RoC Night Elf Campaign (suggestions)

[Rui]

I've been tinkering around with NightElf01.w3m, just thought I'd let you know. Since this forum used to have a great deal of activity and threads have a lot of views, it seems like a good idea to have this thread here in order to gather suggestions.
Of course TheSpoon can consider any of the proposals made here in case he comes back and decides to finish the Night Elf campaign himself.

Here are my ideas for the series of missions of the Night Elves:

• Three sets of difficulties: one corresponds to Normal difficulty, the other corresponds to Hard difficulty, and a third, "Insane", if you'd like to call it that, with a special AI that plays more like a human player. I'm not sure what the capabilities of this would be, I still have to study the possibilities.

• Make upgrades purchasable only at the end of the map and make them carry on for the rest of the campaign, or give players the option to choose between this and the old system, during NightElf01 (the first mission).
Much like in StarCraft II, upgrades would be bought with "points" that are earned in a fixed amount at the end of each mission, but completing optional quests would also grant a bonus to this fixed amount of points.
I'll probably discard the idea of giving points based on scores or performances, though: how fair or interesting (I'm not being ironic) would it be if you did bad and, on top of that, you get no upgrades for the following level? It's kind of counter-intuitive on that regard. On the other hand, I could allow points-based-on-scores in "Insane" if the player(s) want it; it'd be interesting to create a logic of: «that level is harder, so we're gonna make worse on that and rock on the next»?

• Give Shandris a few exotic spells, but allow Tyrande to pick an alternate class so the player controlling Shandris doesn't get all the custom stuff.

• (your suggestion here!)​

This with the loading system on top of it, of course. I'd very much like to implement that upgrade system, but it's up for discussion.

 

[Whitewolf8]

Haha, suggestion 2 and 3 are WoS inspired i'm guessing? But yeah, i'd have to agree with them.
And I don't think that AI would be too capable of that, maybe something near it, but not exactly.
Suggestions from me? i'll have to think on it

 

[Rui]

The second proposal is similar to how the StarCraft II campaign(s) work(s). I have no idea about WoS, the last time I played through it was 2 major updates ago, I have no clue what's been added.
The third has nothing to do with anything. The Far Seer and Paladin are relatively interesting heroes, but the Priestess of the Moon is kind of boring: Scout, Searing Arrows, and later an aura, not much fun to it.

By the way, right now I'm stranded because I can't figure out where they set the difficulty level based on the settings. All I can find is an initiating of the AI and subsequent ordering it to execute command (0,0). I'm going to take a look at it again, and then in the AI script if I can't find anything.

 

[Whitewolf8]

Ah, just the same they've got things similar.

AI you could of course recreate an AI based on it I'd think.

 

[AL_Eclipse]

I like your idea for having purchasable upgrades at the end of ervery mission, it always felt a bit dumb to research every upgrade in every mission again^^

But i wouldnt change the spells from tyrande that much tbh.
First of all she was one of my favourite heroes especialy because you didnt have to do that much AND even though her owl scout is kind of boring the missions are kind of designed for the permanent use of it. At least i remember a lot of stuff that i discovered with it.
Also her Trueshot aura is rly powerfull because nearly every night elf unit is ranged and would make her kind of weak without it.
So the only spell that could be changed in my opinion should be the Searing Arrows ability in exchange for another damage ability but keep in mind that you get furion after a few mission anyway and archers are rly micro intensive^^

 

[McQvaBlood]

The main problem with purchasable upgrades is that the upgrades bought would have to be carried on to the next level. That is only possible if it is stored in the load code, which would make it rather lenghty.

Assuming we could somehow work around that, I don't think buying the regular upgrades and having them available from the very start of the game is a good idea.
The time to research upgrades can be essential for maintaining the difficulty in some missions, especially Twilight of the Gods. At least the attack, armor and caster upgrades should remain unresearched.

However, we could remove the unit specific upgrades and give each unit two special upgrades, which are either new to the game or based on the ability removed and can be researched with these points.
For example, you could buy Improved Bows for Archers with these points. (Increases maximum range.) Another upgrade could be one that makes them shoot two arrows. (Instead of Marksmanship, which simply increases damage by 3.)
Druid of the Claw could have an ability that makes them regenerate hit points very quickly when out of combat or one that reduces the supply they use or an upgrade that allows them to cast Roar while in Bear Form. (The last one is actually the same as Mark of the Claw, but it was only added in TFT, so it would be removed for the night elf campaign anyway.)

Of course, these ideas very hastily thought up and aren't really that creative, but they are enough to explain the concept.

 

[Deolrin]

I don't like the idea of changing the campaign so much. Part of why I love this project so much is because it allows you to feel like you're playing Blizzard's campaign, but with a friend. With all of those weird, "revolutionary" changes, that feel would be gone and it would be obvious that you're playing something custom.

 

[barowei]

^ This. At last some voice of reason.
To be honest I wanted to write this way before, but couldn't afford time for it.
This idea IMO goes too far against the basic idea of the project, to make it as close to original as this is possible. I understand some people would want to more "revolutionaly" changes, but come on - it's not what this project is about! I, for one, want to enjoy again the good ol' Blizz campaign with my friend failing again and again on the insane mode till we at last get it. Without any ridiculous stuff making it closer to custom-made than original.

 

[Rui]

Well, I have no idea why you wouldn't want improvements if you could have them. Nevertheless, I will, most likely, like I mentioned, give you the option to choose for things to run the old way if you want.

 

[Deolrin]

Because that doesn't sound like "improvements" to me, it sounds like "forcing SC2 stuff into WC3". "Modernizing". Like the new YouTube. It just seems lame, and not very nostalgic.

 

[Rui]

So if WarCraft III and StarCraft II came in opposite chronological order it'd be fine?
My point is that it is not about modernizing; those things were implemented to break with the old, sure, but to innovate is to improve, always, otherwise there is no point in innovating in the first place.
Nonetheless, don't worry, you'll have the option to do things the old way.

 

[Rui]

Hero skills

Alright, I am very very lazy so I don't know if you'll ever see a good "Enemies at the Gate", let alone the entire campaign. Still, I'm frequently tinkering around with ideas and I came up with some thoughts on skills.
Here are my suggestions for Shandris's skillset. She is supposed to be a good damage dealer all on her own, but I haven't decided about an ultimate yet.

	Shackles Round (haven't decided what mana cost) An arrow is shot at a target enemy, ensnaring it and 1/2/3 more targets behind it.
	Ambush (120 mana) Shandris orders a concealed pocket of Sentinels to fire up to 3/4/5 times for 20 damage per shot at nearby enemy units from the protection of nearby woods. Targets a tree, but must have at least other 5 trees around it.
Sprint (45 mana) Boosts the speed of the hero by 20/40/60 for 15 seconds.

And the ideas for an alternate class of Malfurion:

	Natural Chains (undecided mana cost) Furion wakes a tree from its slumber, making it come to life. The tree then uses its roots to entangle 1/2/3 unit(s) (slightly damaging them? undecided).
	Nature's Ordain (undecided mana cost) Places an enchantment on nearby friendly units, slowly restoring their health and mana over a period of time. The effect is dispelled if the unit is attacked. Undecided values.

 

[Deolrin]

...Wait, why would Furion have an 'alternate class'? Asides from possibly breaking some gameplay mechanics(Force of Nature is used very often, to find secrets or pass through missions)... I mean, you don't need to fix what is not broken. Furion is fine as it is. He is a very fun hero to play in the Campaign, being very powerful despite being an Intelligence hero. He has a lot of damage and such.

Shandris' skills are more agreeable. I would switch out Sprint for an aura(e.g, an aura that gives nearby units Shadowmeld, or an aura that boosts nearby units' range, or something like that). If she's a damage dealer, her ulti should be some kind of nuke, I guess.
Also, Rui, how come you're the one leading the project now? I'm sorry, I'm not very informed on the matter, but I cannot find anything in the forums to explain what happened to TheSpoon and that other guy who was working on the campaign.
And don't you think it would be smart to finish "By Demons be Driven" before starting the Night Elf campaign? :V Not to mention the missing custom Undead chapter.

And as a general note... All of that customization is not needed, at all. As far as I can see, it would only ruin an otherwise great project. Instead, focus on customizing the "Insane" mode of each mission, as well as the custom heroes, and the custom chapter for each campaign. I really do think that should be enough, without changing the awesome core systems already in place(in WC3 and in the campaign).

 

[Rui]

I was creating at least 1 alternate class for both Tyrande and Furion in case people wanted off the regular Wc3 skills. Force of Nature's role has always been present on my head, I know it is sometimes used to uncover secrets and I've been thinking of either creating a new secret-uncovering mechanic or finding a workaround. Chances are I'll just leave Force of Nature as Furion's second skill even on the alternate class.
As always, you have the option to stick to the regular spellset of the Priestess of the Moon and the Keeper of the Grove.

An aura is close to being out of question for Shandris, because Tyrande and Furion each already have one. All races possess only two auras: Devotion and Brilliance for Humans; Endurance and War Drums for Orcs; Vampiric and Unholy for Undead; Thorns and Trueshot for Night Elves. I would at most give her a passive ability, but I fear that adding another aura would make up for too many auras.

TheSpoon is highly inactive. I think he intends to finish the Orc Campaign at some point, but, judging from his activity, I doubt he'll get started with the final campaign. Given this — and in order to practice a bit on AI design —, I am making the first Night Elf mission. If by any chance TheSpoon returns in full activity, he can resume making the campaign plus or minus what I did in the meantime.

 

[Deolrin]

Oh, so there's no permissions and stuff like that involved?
Well, yeah, I appreciate your effort then. I assume you are basing your work off his maps? With the same triggers, systems, "Insane" difficulty, -load codes, etc? Either way, as long as you have the option to play the map like you would in TheSpoon's other work, and in Blizzard's campaign, I'm fine with everything. ^^
Alternatively, without the need of re-using Force of Nature, you could simply add a similar spell, with an area of effect that is just as big as Force of Nature's, and that can also destroy tress. Perhaps use trees to heal nearby allied units? Perhaps a nature-based explosion to damage enemies? I don't know, many things could work.

 

[Rui]

I never actually asked, no ._.'

 

[TheSpoon]

Don't worry I'm still around, I do check my pm's once per week I just sometimes forget to look on here!
I planned to work more on the project in the summer.
You'll notice in the past that is when I released most of my maps.
The problem is getting back into the swing of things, since I've forgotten a lot.

Just a few things to address:
- I'm really glad that an administrator has shown real interest in the project, and I'm more than happy that you've started thinking about putting your own ideas into the campaign.
- I was intending to still do this NE campaign myself eventually, I'd be more than happy to let you to. But please only start it if you hope to the whole thing eventually, it'd be a shame if you only did some of it!
- Of course I'd be even happier if you took up one of the frozen throne campaigns, since nobody has claimed they would do these and it'd be great to have the whole set!

A few things related to the topic of the thread too:
- Making upgrades carry on between the levels does seem an interesting idea, you could even add some more, and some decisions between upgrades as McQva said
- But he's right that it would make the save/load code even longer, and I've had complaints that it is too long already!
- I agree with Deolrin that if I made the campaign, I'd like to keep it as close to the original as possible. But if you had the option to have it on/off then I suppose that would be fine too. But then things get quite complicated in terms of balance!
- I'm quite quite good with the AI now too, I think I can almost send them commands using triggers (like when to send attack waves and things)
- As for the spells, I do agree tyrande is quite a boring hero to play, and I really wouldn't want the new hero to really overshadow her. But some of her spells- like her owl, are important to some of the levels. So perhaps adjust the spell so that it has an additional effect?

 

[Rui]

Thanks =) I shall wait until the Summer then. I find myself working on my own map more than this. Frankly, I only deleted many of Blizzard's triggers, started writing a few lines for the starting script, coded one of Shandris's spells, cleaned up the players list (Blizzard loves using lots of them), and then I haven't really done much more.

 

[Vinz]

by the way, for the owl scout, you could make it last longer but take some of its sight away

 

[Jumbo]

You know that Rui is now banned. This means that The Spoon should take the campaign up.

 

[Deleted member 212788]

Who's Rui and why is he banned ?

 

[McQvaBlood]

Well, to me it was never in question that Spoon should take up the campaign.
If he wants to and he already announced he intends to, then he definitely should do this one as well.

I certainly hope he will, after completing my own night elf campaign I couldn't stomach going back and doing yet another seven night elf chapters. (By the way, yes, chapter eight is pretty much complete, all that remains are some minor difficulty adjustments for insane mode that I hope to get done over the next few days.)
It's strange how you kind of get tired of converting maps to 2 player for the same race over and over again. I'm already looking forward to converting human chapters.

@TheSpoon: Tell me about long save codes, if you have more than two heroes there's no way you can squeeze all their inventories into just one code. You got it lucky with the RoC campaign, you never have to save more than two heroes ever. At least the undead expansion campaign will only need one code each for the two story branches.