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High Elves techtree without magic?

Discussion in 'Idea Factory' started by Tuwnew, May 21, 2018.

  1. Banelingline

    Banelingline

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    While Quel'Danil... actually didn't abandon magic in canon, apparently (they also maintained an independent supply of Dragonhawks), which makes the lore underpinning of this a bit bunk, Quel'Lithien did abandon magic. So they actually do exist, as stable settlements (well, Quel'Lithian wound up turned into Wretched by some random cursed artifact messing with their heads during Cata, but the highly similar Quel'Danil is a stable settlement with it's own death, and more importantly birth, records). Just not the specified group, weirdly enough.

    Seriously, at least pay attention to the Opening Post and actually do some research. Your objections have been noted and debunked. Now, I'll go on about what needs to be replaced (my ultimate idea is that as many unit dynamics be preserved as possible, but done by different means to get a different feel for very similar results):

    Archmage, Paladin and Blood Mage require replacement, as the first and last for being entirely magic-based and the Paladin for being something that the High Elves never had. Mere reskin doesn't work, as the High Elves never developed a warrior-priest order like the Humans wound up doing. Because of this, they don't have Paladins. The Blood Knights of the Blood Elves are a divergence based on ripping magic from a Naaru, rather than an adjustment to Priest training to get warrior-priests to deal with Undead in short order. Mountain King gets a pass for the Wildhammer alliance.

    I recommend a Hunter-leaning Ranger (summons Bear, for example) in replacement of Archmage, filling in similar roles from different directions. Then the Blood Mage can be a Wretched, using spontaneous mana drains like Devour (possibly in combination with a mass debuff to supply things to Devour) and a Metamorphosis that causes them to lose health while it's active, getting a similar abnormal benefit from Priest support the Pheonix has. Then the Paladin is, obviously, replaced with a beefed up Priest that goes all in on support.

    Sorceresses and Spellbreakers are entirely Arcane spellcasters, and thus need replacement. The Sorceress can be replaced with a nature-magic attacker, using poison and a summon for offense and having a flying or sometimes-invisible transformation that amplifies the CC usefulness. Spellbreakers can continue their anti-caster use, but need a different angle for it that stealing the spells (surprises me that they predate the Sunwell's destruction). A sort of proto-Paladin, tackling it from the angle of a more inquisitorial style than the warrior-priest style Lordaeron went with, could work out. Holy magic used in a heavily anti-Arcane way, rather than anti-Undead like the original Paladins, keeping the anti-caster role of the original Spellbreaker. A Wildhammer Shaman would also be usable in replacement of one of them.

    The Workshop in general needs replacement because, honestly, none of it fits the Wildhammer Dwarves. Riflemen are at least debatable, but heavy siege equipment? That's going to be High Elf stuff. So the Siege Tank gets replaced with some kind of siege beast, possibly a bear, the Mortar Team gets replaced by a ballista and the Flying Machine... Not sure, actually. Both the flying options are already taken by persistence of the Gryphon Aviary as a perfect fit, so I'm not sure what could replace the Flying Machine. Maybe unmounted Gryphons, in which case the rider might replace the Footman or Rifleman as the respective basic unit, using the Hypogryph Archer's mount mechanic. Then the Gryphon Aviary would need to be replaced by something completely different... Maybe a general beast upgrade center, shifting Animal War Training and a few other animal training abilities? Could roll into the beast-building that replaces the workshop...

    Dragonhawk Riders: Not quite replacement, as the issue lies solely on the fact that Aerial Shackles and Cloud are Arcane magic. Swap to similar effects with a different fluff and you can use the exact same model, possibly even keep the name.

    Knights: While they could be reskinned, there's enough short and melee ranged stuff already, and for Farstrider-based Elves, the mobility is begging for a ranged unit, if only as an upgrade option. The pattern of a t3 melee unit can be preserved by an upgraded beast from the workshop replacement.

    ---

    The Footman and Peasant can be reskinned, and the Rifleman can be replaced by an archer, but in the event of desperately wanting to actually change them for something else, the Peasant-equivalent could have a basic spell in replacement of the Call to Arms effect, offering something for buff interactions to apply to. Similarly, the Footman swap could have a bit of a shift to the Defend ability, adjusting the numbers so that it's more blanket defensive than specifically anti-archer. An Archer unit would do well to use a poison, instead of a range increase, as an upgrade. Similar damage results, in a decent number of situations, but it also bumps up damage slightly during combat.
     
  2. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    ARGH! How can you be so generous?? I've had "thank & respond to Stein's kickin' Jungle Troll concept art" on my To-Do list for *months* now!! :<

    lemme get back to you about Dalaran...
     
  3. Kyrbi0

    Kyrbi0

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    @Banelingline If you're biggest concern is maintaining as much of the standard faction as possible & simply replacing the overtly "arcane" elements, well... I submit it's even easier than you know.

    Basically it's all just window dressing. The Theme/Form (superficial aesthetics; as opposed to the Role/Function (underlying mechanics)) is easily changed via tooltip, icon, etc.

    For example, the Sorceress' Invisibility could simply be Nature-empowered; perhaps called "Leafmantle" or "Druidskin" or "Nature's Cloak" or "Arbor Eyes" or whatever. Bam: same spell, no longer arcane. Etc.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
  4. Chaosy

    Chaosy

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    Except when High Elves were common they were quite literary worshiping magic, so it is still extreme minority

    Except your example is still the minority of the minority.

    1. At that point in time, they are pretty much extinct. And that one example they became wretched because of that choice. "The lodge's fate is ironic, as the elves who dwelled there were the most fierce opponents of mana draining and abstained from it entirely–they ended up becoming Wretched, which only occurs after draining far too much arcane magic." I do not think that is a good example to prove that anti-magic elves exist when they inevitably transform within a few years.

    2. Even if you take that out of the calculation, we are speaking about 100 people that are living at the lodge? You are then going to fight the a horde of orcs that number thousands? same for humans or night elves, good lucking taking over Ashenvale (melee map) with 100 soliders, provided all of the people at the outpost are battle trained.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  5. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Maybe make it mechanically different though.

    For example, instead of Slow, make a spell that causes vines or tall grass to grow in an area, slowing enemies for a shorter duration.
     
  6. Tuwnew

    Tuwnew

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    Well, if you need more explanations about context, just read this:

    Everything starts with my campaign project : Alliance Ashes which takes place during TFT.
    This campaign allows us to have a vision of what happens on human side.
    At some point, our heroes reach Quel'Danil.
    Highvale Elves did not followed Kael'Thas and abandoned their old magic.

    They will be playable for like two missions and I need to make a simple techtree for them without using Arcane Magic.
    They are led by Saldor Shallowbrook (I don't really know his class, so I decided to make him a Melee caster)
    The dwarves and Farstriders will not follow the hero, only Saldor and his cast.

    @Chaosy ; There are 800~ people at Quel'Danil in Lands of Conflits. I don't know exactly when.
    Before WOW Vanilla ?
    Even though, WarCraft is not well-made itself for those calculs.
    There are wars for like 50 years and each faction looks infinite, so... I can still make an exception with that =)

    @Kyrbi0 is right. We can easily use standard spell with only changes made to icon or effect. But I still want to make things differents.

    However, I will not create a full techtree with all the 12 standard units and innovation everywhere.
    For example, Dwarves will not be implemanted, Wretched neither.

    To conclude, the things I need for now is to determine abilities for Sorceress and Spellbreaker and find.
    For the "Knight", I think I can use a Dragonhawk Rider on foot (just like in the fabulous tomoraider campaign) but can't find it on hive though. And even though, I must reskin it with blue.


    I thank you all for your answers ^^
     
  7. cleavinghammer

    cleavinghammer

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    Spellbreaker:
    Instead of simply removing magic, a spell that damages/heals enemies/allies when removing buffs.
    Feedback that removes mana without doing extra damage.
    And maybe give them the Magic Defend ability instead of immunity.

    Sorceress:
    Entangle: Temporarily slows all enemies in the AoE.
    Windcloak (autocast): Gives the target Evasion while the buff is active.
    Call Beast: Summons a random forest animal (1 at a time, resets when recast).
     
  8. Banelingline

    Banelingline

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    It's more "minimal changes necessary", while preserving as many dynamics as possible. Fill the same roles with different mechanics that lead to a very different feel, but similar outcomes. Make it feel like a new race, but have very nearly identical performance to humans.

    Actually, if you'd pay some proper goddamn attention, you'd notice mention of a sinister artifact that fucked them over. They became Wretched specifically because they turned away from that choice, going in the complete opposite direction, due to digging up a corruptive artifact. So the anti-magic stance works, as far as we know.

    The typical "army" in Warcraft 3 is 20 or so units. The literal maximum, assuming all 1 food cost units, is 100. And Quel'Danil has extensive ties to Wildhammer Dwarves. They beat away a local Troll tribe, as well. They're not helpless, they have noteworthy military capabilities. Sure, a proper army would utterly destroy them, but they'd very much be working to avoid that in the first place, leaning on the Alliance to protect the borders of the area and the Wildhammer Dwarves as military backup to round out the numbers against any force that actually gets to them.