(Closed) Orc Sub-Hero(es)

[Lich Prince]

I actually thought that Magheridon's hordes are the orcs of the Warsong clan. Only Grom was cleansed, not his whole Warsong clan?

Debode, as an answer for your question:

Mannoroth corrupted specific numbers of Orcs/Clans with his blood and Magtheridon with his blood samewise.

When Grom killed Mannoroth, he released the Orcs/Clans that Mannoroth corrupted. In the Blood Elf Campaign, I think those Orcs/Clans protecting Magtheridon are corrupted by, well, Magtheridon.

EDIT: This item thing seems to be a problem =/ ?

 

[McQvaBlood]

I think we solved that.

 

[TheSpoon]

But yes, please continue to post suggestions for Nazgrel's ultimate.
A few things you should be aware of:

- It doesn't have to be MUI
- It needs to suit Nazgrels 'character' (read back)
- If possible, needs a 'Fel' form
- Can't be too much like Grom's ulti
- Can't 'outshine' the other characters

 

[Twizter]

How about something like Furions ulti, except he calls down thunder to strike the enemies. The fel version could be him calling down firebolts or w/e

 

[Lich Prince]

How about a simple Locust Swarm edit? Thunderballs instead of locusts and something either Fel or Flame-y for Fel Nazgrel.

 

[barowei]

Well, I have one idea in the mind:

Nazgrel calls a spirits of fallen warriors from the dead bodies lying around adding X*number_of_corpses armor and X*number_of_corpses life regeneration to the allied units in 700 range.
Fel version would have same basics, but instead calling spirits it would make corpses explode dealing to enemy damage and lowering their armor.

Now, I will go back to the campaign - in Orc3 and Orc8 giving computer to the player is definitely BAD idea - it totally would break the balance, because AI acts in specific ways doesn't really cooperating with player. So that SHOULDN'T be changed. I can just imagine human knights and priests cooperating with orcish army and I definitely don't want to see that as true...
And of course, I'm against giving control over Cairne in Orc2, but I don't think I will be stubborn here. Using Cairne in O2 isn't important and breaks system a bit. First of all I would like more to have fun with new hero one scenario longer, also Cairne becomes playable in Orc6 and that doesn't need to be changed. And, last of all, Cairne played by player and Cairne played by AI that's two different Cairnes, so... maybe let's leave this, as it is?

 

[Twizter]

The Nazgrel spell could work, but maybe it outshines the other heroes spells a bit.

Now, in Orc3, Spoon suggested in making the Computer trigger whatever Grom should be triggering. It won't break the balance because Spoon will just add different stuff that will make it harder, like more frequent attacks, or upgraded infernals in Orc8.
I don't think you understand the part of Orc2. There won't be two different Cairnes, there will just be one, and you'll have control of him. It wouldn't break the balance, because you still wouldn't have control of the other Taurens and Spoon said that he was thinking about removing the supporting Taurens on Insane, making it even harder.

 

[McQvaBlood]

...I would like more to have fun with new hero one scenario longer, also Cairne becomes playable in Orc6 and that doesn't need to be changed. And, last of all, Cairne played by player and Cairne played by AI that's two different Cairnes, so... maybe let's leave this, as it is?

I think you have a point there. Yeah, who wants to play boooring Cairne when you can play Nazgrel?

Cairne does not have any exciting or powerful abilities on Level 4.

 

[barowei]

No - that you didn't understand me - I wasn't talking about 2 Cairnes (but maybe, as my language isn't fine, that sounded like that). I just want to suggest that's a bit difference between Cairne played by AI and Cairne played by player - maybe that should be left as that was on beginning - but as I told before: I won't be stubborn here.

Even if he will make it harder - that doesn't change fact, that it won't be same scenario that you can play in campaign. One of goals of this project was to make that being as similar to wc3 campaign as that is possible. That's good and I hope you won't forget about that.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Nah, your english is fine. Twizter just misunderstood you.
Still, Cairne has an important role in leading the caravan and I think I might just vote for Nazgrel.

Also, if all the Taurens get removed, Cairne won't be able to deal with ANY of the attacks, so now you'll have to protect the Kodos AND Cairne AND still get through the map. That would make it the hardest option out of all the previously discussed ones.

 

[Lich Prince]

I agree with barowei. Here, I'll even suggest a solution:

Add Nazgrel and remove some of the stupid AI Taurens on Normal.
How many are there anyway?

@McQ: This is Co-op. I think Nazgrel with his part of forces (or Thrall with his) is solely able to defend the Caravan. So both forces leaving the Caravan is kind of uhhmm.. senseless...

 

[McQvaBlood]

Unless Nazgrel gets some sort of heal, (I'm seriously against this.) you won't have enough forces to cut your way through the map without missing a few items.

We could also remove a few Taurens and add young Taurens instead. (There is a number of young Taurens on the first map. They're not as strong as Taurens.)

 

[Lich Prince]

Dude, why are you acting like I said "Nazgrel defends the caravan alone for the entire game", I didn't.

Thrall and Nazgrel both protect the caravan, that's the main quest. Thrall or Nazgrel can also have some fun gathering items and killing creeps. Neither should face a problem since there's alot of Healing items and Fountains scattered around the map.

Good idea on the Young Taurens.

 

[Twizter]

Sorry for misunderstanding >.>.

It'd be one of those co-op missions, where Thrall has to go with the part of his forces to clear the way ahead while Cairne protects the caravan. There are, I think, 4 Taurens defending the caravan and 2 or 3 fountains of health. With or without the Taurens, I'm pretty sure that the person playing Cairne could defend the caravan with his forces. Otherwise it would be like Nazgrel and Thrall just cut down everything they see while occasionally helping Cairne deal with the attacks

 

[barowei]

Otherwise it would be like Nazgrel and Thrall just cut down everything they see while occasionally helping Cairne deal with the attacks

Well, tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a goal of this scenario in wc3 campaign? Imo that's just another reason for leaving Cairne in AI's hands - it won't be so nice in insane mode anywayxP And yeah, it's good idea to replace some taurens with young ones.

 

[TheSpoon]

Allowing players to use the AI allied bases in O3 and O8 may seriously imbalance the game. But perhaps we can find a way around this?
But I remind you that I'd rather sacrifice a little bit of balance rather than a lot of fun.

I see we're having quite a large debate for O2 though.
I seriously think it will be more fun & more balanced if we allow the other player to control the 2nd Cairne
It may be deviating from the style of the original level a little, but doesn't that apply for all the maps? I think that 1 player collecting/protecting & 1 player fully protecting is the perfect style of play for the 2 player campaign.
Even if I used Nazgrel instead, I'd be inclined to remove or greatly weaken Cairne, because 3 heroes defending the caravan just seems overkill. When I played it, there was no challenge protecting the caravan at all.

 

[McQvaBlood]

That's mainly because:

I just replayed the whole orc campaign (with cheats lol : p)

Try it on hard and without cheats. It won't be that easy.

Btw, when is Under the Burning Skies going to be released?

 

[Deolrin]

Then you obviously played it on Normal, not on hard.
The map is yours to change; if you feel like something is too powerful, weaken it. If you feel like something is too weak, strengthen it. You can always add more centaur attack waves, or strengthen them.

 

[Lich Prince]

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but Spoon, I seriously think that your serious thinking about Cairne being more fun to play with than Nazgrel is wrong. Really, I just want some of the other guys posting around this thread to simply add a small part to their post stating whether they would enjoy playing with Nazgrel or Cairne in 02 if they read this.

Don't worry about the Difficulty Spoon, everything concerning that can be fixed/balanced but banishing a Hero can't. Anyway, it's your call.

Oh and will Cairne, if chosen, have his O2 inventory when he continues in O6?

 

[McQvaBlood]

We already agreed on how inventories will work.

You also have to keep in mind that the code system can really only hold 12 items at a time. (2 inventories), so this is what I'm thinking.

O1: Thrall/Nazgrel
O2: Thrall/Cairne
O3: Thrall/NazgrelORGrom
<At this point you are given a code that must be loaded onto chapter 6>
<No code is needed for the next chapter>
O4: Grom/Nazgrel
<A code is given for 05 like normal>
O5: Grom/Nazgrel
<At this point the items for 04/05 are lost>
<Now you use your code from O3>
<Continue as normal>
O6: Thrall/Cairne
O7: Thrall/Cairne
O8: Thrall/Cairne

Okay, let's do this then:

• I would like to play Nazgrel when possible.
• I don't want to play Jaina.
• I vote for CH123 = Thrall/Nazgrel; CH45 = Grom/Nazgrel; CH678 = Thrall/Cairne.

Copy this format and tell us your opinion.

 

[takakenji]

@takakenji
I played it alone to find out more of the Campaign?

huh? i was giving a suggestion for the bonus level

 

[TheSpoon]

No need to do a vote, I think I already know you're all against me.

Its just that maps like O2 were what gave me the idea to do the 2 player campaign.
In fact it was actually O3 that did just this.
I was playing it and thought "I wonder if I could change the other base so that it could be controlled by another player, that sure would make the campaign more fun"
So of course my original intention when I reached these levels was to make them all like that.

 

[barowei]

About difficulty - come on TheSpoon - isn't adding additional hero in all scenarios, where just one appeared making gameplay too easy? I remind you, that was the reason (or at least one of the reasons) of adding insane difficulty. And I agree with McQvaBlood in every part, as does my friend, with which I play this;]
Ah, I tried this on the hard difficulty - indeed that wasn't easy...
EDIT:
Oh, yes, I begin to writing it right after i have seen McQvaBlood's post so didn't see next repliesxP

 

[McQvaBlood]

If that was your intention than who are we to tell you not to do it.
You can be sure that we will play the maps, no matter what you decide on in the end. And even if we think it could have been done better, it's really you who's spending far the most time doing these campaigns.

As for O2, it's just that Cairne (I think.) will be a bit boring compared to a whole new hero, Nazgrel.
As for O3, I don't say that you shouldn't enable Grom, but you know that there is the inventory problem.

It's very important that you do enjoy making these maps. The easiest way for this project to fail is when you no longer think redoing these maps is fun.

 

[TheSpoon]

Nah, this is much more interesting XD
You're right, it is MY decision.
All of your views are welcome though.. and I do listen!
Even if I seen a bit nasty sometimes.

 

[takakenji]

i vote for my suggestion because it was super bester

 

[Tsfun]

In my opinion the heroes should be like this
Chp1-P1 Thrall -P2 Nazgrel
Chp2-P1 Thrall -P2 Cairne (though I'm not opposed to nazgrel as having him lvl 2 on mission 4 seems a little mean to me)
Chp3-P1 Thrall -P2 Grom
Chp4-P1 Grom -P2 Nazgrel
Chp5-P1 Grom -P2 Nazgrel
Chp6-P1 Thrall -P2 Cairne
Chp7-P1 Thrall -P2 Cairne
Chp8-P1 Thrall and Cairne -P2 Jaina (I would prefer this)
OR
Chp8-P1 Thrall -P2 Cairne -P3/AI Jaina

IF Grom is P2 in Chp3 his Lvl should be lowered to either 2 or 3
IF Jaina is P2/P3 in Chp 8 her lvl should also be lowered to 8 (not any lower)
and on Chp 4 maybe shared lumber resources?

Anyway that's just my opinion its always up to the spoon to decide

 

[TheSpoon]

Super bester xD

Well I've taken all your arguements and come to the conclusion.

This is how it will roll:
- O1 - Thrall & Nazgrel THEN Thrall & Cairne
- O2 - Thrall & Cairne
- O3 - Thrall & Nazgrel (Grom possibly controlled by a 3rd player)
- O4 - Grom & Nazgrel
- O5 - Grom & Nazgrel
- O6 - Thrall & Cairne
- O7 - Thrall & Cairne
- O8 - Thrall & Cairne (Jaina possibly controlled by a 3rd player)

As you guys will have noticed, I'm also planning on making Cairne playable at the end of O1, and Nazgrel will pause. A lot like Falric does in H7.
(Cairne's level will probably be lowered)

And unless there are any new points to be made I do not wish to discuss the matter further.

Now perhaps we should return to the original topic of this thread?
Although I am still interested in your opinions of the 3rd player.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Well... I don't know, it would be kind of strange to get a random new player for just one scenario.
This probably would not be a problem for me, as I play the campaigns with two different players so I would only have to find an hour of time where all three of us are free.

 

[barowei]

McQva if I'm not mistaken (i hope so) 3rd player is just an alternative and it won't have saved inventory or anything (it may cause some problems anyway). I would like to still have possibility to play it w/o 3rd player.
Back on original topic - you didn't comment my ulti idea TheSpoon:< Imo that doesn't really outshine Grom's Bladestorm (it won't be compared to Earthquake anyway...) and that's nice helpful (but situational - usually the best to use on the middle of battle) skill.

 

[takakenji]

what about my bonus level suggestion?

 

[McQvaBlood]

He already kind of accepted that.

I'll probably use Nazgrel in the bonus mission.
And I guess you could fight burning legion demons, and fel orcs, and him. [Mannoroth]

 

[takakenji]

cool, now i can brag to all my friends herp derp

 

[Twizter]

3rd player would be awesome. I also play this map with 2 different players. I think that every opportunity to add an optional 3rd player should be seized.

 

[TheSpoon]

Barowei yours was the one that used corpses for regen? Sounds cool : >
I've already added to my list of possible ones, but I was kinda looking for something 'new', not just healing or damaging.

 

[barowei]

Well, I totally agree with you - that's why that adds ARMOR and regen:>
Ok, talking serious I thought it would be nice and simple, but maybe you're right... I'll think about it.

 

[My_Face_Burns]

How about Nazgrel having a spell that enables him to switch from Shaman to Raider? This would solve the problem of what model he'll be having. I also agree with those who said he should become a Warlock after becoming a Fel Orc instead of having a custom skin and remaining a Shaman, because like someone said earlier, you lose your link with the spirits which is what enables you to be a Shaman, plus most of the models look pretty bad. Finally, when Nazgrel becomes a Fel Orc and goes into Raider form if you go along with this idea or if you don't but have him as a Raider he should just take the model of a Fel Orc Raider, if they exist (I cant remember!), if they don't then I think you'll have to find a custom model for him.

 

[JokeMaster]

Maybe instead using Nazgrel by Hellscream use Iskar he would fit and be a magic (intelect) hero.

 

[My_Face_Burns]

Well, hardly anyone knows who Iskar is and he is Grom's adviser so what the hell would he be doing with Thrall?

 

[JokeMaster]

No ,no i mean to use him in the missions with hellscream, not with Thrall.

 

[TheSpoon]

Well I could do, but I'm pretty dead set on using Nazgrel now though, but thanks for the suggestion

 

[Lich Prince]

We hardly know anything about Iskar anyway, and you(JokeMaster) said that he can be an intellect hero probably because of his Warlock unit model in the Lord of the Clans campaign.

Oh and "Occupation: Former Advisor to Grom Hellscream", so I think he most likely got stripped of his advisor rank after the little child incident or before the Warsong Clan set sail to Kalimdor.

 

[tulee]

I agree with mission 1 ( at the end ) and mission 2 having Cairne as the 2nd player's hero as both mission don't have altars and so the difficulty can't be increased because as soon as Cairne starts tanking ( as computer ) he won't move away and without being able to resurrect heroes in these two missions it's game over unless you can do enough damage so that all the centaurs die before Cairne does ( so the difficulty can't be high ).

Mission 3 ... well if Grom's base IS made usable by player 2 hopefully triggers can be added so a spawn of a few warriors + a mirror image of Grom will hit the human bases periodically, so that the story doesn't go too far off from Bizzard's campaign ( Grom's recklessness is what made him Grom )

Also on the Oracle mission I suggest player 2 controlling Player 1's units ( except Thrall ) and player 1 controlling player 2's taurens ( except Cairne ) so the story doesn't go too wonky. This can also be applied to the NE mission where Illidan is freed. It's not perfect but it keeps the campaign as close to the original as possible.

 

[TheFairfield]

If you use Nazgrel in Grom's missions, it would go against the lore, seeing as how Thrall only sent the Warsong Clan to Ashenvale, and Nazgrel is a member of the Frostwolf Clan.

Actually, maybe for mission 6, you could replace the orc scout from the zeppelin with Nazgrel?

 

[Lich Prince]

If you use Nazgrel in Grom's missions, it would go against the lore, seeing as how Thrall only sent the Warsong Clan to Ashenvale, and Nazgrel is a member of the Frostwolf Clan.

Don't worry that much about Nazgrel's lore, we're also turning him fel =P.

Actually, maybe for mission 6, you could replace the orc scout from the zeppelin with Nazgrel?

That was the first thing that hit my mind when I though about a Raider Nazgrel hero but it's not that helpful.

 

[Exoras]

What about... Uhm... Highlord Saurfang going with Thrall, instead of Nazgrel ? He's cool 8D

And, you could make an ultimate skill called Cleave for an obvious reason for all WoW gamers =P

And sorry if my english is too bad, i'm latino. Hehe.

 

[Deolrin]

High Overlord Saurfang became High Overlord when Orgrimmar was founded; e.g., at the end of The Frozen Throne.

 

[JokeMaster]

And what about Eitrigg?
Also using Vareok or broxigar wouldn't be against hte lore :

Varok Saurfang has served with the Horde ever since he drank the blood of Mannoroth alongside Grom Hellscream. Varok led forces in the sacking of Shattrath, Stormwind, and everything between, never losing in battle until the Horde was routed at the end of the Second War.

Broixigar , Brother of Saurfang. Famous Veteran of all three wars. Traveled back in time and participated in the War of the Ancients

 

[Rafal]

Well i got some ideas
As in most video (cinematic) it will shown that a headhunter (scouting unit mostly) is a captain so i would add to thrall a troll which is dealing dmg and hunting skills
for example:
1. Scout - Allows the hunter to see enemy unit whereever the unit runs.
2. Spear - dmg + stun
3. [passive] Hunting Skills - increase other spells + [level 1 = 10% more dmg from heroes dmg, level 2 = 20%, level 3 = 30%]
4. [ultimate] well there i have no idea

And grom should have also a captain the orc warchief which is in the first mission of the humans that "Mathog"

1. Roar - increase dmg for short period of time.
2. Help! - increases damage, hitpoints, manapoints (if unit have manapoints), armor, attackspeed, etc.
3. [aura] Leadership - more dmg and movementspeed
4. Invasion - call mass units which cant be removed by disspell.

Well i hope i dont send my ideas too late.
and if i do, just ignore all that

 

[Lich Prince]

Thank you for the suggestions Rafal, but I think Spoon already decided how it will probably roll.

Check it here.