Gaias 1.2 ... and yes, I'm not joking.

[SirDestroyChen1]

Yay talent trees

 

[Gotenks]

About sorcerer tree isnt conjuration and invocation like same? i mean both sound like summons

 

[Zwiebelchen]

About sorcerer tree isnt conjuration and invocation like same? i mean both sound like summons

By referencing sources like Dungeons and Dragons, then conjuration is summoning of matter, whereas invocation is the summoning and manipulation of energies.
This basicly seperates pure fire and lightning spells (invocation) from water, earth and physical spells (conjuration). Enchanting includes all spells that change and alter existing stuff; mostly covering buffs/debuffs/utility spells.

For example, fireball, Magic Missile or lightning charge would be invocation (as they are pure forms of energy), whereas spells like water globes or meteor strike would be conjuration (as they create matter). Spell Mirror, Fire Shield, Energy Drain would be enchanting, etc.


Other than that, I've looked through my black box of scripting awesomeness and managed to create an AI sub-routine for pets which will make them try to avoid AOE-effects like shockwave, Inferno or Ashes to Ashes. As a result, I reduced the resistances of pets a little, as now they won't die that easily by AOE effects anymore.
In my testing runs this was working so well that my pet did a better job at avoiding AOE than I did. ... but I blame the lag on that one... sure ... that was it. Yes. ... Errr...

This script also allows me to implement mercenaries that are not totally useless in dungeons. For testing purposes, one or two mercenaries might already be available in 1.1m.

 

[Vestra]

And a new boss, don't forget the new boss.

Taking all that you've just said into account regarding conjuration and invocation, what does that leave for the elemental tree for necromancers?

 

[Zwiebelchen]

And a new boss, don't forget the new boss.

Taking all that you've just said into account regarding conjuration and invocation, what does that leave for the elemental tree for necromancers?

Errr, who said there is going to be a new boss? Did I say that? I can't remember. :/
I wouldn't even know where to add one even if I wanted to...

The elemental tree of necromancers is basicly the continuation of the mage archetype damage focus. The talents in this branch will focus about improving the raw damage output of necromancers and improving the AoE capacity.

 

[_lycan]

what's new for druids? i read spirits but does that means new summons?

 

[Vestra]

Errr, who said there is going to be a new boss? Did I say that? I can't remember. :/
I wouldn't even know where to add one even if I wanted to...

The elemental tree of necromancers is basicly the continuation of the mage archetype damage focus. The talents in this branch will focus about improving the raw damage output of necromancers and improving the AoE capacity.

I'm just throwing in a random request for one, I've been waiting for a double ogre boss for like a year now man, go on, make one, it'll blow our minds. Could do with another world boss.

Sounds good, nice to see they'll have some use out of their elemental skills due to that tree. Would be nice if it did benefit some future skills in some way as well. If you can find a way to set skeletons on fire I'll be highly amused. Other than fire shield, I mean immolation damage, that kind of shit.

 

[ChaosClouds]

Great work for the update Zweib!!

I have a suggestion for a lightning charge spell, it's good that you increase the critical damage to 200%. However, imho, this spell is just too plain.
I would suggest to make lightning charge as a channeling spell similar to crusader spell (while maintaining the same animation yet the dps is similar to life drain skill (around 0.25-0.5sec). The channeling time will be the same as the cooldown which mean it deals same amount of damage to the current lightning charge
(2.5x spell power over 2,75 sec if I'm not mistaken).
Pros:
-it makes the spell more unique.
-it gives more efficiency, yet maintaining the same overall dps.
Con:
-Loss of mana even if you only cast half of the channeling duration.

 

[Hawajska]

I was thinking about water lord boss next to shore below destroyed bridge middle north part of the map.

 

[Gotenks]

i see sounds good also about light charge think u can buff it a bit to like x2.8 spellpower bcuz right now is not rly good dmg at all even if u use globes it sometimes hits only for 350 (maxed char and lvl 43)

 

[InfernalTater]

Movement speed for agility? Why would that make any sort of sense

Oh, I don't know, maybe because the definition of agility is speed of movement. *Sigh* people don't think, sometimes. It does make sense, the real reason that it can't be implemented is because the speed of your enemies would have to adjust to compensate, which would take work.

I agreed with most of what you'd said, but that one particular comment was just...

Also, doubtful's idea of using potions from your backpack and being able to equip boots -- Most of his ideas were bad, but I really do like that idea. If it's such a big deal, you can always just make the monsters a tiny bit tougher to balance with the additional item.

Also, Zwieb, about the code wipe: I'd prefer if you saved all code-wiping features until 1.2, so that we can continue using our characters up until that release, and then start over in 1.2. That would be really nice, as it would allow us to test all of the new 1.2 stuff from level 1 onwards. But restarting over and over again now, with not much affecting early-game gameplay, it simply gets repetitive.

 

[FunnyDog]

Also, Zwieb, about the code wipe: I'd prefer if you saved all code-wiping features until 1.2, so that we can continue using our characters up until that release, and then start over in 1.2. That would be really nice, as it would allow us to test all of the new 1.2 stuff from level 1 onwards. But restarting over and over again now, with not much affecting early-game gameplay, it simply gets repetitive.

In my opinion too. Zwiebel, I think you should implent the codewipe in 1.2, because then, we can really enjoy all the features on from lvl 1 and we won't miss anything (for low level characters) that will be implented in 1.2.

 

[EloTheMan]

I think the option to have one potion at a time is part of the balancing actually, healers and casters could skip some points in the WIS and use a Mana Potion instead while they still don't have to take the risk of getting themselves killed during the encounters with the security of a Health Potion and extra CON points.

Or I could sacrifice one item in my inventory for that extra potion instead. Its your decision actually, +Health or +Mana (or both with -one item in inventory).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I think the option to have one potion at a time is part of the balancing actually, healers and casters could skip some points in the WIS and use a Mana Potion instead while they still don't have to take the risk of getting themselves killed during the encounters with the security of a Health Potion and extra CON points.

Or I could sacrifice one item in my inventory for that extra potion instead. Its your decision actually, +Health or +Mana (or both with -one item in inventory).

While I admit that this was not an intentional design decision at the first place, I kinda acknowledged this as a positive benefit.

The main reasons, however, why potions are not being allowed to use right from the backpack are as follows:
1) It would be impractical, as then you'd need to swap over to your backpack in-combat
2) it would make the overall item and equipment system MUCH more complicated. And with 'much', I basicly mean that it would require a total rewrite of the entire item system. I don't think this is worth it, especially as it would by definition restart the whole process of bugfixing the item system anew - which took almost a year to catch every possible case and exploit.
3) it would make the inventory less intuitive. I was never a friend of un-intuitive, unneccesary complex systems - that's why I haven't hopped on the Fullscreen-Inventory train yet and probably never will. I like Gaias for its deep but yet very simplistic design and I will always try to keep up with that mantra. Keep it simple, let the depth come from the gameplay, not the controls.
4) I don't really think the sixth inventory slot is needed for anything else than consumables anyway. I will not implement another item category. 5 is more than enough for an RPG of Warcraft-III size. In the end, I'd rather invest the time creating all those new items for the possible sixth category into creating more items for the other categories, thus adding to the character diversity and item choices.


I will probably add a Rejuvenation Potion in the future, which will have a combined effect of mana and health potion at a shared cooldown with mana potions for those people that like to be prepared for whatever case.


Also, about the code wipe issue:
All new 'core-features' of 1.2 will already be present in 1.1m to allow as much testing as possible before I actually ship the new highlevel content. This way I can prevent a very time-costly closed betatest and instead completely focus on balancing the new content on the 1.2 beta. In the end, it's better for everyone.
If you don't like the code wipe or new features to happen before 1.2, there is a very simple solution: Keep playing 1.1L and pretend 1.1m isn't there.

 

[FunnyDog]

Was just a guess^^. Codewipe before 1.2 is okay too .

 

[Hawajska]

how about make potions useable from backpack?

It would even fit reality (searching for potion in ur backpack, than using)

and for extra slot, another item

 

[InfernalTater]

how about make potions useable from backpack?

It would even fit reality (searching for potion in ur backpack, than using)

and for extra slot, another item

This has literally been discussed about four times in the past few pages. In fact, only two posts above you, Zwiebel finally specifically said he will not do that. I like your idea, sure, but at the same time I don't like that you didn't read anything before posting.

 

[Hawajska]

ohh... I'm so sorry...

 

[_lycan]

zwielb i find that very awesome tastic =D

 

[EloTheMan]

Hmm, how about dropable Potion recipes in 1.2? Just like a normal crafting recipe except you use stuff like Ankhmar Weed and Carvo Leafs and Ruby to make some different potions, the Rejuvention potion you mentioned could be the first one you obtain since it is a bit advanced compared to the regular ones. They should not be any stronger than the standard potions but they grant different effects.

I guess they should be a bit costy depending on the effect but it could be a good feature for players who does not need gold anymore. The first recipe could be bought at a shop along with basic ingredients for making the first Potion and parts of the advanced ones, then the players must gather the remaining ingredients. Advanced recipes should be dropped off bosses. Also a Cauldron is required for making them.


What do you guys think? Just came up with it during the talk about Potion remake

 

[Gotenks]

well as for me i think different kinds of potions would be nice is kinda funny how all potions are "minor" healing potion and mana potion at least should rename em just to mana potion and healing potion and maybe make them with a custom look....maybe...just a suggestion.

And just being curios i wasted time surfing the old forum part (again) and well wanted to ask how long or till when you are going to keep working on gaias orpg becouse well i guess im not the only one who thinks thie orpg is simplely the best one in wc3 and would be nice to have it fully complete...yea...things like tkok and that are nice too... (perhaps, but i do think tkok is not as half good as gaias, it somehow gets me bored i dont know why rly bcuz is nice too), but anyways my real question here is:

Are you planing on getting the whole map area filled with something to play and like an end boss?

 

[Vestra]

Alchemy could be an interesting crafting option. Potions could be used for a variety of things other than healing. Temporary buffs, debuffs on enemies. Maybe even allow players to craft bombs with animal skins and various forms of matter. They don't need to be heavily advanced but they could create some interesting debuffs or mines to use in dungeons.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I will not implement alchemy or alchemy recipes to the crafting system, as a possible new advanced class in far-in-the-future updates will probably be alchemist and I don't want colliding terms in this case.

This, however, doesn't mean there can't be epic recipes for lets say buff potions.
Health and Mana potions... well ... won't be crafted items, simply because I think its not really adding to the fun of the game to be able (or even be mandatory) to craft higher level mana or health potions. (Usually this turns out to be a boring and tedius farming thing)

The pots in the game are "minor" because there will be better mana and health potions available later (actually, they are available at 1.1m as they are already coded and implemented. They are just not implemented yet, as the content implemented doesn't require such potions so far.


by the way:
I am going to use a special trick to avoid having to import disabled icons. This saves roughly 1 megabyte of map space. For this, I need "generic" disabled icons for all item categories (kinda like inventory slot backgrounds in common MMORPG).
If you guys want to contribute, feel free to give suggestions for those icons or even better: make your own.

I need 1 generic disabled icon for each of the following item categories:
Weapon
Shield/Offhand
Headgear
Accessory
Armor

The disabled icons should match the style of WC3 ordinary disabled icons, being darkened out and having a border.
Also, they should look as generic as possible, as all items of this kind will share this disabled icon.

 

[joechanaaa]

Codewipe in 1.1m?

 

[Hawajska]

Codewipe in 1.1m?

derp

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I used the required codewipe for 1.1m to do something I always wanted to do since... ever ...:
Getting rid of Pipedream's long discontinued Save/Load system and replacing it by Nestharius awesome BIGINT library, which allows me to savely generate much longer codes, thus allowing for a lot more data to be saved.

I also started the implementation of the upgradable item stash in Mytargas.

 

[S0ulseeker]

Awesome news about the save/load system and hearing about the upgradable stash :]

 

[Vestra]

As long as there won't be a wipe for 1.2 I'm happy.

Just remember you said there would be a boss in 1.1m zwieb, you said it, not me, it was clearly you, everyone saw it.

 

[_lycan]

he did not.

 

[Gotenks]

Would you quote when todez said he would add a boss on 1.1m vestra bcuz as for me i really dont remember he ever said that.

Also about the new code system think u can just replace the -savehd with just -save (ofcorse i mean -savehd is kinda funny when u just -save, but i mean change the auto code maker to just -save if its possible)

And again i give u my aproval for the codewipe

 

[Vestra]

Would you quote when todez said he would add a boss on 1.1m vestra bcuz as for me i really dont remember he ever said that.

There will totally be a boss in 1.1m, this isn't like, some edited quote, seriously, don't even click the reference button. There will be a boss, just saying.

There, see?

 

[Gotenks]

Errr, who said there is going to be a new boss? Did I say that? I can't remember. :/
I wouldn't even know where to add one even if I wanted to...

Even though i dont really get where u get that from (it somehow looks fake ) anyways i would prefer he releases 1.1m with wipe soon as possible boss shouldnt delay it more than it already been delayed and i think not only me want the new ver soon as possible

Besides he clearly says he doesnt even know where to add it, you should suggest him a place because i dont know where either

 

[Wolfe]

Adding an ogre boss could be an option. Something part of a quest-chain that people farming ogres can kill time doing.

There is a lot of room in the sewers. Perhaps a wizard maddened by the plague?

Maybe even a triggered event where Gaspode and his forces must fall back and some kind of undead monstrosity manages to push forward into the city. Perhaps his skills focus in linear attacks to match the streets/lanes of the capital?

 

[wowhunter]

As long as there won't be a wipe for 1.2 I'm happy.

Yep, same here. If there is a code wipe in 1.1m I would rather there be none in 1.2... Ziewb never gave a clear answer as to will there be a code wipe in 1.2 if there is a code wipe in 1.1m.

 

[Vestra]

I'm keen for a level 40 ogre boss.
or 35, I'll settle with 35.

Zwieb is the change that would make quests only provide xp to a certain level going to be included in 1.1m or will people still be able to save all quests to 40 to reach 43.

 

[GIMLI_2]

Yep, same here. If there is a code wipe in 1.1m I would rather there be none in 1.2... Ziewb never gave a clear answer as to will there be a code wipe in 1.2 if there is a code wipe in 1.1m.

--------------->

Just wanted to clarify:
Copewipes will always happen if one of those three conditions are met:

1) Adding content that has to be saved (adding more inventory slots, implementing a talent system, implementing the token system, adding a new character class, etc.)

2) Gamebreaking bugs occur which will have a permanent, save-able impact on player characters

3) The implemented continuous content (items, quests) exceeds the pre-determined limits of the current savecode.

-----------------------
1) is the case here. I can not add the bank/chest feature without editing the save/load routine, also, I can not store the food counter to the savecode without a code wipe, which will be neccesary for the token system that might be implemented in 1.2

2) hopefully we will never see that again

3) the existing limits still allow a huge number of new items and quests without changing anything on the system
-----------------------


So it's a matter of choice wether you want to see that bank account / token feature implemented or not. Currently, there is no need for a code wipe other than this feature. The talent system has already a defined room in the existing code, so I wouldn't have to reset as long as I don't change the numbers.

Codewipe is not required for 1.2. It's just a matter of wether you want this feature or not.

he cannot say now if there will be a code wipe or not...

 

[Vestra]

--------------->




he cannot say now if there will be a code wipe or not...

lolol it was a joke GIMLI, but thanks for clarifying.

Zwieb has said roughly 3 times that a codewipe WILL be included in 1.1m

 

[GIMLI_2]

oh, sry didnt know that

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Just to make it clear, as some people might still be confused:

1.1m will come with a codewipe. This is a neccessity due to all the features I implemented which need to be saved differently.

1.2 will not come with a code wipe and will be compatible to 1.1m as long as no gamebreaking bugs occur in 1.1m (or any exploits that I consider as a serious issue).


I'm almost done with 1.1m.
The only things left is completing the implementation of the stash, debugging it (multiplayer-testing all possible cases) and adding the talent system, such as the mercenary system (which won't take long, as they will use the same mechanic that pets use).

Actually making talents won't take that long, I suppose, as most of this stuff is only about adjusting numbers, adding some buffs, procs, etc.
It's not nearly as complicated as actually adding active abilities.


About the mercenaries:

Mercenaries will be heroes that will always be at the same level as the "master" and can be used to replace player slots. Only one mercenary can be active per player. Also, the total number of mercenaries for hire will depend on the number of players in the game:
5 players or more: no mercenaries
4 players: 1 mercenary
3 players: 2 mercenaries
2 players: 2 mercenaries
1 player: 1 mercenary

Mercenaries will not have an inventory.
Mercenaries will have up to 3 generic hero skills and will not be directly controllable (same mechanic as pets).


So I'm open for your suggestions.

Come up with mercenary names, probably the unit model used for it (must be a wc3 standard, I will not import custom models for mercenaries) and suggest the possible skills for those (out of the pool of existing hero abilities! They won't get custom skills).

 

[Gotenks]

And no new boss right?

 

[SirDestroyChen1]

How bout a mage merc for teh dps?

Class:Enchanter(something magy/mystical or some shit)
Nameamian
Modelruid of the Talon
Spells: Fireball,Meteor,Arcane Missiles

 

[Vestra]

And no new boss right?

We all really would like a new boss zwieb, we would.

For the sake of it, a few merc

---------------

Markov, the Brigand (If you don't want him to have a russian name idc)

Model: I'd recommend the ranged thief model.
Skills: Embrittling acid, Ensnare, Barbed Arrow

Hopefully this could act as a good dps support, provided it had reasonable ai when using things like ensnare. Barbed arrow is purely to keep its agro down.

---------------

Ghrul, the Shaman

Model: The wc3 orc shaman, again, this comes under where you'd like them to take place in the game. If this won't work, maybe use the troll witchdoctor. I'd be interested to see a melee healer though.

Skills: Mend, Remedy, Mana Drain

Depending on the units mana pool, it should hopefully burn through enough healing due to it's lack of divine shield, and stay within enough mana to continue healing by attacking units from melee range. Probably the only way I could see an extra healer working without making dungeons too easy. If that's still an issue, remove one heal and replace with the squire passive for combat durability.

---------------

Ruby, the Pyromancer

Model: Imma have to go for the elvish mage, but that does tie her to dota pretty badly. If need be, make her less fire orreintated to remove the connection but I don't think it matters too much.

Skills: Fireball, Fire Shield, Meteor

The purpose here is constant aoe to assist a party with troubling spreading damage. Fire shield, which is a useless skill, is simply in the mix to keep to the theme, and to encourage zwieb to make it somewhat better than it currently is. It could easily be replaced with something along the lines of mana drain. Or, if fire damage becomes a problem, i.e. for something like The Blazing Flame, go for magic missiles.


So those are my ideas for mercenaries.

Also, Ogre Boss

 

[Gotenks]

from what i see it is really only you the one who wants a new boss i just want the new version with wipe asap so i can get started again.

Anyways there will oviously be more than one new boss in the future so i dont see whats the hurry

 

[SirDestroyChen1]

Markov, the Brigand

I like the russian thief idea, kinda like the scoundrel from diablo3. However i'd swap out barbed arrow for flaming arrow or something more consistent

 

[Wolfe]

Actually Gotenks, I would also like a new boss. Something to spice up end-game again like the Shadow in the Sewers.

 

[Vestra]

from what i see it is really only you the one who wants a new boss i just want the new version with wipe asap so i can get started again.

Anyways there will oviously be more than one new boss in the future so i dont see whats the hurry

Again, I'm joking. I'm just being a pain in the ass really. Although I am sure it's not just me who would like some new content to explore. I really don't mind either way but a little teaser of a new area with new enemies or a new boss wouldn't hurt in showing people what the path to d4 would be like.

I like the russian thief idea, kinda like the scoundrel from diablo3. However i'd swap out barbed arrow for flaming arrow or something more consistent

I went with Barbed Arrow for the agro reduction plus I'd prefer to see elemental damage stick to a mage based mercenary. If one is purely physical based that could be interesting.

The one type of mercenary I left out was a tank, which is why I suggested the squire passive for the Shaman.

Also Zwieb, I assume you'll only allow one of each type of mercenary ingame at any point in time to keep things balanced?

 

[Gotenks]

Actually Gotenks, I would also like a new boss. Something to spice up end-game again like the Shadow in the Sewers.

Well dont worry im not agains the new boss but i just mean tat will delay 1.1m way more than it already has and i wana check out the new things like the grapics the new save system the merchant all that things
My point is that should be more to like 1.2

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Believe me guys theres nothing I'd like to implement more than some of the new content. I mean the terrain is 90% done, but I feel it would not be a wise decision to do so.
I want 1.2 to be as epic as possible and I don't want to defile the experience by pushing out every piece of content one by one and leaving the players unsatisfied when reaching level 50 and not having a complete dungeon to run.

Just be a little more patient. 1.1m will be a lot of fun. The amount of improvements over the last version is huge. Also, due to the changes in the experience system, you can expect it to be much more challenging than before simply because you won't be able to reach level 43 anymore. This and the new improved AI, lots of changes to spells and the talent system which finally allows 'real' customization of heroes.

 

[InfernalTater]

I used the required codewipe for 1.1m to do something I always wanted to do since... ever ...:
Getting rid of Pipedream's long discontinued Save/Load system and replacing it by Nestharius awesome BIGINT library, which allows me to savely generate much longer codes, thus allowing for a lot more data to be saved.

I also started the implementation of the upgradable item stash in Mytargas.

Nestharius made a pretty epic encoding system, I must say.

Mercenaries will not have an inventory.
Mercenaries will have up to 3 generic hero skills and will not be directly controllable (same mechanic as pets).


So I'm open for your suggestions.

Come up with mercenary names, probably the unit model used for it (must be a wc3 standard, I will not import custom models for mercenaries) and suggest the possible skills for those (out of the pool of existing hero abilities! They won't get custom skills).

A lot of stuff

I think these mercenaries would fit better as some rough-handed humans using the bandit model, bandit spearthrower model, and bandit mage model, and be hired in bars or inns.

Using orc and troll models just doesn't quite fit in my opinion.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Nestharius made a pretty epic encoding system, I must say.

Nestharius is pretty epic in everything he does... but then again, his systems are usually so advanced in terms of coding that I sometimes got trouble to figure out what they actually do. :/

I think these mercenaries would fit better as some rough-handed humans using the bandit model, bandit spearthrower model, and bandit mage model, and be hired in bars or inns.

Using orc and troll models just doesn't quite fit in my opinion.

Hmm... I only partially agree here. Calling them mercenaries is just to select a name for the baby. They are more like companions, etc.. It's not neccesarily required that they are "typical" outlaw mercenaries.

Well... to be honest I didn't thought it over for so long. I never intended the mercenary system to be something huge or a core game concept. It's just a bonus for those players that like to play in small groups and still want to be able to beat outdoor bosses or outleveled dungeons. Or to replace a missing fifth player in a dungeon group when someone disconnected. I think they will do well for those purposes. Just don't expect mercenaries to replace fullblown player characters. They never will. But four and a half players is better than just four - and at least they won't die that easily because of the AOE avoiding AI so they will at least contribute a little to the group.