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How would Warcraft 3 be saved?

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Everybody knows what happened with Warcraft 3 with Reforged and the comunity is not in its better moment, and thats sad, because the now in Warcraft 3 are more possible things than before, is not like Minecraft that still alive and the people continue to take advantage of the new things it introduces.
So if Blizzard for some reason decides save Warcraft 3 (which I see unlikely, but suppose) what should it do?
 
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Unfortunately, some issues will likely happen when Diablo 2 Resurrected (and Diablo 4) got live.
By far, system requirements are my mortal enemy. If Blizzard drops older OS support for all games (like Windows 7 or Windows 8.1), people will no longer play Warcraft 3 anymore.
This is still rumor, but for Reforged, they still maintain Direct3D 11 support rather than Direct3D 12 due to the performance issue.
 
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Unfortunately, some issues will likely happen when Diablo 2 Resurrected (and Diablo 4) got live.
By far, system requirements are my mortal enemy. If Blizzard drops older OS support for all games (like Windows 7 or Windows 8.1), people will no longer play Warcraft 3 anymore.
This is still rumor, but for Reforged, they still maintain Direct3D 11 support rather than Direct3D 12 due to the performance issue.
You put too much stock in this 'no longer support older OS' thing.
 
Warcraft III cannot be saved. The original program code was written in 3 months or so back in the 2000s, based on a render engine from the Warcraft Legacy, Role-Playing Strategy (RPS) game engine that eventually split off to become WoW.

That original engine cut a lot of corners in design because it was only intended to be a 3D way to play an advanced form of Warcraft 2, but with new races. Try playing the oldest public release of Reign of Chaos, and specifically its map editor, and then you will understand what I mean. The original unit editor does not allow the map developer to change fundamental aspects of the units, such as their soundset or whether they have attacks. It was a limited unit stat editor similar to how you could tweak how much damage units do in Warcraft 2.

Everything done in Warcraft 3 modding since then and everything added in The Frozen Throne was more or less hacked into the existing system. At the same time, modern high-paid software developers are often trained to focus more on how they do their job than to focus on what they do. Generally the reason for this is because of how many software projects have suffered over the past several decades from problems due to multiple authors and unreadable code. It has been a very real problem for many people, so having the society of trained software developers look for what is "right" or "wrong" in how code is written is often a high-value way to train people. We encourage them to build software that could be read and understood by someone else, even if we suddenly had to switch out who was writing the code.

In this way, "how" we do something becomes more important than "what" we do unless people are really, really careful about it.

For a number of years I learned to think like this, and it was more than a little bit difficult when I found myself working under a new mamager who cared more about what I did, and whether I did it, than how "well" I did it from some abstract design perspective. I haven't fully decided which design philosophy is correct for my personal hobbies ("how" versus "what") but I find that the manager who cares more about "what" we do than "how" we do it is in a position to be able to pay me more. And I had not originally expected that. The allure of wanting to make good code, or perfect code, has been very real for me at times.

So that's mostly personal anecdote but I want now to get back to what Warcraft 3 is. It is this 3d RTS game with shortsighted hacks added in The Frozen Throne to expand what kinds of mods were possible.

During the development of Reforged, thinkers and people who understood the gameplay of Warcraft III, but not the technology, had some big ideas about what they wanted this game to become. And those ideas are all technologies that could exist within the laws of nature and how computers work, but they were not a 3D version of Warcraft 2 from the year 2002. They were something more.

Obviously this presents a huge problem or conflict between management and technologists.
For technologists who believe that the "how" is important, the only way to make the Warcraft 3 technology be what the people and managers wish that it was would be to reinvent the technology many times over until we achieved a more perfect design. Also, because the Starcraft 2 design is almost a decade ahead of Warcraft 3 in terms of this "design" side -- and that same Starcraft 2 system has been used inside Blizzard for other projects such as Heroes of the Storm -- it is only natural that any skilled developer who has worked around other parts of the company at Blizzard Entertainment and then turns and looks at the Warcraft 3 technology is going to feel a sort of pain. For him to do that, he must forgo the benefits of decades of engine design that was done on the engine shared between Starcraft 2 and Heroes of the Storm.

Someone put in this position as a technologist would end up absolutely resenting working on Warcraft 3 engine, because it is all designed wrong inside. It is something designed in a hurry. It is something that, when they look at it, they don't just think they can create a better engine than Warcraft 3, they know they can create a better engine than Warcraft 3. And as people who worked with Starcraft 2 and Heroes of the Storm, they literally have experience with that "better" engine. I mean, they have personal experiences and know that they are objectively right about this, that Warcraft 3 is bad. And I am not an insider when I say this, I am just guessing based on my experiences modding these games as a player/user and also based on my experiences from getting my degree in Computer Science and working for a few years as a software developer.

But this problem is something that becomes a very, very deep problem. At some point, any sane software engineer in this position would revolt against his managers and go and build Warcraft 3 on the Starcraft 2 engine to prove how much easier and better it was. Again these are all just my personal theories, but why did Blizzard publish a Starcraft 2 patch that included all Warcraft 3 content as an extra mod shortly after Reforged launched? It was not done as a part of Reforged. I firmly believe that Reforged does not run on the Starcraft 2 engine. It is very plausible that that mod released for Starcraft 2 was made by a developer to prove to himself that Warcraft 3 was as bad as he thought it was, and that modding on that Starcraft 2 engine was objectively easier. And he probably found out that he was right about his conclusion, and probably believes that he made the world a better place by offering a way for modders to mod Warcraft 3 more easily than anything Reforged has to offer or will ever have to offer.

And this is why you cannot save Warcraft 3. Because to reinvent it to be what people think they want it to be, instead of what it is, would be an incredible technology effort and it would not feel very rewarding for the technologists undertaking the project, because they are likely to come from other parts of the company where this work "was already done."

It gets worse. Even if you create Warcraft 3 on the Starcraft 2 engine, as some insider at Blizzard did, people would probably not use it. People do not make their choices based on intimate knowledge of the technology. (They do not have that knowledge!) So, someone who wants to make a Warcraft 3 custom game is not going to open the "Starcraft 2" editor. This is not the first idea to cross his mind. Not because he is right or wrong, but because of society and the way technology is named.

Furthermore, if Blizzard were to make the reinvented Warcraft 3 -- let us say "the Reforged engine people can imagine they wish they wanted to have" -- this engine would not support the existing Warcraft 3 custom maps, which are all unilaterally "bad" technology IF YOU CARE ABOUT "HOW" IT IS MADE AND NOT "WHAT" IT ACHIEVES. Almost every single Warcraft 3 map with more than a little bit of customization crossed the line and used stupid technologies, such as:
  • "Dummy units" to "cast a spell" to achieve a desired outcome, because programming that outcome directly is not supported in the retarded-limited engine
  • "Dummy units" or "dummy effects" to imitate missiles
  • "Damage detection" systems that use a 9999% damage reduction armor ability added to any unit hit by an attack to cancel the incoming damage, reprocess it, and then possibly repeat it
  • "Index allocators" to pair each game unit with an arbitrary magic number, for the purpose of then using this number as an array index in one of many parallel arrays, since Warcraft 3 did not offer any convenient system of data structures until only recently with some of the stuff on Reforged that is still behind a learning curve barrier and not immediately obviously available to new users
  • "File overrides" to replace ingame files with custom ones to hack them into looking or behaving in a different way due to the lack of any better api
  • "Triggered abilities" where one ability with a hardcoded action is used to fire custom user events to pretend that the ability has additional ingame actions, effects or behaviors (even though there is no way to define a new subclass of CAbility on a Warcraft 3 map, nor to change how any of them function from in a map, and there never has been)

This list was in no particular order and is only a few examples that came to my mind. An exhaustive list of "bad" design decisions used every day in Warcraft 3 mapping would be much, much longer.

So, for the reasons stated above, to even talking about "saving" Warcraft 3 is nonsense. It never was more than it is, and the only thing dead about it are the Battle.net 1.0 servers.
Reforged is a different technology than the Warcraft 3. It is a valiant effort to reinvent the technology over and over to make it into what some managers wished it was, although it isn't. For Blizzard to expend further resources trying to "improve" Reforged, at this point, would be unimagineable to me. The managers don't want the technologists to suffer, and the technologists don't want to do tasks that seem unreasonable for the sake of some ill-begotten idea invented by someone less familiar with technology than they are -- invented only to serve some players who refuse to move on to other game engines that are easier to support.

As for me, for years I went too deep into Warcraft III modding. I don't do it because it is right or reasonable. It's not. With this hobby, I choose to do whatever I want because I choose to, even if that hurts other peoples' feelings or is a bad idea.

Knowing all this stuff that I said above, it was clear to me from when Reforged was announced that no matter how good Reforged was, it would never be as good as I wanted, because I want that ephemeral, abstract better technology. In the end I wanted the same thing as whoever it was developing Reforged who tried to explain to the people around him that Warcraft 3 is a terrible technology. But the Reforged announcement made it clear. They were doing what they could with the Warcraft 3 technology despite its limits.

And while they spent their time doing that, I forced myself to prepare for the future that was to come. The future where I wanted that better technology and could not have it. The future where no matter how pretty the model of a Footman is, in order to make the Footman game object unselectable I would still have to add the 'Aloc' integer to his ability list to give him CAbilityLocust rather than just calling some reasonable function like "SetUnitSelectable" or better yet Unit.setSelectable(boolean) or something similar.

This future has come to pass more or less as expected. In my efforts to create the alternate system of my own game technology, I was forced to see one solemn truth. What I actually wanted was to be able to change the existing Warcraft 3 technology from sourcecode in absolutely any way I wanted, rather than to have to invent something new or invent the same thing over again. I want the source code of the 2003 game, "The Frozen Throne", to be mine to modify and recompile in any way that I desire -- with no strings attached and no obligation for me to modify it in a way that is profitable for anyone, not even myself. This is a simple but powerful truth.

For each of us, for everyone, we probably want something different. This one truth that I arrived at -- the one thing that I want -- is probably not what you want from Warcraft 3. So when you talk about saving it, you do not probably even want from the game what I want. What saves it for you does not save it for me.

So, for lack of a better option, I assume Blizzard will do nothing at all. You cannot save this.
 
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Uncle

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I think a simple patch would suffice. Fix some bugs, finish what they started with the editor improvements, etc.

That may not "save" the game, but it would certainly make modding it better. In my opinion the only thing that has kept Warcraft 3 going all of these years is the custom games. I know half of my friends never even touched the melee/ladder portion of the game and strictly bought Warcraft 3 to play mods.
 
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I think a simple patch would suffice. Fix some bugs,
I find that people do not appear to agree on what is wrong with Reforged, so I disagree with your premise that a simple patch could fix what was wrong. I wish that you were correct, though, even if I disagree.
 

Uncle

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  • Set VariableSet FixThisShit = Please

And fix all of the Ablity/Unit/Item stuff that they added in 1.31+. That and fix the Lua desync issues that make it practically unusable.

The damage is already done, but the least they could do is leave the game in a working state. They gave us some fun toys but half of them don't work properly or don't work at all.
 
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@Retera what I understood of what you said is the game can't be saved because is a product that born dead but the people loved it, and the unique thing that the updates did was unlock things those already existed in it, and reinvent it is pointless because there are better things and they are just "repeating what they did" instead of doing a new thing and the unique reason to do it is just "because of a whim", even if is done the people didn't cared in the first place so it was difficult that they even try to use it (obviously this will make the existing maps unusable).

Some of this things deep down I already knew these things, when I made this post I was hoping that someone tell me something that give me some of hope, but not confirming that, I have to think more of this.
 
Some of this things deep down I already knew these things, when I made this post I was hoping that someone tell me something that give me some of hope, but not confirming that, I have to think more of this.
I mean, if all you want is hope, I prefer to believe that there is hope. I am doing the Warsmash project to make my own hope. Warsmash Mod Engine
 

Dr Super Good

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But this problem is something that becomes a very, very deep problem. At some point, any sane software engineer in this position would revolt against his managers and go and build Warcraft 3 on the Starcraft 2 engine to prove how much easier and better it was. Again these are all just my personal theories, but why did Blizzard publish a Starcraft 2 patch that included all Warcraft 3 content as an extra mod shortly after Reforged launched? It was not done as a part of Reforged. I firmly believe that Reforged does not run on the Starcraft 2 engine. It is very plausible that that mod released for Starcraft 2 was made by a developer to prove to himself that Warcraft 3 was as bad as he thought it was, and that modding on that Starcraft 2 engine was objectively easier. And he probably found out that he was right about his conclusion, and probably believes that he made the world a better place by offering a way for modders to mod Warcraft 3 more easily than anything Reforged has to offer or will ever have to offer.
It is more likely to be left over from the time they were trying to port Warcraft III stuff to StarCraft II as part of encouraging custom map developers. A lot of those features were promised way back then but never materialised. I am guessing they were kept incubated until at some point when development was winding down they decided to release them in a last big patch rather than let the features go to waste.
 
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So rebuilding Warcraft III from the ground up with something like Warmash is the 'best' solution to 'saving Warcraft' since WCIII's code is unsalvageable at this point. I have to ask... Why didn't Blizzard consider adopting what Warmash is doing as a solution to 'reviving' Warcraft when Reforged was being developed?
 
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I don't think any of you should be letting Retera push you around just because he posts paragraphs of side material to make his argument look more compelling (especially since some of those conclusions he's making are flat out wrong-- especially the parts about "dummy units" which actually IS a thing and Starcraft 2 practically runs on it-- they just don't call it "dummy units").
 
Why didn't Blizzard consider adopting what Warmash is doing as a solution to 'reviving' Warcraft when Reforged was being developed?
Because it's probably a stupid and unreasonable idea. A rewritten thing is not likely to support existing maps without extra, often silly, work.

Like I mentioned before, Warsmash teaches me that what I really want is unrestricted access to mod the old Frozen Throne 2003 game in any way that I want from the source code level.

especially since some of those conclusions he's making are flat out wrong-- especially the parts about "dummy units" which actually IS a thing and Starcraft 2 practically runs on it-- they just don't call it "dummy units")
I'm surprised to hear that but it's true I did not spent nearly as much time trying to mod Starcraft 2. Maybe Starcraft 2 is badly designed as well, but I still would imagine it is less hastily written.
 
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So, what did quenching actually do?
Using the UI natives, and the native to set the minimap texture, couldnt you pretty easily make a custom campaign complete with its own HD 3D menu on Reforged? The problem is the community... nobody making that... and not that it isnt possible, right?
 
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Do you think the recent buy from Microsoft can give some hope?
I don't know, but I can tell you after the acquisition by the gaming developers is completed, those games are only compatible with Windows 10/11.
Notable example was Minecraft. There is a Windows 10/11 edition available through the official Mojang website.
 
Do you think the recent buy from Microsoft can give some hope?
I do not think so. Every time I use Windows I think about how Microsoft is a great company, because they manage to keep this amazing and awesome train wreck of legacy code running. When a company is great like that, as a result they will make financially wise decisions. So from my standpoint, I expect they would act the same as Activision Blizzard.

Would be great if I was wrong, though.
 
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I do not think so. Every time I use Windows I think about how Microsoft is a great company, because they manage to keep this amazing and awesome train wreck of legacy code running. When a company is great like that, as a result they will make financially wise decisions. So from my standpoint, I expect they would act the same as Activision Blizzard.

Would be great if I was wrong, though.
That is what I fear, but they had so much time to do that, we would expecting the worst scenario.
 
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