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Existence of God

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hakeem, Sep 14, 2007.

?

See below.

  1. Yes, and I can prove it with logic.

    15 vote(s)
    17.4%
  2. Yes, but I only believe. I can't prove it.

    18 vote(s)
    20.9%
  3. I will remain unaffiliated until proof is given. (No.)

    22 vote(s)
    25.6%
  4. No, it's just an invention.

    31 vote(s)
    36.0%
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  1. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    This thread's got but a few posts to provide proof of god's existence until it is closed. Good riddance, I must say.

    Elementary, Watson! It was a pun!
    omfg that picture is awesome.
     
  2. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

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    Official catholic doctrine (paraphrased): when you die, you meet god. then YOU decide whether you want to be with him or not.

    if you dont, you get to watch everybody that did want to be with god have an awesome time for eternity.

    hell is watching everybody in heaven have an unending party, only everything at the party is perfect.

    if you do choose to be with god you go to purgatory for a while, are cleansed of your sins, and go to heaven.

    important:anyone can choose the god option. anyone. it doesn't matter if you've been a atheist all your life, if your reaction to seeing that god is real is something like "awesome, there is a god!", you go to purgatory for a while and get to heaven. everyone but martyrs goes to purgatory.


    /end official catholic doctrine

    personally, i belive that you can get out of hell, that you'd realize that you do want to be with god, even if it happens after 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. but that's just me.



    as for proof of god's existence, in about 1917 there was the whole fatima thing. during this god made the sun move around.(bouncing, moving around the sky in ways other than a line...) newspapers hundreds of miles away reported that it had. there were 60,000+ witnesses. if that doesn't convince you, nothing will, except maybe meeting god when you die.:wink:
     
  3. WILL THE ALMIGHTY

    WILL THE ALMIGHTY

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    That's just stupid. People in 1917 could easily be fooled, so the fact this was posted in loads of newspapers is no proof.
     
  4. Redeemer59

    Redeemer59

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    I lol'd pretty hard.
     
  5. Elenai

    Elenai

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    @Kjiverx.......That doctrine doesnt seem to be Biblically sound my friend. The Bible (the various books that make up the Bible) has no reference to purgotory, and if people chose God when they die and go to purgotory...then what was the Sacrifice of Christ for?

    "Salvation is through grace alone, and Salvation is through Christ, whom you accept while alive."

    Now then......God's existence is all too real....For those who have experienced him, it is unquestionable. To those who have not....they must seek him themselves, and see if they come to believe it.

    An example of this would be the holy martyr Polycarp, the last disciple who studied under one of the direct apostles, (John). He was taken to the arena in Smyrna (modern Izmar Turkey). There he was threatened with fire and beasts, and was told to curse Christ and recant him. Polycarp said that he had served Christ for eighty seven years, and not once did Christ wrong him, and he told them to bring on the fire and beasts. His tormentors lit the flame and instead of burning he seemed as gold. And so a soldier had to kill him with a sword because the fire failed to kill him.

    That is the kind of faith that makes God's existence unquestionable to those who have experienced him.
     
  6. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    I did too. I thought he was joking for a sec.
     
  7. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    Maybe it's because I'm not anchored by bias, but I didn't notice Cheeder say or imply that circular logic was good for debate.
     
  8. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    But you did notice he said circular logic proves itself, right? Good, so let me fill you in.

    Argument B is used as proof for Argument A, which, in turn, is used as proof for Argument B. Because both arguments are unstable, they are invalid as proof, and therefore, nothing is proven.
     
  9. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    You mean this?
    Perhaps you should check with Wikipedia:
     
  10. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    No, I mean the other time he introduced circular logic into the debate.
    If logic is "the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference," and circular logic is "logically valid," then one could conclude that when two facts rely on each other's truthfulness to be true, there is no logical counterexample. Yeah, I guess that works, because the only way to prove otherwise is to produce material counterexamples.
     
  11. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

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    christ died to let us go to purgatory. and the bible also has almost no reference to the holy spirit. does that make the holy spirit unreal? I don't mean that the holy spirit is necessarily real: i'm not a missionary. believe wat you want. but no one can deny that religion, almost all of it, has produced some impressive things. look into some of the more recent martyrs sometime. But like everything else it's also produced some idiocy-look at pacifism. pacifism is about as stupid as things get.

    the bible is seriously filled with lots of irrelevant bullshit. there are other sources of revelation. like the pope, in some circumstances (the pope isn't always officially infallible. certain conditions must be met.)find someone with a bible, and read 1 kings 7. it basically says that pi=3. as everyone should know, that is not what pi equals.

    essentially what i'm trying to say is that you cannot prove god. believe whatevr you want.but the futility of proving god's existence doesn't mean it isn't fun to argue about it.:grin:

    @Elenai: and you know this happened because? of faith in god. you can't use faith to prove something.
    notice how the sword still killed him anyway...
     
  12. Cheeder

    Cheeder

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    Ok, it may not ALWAYS prove itself, i was quick to say so, but it is, undoubtedly, unpenetrable by further human logic and reasoning; it becomes or EXISTS as sound logic. It simply is what it is and exists as so, just as my example exists;
    "I know nothing"

    "Well do you know you know nothing?"
    "I don't know if i know nothing"
    Thus validating the claim, "I know nothing".

    This is how i proved the given example of the "treasure chest" to be perfectly sound.

    That example is not a matter of proof. Inded nothing is proven or disproven, but 'to prove' is not of any relevance. It's not a matter of proving person A's word to be true, that there really exists a treasure chest, rather it is a matter of whether the exchange in communication is logically sound.

    I can relate the treasure-chest example to the movie Donnie Darko. The director left out information AT THE END, which would be the more logical time-place to have it, which would help people dissolve their confusion over the movie. Same goes for the example. We don't know if they continued to question each other like illogical, brainless idiots, or whether person B wet to go check if it was really there in the backyard, or if they simply dropped the whole issue altogether. Until such information comes to light, any opinion on the matter is useless because there's no base for a substantial argument. No one can say it exists or does not exist.

    That being the case, the data-exchange is what it is and cannot even be illogical. What WOULD be illogical, again, is if the exchange were to continue, denying any action on the part of he or she who cares to validate the claim (ie person B).

    What IS invalid as proof is not the "arguments", or the exchange of word themselves, but rather inaction.
    INACTION is invalid as proof. Person B makes no attempt to validate person A's claims in the reality, but rather, my guess, assumes he can know the truth through questioning. Do you remember what i said about the ghost-hunter? By simply questioning a past-resident of the area of the supposed haunting does not validate or invalidate the claims of the supposed hauntings, and therefore any opinion by the "investigator", who never went to do any actual investigating, is worthless.
    The fact that inaction is the model cannot make the situation illogical.

    My whole point is, the situation is logical, it, being an example of circular logic is not.
     
  13. Elenai

    Elenai

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    I was using Polycarp as an example of why Christians who have experienced God find the question of his (non) existence laughable.

    pi = 3.14..........a bunch of numbers. Its close enough to 3 for my taste.

    And as for the Holy Spirit....Here is a list of references to it found in the Bible.

    The Holy Spirit mentioned on equal level with God
    Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
    2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
    Eph. 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."
    2 Cor. 3:16-18, "but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."
    Names of the Holy Spirit
    Spirit of God
    Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." See also Gen. 1:2
    Spirit of Christ
    Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
    Spirit of your Father
    Matt. 10:10, "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."
    The Spirit of Truth
    John 14:17, "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." See also, John 15:26.
    The Spirit of the Lord
    Acts 8:39, "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing." See also Judges 15:14; 1 Sam. 16:12
    The Holy Spirit is referred to as a person by scripture
    Who
    Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
    John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
    1 John 5:7, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
    See also 1 Cor. 2:12; 2 Tim. 1:14;
    He
    John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
    Himself
    Rom. 8:16, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"
    Rom. 8:26, "And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words"
    Personhood of the Holy Spirit (has emotions, is aware, speaks, knows, etc.)
    Grieves
    Isaiah 63:10, "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them."
    Eph. 4:30, "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
    Loves
    Rom. 15:30, "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me."
    Has a mind
    Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
    Speaks
    2 Sam. 23:1, "The Spirit of the LORD spoke through me; his word was on my tongue."
    Acts 8:29, "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
    Acts 10:19, "And while Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you."
    Acts 11:12, "And the Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. And these six brethren also went with me, and we entered the man’s house."
    Acts 13:2, "And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
    Acts 21:11, "And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’"
    Acts 28:25, "And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers, 26saying, ‘Go to this people and say, "You will keep on hearing, but will not understand."
    1 Tim. 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,"
    Heb. 3:7-8, "Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today if you hear His voice, 8Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me, as in the day of trial in the wilderness,"
    Rev. 2:7, "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God." See also Rev. 2:11,17,29; 3:6,13,22.
    Rev. 14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
    Rev. 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost."
    Knows
    1 Cor. 2:11, "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."
    Has an awareness of goodness
    Acts 15:28, "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials."
    Can be lied to
    Acts 5:3, "But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land?"
    Can be tested
    Acts 5:9, "Then Peter said to her, 'Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test?'"
    Makes overseers
    Acts 20:28, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood."
    Can be a witness
    Acts 5:32, "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
    Can be resisted
    Acts 7:51, "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit."
    Activities of the Holy Spirit
    Teaches
    John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. 26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
    Luke 12:12, "for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
    Intercedes
    Rom. 8:26, "And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;"
    Leads
    Matt. 4:1, "Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil."
    Gives life
    John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
    Filled by
    Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
    Forms of the Holy Spirit
    Dove
    Matt. 3:16, "And after being baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon Him."

    Miscellaneous
    Can be spoken against
    Matt. 12:32, "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come."
    Can be baptized with the Holy Spirit
    Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
    The Spirit is given
    John 3:34, "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.
    The Spirit is received
    John 20:22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit."
    The Spirit forbids
    Acts 16:6, "And they passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia."
    The Spirit searches all things
    1 Cor. 2:10, "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
    The Spirit is the truth
    1 John 5:7, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."

    The Bible is not full of irrelevent bull...It is the word of God and that word is not shit.

    God's existence is not provable to those who have not experienced him. To those who have not, they must seek him inorder to see. To those who have experienced him, God is unquestionably real.

    Christ's death clears those who accept him of all their sin, and makes them a new being that is given entrence into Heaven....It is through the blood of Christ that we are healed. Not through a cleansing in purgotory.

    Accept the sacrifice, be cleansed of sin, reciece the Holy Spirit, and when you die, enter Heaven, and escape Hell. All the while, becoming a better being on Earth and becoming Christlike with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
     
  14. WILL THE ALMIGHTY

    WILL THE ALMIGHTY

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    Yawn.

    Forget promises of a better afterlife, live for today. Be happy NOW.
     
  15. Kjiverx

    Kjiverx

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    pi: if they'd said it was 31 cubits around that'd be fine. how hard is it to write 31 instead of 30? not very.

    i never said the holy spirit isn't mentioned at all in the bible, i said it wasn't mentioned very often, as compared to, say, how you should be afraid of god.

    the bible is not full of irrelevant bullshit, but there's lots of it. consider Lot: "hey evil crowd of Gomorrans, rape my daughters instead of these two strangers i just met five minutes ago." that is not what a righteous man does. on the other hand , seriously, there is a reason adultery is forbidden in the bible- sexually transmitted diseases.

    you don't need to accept Christ to get to Heaven, you need to accept God. whether this happens before or after death might make a SMALL difference.

    @willthealmighty: Paul even says that if god does not exist we (Christians) will be the most pitied, because we have spent our lives being selfless, or kind-of selfless.

    conclusion:even if god does/n't exist, believe whatever you want. if you want to believe that you die and that's it, thats your choice. and all true Christians should be cool with it.
     
  16. Elenai

    Elenai

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    In the Bible the word fear means revere. It is not fear as in be petrified, it is fear as in, fear your parents and your elders.

    The reason Lot did that was not because of a command of God...But because that was the practice of the middle eastern culture of the time. Hospitallity was a massive virtue.

    I'm sorry, but this is not true. The Bible clearly says "I am the way, the truth ,and the light. None come to the father but through me" -Christ-

    Everyone should be tolerant of another persons beliefs. But a True Christian should also tell others the Gospel.

    To accept Christ is to accept God, fore Christ is apart of and equal to God in the Trinity.

    I agree.
     
  17. MySpaceBarBroke

    MySpaceBarBroke

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    @Cheeder: I already changed my mind. Circular logic IS actually a material fallacy and not a logical one.
     
  18. Hakeem

    Hakeem

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    Cheeder:
    Why is purpose an argument for God?
    Why is order an argument for God?
     
  19. Cheeder

    Cheeder

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    I already stated.

    Something, literally, from nothing does not happen for no reason. For anything to happen at all needs purpose before it can be/happen.
    Then we relate the existence to anything to that of intelligence and the power to create.

    Same goes for order. Order, as we can relate to natural laws, is purposeful, is intelligently designed, IS logic. Do you not understand natural law? Gravity cannot create itself. The order of atoms in molecules cannot create themselves to be, to exist in the forms they do, to make matter malleable, tangible. You did not create yourself. All of these things were created so that they can and would work.

    If you take the big-band theory, what was there before matter? Space. Well, how did space create space? It couldn't.
    There is an order to things, cronilogically and ideally so that anything which exists can be. Again, a force of power and intelligence, a master, a creator is behind all of that which is created.
     
  20. Shados

    Shados

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    And a god can create itself, but no other thing can create itself? Let's say god is Michelangelo, and the universe is the Mona Lisa. Is it more likely for Michelangelo to spring into being, or the Mona Lisa?


    Similarly, what was there before god?

    Besides, the obvious counter to the 'before' argument is that time may be circular, not linear, and so everything has allways existed.


    In any case, as this is my post for #800, I won't close it for another post, or whenever I check.
     
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