The Brothers Stormrage

[McQvaBlood]

So, if someone took the time to read the "other useful information" thread, you have seen that the eighth map, the Brothers Stormrage had an undecided remark about its hero distribution.
This map is played as both Malfurion's Force and Illidan's Naga.
The main dilemma here is:

• The two players can't be Malfurion and Illidan, respectively, because of item issues. Illidan carries his items to Chapter Five and then Six of the Blood Elf campaign, therefore, I cannot give him the second player's inventory. Why so? Because, among others, I cannot allow you to take a Shadow Orb +10 and all the tomes you gathered in this campaign with you to the Blood Elf campaign.
• Maiev is gone and so I really can't add Saithis. She is loyal to the Watchers, not the Sentinels or the Druids. So, there's Magroth the Defender, but saving him is optional. If you haven't saved him in the previous map, it's awkward for him to show up.

However, there's also Tyrande on this map. She defends a small night elf base against waves of undead. And this gave me an idea...

Chapter	Player One - First Hero	Player One - Second Hero	Player Two - First Hero	Player Two - Second Hero
(8) The Brothers Stromrage	Malfurion	Illidan	Tyrande	Random Naga Hero

Malfurion is more a liability than an asset this time, because you need to keep his base alive, but he can't do anything to make it easier for Illidan to take out the undead base. Now, this changes to one player having to keep Malfurion's base alive and another player having to keep Tyrande's base alive.
However, all the systems you are familiar with from the campaign would now become active for both Malfurion and Tyrande: You could help Tryande survive by sending her gold or researching important upgrades and vice versa.
On the other hand, to balance the players, both players would also be granted a Naga base. Just like in the original mission, this Naga base would be completely independent of the night elf base and would have its own food limit and upkeep levels.

Originally, Tyrande uses "elite" versions of basic night elf units in this mission. If this idea is added, that would of course be removed.

Additionally, if you desire, I could add an option to this one map that makes it four player.

 

[Twizter]

This idea is brilliant! Perfectly balances them.
I also like the sound of 4 players

 

[Lich Prince]

• Why so? Because, among others, I cannot allow you to take a Shadow Orb +10 and all the tomes you gathered in this campaign with you to the Blood Elf campaign.

Hmm...

Are you trying to stop Illidan from having the Shadow Orb for balance issues later on for the Blood Elf campaign or for some other reason?

I think it was possible for Illidan to trade items with Furion in the Blizzard campaign.

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I didn't want to vaguely state my assumptions so I studied the matter before posting. It seems I was correct. Illidan and Furion can trade items in the final NE chapter. Here's the proof:

So basically Shadow Orb going form Maiev -> Furion -> Illidan shouldn't pose a problem for either the Blizz or the 2P campaigns.

 

[MrStormyZ]

Hmm...

Are you trying to stop Illidan from having the Shadow Orb for balance issues later on for the Blood Elf campaign or for some other reason?

I think it was possible for Illidan to trade items with Furion in the Blizzard campaign.

-----------

I didn't want to vaguely state my assumptions so I studied the matter before posting. It seems I was correct. Illidan and Furion can trade items in the final NE chapter. Here's the proof:

So basically Shadow Orb going form Maiev -> Furion -> Illidan shouldn't pose a problem for either the Blizz or the 2P campaigns.

gota say pretty good observation..

 

[McQvaBlood]

I know of that bug, but I don't know yet how I want to handle it. I might even remove that. I am sure this was not meant by Blizzard. If this can only be done using Malfurion and Illidan, this will generate a need for Malfurion to hold all powerful items, therefore for Player One to hold all powerful items... And that is not a good thing.

I want to keep Illidan's part of the map isolated.

 

[Lich Prince]

Well, Blizzard not intending to do it doesn't exclude the fact that it's there.

I believe the item trading is a good thing, Maiev/Saithis would hold on to the items, then they'd give the selected few special ones to Furion (P1), and ultimately Illidan (P2- If this idea is executed). Actually, I think keeping Illidan's inventory clear on the final chapter is a pretty good idea. There is a huge amount of creeps (items) that Illidan can access, not to mention the special trade items he may get.

Even if the players don't follow the trading scheme, Illidan doesn't really need Saithis's inventory. Most of the easily-gainable items from the creeps are powerful. (Mask of Death, Crown of Kings, etc.)

 

[McQvaBlood]

Still, just as you said, I want to keep Illidan's inventory empty (Aside from the Orb of Kil'jaden, of course.) and that can only be done through placing four heroes on the map, with two of them getting all the items gathered so far and two of them starting with empty inventories.

That's why I want to make Tyrande playable in the first place.

So it would be: Malfurion (Player One's items) and Tyrande (Player Two's items) and Illidan (Empty) and some Naga. (Empty) Then you can trade around items if you so desire.

 

[tulee]

If you do try this you will do far more work on this chapter than you should. All you need to do is give Malfurion to player two and leave Illidan with player 1. I realize that it would mean switching the heroes up but it would simplify things. This mission was made for Illidan's side of the map to be an offensive campaign and for Malfurion's side to be a defensive campaign ( though you can rush one of malfurions enemies at the start and kill it, securing victory automatically)

All you need to do is make both sides a little harder, since with the player not having to focus on each side our micro will go up alot. Seriously, if you added two new heroes you would have to change So much in this map balance-wise, as the teams would get ridiculously overpowered. If you really want to incorporate this idea where Mal can help the right side, just make a nightelf structure in the Naga base that is a building that can create every night elf unit, under Mal's control. This way, you only need to rebalance the right side of the map, as Mal will make units only if he is controling the left side, which BTW he will not be able to do very often as his gold mines dies rather fast and is left with no resources.
BUT you don't need to incorporte this, you can still keep the original mission style except with the players having switched heroes. =p

 

[TheSpoon]

Phoar, complicated D:

Whats wrong with just
Illidan & Malfurion

Furion gets his items from both previous characters.
Illidan has to start over.
And then prevent them from trading.

?

I think that would be most like the campaign.

 

[McQvaBlood]

The problem here is if I did only that, the inventory of Player Two would either be completely removed or given to Player One or given to Illidan, none of which I want to do.

 

[TheSpoon]

Your choice,
But giving both inventories to player 1 seems most sensible to me.
But if you're willing to put in the extra effort for something crazy, why not? xD
It is the last mission after all.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Well, how would you feel if I took your Shadow Orb +10, Robe of the Magi +6, Claws of Attack +15, Ring of Protection +5, Pedant of Mana and Periapt of Health and gave it to another player for no good reason?

 

[TheSpoon]

A bit miffed maybe, but I think I'd accept it and move on.
Plus in my campaign, Grom/Nazgrel's inventories get removed completely when they're done.

 

[McQvaBlood]

That's different. You are simply removing some items, not giving it to another player. And that happened anyway. I don't want to get either player upset.