?
    Really? I need the source. Don't remember it was mentioned.
    Actually, no, not really. Everybody has a role. Tyrande is just the highest of the Sentinels.
    tyrande.png

    As for Furion, he's like the messiah
    furion.png

    Nope. Night elven society was not an amazon type one. It was more of a sort of communist one, where women had equal chances with men as implied in those screenshots. The fact that females had to remain as the main protectors of Kalimdor is because males were mostly druids and had to keep their end of the bargain with Ysera.
    EDIT: when I say communist, I don't mean labour party and all that xD, I mean, equality and equity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  14. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    The thing is, they were not supposed to be there. They were supposed to be something that isn't human.

    yes

    I prefer to say zombie instead of F*rs*k*n. Skeletons could work too.

    Apparently, it's the official species name of those sphinx thingies

    They'll find another way around it. Maybe that skeleton/zombie mage could have it without being a priest.

    to be fair I didn't mind until WoD other than the fact that they should've gender-locked night elven male druids and female non-druids; but screw WoD, screw Legion, screw BFA
     
  15. stein123

    stein123

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    Maybe place some satyr casters there instead?
     
  16. Venombite

    Venombite

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    No, they were meant to appear in vanilla, but got cut. Cata too. The first time they were even mentioned past Wc3 was in WoW Chronicles Volume 1 (few months before Legion), as night elf predisessors. After that they haven't been mentioned, untill BfA says that they've all been killed. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Speaker_Ik'nal
    All of them were sleeping, and thus unable to be part of the Watchers.
     
  17. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    Lol, really? They were not present in Vanilla? Wtf xD?

    They aren't even mentioned in the WcIII manual.

    Also want to link @Ardenaso's other thread B.net Campaign/Unique models that are yet to appear

    By the way in the chapter where you save Illidan, there are goblin explosives in the Barrow Deeps :D
     
  18. Venombite

    Venombite

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    Another minor inconsisteny, kinda, WoW created.

    • There are no dragons defending Nordrassil in Twilight of the Gods. Nordrassil was a creation of the red, green and bronze dragonflight, all of them being allies of the Night Elves. Even the blue dragonflight, not an ally of the Night Elves, has a brood with a task to protect Nordrassil. They sould be there, at least the allied dragonflights as mercenaries or something. Yes they are powerful, but also really expensive in every way, so I don't thik it would be unbalanced.
     
  19. deepstrasz

    deepstrasz

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    I guess, they scrapped the idea since Tharifas should have made an appearance.
    Yes, indeed, even if we consider external material around the Demon Soul and whatnot, the main dragon aspects would have still been there to defend the tree. I wonder when the manual story was actually created, before or after Twilight of the Gods :D
    Not to mention the seeds were planted in a fel/chaos corrupted lake.
     
  20. Ardenaso

    Ardenaso

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    Not even Chimaeras, and come to think of it they were never introduced in RoC. In TFT, they weren't even introduced properly in The Ruins of Dalaran.