Gaias 1.2 ... and yes, I'm not joking.

[Zwiebelchen]

You know, I often promised to continue Gaias to 1.2 somewhen ... well ... I thought about it again and came to the conclusion that I might have the time to add some minor new content updates to Gaias in the next months.

I once promised to remake the inventory system ... but I accepted that it would require to much time I don't have ... and to be honest: I like it the way it is much more than any fullscreen inventory with all the bugs and stuff.

I simply want to code a little in the future again. So you will probably see a fourth dungeon and some new spells soon. I never felt that it was 'right' to let Gaias Retaliation ORPG end without the advanced classes to really develope their powers.
I just hope that all the tools and editors still work, as WC3 got some patches since the last release of Gaias.


I will keep it at one dungeon and some spells. You probably won't see a new questing area, as the amount of terraining would simply exceed the amount of work I can afford to put into.
I still haven't thought about the theme of the new dungeon ... I'm open for suggestions.

For the spells, I'm pretty sure what I am going to add, as the advanced classes have to compete in their class roles better.

That means that monks for example get upgrades in their tanking abilities, necromancers got a new, interesting minion, Druids get better healing abilities, etc.

I will start coding the spells in the next days ... let's see what I can get done. It's been a long time since I used vJASS ... will probably take a little longer than before to create spells, but I think I will get into it very fast once I started.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

I wanted to add that I need additional information on major bugs in version 1.1e that require a fix. Please remember that I don't want to waste that much time on bugfixing, so I will only fix bugs that are serious in terms of gameplay. I won't fix tooltip inconsistencies or spelling errors or NPC abuse like Gaspode, which I think only morons care about anyways. :/

Also, I need some feedback on the advanced classes so far ... what you like about them, what you don't like, what you think are their weaknesses, etc. ... especially those "underdog" classes like necromancer, monk, bard, etc.

 

[Kniff]

Hi there,

good to see you back. I hope save codes will still work after upgrade

So far major bugs I know:
- bash ability of creeps can hit u indefinitely often if you run away from them and they have the ability rdy
- if you are in dungeon2 at the last boss and the cinematic starts people can drop outside the dungeon while fighting mobs

to weak classes in my opinion:
- monk cant tank because he has no crowd control renders him mostly useless as a tank at the weaves incoming at the gaspode part (crusader has AOE aggro with crucify and demoralizing shout // berserker shout and leap and splash)
- hunter to low dmg output, pet is useless in dungeon no dmg at all
- druid to weak healer, bishop much better
- necromancer: skeletons are mega weak: they maybe deal 20 dmg and have 150 hp if your lvl 35 --> they deal 1 dmg against most creeps with armor

Bard: I dont rly now, I havent seen yet. But I think if he uses song of vigor on a berserker that could propably pwn.

PS: Im always up for a game!

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hi there,

good to see you back. I hope save codes will still work after upgrade

So far major bugs I know:
- bash ability of creeps can hit u indefinitely often if you run away from them and they have the ability rdy
- if you are in dungeon2 at the last boss and the cinematic starts people can drop outside the dungeon while fighting mobs

Well ... I haven't heard of the second one before, but I will definitely check the first one out and fix it.
If there aren't any more gamebreaking bugs, that would be awesome, as I think this is easy to fix.

to weak classes in my opinion:
- monk cant tank because he has no crowd control renders him mostly useless as a tank at the weaves incoming at the gaspode part (crusader has AOE aggro with crucify and demoralizing shout // berserker shout and leap and splash)

Well ... this is somewhat intended. Monk is made as "incredible solo-mob tank along with average damage output". Monks will never receive AoE styled tanking abilities, as I think that shouldn't be their class role. However, I will make sure monks will be superior to crusaders in terms of single-target tanking with the skills i'm going to add.
I was thinking about giving the monk some kind of combo-styles which slowly build up buffs and can then be unloaded into massive elemental damage.

- hunter to low dmg output, pet is useless in dungeon no dmg at all

Thanks for reporting that ... I'm going to think about a way to improve the pet in dungeons. Maybe I will add some skill to the pet which makes the pet deal more damage the more armor the mobs have.

- druid to weak healer, bishop much better

Yeah ... I assumed it was that way. Maybe I will add something like an AoE heal to the druid class, to also make it a little different from the bishop.
I also thought about some kind of summoning spell that summons a fairy to your aid. There could be several "types" of that fairy, for example a damage dealer type or an assisting healer (which automaticly heals the player with the lowest health in range), etc.

- necromancer: skeletons are mega weak: they maybe deal 20 dmg and have 150 hp if your lvl 35 --> they deal 1 dmg against most creeps with armor

I will give them more armor penetration in the next update. For the new spells, I will probably add some kind of mage skeleton which throws shadowbolts.

Bard: I dont rly now, I havent seen yet. But I think if he uses song of vigor on a berserker that could propably pwn.

I will add more songs to the bard's repertoire. It was all thanks to that limitation of "1 new spell per advanced class" that made the bard so weak. You can't play a buffer class that has just one buff. :/

Thanks for your feedback.
Maybe I will add 2 new spells per class instead of just 1. I think with just one more spell, I can't 'define' the advanced classes enough. I want them to play more different than they do now.



For the new dungeon, I was already talking to Teh.Fellow now.
We came to the conclusion that the next dungeon theme will be somewhat of a flying island, kinda like in the movie Avatar. I think it will be a pretty cool setting worthy of Gaias Retaliation and it fits the theme, if you ask me.

 

[SmileyGhost]

To start off I want to say that I'm very happy to see that you are continuing this map.

Just to clarify... The new dungeon you are thinking of adding should be done at about the same level as with d3 (~lvl 30)? Or will you add new mobs to enable easier leveling? In any case, I like the idea that you submitted. It sounded very cool. The question is; what type of monsters would be at that flying island?

I'm not sure if these are any "major bugs" or not but I'll mention them and let you decide.
1. The last boss in d2 can easily be solo'd with a magician standing in one spot casting Arcane Missiles. I'm quite sure the ranger can do the same with Fire Arrows.
2. Wolf boss can be solo'd by any class with ranged attack by standing behind a wall below the boss.
3. In d3 there is a group of monsters that are right at the entrance to the graveyard at the revenant-like boss. When pulling these the boss gets pulled as well, this may be intentional though.
4. Demon Heart material doesn't drop. Without the Demon Heart you may want to consider nerfing the Fire Boss (last boss) in d3?

Other suggestions (I'll try not to repeat the same things that others already have):
1. There is no orange item for thief and therefore no need for them to have mana crystals, even though these are possible to steal from the last boss in d3. It would be nice if you could add an orange item for thief class.
2. Fire Shield for magician feels quite useless because of its low damage. May want to consider increasing that a bit.
3. There isn't really an orange item for druids either. The orange bow is more suited for hunters and the Venomous Keep bow seems to be a better choice for druids. May want to consider adding an orange druid bow (or totem etc).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

To start off I want to say that I'm very happy to see that you are continuing this map.

Just to clarify... The new dungeon you are thinking of adding should be done at about the same level as with d3 (~lvl 30)? Or will you add new mobs to enable easier leveling? In any case, I like the idea that you submitted. It sounded very cool. The question is; what type of monsters would be at that flying island?

We haven't made a decision about the general "theme" of that flying island yet. Probably some kind of tropical jungle ... we will see. Also it's not clear which mobs there will be. We thought about dragons, but it depends on the style of the terrain in the end.

1. The last boss in d2 can easily be solo'd with a magician standing in one spot casting Arcane Missiles. I'm quite sure the ranger can do the same with Fire Arrows.
2. Wolf boss can be solo'd by any class with ranged attack by standing behind a wall below the boss.
3. In d3 there is a group of monsters that are right at the entrance to the graveyard at the revenant-like boss. When pulling these the boss gets pulled as well, this may be intentional though.

Not worth fixing, if you ask me.

4. Demon Heart material doesn't drop. Without the Demon Heart you may want to consider nerfing the Fire Boss (last boss) in d3?

I will fix that demon heart problem. The Fire Boss is fine, as it is optional. Several players reported killing it successfully, so I think the balancing is well done.

1. There is no orange item for thief and therefore no need for them to have mana crystals, even though these are possible to steal from the last boss in d3. It would be nice if you could add an orange item for thief class.

I will make sure to remember that when adding new content. Thanks.

2. Fire Shield for magician feels quite useless because of its low damage. May want to consider increasing that a bit.

Well, I think the fire shield is pretty fine as it is. It scales with spelldamage, after all. And it avoids armor, as it deals fire damage ... and I like the additional aggro it adds to the tank, if you ask me.

3. There isn't really an orange item for druids either. The orange bow is more suited for hunters and the Venomous Keep bow seems to be a better choice for druids. May want to consider adding an orange druid bow (or totem etc).

Of course, there will be new mana crystal-items with the new content. Don't worry about that.


For all those worried about possible future code wipes: At the current state, it will be unlikely. There are still enough "slots" for 2 new spells and a lot of new items left in the current code. Also I still have some quest slots left, so I don't think there will be a codewipe. However, I can not guarantee it by 100%. Just like ... 95% or so.


About the level of the dungeon:
It will be a direct continuation of Dungeon 3, so it will be higher than D3. You will need to "level" in D3, however, as there won't be an equivalent to the ogres.

The first boss of D4 will be around level 40 with the final Boss of D4 around level 45-50 ... depends on how large that dungeon will be.

 

[Kniff]

I remember another very annoying bug:

You cant heal a squire after finishing his clan change. You introduced a system that doesnt allow him being healed by a cleric during his class change. But that effect doesnt dissapear outside the arena. So the game must be remaked.

 

[cooI_Ilama]

Greetings,
I just need to mention something firstly.
What an exceptional map you have here, every inch of it is pure high quality
with exceptional choice of models and terraining. These are the sort of maps I will always play long after they have ceased to be developed since they are classics in their own right. For a moment you feel as if you are playing another game on its own not just a wc3 map...

I am really excited about the prospects of a 1.2, and as for suggestions with respect to new abilities or dungeons that is entirely up to your creativity.
As for bug reports besides the bash bug I have none other to think worth mentioning.

I just have an issue with the balancing. Currently the cleric-> monk/bishop are the class that can solo the most bosses and creeps. (d1, and d2 the protector and ancient one, all world bosses too)
Their role as a healer and dps due to judgement and curse means other dps classes can be omitted in all major fights.

So in terms of balance I suggest reducing the damage output of judgement and curse somewhat or replace one of them altogether so that the role of the actualy dps classes becomes important again. This would also make the less of a solo most boss class if their dmg output received a nerf.
This is all I can think of now, but I'll be sure to add other info I left out later on

Thank you.

Forgot to mention The Ancient One in d2 can be nuked from a safe distance by the magician's magic missile or a ranger while the rest of the team sit back and enjoy the fireworks.
I suggest decreasing the range of magic missile and the ranger's attack and fire arrow.
Thanks

 

[Kniff]

The bug with the people dropping outside dungeon2 during the cinematic is 100% there, I often done dungeon2 alone or with 1+2 people while other people done smth else and they always dropped.

 

[SmileyGhost]

As I've got 8 out of the 10 classes I thought I might as well give my opinion on the classes that exists. Some of the things I say here may have been said already.

Sorcerer
- A great class in my opinion. It deals great dps, but can't take too much damage which means that you need to think about what spell to use, who to use it on and when to use it so that you won't get aggro from the tank. You've made this class just the way I think a dps caster should be like.
- You know how I feel about the Fire Shield though. Apparently this spell causes aggro (didn't know this) in which case it doesn't seem entirely useless. Damage wise 0.1*spellpower is still too little in my opinion. With 100 spellpower (100sp = great gear) monsters would only take ~10 damage per hit, meaning ~150 hits to kill a monster in d3. Compare this to the Incinerate spell which does 0.5 * spellpower several times on the affected units.
Overall the Sorcerer is such an amazing class that I wouldn't be the least bothered even if you didn't change the Fire Shield spell.

Necromancer
(I don't have this char myself but i've seen people use it and used it myself with shared control.)
- Very underpowered. The skeletons just aren't good enough, even with skull-buffs. Low damage and health. They have decent armor but because of their health it's kind of useless anyway.
The Necromancer could definitely use a buff for its minions.

Bishop
- I'd say the bishop is the most powerful class in the entire game. Its healing is, of course, the best in the game. Not only that, the dps it can dish out is very good as well. Together with healing, dps and its shield it is the ultimate soloing class, being able to solo most things if it has good gear. As someone else pointed out, I'd consider nerfing the dps since the bishop (and the cleric class) should be more of a healing class and not so much dps.
- The healing part of the bishop is nicely done. Healing over time with Mend, regular cast-time healing, shield with weakened soul effect and ressurection are all examples of the good healing abilities which makes the bishop/cleric really feel like a healer-class.
- I really liked the Mend spell for the bishop. It really adds to the healing part of the class.

Monk
- I think the monk is a great class in most aspects. It really changes from the cleric as it truly becomes a tanking/dps class. It's much more suited for tanking one mob at a time whilst being bad at tanking multiple enemies (as this was intended, I see this as one of the well made parts about the monk).
- The monk is, much like the bishop, one of the few classes being able to do solo most things. When you have good gear on your monk, not only do you get a huge amount of armor, you also get a massive boost to the evasion. With lots of health + huge armor + great evasion + decent dps + shield and even healing (when deactivating steel body), I'd say this makes the monk a bit too overpowered. I am well aware that the healing and shield isn't as good as with the bishop (supposing that you've changed your stats), but I still consider the monk to be a little too good compared to other classes.

Druid
- When I first got my druid I thought I would hate the class, but I actually like it. It really feels like a dps/healing hybrid. Not great at dps and not great at healing either, but decent/ok at both. I feel like you've done a very good job with this class. It's possible that I feel this way only because I've got very good items on my druid. I'm not sure how the class is when you've only got lousy items. To me, this is a successful class as it can deal dps, even though a "true" dps class would do better and it can heal a bit, but would be better suited as supporting a bishop. The pet is also a little more useful (still quite bad though) with a druid as you can heal it more properly than with a hunter.

Hunter
- Compared to other dps classes I'd say the hunter is lacking in its abilities. The idea of a pet for the ranger class(es) is very good, but it's only useful at the beginning to mid part of the game. At high levels the pet is pretty much useless and is more likely to get in the way than being useful. Because of its low health it usually dies very quickly. It has ok armor, but with low health it doesn't help that much. The pet is also a little bit too low on damage as well in my opinion. This only applies to high level rangers though, as the pet is good and useful on lower levels.
I'd say the hunter generally needs to get buffed a little along with the pet on higher levels.

Assassin
- Much like the sorcerer I'd say you've done a superb job on this class. The ability to dish out a great amount of dps in a small amount of time with bladefury + backstab whilst relying on stealth a lot makes this class really feel like you are playing an assassin. If I had to say something bad about this class then it would be that Sweeping Blades spell doesn't feel that useful except when you are inside d3.
Again, this class is very well made in my opinion and you've done an awesome job.

Bard
Unlike the assassin, the bard isn't very good at all. It doesn't really feel like a upgrade from the thief. The dps is about the same, maybe even less if you use an instrument and the Song spell isn't that useful either. It helps, but it isn't that good. I'd say the best part of the bard would be that you can get a 7 % attack speed aura with an instrument which is ok and it helps a little, but it isn't that particularily good.
Bard is probably the class which needs to be buffed the most. Unlike all of the other classes, I don't really feel like I improved much after upgrading from thief to bard.

Crusader & Berserker
(I don't have a berserker myself but I've played with many berserkers and sometimes together with my crusader.)
Well, I like the crusader overall but I don't really feel like it's a much better tank than the berserker. Even though Crucify generates a lot of threat, the berserker spell does a lot of damage which seems to generate a comparable amount of threat as well as dealing more damage. Berserkers can also get slight aoe aggro from using 2-hand weapons. I guess my problem with crusader/berserker is that they feel too similar to each other and it doesn't really matter that much which one you upgrade to. The berserker can pretty much tank as well as the crusader while dealing more damage. I think a way to solve this would be by making berserkers unable to equip shields, make crusaders unable to equip 2-hand weapons, give crusaders more "high threat" skills whilst giving berserkers a reduced threat skill but with high damage.
This makes it sound like I dislike the tanking classes and I wanted to make clear to you that I don't dislike them at all. You've done a very good job with the tanking class, I just want something more to differentiate between the berserker and crusader.


A few more non-classes related things:
An idea I had would be to add a debuff spell to a caster class to be used against enemies? Right now enemies don't really have a lot of buffs on themselves but maybe this could change with d4.

Another thing I feel I should point out is that fire is by far the most common element used by other monsters and resistances to other elements only come in handy rarely. Also, there aren't any items to increase other resistances other than fire (unless you count the few +all resistances items to tanks). This may be intentional though.

I hope something in this post will help you and I'm sorry for making it so long.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

First of: thanks for all the feedback. Most things you have mentioned are really helpful. One thing about the 'utility' classes druid, bard and monk: As I said, it was really difficult for me to make them different from the initial base classes as - lets face it - ALL classes are only a little different than their base classes. It was simply not possible by just adding 1 spell. With 2 new spells coming up per class, I hope I can fix that problem. I think it will bring those underdog classes closer to the role they are intended to play.

One thing about the Bishop archetype, as this was mentioned alot before: I am planning to nerf judgement a little - possibly by increasing its cooldown to like 6 seconds. Still kind of hard, as I don't want the damage part of the bishop to be too weak compared to other spellcasters. I still want the player to have the option to DPS instead of heal.
In that regard, I really wished I could freely add stats to the classes, like wisdom, for example. Its very hard to balance out a healer/dps hybrid if both parts rely on the exact same stats.

A few more non-classes related things:
An idea I had would be to add a debuff spell to a caster class to be used against enemies? Right now enemies don't really have a lot of buffs on themselves but maybe this could change with d4.

I will remember that. Possibly the necromancer will get one, as it fits the mood of that character.

Another thing I feel I should point out is that fire is by far the most common element used by other monsters and resistances to other elements only come in handy rarely. Also, there aren't any items to increase other resistances other than fire (unless you count the few +all resistances items to tanks). This may be intentional though.

This is intentional ... the resistances were part of a concept that pointed towards much more content. End-game content, to be exact. As you all know, Gaias never hit the "end game" status in its developement, so resistances have never really mattered. They probably won't with D4 either, as D4, again, won't be level 50 content, although players will probably hit level 50 when completing it multiple times.

 

[InfernalTater]

I think it would be nice if there was a bit more decision-making for the abilities a player's hero will have. For example, the hunter might choose between a bear (higher hp and damage, slower ms and as) and the wolf. The necromancer might choose between skelly archers (ranged, more damage, less armor and health) or the skelly warriors. You get what I'm saying sorta? This is optional, of course, because it would change the game entirely. But I do think it would be pretty neat.
As for leveling, dungeon settings are not the ideal place to level up, as the creeps are five times stronger for their level. I do think you should at least add a very small area with decent leveled creeps where players could gain a bit of EXP. It wouldn't require quests, just a few creeps. A good place for this, in my opinion, would be that dead-end leading to another area, to the right of the large fort/camp/city.

 

[cooI_Ilama]

Agreed that the cleric class should have the option to dps, that certainly should remain.

Suggestions:
They may cast the shield on themselves, but the duration on the cleric class is reduced compared to if they used it on any other class? Not sure if that is too high a nerf on the clerics.

The ranger currently only has the first quiver "offhand" available at d2, while most classes can obtain theirs at mobs or d1. A weaker version of the quiver from d2 should be available from d1 or a non-dungeon one from mobs outside.

A possible buff that is useful to all classes to replace the strength buff currently available is a buff to increase hp for example. If scaled correctly it shouldn't be too OP and it would be very useful indeed.(Bard)

 

[Kl3sk]

I've got nothing to add since you've got enough suggestions to plow through right now, but there's one thing I've really got to say...

THANK YOU ZWIEBELCHEN for doing what the players and fans of this map / ORPG have been waiting for so long...Hats off to you sir! Now let's see what you've got cookin' :3

 

[SmileyGhost]

I just thought I'd add one more thing. I've seen people buying orange items for others by using shared control. In other words, you can buy things for other people by sharing control with them.

 

[Kniff]

I think that you need to be healing others most of the time anyway with a bishop (corresponding level for the certain dungeon) making spamming judgement impossible and the damage over time spell fits perfectly to his healing spells since it musnt be channeled. As you play from beginning 5 * lvl 1 and do dungeon1 at around lvl 7 u also wil be needed to healing instead of dmging.

As for the ancient one it would be nice to just increase its range, this way it cant be outranged. Also the tentacles will never atatck or channel judgement if you dont stay near them and/or dont attack them. All in all this boss is too easy. I also recognized that the ancient one atatcks his own tentacles if you stay near them, does it have splash attack?

Further I would like to see a book model for the cleric since its the only class of the main classes which doesnt have a visible misc item (book), as thief has offhand dagger, squire a shield, magican a gem and ranger a pet (ok quiver at his back is always the same). This would propably make him not look so naked and weak.

I also think that crusader/berserker deal to much dmg compared to ranger/thief. Especially against heavy armored creeps, and actually all creeps/dungeon mobs and bosses have a high armor gaining per lvl. I would suggest to introduce some creeps with less armor but more hitpoints or giving hunter/thief more penetration. We tested that on some dungeon bosses. The bosses always attacked the tank even if he didnt use spells or didnt have his aura activated unless some times magican or the healer.

 

[SmileyGhost]

I think that you need to be healing others most of the time anyway with a bishop (corresponding level for the certain dungeon) making spamming judgement impossible and the damage over time spell fits perfectly to his healing spells since it musnt be channeled.

The problem is that the bishop can do anything while other classes can only fulfill one role. As you say, someone needs to heal and the only one being able to do that properly is the bishop. My point is that you could just as well exchange all of the dps classes with clerics/bishops so you've got 4 clerics/bishops and 1 tank. You would still get great dps and extremely good survivability. The only thing the cleric/bishop lacks is aoe dps, otherwise you really could just exchange every dps class with bishops and still beat d3 (maybe 2 tanks for lady boss, but you get the idea).

The bosses always attacked the tank even if he didnt use spells or didnt have his aura activated unless some times magican or the healer.

I'm guessing you tried this at a low lvl? I find it hard to believe that high levels couldn't get aggro from the tank even though he doesn't use aura or skills. I think your point that the tank does too much dps is very valid though. A tank shouldn't be able to do more damage than a dps class.

 

[InfernalTater]

The problem is that the bishop can do anything while other classes can only fulfill one role. As you say, someone needs to heal and the only one being able to do that properly is the bishop. My point is that you could just as well exchange all of the dps classes with clerics/bishops so you've got 4 clerics/bishops and 1 tank. You would still get great dps and extremely good survivability. The only thing the cleric/bishop lacks is aoe dps, otherwise you really could just exchange every dps class with bishops and still beat d3 (maybe 2 tanks for lady boss, but you get the idea).

You're forgetting about the Druid; the pet can help take hits by leaving some creeps to attack it, while only the one your hero targets attacks you. And then you can also heal. You are also forgetting that anyone can stack up on potions to have a slight amount of healing in emergencies. One single person using potions won't be fast enough, but 5 people all using potions and mending each other can add up to a decent amount of healing. This would result in a bit less healing, but a bit more dps. Of course, the best combination would be a mix of various classes.

 

[SmileyGhost]

You're forgetting about the Druid; the pet can help take hits by leaving some creeps to attack it, while only the one your hero targets attacks you. And then you can also heal. You are also forgetting that anyone can stack up on potions to have a slight amount of healing in emergencies. One single person using potions won't be fast enough, but 5 people all using potions and mending each other can add up to a decent amount of healing. This would result in a bit less healing, but a bit more dps. Of course, the best combination would be a mix of various classes.

Of course there are hybrid classes. I didn't forget about them, I simply don't consider them to be able to completely fill the role of the non-hybrid class. Let's take the druid for example. The pet can tank, but only very little as it'll take a lot of damage and it doesn't have that much health. The druid can heal, but only slightly and not enough to fill the role of a bishop. It can also deal dps, but much less than other dps classes and less than a bishop as well.
It's true that you can use potions to heal yourselves but it's not the type of healing you can rely on. The potions heal quite little in comparison to what a healing class can heal and it has a long cooldown and, as you said, they are best used for emergencies.

About this part:

Of course, the best combination would be a mix of various classes.

Is this really true though? Do I really need a hunter, assassin, bard, monk, druid, necromancer etc when you can just use a team of tank, bishops and possibly a sorc for aoe damage? I argue that the bishop has such good dps that it can fill the roles of other dps classes (again, it only lacks aoe dps in this aspect). You could have one tank, four bishops (one main healer and the rest just mend/shield, possibly one that switches between emergency healing and dps), the only thing missing in this group is aoe damage and maybe a second tank for lady boss if you're trying to do that one.
Why would I use my hunter or assassin when I can use a class that has comparable dps + instant HoT + instant DoT + shield and burst of light for emergencies?
Ever had two bishops in one group? You're pretty much unkillable as long as you have a decent tank.

 

[Adiktuz]

well, it always depends on the players... so far the idea you presented is for those who want to make their gameplay easy... ofc there would be those who want extra challenge, so they would most probably use a party with characters from several classes... ^_^

but maybe if one class becomes too much powerful than the others, you should balance it...

and its nice to see this project get back alive... ^_^

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Please don't get sidetracked on a balance-discussion. It's not worth the breath, as I am going to add new spells anyway, which will have an impact on the balancing.


So far, these are the things I've planned (note that only one of those spells will be available at vendors [for gold and mana crystals], whereas the other one will be a drop-only in the upcoming D4):


general changes to gameplay:
- Cooldown of mana-potions will be increased
- Bash bug will be fixed
- improvements to ranger and necromancer pets
- you will not regenerate mana during spellcasting/channeling anymore


Bishop:
vendor) Plane Shift - The Bishop turns partially invisible for the next 4 seconds, removing all threat generated. The bishop can not move, cast or attack during that duration. CD: 90 seconds.
drop only) not decided yet

Monk:
vendor) Divine Fist - Every successful melee-hit by the monk dealt on the debuffed target during the next 2 seconds increases elemental damage dealt by the monk by 5%. Stacks up to 10 times. Every hit resets the 2 second timer. If it reaches 10 stacks, the target will be hit by a burst of a random element, stunning it for 2 seconds and dealing massive damage. CD: 25 seconds
drop only) Stone Skin - All damage taken by the monk will be halfed for rage*0,1 seconds. CD: 60 seconds; consumes rage.

Berserker:
vendor) not decided yet
drop only) not decided yet

Crusader:
vendor) Walking Fortress - (Passive) increases the amount of armor gained by your shield by 30%, increases evasion by 5%, increases shield bash damage by 50%
drop only) Celestrial Thorns - 10% of all ordinary melee damage dealt to the Crusader is reflected back at the target as holy damage. Damage caused by this reflection effect can not be reflected again and generates twice the amount of threat.


Hunter:
vendor) Beast Fury - Your servant deals damage equal to x*armor(enemy)*attackpower(owner) and stuns the target for 1 second. CD: 40 seconds
drop only) Beastial Rage - (Passive) Your servant gains 35% resistance against all elements, Every successful melee hit by the servant increases rage of the owner by 1. Your servant gains 1 additional attack power per level.

Druid:
vendor) Nymph's Call - Summons a spirit to your aid that lasts for 30 seconds. The spirit will heal wounded allies around it with small direct heals. CD: 35 seconds
drop only) Efreet's Call - Summons a spirit to your aid that lasts for 30 seconds. The spirit will throw fireballs at the selected target of the spell. Those fireballs will not cause threat for the druid. If the target dies, the Efreet will return to its home-plane. CD: 35 seconds

Assassin:
vendor) Into The Shades - Allows the assassin to enter stealth mode during combat. Threat will be removed during stealth, but will be applied again after leaving stealth. CD: 25 seconds
drop only) not decided yet

Bard:
vendor) Song of Truth - Increases all elemental damage dealt by 15%, including weapon proccs and all other sources of elemental damage. Only one song can be active per target.
drop only) Song of Youth - Increases healing received by 20%. Only one song can be active per target.

Sorcerer:
vendor) Spell Trap - The next source of elemental damage to the caster is negated and thrown back onto the damage source. Reflected damage can not be reflected again. CD: 45 seconds
drop only) Meteor Strike - The target is hit by a meteor, stunning it for 3 seconds, dealing massive AoE fire and physical damage. Consumes rage. CD: 120 seconds.

Necromancer:
vendor) Summon Skeleton Mage - summons a skeletal mage to your assistance that throws shadowbolts at the minion target.
drop only) Sacrifice - Destroys one of your skeletons to replenish a percentage of mana. Consumes rage. CD: 75 seconds.

 

[SmileyGhost]

Looks awesome so far. I just have a few questions.

Druid:
vendor) Nymph's Call - Summons a spirit to your aid that lasts for 30 seconds. The spirit will heal wounded allies around it with small direct heals. CD: 35 seconds
drop only) Efreet's Call - Summons a spirit to your aid that lasts for 30 seconds. The spirit will throw fireballs at the selected target of the spell. Those fireballs will not cause threat for the druid. If the target dies, the Efreet will return to its home-plane. CD: 35 seconds

Can these summons be attacked by enemies or are they invulnerable?

drop only) Meteor Strike - The target is hit by a meteor, stunning it for 3 seconds, dealing massive AoE fire and physical damage. Consumes rage. CD: 120 seconds.

If this is going to be much better than the lightning strike. Is there any point in using that spell anymore?

vendor) Spell Trap - The next source of elemental damage to the caster is negated and thrown back onto the damage source. Reflected damage can not be reflected again. CD: 45 seconds

How will this work against aoe spells like the skeletal mages Lightning Strike in d3? Will it get reflected only if its main target is the one with Spell Trap or if it damages the sorcerer with the aoe as well or... ?

Assassin:
vendor) Into The Shades - Allows the assassin to enter stealth mode during combat. Threat will be removed during stealth, but will be applied again after leaving stealth. CD: 25 seconds

Just to clarify... Hypothetically if you have five assassin's attacking a boss and suddenly all assassin's use "Into the Shades" at the same time, will the health of the boss be reset? If it isn't, there might be a problem that people could: Break stealth, damage, Into the Shades, wait ~25 seconds and repeat.

 

[InfernalTater]

drop only) Meteor Strike - The target is hit by a meteor, stunning it for 3 seconds, dealing massive AoE fire and physical damage. Consumes rage. CD: 120 seconds.

If this is going to be much better than the lightning strike. Is there any point in using that spell anymore?

You obviously didn't pay attention to: CD: 120 seconds. You'll still be casting other spells while you wait for the massive cooldown...

vendor) Spell Trap - The next source of elemental damage to the caster is negated and thrown back onto the damage source. Reflected damage can not be reflected again. CD: 45 seconds

How will this work against aoe spells like the skeletal mages Lightning Strike in d3? Will it get reflected only if its main target is the one with Spell Trap or if it damages the sorcerer with the aoe as well or... ?

Since this uses a damage detection system, it would most likely react to when you take the damage, regardless of the original target.

Assassin:
vendor) Into The Shades - Allows the assassin to enter stealth mode during combat. Threat will be removed during stealth, but will be applied again after leaving stealth. CD: 25 seconds

Just to clarify... Hypothetically if you have five assassin's attacking a boss and suddenly all assassin's use "Into the Shades" at the same time, will the health of the boss be reset? If it isn't, there might be a problem that people could: Break stealth, damage, Into the Shades, wait ~25 seconds and repeat.

Since you lose threat when entering this form, and bosses reset when there is no threat, the only way to keep them from resetting is to have at least one person who is still threatening the boss; if all five assassins are stealthed, nobody is threatening the boss, and so it would obviously reset.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Looks awesome so far. I just have a few questions.


Can these summons be attacked by enemies or are they invulnerable?

They will be vulnerable, of course and will also be considered ordinary minions by the threat system, to avoid exploiting.

If this is going to be much better than the lightning strike. Is there any point in using that spell anymore?

Lightning strike will - of course - be superior in damage and AoE radius. As you can use both spells (as long as you have enough rage), that shouldn't be a problem balance-wise. And remember that mobs have resistances, so there might be situations where one of the two spells isn't an option. It's the same with fireball and water globe. Both spells are 'equal', but they have different elements to have the option to switch to another element just in case.

How will this work against aoe spells like the skeletal mages Lightning Strike in d3? Will it get reflected only if its main target is the one with Spell Trap or if it damages the sorcerer with the aoe as well or... ?

The damage will be reflected, no matter which type of spell it is. However, it doesn't protect other people's damage taken. You only reflect the damage that hits the sorcerer directly.

Just to clarify... Hypothetically if you have five assassin's attacking a boss and suddenly all assassin's use "Into the Shades" at the same time, will the health of the boss be reset? If it isn't, there might be a problem that people could: Break stealth, damage, Into the Shades, wait ~25 seconds and repeat.

Of course, if all combat participants restealth, then the mob resets.

 

[cooI_Ilama]

All these new spells sound great, really excited to see them implemented ;].
Oh yes, they will make balancing even more of a challenge... any how.

Another possible suggestion with respect to potions, there are only minor hp/mp potions available at the moment for use.
Suggestion: possibly add a new variety that heal larger amounts but also have a larger cooldown?

Maybe even add potions that add buffs for a certain duration, such as a potion for increased spellpower or attackpower, or dodge perhaps.
It would certainly add more dimension to the gameplay, although I'm not sure with the current inventory system if this would be possible to implement.
Either way I think it would be a nice new addition ^^

 

[InfernalTater]

What you mean is elixirs, a rip off from TKoK. It doesn't matter what inventory system is used, that doesn't change how potions work, so I don't see why this would be an issue. You probably don't know anything about making maps, which makes it difficult for you to properly advise on making one. Yes, elixirs would work, it doesn't matter what inventory system a map uses. The issue is whether or not that is a good idea.

 

[S0ulseeker]

First of all I would just like to say how excited I am to hear that there will be a v1.2 of Gaias Retaliation. As you may recall I was a fairly active member of the community in the past in the development of this game and I will try to do so for this version as well.

A few suggestions/idea/questions:

•Does the news of a v1.2 mean that you will finally add creeps to the sewers of the Capital or are you going to leave it empty? If I recall there wasn't anything down there and it would require little to none terraining on your part to add mobs in their for higher leveling or questing. It could technically act as another zone with relatively little time on your part (just remember that level 25's need to go down their for their class training so the zone would need to be tailored to that, or at least the pathing to the part for their quest. Other parts of the sewers could be higher leveled mobs). I just remember that the sewers were so amazing looking and vastly huge, but there was so little to do down there it would almost be a waste to have it go unused.

•As I've mentioned numerous times in the past but it wasn't very high on the Gaias priority, could this extra time being used to work on v1.2 be used to revamp the PVP system? The last PVP system seemed fairly rushed and it could be abused to kill people in dungeons etc. One possible solution/suggestion to this would be to incorporate some kind of dueling system in the arena where the Squire does his challenges at. You could have players enter it to duel 1v1 or join in 'parties' to fight a boss or high challenged PVP veteran or something. It would add a lot of re-playability to the map to be able to fight in groups vs. these mobs in the arena for fun or just to fight each other in an adiquate arena setting.

•This is not a very crucial bug, but if you go to unlearn abilities you can only choose to unlearn active abilities not passive.

That is all I can recall on such short notice of reading this status. I for one am going to play through Gaias again and if I come across anything else I will let you know of any bugs or changes I come across.

Best of luck with the map! I have the most confidence that whatever you end up doing with v1.2 will be an amazing contribution to the map. I really like the idea of the floating jungle island themed d4.

EDIT: I dug up one of my old posts about the arena suggesting. This is what I said about it in the past. Apparently by adding the high gold cost of it I was also suggesting a money sink as well as a re-playability factor which I think is always a good idea. It would keep people spending gold on a regular basis and giving them purpose to get more gold.

I was just curious if you think it would be possible, a good idea, or if you had the time to implement a command where you can talk to someone outside of the squires arena thing for class change that allowed you to enter the arena for a high price (like 5,000 gold) and fight off waves of monsters with maybe like 1-2 bosses scattered across the 'levels' you'd fight off. You would have to buy potions or w/e prior to going in and would have to see how long you could live for if you can beat all the waves. Possibly add rewards for completing it like get some arena gear or something that is slightly better for pvp. I think this could significantly add replay value to map and would implement some type of money sink into the game for those who grind a lot of gold.

A potential way to do this if you didn't want to occupy that arena is just copy the arena terrain 100% like 5-6 times but make the arena entrance at the same location so it will still be technically the same 'arena' for all characters but it would allow multiple people to do it at one time and still allow squires to do their quest. or you can just use the same arena with some kind of waiting feature if someone is already in it and wouldn't require any terraining just scripting and triggering.

Let me know what you guys think of the idea :]

EDIT: as for the bosses idea, you could even theoretically recycle old bosses like the first boss you'd fight could be the big bad wolf or something, but with no drops

 

[cooI_Ilama]

lol @ random hostiliy..
It was just an idea, so be it if they're used in another map, whatever name they're called...
I meant that with the current inventory, the 6th slot is used for hp/mp pots, so you couldn't apply the "elixir" unless the backpack is made to hold one.
Thats all I meant, I'm not advising on how to make a map^^, so take a chill pill.

 

[Kniff]

Another major bug is the lightning use of the skeleton mages. If 2 of them use it same time= crictial error. I suggest remove the lightning spell from them or change/fix it.

It wont make a diffrent anyway since they cast lightning strike anyway right after freezing a unit, this way the unit wont get dmged in the first second (its invulnerable).

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Another major bug is the lightning use of the skeleton mages. If 2 of them use it same time= crictial error. I suggest remove the lightning spell from them or change/fix it.

It wont make a diffrent anyway since they cast lightning strike anyway right after freezing a unit, this way the unit wont get dmged in the first second (its invulnerable).

Are you sure about that? I'm not quite sure why the game should critical error just because two enemies are using that spell. Can someone confirm this?
To be honest, I always hated lightning strike. It's one of only two spells I didn't trigger myself. And the code just plain sucks. If you want to have something done right, you better do it yourself :/

I'm still taking suggestions on that "not decided yet" skills! Especially for the two squire archetypes I'm pretty out of ideas what could be cool. I can't start the spellcoding without having a full list of spells "to do", as I always write spells in the order of the class IDs (don't ask why ... just a weird attitude of mine).

About the PvP issue and the arena suggestions: To be honest, I don't feel like it is worth investing time into that. Most of the people don't really play Gaias anymore after they have finished D3 and got their gear... also, PVP in Gaias will never ever be balanced, no matter what I do. I simply can not have enough designing options to balance out both PVP and PVE, as I like the idea of having "specialists". All the spells I wrote until now are pure PvE spells, if you ask me ... and it will probably stay like that.
Maybe I will add some more tweaks to the existing pvp command, like rendering the unit incombat for 10 seconds after hitting another player, so that for example thieves can not restealth every time the cooldown is ready.

 

[S0ulseeker]

Well one skill suggestion I have for the squires archetypes is potentially a 'charge' type skill that could either give a very small stun upon use, but can only be used a certain distance away from an enemy, or have it cause a lot of threat upon entry.

Maybe a 'whirlwind' type skill for the berseker requiring a two-handed weapon to use?

Or maybe like a 'mighty sweep' type strike for the berserker with his two-hander where he swings upward really hard and it flys the enemy into the air backwards for high damage

Those are a few fairly generic Warrior type skills that most RPG's aquire.

 

[SmileyGhost]

For the berserker:

A type of finishing move that deals more damage the less hp the enemy has left (in procentage would probably be best). Could be called something like: "Decapitator" or "Execution" for a finishing move-type of sound.

The other spell could be similar to the Crusader's first passive but with more berserker-ish values. This could be something like: X% more weapon damage, X% higher crit chance/crit damage, X% attackspeed etc.

I don't want to suggest aoe spells for the berserker, because I think that would give it a better edge at aoe tanking than the crusader.

 

[S0ulseeker]

For the berserker:
I don't want to suggest aoe spells for the berserker, because I think that would give it a better edge at aoe tanking than the crusader.

That's a very good point I agree with that he can already cleave with 2-handers

 

[SmileyGhost]

I've got a few other ideas for the other undecided classes.

The bishop could possibly get something similar to WoW's shadow priest or a bishop-version of the monk's steel body spell. This spell could enable much better dps at the cost of being unable to use healing spells (or however you want to design it). I figured this could be used as an option for those who want to be able to deal better dps with their bishop instead of focus on healing.

The assassin could get a skill to lay a damaging trap, being able to poison the target (doesn't have to be a damaging poison, it could cause debuffs instead) or maybe a smokescreen to decrease the enemies accuracy a bit.

 

[S0ulseeker]

A suggestion, I love the way the system works right now where players die and can be revived by a cleric within 60 seconds but sometimes people are leveling by themselves and when they die they have to wait a minute to res, which isn't that big of a problem but without a cleric to res it gets kind of annoying having to constantly wait. Perhaps add a feature on the grave stones that people could click to choose to 'res now' instead of waiting for the 60 seconds to res but for the fee of convenience of ressing instantly they should lose more gold than waiting the 60 seconds and losing gold. I would also suggest disabling the instant res feature in dungeons to avoid dieing and running back to bosses in mid fight and exploiting the feature.

 

[cooI_Ilama]

I can confirm that the fatal occurs at that time (not always but it happens), where just below the firelord's area where if the two skeletal mages cast the freeze and lightning spell simultaneously, it may result in a fatal error. I've seen it happen at least 7 times out of like 50 d3 runs I've done before.

Suggestions: "Mounting Anger" -For each successful hit on the berserker, results in an increase in his damage. After being hit X times he releases all the damage he had accumulated in one strike. (i.e if each hit results in + 1 dmg, on the X'th hit he deals X+X dmg).
Some kind of fancy animation can be displayed on him as these buffs accumulate on him.

"Holy Shield"- imbues the Crusader's shield with a glowing animation or something whereby there is a chance to counter each hit from an enemy with a divine damage bolt that fires in the direction the crusader is facing.

 

[S0ulseeker]

If everyone in the party steps in this spot in D3 the dungeon resets. I think it counts as 'being out of the dungeon' the same as if people would all leave the dungeon and have it reset. I did it in single player right now with a cheat code enabled to show you the spot, but I've done it in a multiplayer game as well.

http://imageshack.us/f/32/resetbug.png/

 

[Kniff]

There are also some minor visible bugs with the items. As for druids head guard and bandana of the sun lord they seem not to be visible if you wear them.

 

[InfernalTater]

"Mounting Anger" -For each successful hit on the berserker, results in an increase in his damage. After being hit X times he releases all the damage he had accumulated in one strike. (i.e if each hit results in + 1 dmg, on the X'th hit he deals X+X dmg).
Some kind of fancy animation can be displayed on him as these buffs accumulate on him.

Divine Fist - Every successful melee-hit by the monk dealt on the debuffed target during the next 2 seconds increases elemental damage dealt by the monk by 5%. Stacks up to 10 times. Every hit resets the 2 second timer. If it reaches 10 stacks, the target will be hit by a burst of a random element, stunning it for 2 seconds and dealing massive damage. CD: 25 seconds

Sorry, cooI_Ilama, but your idea seems somewhat too similar to the ability Zwiebelchen is already using for the Monk... Just seems too similar to me, anyway, we'll see if Zwieb likes it.

Back to the topic, I'll try to think of some possibly abilities for the Berserker. I'll just spit out a bunch of ideas for you to choose from, to seperate the slightly not-bad ideas I think of from the crappy ideas I also think of.

Cleave: Using his two-handed weapon, the berserker slashes in a semi-circle, dealing damage based on strength to units within the arc of attack.

Berserk: The Berserker goes into a rage, attacking 30% faster for 5 seconds. Every successful hit during this period increases the duration by 0.5 seconds.
This can actually last for a decent amount of time; with an increased attack speed, the berserker could be attacking slightly more than once each second, allowing him to gain up to 3 seconds more time during the 5-second duration, and then gaining up to 2 seconds or so during the 3-second duration, and then an additional 1 seconds during the 1-second duration, and, finally, 0.5 seconds during the 1 second, allowing, if the berserker is uninterrupted throughout the entire rage, the berserker will be berserk for a total of around 11.5 seconds. The actual duration and % attack speed bonus would be up to you, this was just an idea.

By the way, if you want more quiver models for having quiver items for the archer, feel free to ask me; I've made three quiver models, one of which is uploaded with both team-colored and non-team-colored versions.

 

[cooI_Ilama]

Fair enough, I suppose so...
It can be modified such as each successful attack you land for example.

Perhaps instead, something involving the trophies the berserker uses, since he loses his ability to shield bash when he equips the 2-handed weapons.
For example: there is a chance to swing his trophy at an adjacent unit he is currently attacking, dealing some sort of damage and maybe stunning it. (If there are no adjacent units he does deals the damage to unit he is attacking).

 

[noob1011990]

This map, Dun 3 is so hard , with 3 players, u can't finish, althought, they 're lv33+ with good Items, no class can tank in Dun 3, i don't know how to use monk, type armor :cloth, 50% evasion not work well, damage is so bad, skill rage is weak because intelligent stats low, most importantly, no one can heal him ( and him too , no tank without healing

 

[Kniff]

@ soulseeker: how u reset the dungeon if u dont click at the circle and then the button?

 

[Adiktuz]

This map, Dun 3 is so hard , with 3 players, u can't finish, althought, they 're lv33+ with good Items, no class can tank in Dun 3, i don't know how to use monk, type armor :cloth, 50% evasion not work well, damage is so bad, skill rage is weak because intelligent stats low, most importantly, no one can heal him ( and him too , no tank without healing

its clearly a problem on the players, not the map...

Its a surprise that you had enough motivation to get monk to lvl 30+ when you seem to hate it...

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Thank you for all your suggestions and bug reports. Remember that I will not fix minor bugs, if it requires too much of code changing to fix. But I will fix the "out of dungeon" exploit in D3, as it only requires one click to do that.

About the Lightning Strike bug ... I will probably replace that spell sooner or later by something similar. The total coding on that spell is utter bullshit, as I said already.

Remember that this update will take a while ...
All the things we have planned sum up to like 20(+1, if you count lightning strike) new spells, 4 new bosses (each with like 3 or 4 abilities) and an entire new dungeon terain.
Don't expect this to be done in less than 3 or 4 months.

I do sometimes create like 4 or 5 spells on a good day, but then again, its summer and I dont intend to code the whole time. And terraining needs much much more time than anything else.

 

[S0ulseeker]

@ soulseeker: how u reset the dungeon if u dont click at the circle and then the button?

After you finish killing all the bosses of a dungeon and all the party members step out of the dungeon it resets by itself which has always been the case, however if you step in that spot of the dungeon which is inside the dungeon itself after the bosses are killed it resets.

 

[ryusora]

Hi!

I havent read all posts but i read most of them.

1 - Over allbalance (its already been pointed)
2 - bug where u run and got bashed (purple imba dmg form mob! ALREADY BEEN POINTED)
3 - POTIONS - There is a poiton that says it helas x but heals y (sorry i forgot)
4 - POTIONS - Make some good mpotions like 400 healing and a good cooldown (10 secs IMO)

 

[Zwiebelchen]

Hi!

I havent read all posts but i read most of them.

1 - Over allbalance (its already been pointed)
2 - bug where u run and got bashed (purple imba dmg form mob! ALREADY BEEN POINTED)
3 - POTIONS - There is a poiton that says it helas x but heals y (sorry i forgot)
4 - POTIONS - Make some good mpotions like 400 healing and a good cooldown (10 secs IMO)

This is how to not make suggestions.

 

[InfernalTater]

>.<
Firstly, just as Zwieb said, secondly, 400 heal 10 cd? Are you trying to put bishops out of business? If you have 5 people using potions like that, they're healing 400 every 2 seconds.

 

[ryusora]

Sorry, almost subjects that i wanted to say already been said.

And the potions, real need buff... it was just a suggestion...

 

[Kniff]

Zwiebel, there is a room and a tower in the map which aint used, did you only test there something or was it planned to used them but they never got?