Hiveworkshop community involvement *observation*

[marvey323]

For the few out there left that are still mapping for warcraft 3 (like myself)...

and find that making a map on your own is SERIOUSLY, PAIN-STAKINGLY SLOW...

Check this:
- Go to project recruitment section of these boards and sort the threads in order of replies highest - to - lowest

Now look to see if you can find any thread posted in 2013 or 2014 or even 2012 that has more than 5 replies to that thread... you wont find it.

My point? We, the mapmakers of wc3 are basically ON OUR OWN to make maps.. and the result of this finding very accurately depicts the current state of the modding community.. not that it's a big shock or anything but it sure is depressing not to have anyone to collaborate with.

I have tried effortlessly to convey my unique map to the multitude here, and out of 100 views, one person replies with "post a picture or youtube video".

Fact is, a dozen or so people have been able to go through a test run with me on battle net as I said and they're practically addicted to the gameplay because it brings so much to the table.. but its insane to think I can continue working on this unfinished map on my own.. especially since it's barely 10% done and has over 100 hours put into it already.

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/project-recruitment-256/defending-heroes-looking-member-s-249023/

Ok I'm done my rant.

 

[Adiktuz]

oh yes we are... I wonder how long it took you to realize that?

Modding is just like game development, it requires a LOT of time from you... and another similarity? WITHOUT A PRIOR GOOD RECORD OR A GOOD SHOWCASE, YOUR CHANCES OF FINDING A TEAM IS ALMOST NONE... not unless you have friends whose into modding too or money to pay people.

 

[NeosDany]

You should create testable versions and do as I do. I go in any room in garena and host my own map and see what people thinks, this is how I test my maps, of course if there are bugs you may be ashamed, but not that much xd. This way I've got many friends who sometimes are free to test my maps.

 

[Adiktuz]

I think he has testers, his problem is that he cannot finish the project without a team

 

[PurgeandFire]

Well, joining a map project is no easy task. It has been this way for years, even when wc3 modding was at its peak. Sure, you can get beta testers & all that easily, but you usually won't get members to work on your project unless they are genuinely interested in it.

So then the issue becomes: how do you get people to be genuinely interested in your map?

Well, a description is the first and foremost requirement. People want to know what your map is about. However, you'd be surprised how many maps are alike in description. Every custom map says it has custom heroes, custom items, custom models, etc. They all say they are fun, and they all say they are original. But to any viewer, those are just words. Even if your map may be as awesome as you describe, there have been several maps in the past that failed to meet their expectations. It is only natural for people to believe the same--unless they are given reason to think that it actually meets its description.

So how do you make people think that it actually meets its description? Well, you need proof. There are multiple ways of achieving that: (1) a beta map (2) screenshots (3) videos. (1) is always good and will give people a good understanding of where your map is going, but people won't always feel inclined to download any old map. That is where visuals come in. You have to make it visually appealing so that people will want to download your map. This isn't a rule specific to mapping, but rather a rule specific to life. That is why people poor millions into advertising.

... and that explains why certain maps get more replies than others. It isn't necessarily about reputation or being a 'big name' (although, that is a factor)--it is all about presentation. That is why I get a little pestered when people complain about their map not getting noticed when they put no effort in its presentation (I'm not referring to you--just people in general).

But in general, people will still join maps (e.g. tales of the scarlet crusade, some of the hosted maps, Warcraft III Alpha, etc.). You won't see dedicated modelers anymore, but you rarely saw that before too. And there are still many, many modders. However, most modders will only work on projects they are interested in. As such, you have to appeal to them.

I agree that the project recruitment forum hasn't seen too much activity--I'm not sure how many people check it out. Tbh, most of the "team" projects were originally posted in map dev as just 1 person, and people joined once they got interested in the idea. So perhaps you should make a map development post and hope for the best. I agree, it is very difficult to complete a big project on your own and it is rather annoying. But follow the steps above and I'm pretty sure you'll get some more attention. I know it may seem lame to get replies like "post a picture or youtube video", but it is something you'll have to accept.

P.S. Keep in mind that forum activity drops a little around these months. Once it gets to Summer (or any breaks in general), it'll usually pick up quite nicely.

 

[Adiktuz]

Also always remember this:

HAVING A TEAM DOES NOT MEAN YOUR PROJECT WILL BE FINISHED...

Depending on your team, it might even be the cause of the ruin of your project.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

If you can not finish a project on your own, don't start a project. I've been on my own for almost the entire time. Don't get me wrong: I had some help, in fact, a really good amount of help when it comes to terraining. But the more recent updates I have been on my own completely.

That's perfectly normal and also a good thing. It makes you learn to do priority decisions properly.

 

[Adiktuz]

If you can not finish a project on your own, don't start a project.

Yeah, so true.

I would have wanted to link to a discussion by one of my fellows on the RM community about teams and why they don't work and also another one for budding devs but it looks like the threads have already been archived...

 

[LordDz]

Post screenshots and give a test map that way people will be more keen to join.

 

[WaterKnight]

http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...56/coders-unique-fun-hero-defense-map-248252/

You did not reply.

Every custom map says it has custom heroes, custom items, custom models, etc. They all say they are fun, and they all say they are original.

I automatically become suspicious if I read "custom" because of course you should not simply take standard objects. Bringing your own ideas to the table is what making your world is about. At least for object making we have taken this hurdle long ago. Furthermore "custom models/resources": The least mapmakers actually create the models/resources themselves. They rather just import them. Is this really an asset you can be proud of, which stands for your map?

Since you think that 100 hours is much, people you want to recruit have to spend a lot of time and effort, too, and this raises the question if they really see the same value in the project. Their aim is not to do your work but to realize their ideas of a map and there your views may collide and both parties have to take compromises. Unlike in professional game creation, you usually do not have alternative motivations like money&career here with fixed structures and competences. Moreover, the technical realization and skill often differs. For example, wurst users do not want to deal with your jass code and vice-versa. And the communication over the internet, the different online times, the additivity in editing your project usually causes problems.

 

[marvey323]

There are valid points in every reply to my thread. The fact still stands that the sheer amount of time it takes for me to add any big feature (like a system of some sort) bug-free seems like days or week(s). I often feel like I'm the only one that takes this long to map things or is it the same with most people?

It's as if it takes less time to get into something like a body building competition than to make a unique wc3 map !!

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There are valid points in every reply to my thread. The fact still stands that the sheer amount of time it takes for me to add any big feature (like a system of some sort) bug-free seems like days or week(s). I often feel like I'm the only one that takes this long to map things or is it the same with most people?

It's as if it takes less time to get into something like a body building competition than to make a unique wc3 map !!

That's perfectly normal. The most popular (high quality) maps with lots of content have been developed for years.

Of course, certain types of maps take longer to make than others and also require more time invested in different areas.


An AoS type map can be made pretty fast, as it doesn't require a lot of coding and usually the terrain is pretty basic. However, balancing an AoS type map is a pain in the ass.
Same goes for a tower defence or Survival type map. The basic structure can be done in several days, the balancing, however, may take months of constant trial and error.
RPGs are actually the worst in developement time, as they usually require extremely detailed terrain, custom AI, lots of custom items and creeps and almost no code can be recycled (every boss should work different after all).
A good RPG might take YEARS to develope.


The problem most new map designers have is, that they do not want to start with the basics. The general rule of thumb is: start with one feature and make it good! Trying to do everything at once will always end in a lack of content and players will lose interest very fast.
As an example of a survival map (which is kind of what you are trying to do), pick out one thing that makes your map stand out and make it BIG.

This could be itemization, this could be a unique AI, this could be lots and lots of custom bosses. This could also be awesome visuals! Keep everything else at the basics for starters.
When you are done pushing this first primary feature to its limits, add a new feature, like your custom inventory. Create a shitload of items to keep players interested.
When you feel satisfied with that, then (and only then) you can add another feature, like custom models or a PVP system, etc..



Just to give an example of how I started out:
I began with just three basic classes and only a small amount of spells. Then I created a unique customized AI that made the map stand out of the rest. I improved it to the point where I felt I could do almost everything with it and then, only then, I went on to add other features.
Things like custom inventory system and attachment models, custom hero models, etc. ... they all got added MUCH MUCH later, after the content was big enough to keep the player base on track.

tldr:
Do one thing and make it AWESOME. Then go to the next thing. Try not to overload your map with features at the start. Content always trumps features.
Some of the most popular maps do not have a lot of complicated systems or features. They just have a huge amount of content. Maps like DotA, Sunken Ruins, SWAT or Warlock. They are neither complicated nor bursting with features.

 

[Kino]

Fact is, a dozen or so people have been able to go through a test run with me on battle net as I said and they're practically addicted to the gameplay because it brings so much to the table.. but its insane to think I can continue working on this unfinished map on my own.. especially since it's barely 10% done and has over 100 hours put into it already.

If its that good, then why not just post it for everyone to test?
IMO, testing a map gives you a lot more info than simply forcing people to read your text descriptions despite what some on this site will tell you.

 

[Adiktuz]

If you want a good idea of how long a good map takes, just take a look at the hosted projects section or try to scourn the map dev section for "promising" projects and see how long they have been there...

 

[WaterKnight]

So have you actually ever participated in another project?

 

[Solu9]

I have tried effortlessly to convey my unique map to the multitude here, and out of 100 views, one person replies with "post a picture or youtube video"

That's funny.
When I check a map development thread or project recruitment thread I immediately go to the screenshot/video section.
If that is not to be found I leave the thread again.
Most of the time I actually skip the videos as well.

Only after looking at screenshots I go and read what the map is actually about.

I guess I'm writing this because I'm probably not the only one doing this.
And it is also to show one of the effects of adding screenshots to a map description.
Call it superficial.

 

[TriggerHappy]

The project recruitment forum doesn't usually have the best projects (or even ones that have been started) for recruitment.