Do you ever have a moment when you realize it's all gone to crap

[Retera]

As a technologist, at some points I started trying to get control over my data so that it's not always leaked to big tech companies and that the technology serves my behalf instead of theirs. But sometimes I feel like that harder I try -- and the more that I learn as a result -- the farther I fall. The more I realize that it's all gone to crap.

One example of this that I realized today is the Discord integration feature of Hive Workshop. Discord runs on Google cloud, and so by integrating Discord with the Hive account so that it shows Hive notifications on Discord, it is effectively giving Google access to read your private messages on Hive. Back when I set up the integration, this data leak didn't even occur to me. I was just thinking in a narrow-minded way, using whatever technology was convenient at the time.

But when I try to unwind it and get a handle on it, to get Google out of my life, it's like ripping out a mind virus that puts out thorns as it exits your body. And they have it on every level. For a little while I was thinking -- maybe Hive private messages are safe, these are on Ralle's server, Google can't read them -- but if I or the other party have "Discord integration" enabled, then these messages are sent off to Google, totally, and probably can be data-mined for advertising revenue.

It just seems really unfortunate. This isn't an isolated example. Most technologies today seem to have a reason behind the scenes for why they were built that isn't actually user convenience. I've met the kind of people who were morally okay with anything they could do in their own best interest. Over time, I'm coming to believe it's not some accident. Discord didn't make it easy to integrate Hive and then discover afterward that -- by the way -- it means Discord's servers can read the little previews of your Hive private messages that are sent over in case they want to study those or share the data with Google and partners. On the contrary, they probably created the integration to increase the amount of data they collect, in a world where data basically equals money.

It's just sad. It feels like a re-affirmation that I should lower my faith in humanity, and that other people are working against me and we can't all just work together. Does anyone else ever feel this way?

 

[FeelMyRash]

I've felt the same as you... I've felt like nothing is going to turn out alright... But I'm starting to think it's human nature to expect the worst, and if you can fight against that, even for an hour... That's all that's needed to prove that there's things to be positive about, for me at least...

The fact is, not everyone is working against anyone. This entire site is dedicated to helping people in one way or another, including money donations for those who are in need. There's plenty of examples of people helping each other, they're just drowned out by the negativity that the Media propels in every direction. If you feed into the negativity, then you're only adding to it.

As for privacy... Just be glad there's not a literal person breathing down your neck, controlling what you say and do.

 

[Wlizer]

So true. I miss the times from 2006 when every message sent in battle net wasnt being suspected of being some sort of terror ist abuse or kid abuse or something sick like that and they just let us send messages to each others without data collecting them.
I felt like i was just hanging around with my gang and we could basicially talk about anything we could but everybody just choosed to focuse on gaming and be okay with everybody else. I never saw anybody to say anything even bordeline criminal.

But now everybody constantly being suspected just simply kills the fun of writing anything.

And it kills me to alwasy double-think what i wrote because everything can be looked from alternative standpoints.

 

[deepstrasz]

I think one would do best to keep their sanity by applying stoicism: 12 (Stoic) Rules For Life: An Ancient Guide to the Good Life

 

[loktar]

It feels like a re-affirmation that I should lower my faith in humanity

I think you're misplacing the blame here. These things aren't caused by humanity, but by the political and economic reality humanity lives under. If you want to change society, you need to change the rules under which it operates, not the people operating under those rules.

 

[Retera]

you need to change the rules under which it operates

Right but David Grusch basically said that those rules are potentially getting imposed or manipulated by a set of a humans with non-human tech ripped from flying saucers or something like that. And obviously there is a certain kind of lack of public evidence, so we shouldn't believe him yet, but what we do have is really bad leadership that has failed to put forward a public story surrounding what he was talking about. Instead, US legislators invited him in to a hearing where he swore under oath that the people he worked under within the US government had recovered vehicles they were confident were non-human in origin. It's a problematic topic to look up online because of how stupid it is -- like our collective ability to laugh at flat earth because it is obviously wrong, I find that I have an emotional tendency to want to laugh at the idea that the US government is hiding crashed flying saucers. The idea that the US government is hiding flying saucers... should not be so. If it were so, what it means to be a human should have changed so drastically that we would have been informed -- on a surface level, this might be similar to the endless laundry list of technologies we use today (phone using GPS to know time, etc) that disprove "flat earth" bollocks in an instant.
So, for probably the same reason that people laugh at flat earth clickbait, I found myself sometimes clicking on trashy online media about these US government officials who claim that the US government is hiding crashed non-human-origin vehicles and alien bodies. The problem is, the more of them that I encountered, the more it seemed to differ from flat earth because the people disproving it were not doing as good of a job. For example, one can easily look up the recent AARO report from the US government, wherein the government wrote a report that says they investigated themselves and concluded they're not hiding aliens. The PDF report is cited in several places online lately indicating that it disproves the clickbaity-misinformation that folks are seeing online these days that tries to tell them there are non-human intelligences on earth zipping around in flying saucers.

The problem is if we actually read it. It details a story running from the 1940s to today, where the US government basically had constantly running programs -- and it lists them by name -- to deal with the flying saucer issue, starting with the first one that investigated the problem in the 1940s and concluded that the objects in the sky observed by military pilots were indeed high-speed extraterrestrial vehicles, only to have their superiors fire them all for having an opinion that "wasn't acceptable to have." Then they kept running program after program in the following 50 years where someone would say they should "investigate the issue," and then they looked into the issue, and then leading scientists from places like CalTech would tell them this is a big issue and they need a big budget to solve it, and then they would later come back and give some conclusion like, "What we found is that the government should create a program for convincing everyone that flying saucers are debunked, and that anyone who reads about the issue in a university should not receive points." Then they talk about a group of people inside the US government in 2009 who looked at the old files from the 1960s and concluded that the US government is hiding aliens, then quit their jobs to go public about it, and the report dedicates almost an entire page to how those people who looked at those old files are bad people, and they weren't supposed to look at the old files, this wasn't their official duties, and they should be considered untrustworthy liars.

Basically, the people in positions of power with access to the legitimate information who might explain the answer to the much better question of why we have all heard of flying saucers to begin with -- to answer for us: who is flooding the internet with stories and claims that flying saucers exist, seem to me like they sort of failed us all by not putting forward a story that accurately explains where all this stuff comes from.

I mean if we use common average human knowledge as our source of truth, we live in an era of AI and not of aliens, but even then the problem is that all the stuff I wrote above we're left to assume is trash that some AI probably put in my head. That might be some government test -- perhaps it was concluded that I wasn't an important internet user, and they should hit me with some "AI-based software to convince people of bogus opinions" and then they basically bread-crumbed me into finding myself reading this stuff -- which ostensibly any human you might ask on the street would tell you is trash -- about a bunch of US former government officials claiming to have encountered flying saucers (and sometimes their non-human occupants) over the course of their official duties.

But that's really frustrating. Because then it's kind of like, either:

1. The "trash" I was reading has some grain of truth to it, and humans are not the most dominant "species" on this planet at this time [NOTE: some sources implied that the "little green men" of folklore are bio-drones created by sentient machines that live in the sea, so calling that a "species" might be wrong]
2. The "trash" I was reading on the internet is getting peddled at me by a society with a high-powered ability to convince people of super fake crap [NOTE: this is the far more likely case judging by average human opinion] and thus when we talk about democratically organizing to change the rules of society to make something better, we might exist in a world where this is harder than it has ever been before, because of all the AI-generated filth getting spewed on the internet. A world drowned in AI-generated filth is much harder to organize in than a world where finding true, legitimate and organized human knowledge is fast, efficient, and systematic

 

[loktar]

The "trash" I was reading on the internet is getting peddled at me by a society with a high-powered ability to convince people of super fake crap

This is closer to the truth I think. Remember we live in a world where attention is a highly valuable commodity. Even more traditional companies that sell physical products need attention through advertising. Conspiracy theories and controversy generally are the easiest way to grab your attention and generate revenue for the company that owns the site or app you're on. It also just so happens that this kind of thing is pretty easy to generate with AI.

We need to regulate companies that produce "information" so that they're held accountable for spreading demonstrably false claims, even (or especially) companies that don't produce traditional news media, like social media.

As for the "flying saucers" thing, most if not all of it can be explained by cold war-era secret projects and/or natural phenomena or equipment glitches. For example, the famous roswell incident wasn't a simple weather balloon, it was a secret project to spy on the Soviet Union (or China maybe, I forget the details). That's why the stuff people found looked so weird. Those videos released a while ago showing black blobs "flying" at incredible speeds are just glitches in the software.
I do think it's important to invest time and money into investigation when people see things they can't explain. I really doubt we'll ever find it to be aliens, simply because it's so unlikely.

 

[Retera]

We need to regulate companies that produce "information" so that they're held accountable for spreading demonstrably false claims, even (or especially) companies that don't produce traditional news media, like social media.

This sounds nice, but only if we still have the capability to actually measure what is demonstrably false. A lot of social media companies today seem to want to offer the (imaginary?) solution of having their AI-driven clickbait tech eliminate "false" claims by using new an additional AI-driven systems to decide what is true and what is false. As if they believe they can solve the problem with the problem.

If you are in favor of regulating what narrative we are all led to believe, it is extremely important that you (or the politicians you support) have the absolute top quality ability to measure beyond a shadow of a doubt what is "demonstrably false" or else you would probably just lead society to some dystopia that lacks freedom of speech.

As an example, here I will cite some sources that might debunk or bring in to question some of your points in your previous message, and I would very much like you to show how what I am citing is demonstrably false or that I am misinterpreting it:

Those videos released a while ago showing black blobs "flying" at incredible speeds are just glitches in the software.

Here is a CBS text-format article about an interview with the pilots, who were dispatched to inspect one of the objects from those videos in their military jets, encountered it up close with their human eyes, moved to "cut it off" and then observed it to accelerate so quickly that they use the word "disappear" to describe its capability and how much this apparent capability outclassed their own military planes. [Video of the same interview here.]
If you doubt the credibility of David Fravor, the US Navy commander who was interviewed by CBS in the above sources, then your opinion is apparently at odds with the US elected leadership who can be seen interviewing this same person here in a government hearing to try to better understand the issue. So: if you are in favor of legally mandating that only truth can be spread on the internet, what would you do about the people in this case to mandate something instead of them to exist?

As for the "flying saucers" thing, most if not all of it can be explained by cold war-era secret projects and/or natural phenomena or equipment glitches. For example, the famous roswell incident wasn't a simple weather balloon, it was a secret project to spy on the Soviet Union (or China maybe, I forget the details).

Looking at this recent report generated within the US department of defense, their narrative on Roswell is weird and a little bit hard to follow. They say that the bodies seen by witnesses "were test dummies" [on page 22], apparently corroborating that witnesses did see bodies and at the same time, their wording almost makes it sound more like the "Case Closed" Roswell Report from the 1990s was created to make Bill Clinton's team stop asking questions more than anything, which gives it a potential bias. Maybe there are better sources on this. Same document also says it never happened.

 

[loktar]

If you are in favor of regulating what narrative we are all led to believe

I'm not. Demonstrably false would mean claims that can objectively be shown to be false. Some things of course are subjective, too complex, outdated, or any number of reasons it can't be considered demonstrably false even if it isn't demonstrably true.

Anyway, that's kind of beside the point I guess. The main thing I wanted to say is that it isn't necessary to lower your faith in humanity, in my opinion. Just be critical of the systems that produce negative outcomes for people or society and do what you can to change those systems for the better. Pessimism doesn't do anyone any good, and history has shown that things can and do change for the better when enough people come together and make it so.

 

[Retera]

The main thing I wanted to say is that it isn't necessary to lower your faith in humanity, in my opinion.

Why not?

As another sign of the end of society, I've seen an increasing number of people who want to commission things on Warcraft 3. I always have to turn them down; I operate at a net loss financially in this creative space, and I think we all should. Isn't this supposed to be for fun?

A college friend of mine once told me I shouldn't pay someone to make something that isn't worth anything, for example. And I have totally violated that policy and totally donated money to a few Warcraft 3 projects a few times. But maybe that was unwise? Hard to say.

Anyway, similarly when people offer me money to make stuff on Warcraft 3 for them, they are trying to pay me to play a video game instead of doing my real life job which has nothing to do with video games. And the opportunity cost, by comparison, would pretty much always be a net loss. So, they're basically trying to entice me with financial loss because of their inflated currency making them feel like they deserve power over others or whatever. I do that to others because I'm a (stupid?) fat United Statesian, but when we get to the point that everyone is doing that to everyone else, is it a sign of impending financial collapse? A lot of people for years have always been doomsayers about stuff that's never happened. But in this case, it strikes me as odd how I see this more often.

I guess I just feel like money won't make a difference. We can outline how to get the best future for Hive Workshop -- dump the full source code of World Editor and Game.dll onto Hive so anyone can make derivative works, and create some way for folks to upload their own modified game clients. Create mobile apps for World Editor and Magos/Retera Model Studio, so in an increasingly mobile space, we empower creators to tweak their custom MDX files and draw their maps on the go. Our phones today are more powerful than the computers used to play Warcraft 3 and make maps in 2003.

But we can't do any of that. Not because it's technologically impossible, but because as a collective we're stupid. The purpose of technology is shifting to exploitation instead of empowering users. In this world, we get Arclight Rumble instead. It sucks. And no matter even if I made money in the War3 creative space somehow and wanted to invest it in the ideas described above, I couldn't, because I didn't learn how to work with others or trust in a hobby like this. Everyone is just doing whatever they want, while we get ravaged by the collective social exploitations. Somewhere, someone's model's portrait isn't working in their custom Reforged map because they didn't import it with the correct _portraitt suffix. While they try to figure it out, they get an error that they need to rebake PKB assets, even though they don't know what those are and don't care, and don't have any custom ones imported in their map editor.

We are technologically stagnated by authoritarian rule. It's dumb.

 

[deepstrasz]

We are technologically stagnated by authoritarian rule. It's dumb.

I think you are conflating capitalist laws with totalitarianism. Isn't the all so great and wanted democracy that lead us here? Are people not choosing their tinfoil hat rulers nowadays, again and again?

A college friend of mine once told me I shouldn't pay someone to make something that isn't worth anything, for example. And I have totally violated that policy and totally donated money to a few Warcraft 3 projects a few times. But maybe that was unwise? Hard to say.

Who/what declares which/what has a certain value? Are we living by the dictatorship of the economy or stand strong by the freedom of art or whatever?

 

[Retera]

Isn't the all so great and wanted democracy that lead us here?

Although people may have voted themselves into a situation where corporations can own technology concepts like the game of Warcraft III, I do not think that users of the Hive Workshop seem to have much of a vote in what the next Warcraft III patch will contain, so in that regard I would not call the current corporate governance a democracy in that way. I'm sure it has a lot of moving parts, and allows the shareholders of Microsoft to vote or something, but that's fairly contrived and probably not related to the interaction between Hive Workshop users and the contents of the next Warcraft III patch.

Who/what declares which/what has a certain value?

Great question. I included my anecdotes while fully aware that some people would disagree heavily with them, because the matter is seemingly subjective.

 

[deepstrasz]

Well, yes, but we can't live in a utopia because it just doesn't work. There isn't enough enough (intended) for everyone. Not yet. At least, we don't have the means to use the universe's resources in such a way but even then we might come to the conclusion that some will have more otherwise progress would be a stale stall.
Blizzard, like any other video game company is a private party. The organizers show what they want to the public from it, may or may not consider refreshing the groove with the audience's suggestions.
Warsmash is idea but even it has the potential of authoritarian or business corruptibility.

 

[Kakerate]

I felt this way with Riot's integration of kernel-anticheat into league. People have reported tons of bugs with it, and it disables other drivers it doesn't like without so much as asking. Not your computer anymore, I guess xD