Night Elf Sub-Hero(es)

[McQvaBlood]

So, I've been thinking about how some of you guys really wanted to enable Grom and Jaina and some other AI players on specific maps and I think I know which map could be used for this.

Though it's very far away at the moment, but...
You see, the first night elf map start with Tyrande and Shandris speaking about the outlanders. (Though not the extra unit Shandris, just an Archer called Shandris, but that's so that the extra unit can be on Twilight of the Gods. (Because it would be awkward, if you lost her on the first map and she'd still be there on the last.))
So most probably, Shandris will become the supporting hero for the first map, Enemies at the Gate.

On the second map, however, Tyrande is the only one to survive an attack from Archimonde.
In the second map's ending cinematic, Shandris welcomes Tyrande when she return to the night elf base. So Shandris cannot accompany Tyrande on her journey through the second map.

This leaves us with two options: Either a whole new night elf has to be added to the story or while Tyrande is marching through the second map, Shandris would have to keep alive the night elf base, sort of like on the fifth human map, March of the Scourge.

It would also be co-op, since it fully depends on Tyrande how long you have to defend against the undead. So the longer it takes for Tyrande to beat her half of the map, the more difficult it would become for Shandris to defend the base.
Additionally, a great attack could be sent against Shandris if Tyrande fails to complete the quest before dawn break. (You know, this is the map where time progresses very slowly to allow Tyrande to Shadowmeld and evade fighting three or four Doom Guards on her own, but when it's finally dawn she comments on how she can no longer use Shadowmeld. This is around ... 20 minutes into the map.)

And Shandris could be on four maps!
Map 1 = Tyrande + Shandris
Map 2 = Tyrande + Shandris
Map 3 = Tyrande + Shandris
Map 4 = Tyrande + Furion
Map 5 = Tyrande + Furion
Map 6 = Illidan + Shandris
Map 7 = Tyrande + Furion

 

[Lich Prince]

I think TheSpoon is generally trying to avoid this. But you do have a good point there, the Chapter 2 problem. There are also more problems in the Night Elf campaign, such as Chapter 5, where Tyrande solely continues to free Illidan and Furion solely continues to awaken the druids throughout the other parts of the chapter. And Chapter 6, where Illidan "consumes" the Skull of Gul'dan thus becoming the strongest Hero the player controls through all the campaigns.

Now making various solution for each of these problems isn't wise. In my opinion the perfect solution will be 2 custom heroes, the first being Shandris ofcourse, and the second being chosen from many different races. (such as a Barkskin Furbolg, a Shadow Tooth Clan Dark Troll, maybe just a simple member of the Sentinel, or Druids.)

UPDATED! (Friday the 20th of August, 2010. =P)

It would turn out to something like this: (2CH = Second Custom Hero)
Chapter 1: Tyrande + Shandris
Chapter 2: Tyrande + 2CH

Extra Info

(2CH approaches Tyrande after the Doom Guards leave and will ofcouse have an ability which will allow him to pass through the chapter.
Ex: Shadowmeld/Hide for Dark Troll/Sentinel, High CD Stomp-like ability with no damage for Furbolg, and probably a Cyclone or other caster ability for a Druid.)

Chapter 3: Tyrande + Shandris

Extra Info

(2CH makes an appearance, how about defend the base like Uther in H2...)

Chapter 4: Tyrande & Malfurion + Shandris & 2CH

Extra Info

(Yes, you read it correctly. And no, I didn't choose to do this because I feel that the chapter lacks heroes. It is simply crucial to my idea chain that they escort Tyrande and Furion.)

Chapter 5: Tyrande + Malfurion(Shandris or 2CH later)

Extra Info

(Shandris or 2CH will be cameos, thus appearing in the cinematics. When the time comes one of these custom heroes will accompany Tyrande and the latter Furion, through the other parts of the chapter.)

Chapter 6: Illidan + Shandris & 2CH

Extra Info

(Yes, yes, both heroes with Illidan. I tried to smartass read myself out of this dilemma on Wowwiki, but it was futile. Illidan doesn't share the power of the Skull of Gul'dan, he drains it all to himself, and becomes one of the most powerful heroes ingame. Metamorphosis Illidan = 2 Normal heroes, simple as that. Something similar to this was done in H9 if I remember correctly.)

Chapter 7: Tyrande & Malfurion + Shandris & 2CH

Extra Info

(Need I say more?)

I know this may sound extremely absurd when you read it, but please, think about it.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Giving control of three or more heroes at once will make all maps, particularly Twilight of the Gods, extremely easy.
I do not know why we'd go through all this trouble, just to allow Illidan and the second player to be equally strong. Illidan also ain't that powerful, he gets a ranged attack and a chaos attack type and around 30 extra damage. Notice however, that you'll control him for like... 5 minutes, while you cut your way through Tichondrius' vanguard.

Also, you forget that Malfurion too continues on his own journey through Chapter 5, he awakens the Druids of the Claw. The simple solution is to play both cinematics and Malfurion and Tyrande do their own parts simultaneously.

The comparison to Human 9 is just wrong.
Arthas and Muradin are going through a small maze of creatures, controlled by both players and Falric can be controlled to help defend the camp, but 1. Just Falric will not make that much of a difference 2. He has no items until Muradin dies.

 

[Lich Prince]

Meh, I knew it had many flaws. The ideas were worth the try though.

Plus, my idea chain isn't that bad, it would've made the campaign far more interesting imho. I also highly respect you and TheSpoon's opinions so do what you think is right.

EDIT: Oh and pardon me for the campaignial errors, last time I played it in 2006.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Yeah, it happens to even the best.
If you're ever unsure on any part of the campaign, though, just PM me. I played these like a vagillion times.

 

[TheSpoon]

I'm gonna move/rename this thread, cus it has kinda become a discussion of the nightelf sub heroes. xP

Just a few things I want to point out:
- I really don't want to massively change any of the levels (this is so that those who want to play it like it was, can), and I save the 'originality' for the additional custom chapters.
- I would like to avoid giving players control of several heroes. For H9, it seemed like the right thing to do.
- I do not think it matters too much if the 2nd hero is underpowered compared to the 1st hero. After all, having them there is a bonus anyway. With regards to the Nazgrel-Cenarius bit, I felt that was important, because he would need Chaos attack to be of ANY assistance.
- Of course, I would like to avoid having 2 night elf heroes, but if that would be the best option to stop massive map changes, so be it.


I have not yet replayed the Night Elf campaign, so I don't know it too well.
For Chapter 2, would it be possible for Shandris to accompany Tyrande, and just skip that line? OR have a generic night elf say it?

 

[McQvaBlood]

I will check in a few minutes.

EDIT: In the beginning, an Archer says:
"The undead are tireless. There is no way to outrun them."
In the end, Shandris says:
"Tyrande, praise Elune you've made it. The undead appeared out of nowhere and attacked our village without warning."

I don't know. Shandris' voice sounds way too distinct compared to an Archer, so we really can't interchange lines. The structure of the level wouldn't change that much.
I mean, Tyrande does her part, just like in the original campaign. The second player does something else.

 

[TheSpoon]

So what about a Spell-less Archer hero for Chapter 2?
You don't have to do much fighting in that chapter right? Just hiding.

 

[Twizter]

I say remove Shandris as a hero and just add an archer/dryad/druid/whatever hero instead. Except if people REALLY wanna play Shandris xD

 

[TheSpoon]

Thats a good point, it might be easier to play a new hero on ALL of the maps. And not bothering with Shandris at all.
Its just that so far I've managed to always use a character from lore, so I'm trying to keep it like that if possible

 

[McQvaBlood]

That would be pretty dumb.
I mean, Shandris is a unit. Shandris makes an appearance and has several lines on Enemies at the Gate and Daughters of the Moon, 2 maps out of 4 where a new hero is needed and she also appears on Twilight of the Gods.
Though how you'd explain that she's invulnerable and refuses to fight will be a challenge, but still, not making her a hero is like not making Falric a hero.

And what I'm suggesting for NE02 is not a 'massive map change', as all the original contents of the map remain untouched. Tyrande's part of the map does not change at all, so it wouldn't upset those who wish to play a chapter that resembles the original one. (Because let's face it, it won't be the same.)
You would just give another task for the second player and as I've said, it would even be co-op, because the longer it takes for Tyrande to reach Shandris, the higher the chance that Shandris will be overrun.
Seriously, just play that map and you'll see how great this would fit in there.

 

[TheSpoon]

Ok, I will x3

 

[Lich Prince]

In my opinion, these are your choices Spoon:

1- Add 2 Custom Heroes.
Pros:
-Avoids any campaign problems.
-Gives maximum per-player enjoyment.
Cons:
-Makes "Normal" difficulty feel like "Childplay" or "Easy".
-Too much additional hero work.

2- Modify some Campaign levels.
Pros:
-Gives maximum co-op play enjoyment.
-Avoids any campaign problems.
Cons:
-Damages some of the chapters' structure.
-Too much additional overall campaign work.
-Opens chances for additional errors and bugs.
(Such as Shandris (in Chpt 2) overpowering undead or units passing through undead base triggering unecessary stuff. Or in chapter 5, If Furion finishes before Tyrande or vice versa, cinematic triggers, units pausing, random bugs and error.)

3- Make one Custom Hero (not Shandris).
Pros:
-Avoids any campaign problems.
Cons:
-Ruins fan-wanted lore abit (We've done worse xD).

Choice 3 may be the best to choose but I'm going with 1 or 2 anyway =P.

 

[McQvaBlood]

The Furion-Tyrande split is inevitable. I mean, who wants to sit around waiting while the other player does his part?

And on the second map I know how we can stop Shandris from destroying the undead base.
There is a gate blocking Tyrande's path. That gate could be made invulnerable until Tyrande arrives at the undead base, so Shandris is pretty much stuck in a small area. You just have to disable Ballistas so nothing stupid happens.
1.) Then, if Tyrande goes near the Gate it becomes vulnerable. (So that rushing through the undead base and quickly destroying the Gate still remains a valid option.)
2.) Once Tyrande arrives near the undead base, the gate opens/becomes vulnerable and Shandris and Tyrande can beat the base together.

It would be hard to play as Shandris, because you'd have Moon Wells and Archers and Huntresses and that would be that. Though the map begins with a veeery long night and that would help her immensely. (Because her units would regenerate and her Moon Wells would generate mana constantly.)

 

[Twizter]

I like McQvaBloods idea, but I still am leaning more towards what I said earlier. And who said the character can't be from lore? We can find some known character who fought there too. Nazgrel doesn't have any lines, but he's still in the Orc campaign.

As for the Furion and Tyrande split, I agree 100%

 

[TheSpoon]

I played the NE chapter 2, and I think I like McOva's idea.
The bases are a BIT too close though tbh, it might need some work.

 

[doombringer]

heya been having a good time playing the campaign co-op with a friends and I was looking through these forums and I just wanna say I really like the McOva's Idea about 1 player defends while another sneaks on chapter 2 of NE

 

[TheSpoon]

I quite liked it too, I reckon I will be using that one
The level may need a little jiggling around though