(Closed) Orc Sub-Hero(es)

[McQvaBlood]

Really. Right. Another summon would be an overkill.
Hmpf. Thrall's summon and his melee damage aura already synergies, so I guess that's alright.

 

[TheSpoon]

I thought the spell was fitting, seen as his meant to be a Shaman that focuses in enchanting his own weapons and abilities. So this would be the only spell associated with that so far.
What didn't you like about it?

 

[Deolrin]

That he has no magical abilities whatsoever.

 

[TheSpoon]

They're spells are they not? XD
Rest assured they will have magicy descriptions D:

I see your point though, he is a shaman xP


EDIT:
What about this;

Spell 1: Purge Strike (Attack) - An attack that deals extra dmg to the single target and damages all nearby targets. Dispels buffs from the area, and causes slowing to the target.


Perhaps one of you guys could think up a new ulti? I'm not happy with the one I've got.
Maybe something damaging? To do with the elements? And would support his 'character'?

 

[McQvaBlood]

Ultimate
Fury of the Horde

• For each allied unit nearby, all nearby units receive 3% damage and 3% attack speed boost for up to 60% damage and 60% attack speed.

 

[Azeroc]

Right, few suggestions for spells:

Spell 1: Thunder Shock - Releases thunder upon single enemy unit dealing initial X damage to the unit and electrifies him, which will make him to damage nearby units (enemy AND friendlies). If main target dies by thunder, it will discharge electricity making slam-like effect damaging nearby enemies. Each level increases initial damage, electrifying damage and discharge damage.

Spell 2:(Passive) Lightning Attack - Whenever caster attacks enemy, he has % chance to phase shift out of existence and after second or two caster will blink at attacking enemy dealing bonus damage and stunning it. Enemy must be in melee range. Each level increases chance, damage and stun duration.

Spell 3: Lightning Totem - Caster places a special totem on battlefield. The totem will give random speed boost (both attack speed and movement speed) for allies and then another random speed boost for enemies. Each level increases chance for allies to get bigger speed boost and for enemies to get lesser speed boost. Totem lasts 10 seconds.

Ultimate: Lightning Surge - Caster shapeshifts itself into massive lightning ball which will move randomly in x AoE for few seconds at high speed. Any enemy unit who was too close to lightning ball will be electrified. All electrified enemies will have reduced speed, attack speed and damage.

 

[TheSpoon]

Interesting spells! Although Az..
I like to keep the spells Wc3-esqe for these custom heroes.
And I don't want to make the Custom Heroes 'outshine' the original heroes too much.
(Which Nazgrel would certainly do to Thrall with a spellset like that o.o)
And I remind you of his character; a Shaman that enchances his combat abilities and loves a good fight.
And shamans can use all 3 elements, not just lightning Az xD

Saying that.. I do like the Ulti actually.
I might change it a bit though.

 

[Lich Prince]

Azeroc's Ultimate for Nazgrel is cool. I agree that it be implemented.

 

[takakenji]

I thought the spell was fitting, seen as his meant to be a Shaman that focuses in enchanting his own weapons and abilities. So this would be the only spell associated with that so far.
What didn't you like about it?

Sorry for being inactive on this topic, I was busy.

Those are what enhancement shamans are.

All their "spells" are basicly using the elements to enhance their physical strength and attack, EX:

(note, these arnt the real names of the spells, just examples of how the elements could improve you)

"Wind Speed"
"<insert any element name you want here>strike (ex, stormstrike, lavastrike, firestrike.)

Also, they do use magic, but it is mainly offensive magic which are AOE attacks that surround them (kind of like thunder clap)

ex:

"Fire Nova"
"Thunderstorm"

Shamans, of course, also use their ancestors and spirits. And, if you played the Rexxar campaign, you'd know Nazgrel is the last relative of Kash'Drakor, an orcish war hero who wielded Serathil during the Blood River War.
these are all just rough things you can build off of.

Also, Azeroc was a bit too lightning-oriented, Shamans control the entire variety of elements and spirits. Also, imo, I don't like the ultimate, shamans arn't really shapeshifters :/

Edit: I was reading back a bit and saw how Nazgrel becomes a "War Seer" to a "Fel Seer".

Not to be a lore maniac again, but Seer's a kind of like a powerful special sect of shamans, hence Drek'thar and Thrall were "Far Seers" but they're obviously also shamans. Shamans also share the same abilities Far Seers had in WoW (i believe they have everyone one now except for earthquake). Nazgrel would need to be a Warlock. Though, of course, we all know Warlock is boring, so I dug around wowwiki a bit and found this.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Fel-sworn

This is just the perspective of a lore-nazi, you can feel free to do the game however you want.

 

[Azeroc]

I did not really meant that all those spells what I suggested would be a spell-set, just that you pick one or two, should you like em.

 

[Lich Prince]

Wait, wait, takakenji said it. How about a Thunderstorm ability for an ultimate?

It's basically like Thunder Clap or War Stomp but without movement/attack speed reduction or a stun. Instead it has a cool knockback.

 

[TheSpoon]

Yea maybe : >

 

[McQvaBlood]

Yeah and it's simple enough that it won't outshine Thrall or Grom.

 

[Lich Prince]

Nothing can outshine Grom's Bladestorm...

I mean Spell Immunity + Mass Damage + AoE + Normal Attack...It's amazing!

 

[TheSpoon]

But.. almost anything will outshine Earthquake XD
God it sucks xP
A real base killer yes... but not fun otherwise D:

 

[Lich Prince]

True, poor Thrall. If only Blizzard allowed it to damage units and not just slow them abit before they get to the caster and rape the living shit out of him.

Seriously though, why the hell doesn't an Earthquake with pointy rocks coming out of the it's radius damage passing units?

Ok I'm getting too offtopic...

 

[TheSpoon]

Yes you are D:

Ok.. a revised spellset:

Spell 1 (Damage) = Purging Strike - An attack that causes X damage to all adjacent enemies. Slows the target and dispels buffs from the area. (Extra damage to summoned units)
Spell 2 (Support1) = Burning Blades - Causes all nearby melee allies' next attack to deal X additional damage. <perhaps an additional effect to this?>
Spell 3 (Support2) = Earth Shield - Provides X bonus armor to the target and Y additional maximum health.

The ulti I'm still not decided on, but that gives him a spell for each of the elements which I thought was nice : >

 

[Azeroc]

[Ultimate] - Elemental Blast - Calls down charged lightning with elemental power on the target. Firstly, a giant lightning would struck target for massive damage, then it will release either explosion or erupt the area around lightning. Explosion will damage all nearby enemy units. Eruption will deal very minor damage to all nearby enemy units, but will also slow them massively for couple seconds.

How about that?

 

[takakenji]

i have an idea too

"Strength of the Blood River"
In times of need, Nazgrel calls upon his legendary ancestors, Kash'drakor, hero of the Blood River War. Kash'Drakor becomes one with Nazgrel, and power surges through his body. His axe slowly begins to fade, and from it comes Serathil. Nazgrel gains "Serathil's Might" which is a temporary powerful cleaving attack, and extra movement speed + health and damage.

though, imo, i think the thunderstorm is still better

 

[Deolrin]

TheSpoon and takakenji, sounds awesome.

But non of the spells will fit the corrupted version. So I advise to completely change the skillset of Nazgrel after he gets corrupted, similarly to how Shamans become Warlocks.

 

[TheSpoon]

So, would you prefer a slam/thunderclap style spell instead of Spell 1?

And erm.. what kinda magics to Warlocks have?

 

[Twizter]

Warlocks have fel/dark magic. Shamans have nature magic. Your gonna have to either re-do his spells now or when he turns fel since it wouldn't make much sense to have a shamanic fel orc; all the shamans turn to warlocks when you get to the fountain.

 

[Deolrin]

Shamans have elemental magic(water, earth, fire, wind) not nature magic. Warlocks have fel, demonic magic, not shadow\dark magic. As in lots of fire and blood and evil stuff.

 

[takakenji]

yeah, shamans usually have elemental magics and they can also commune with the spirits of the elements and their ancestors.

warlocks are completely destructive and all their magics are fel, shadow, fire, etc.

 

[Twizter]

Ah, sorry then, my bad >.>

 

[TheSpoon]

I just replayed the whole orc campaign (with cheats lol : p)

A few things I noticed:

- In Chapter 2, it would be quite ok for the players to use Cairne in my opinion. Wouldn't really affect much at all. So I think that I will.
- In Chapter 3, it might also be ok for the players to use Grom & his base. I could even make the first wave that causes the chatter to controlled by the computer so it is unstoppable.
- Then Thrall's items disappear for 2 chapters!
- And after Chapters 4&5, Grom's inventory disappears for good!
- I'm not sure whether to include 'Fel Nazgrel' in chapter 8
- I believe I will have to alter Chapter 7 so that Cairne's part of the level is a bit lengthier and exciting. (The players will be doing it at the same time)
- I may make Chapter 8 into a special chapter, which is an optional '3 player chapter', so you can put Jaina to a computer or a human player.
- I have absolutely no idea what I'd do for the Orc custom chapter. 'Kill Mannoroth', yes and what else?

 

[McQvaBlood]

Ah, damn, this does not sound good. I hope you change your mind about these.

 

[Lich Prince]

Same here, the only two things I agree on are the "Epic Mannoroth Battle" & Chapter 8's extra Jaina player. Just make sure you give Player 1/2 both Thrall and Cairne if the slots are empty.

 

[takakenji]

why would you play alone

 

[Lich Prince]

You misunderstood. Incase there's 3 places, I'd choose Jaina, so my friend has to choose either Cairne or Thrall. I suggested to make my friend control both.

 

[Twizter]

I agree with Lich Prince. Not much of these sound good to me D=.

About the Mannoroth battle, you could make it just a boss fight, or have Thrall and Grom do some tasks, fight some mobs and stuff till you get to him

 

[takakenji]

it could be them traveling to the demon canyon

because you start out in stonetalon all the way to the demon canyon in ashenvale, that's pretty long

they never actually said what happens inbetween, you could create that

then of course in the end theres the grom dies blah blah sacrifice free yay

 

[Lich Prince]

Awesome idea takakenji.

TheSpoon, he has a good idea, I think you should focus on the Journey to Demon canyon in Ashenvale and then maybe add the Mannoroth fight. If I remember my WoW zones correctly, there's a little cave shortcut from Stonetalon to Ashenvale.

 

[TheSpoon]

@takakenji
I played it alone to find out more of the Campaign?

I'll probably use Nazgrel in the bonus mission.
And I guess you could fight burning legion demons, and fel orcs, and him.

Seen as you dislike the other changes, lemmi just explain them a little.

- For chapter 2, it would be stupid not to use Cairne as the 2nd player. He helps to defend the Caravan and thats it, so having P2 do this would be better right? Having 3 heroes defend the caravan would be silly!

- For chapter 3, I'm not 100% I'm going to do this yet. I just thought it'd be a little more fun if it was done like this.

How come you guys don't like those changes much?

 

[McQvaBlood]

I was always against changing an AI player or making it controllable when it constitutes the structure of the map. That's why I proposed the change to NE02 in the first place, because it was the only map in my opinion where the AI player was not crucial to the map's structure. (Although thinking about it now, maybe even this is too much of a change. Yes, perhaps my idea was also wrong.)

On chapter 2, Cairne has a very powerful force to defend the caravan, but he's not very smart when using them. (Injured units do not retreat, he spreads his forces, so on.) If you were to allow using those several Taurens, you would make the orc force much more powerful and you could easily beat any neutral enemy. (Which cannot be done if you're playing on hard difficulty.)

On chapter 3, Grom cannot be controlled. The map is about making Grom attack several camps, not just one. The point of the map is to prove that Thrall cannot control Grom, so he can be sent away. That would be quite at odds with the fact that the other player can still control him.

And lastly, it would mess up hero control.
Ch. 1 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Nazgrel
Ch. 2 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Cairne
Ch. 3 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Grom
Ch. 4 - P1 = Grom; P2 = Nazgrel
Ch. 5 - P1 = Grom; P2 = Nazgrel
OR
Ch. 1 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Nazgrel
Ch. 2 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Cairne
Ch. 3 - P1 = Thrall; P2 = Grom
Ch. 4 - P1 = Nazgrel; P2 = Grom
Ch. 5 - P1 = Nazgrel; P2 = Grom

You see, both players would have to play the same hero some time into the game and that's just silly.

A smart idea would be to always do this:
The original player's forces are divided into two forces and if there are not enough heroes, a new one is added. This was a principle that worked for two campaigns and it'd feel awkward to change it.
That's why I've proposed the original layout.
Ch 1 - You control Thrall. -> You control Thrall's forces with Thrall and Nazgrel. Cairne is controlled by the computer.
Ch 2 - You control Thrall. -> You control Thrall's forces with Thrall and Nazgrel. Cairne is controlled by the computer.
Ch 3 - You control Thrall. -> You control Thrall's forces with Thrall and Nazgrel. Grom is controlled by the computer.
Ch 4 - You control Grom. -> You control Grom's forces with Grom and Nazgrel.
Ch 5 - You control Grom. -> You control Grom's forces with Grom and Nazgrel.
Ch 6 - You control Thrall and Cairne. -> You control Thrall's forces with Grom and Cairne.
Ch 6 - You control Thrall and Cairne. -> You control Thrall's forces with Grom and Cairne.
Ch 6 - You control Thrall and Cairne. -> You control Thrall's forces with Grom and Cairne.

 

[Deolrin]

Also, I think that Nazgrel should be gone after the Grom missions in orc campaign and have a comeback in the 'take over magtheridon's citadel' mission as a hero instead of one of the blademasters, because all those blademasters get boring. ^^

And I agree with McQvaBlood.

 

[Twizter]

I've got nothing against those changes, but its just like McQvaBlood said, if you get control of Cairne, the orcs become too overpowered. On missions where AI control isn't that important (like Jaina in the last campaign being optional), its ok, but otherwise it becomes too easy or too hard


EDIT : Im not sure about chapter 3 though, I guess you could do that

 

[Azeroc]

So? It's already on "Hard" by default and Spoon can easily increase enemy ambush sizes in that Caravan defense, for example.

 

[Twizter]

You've got a point there...

Anyways, its all down to what Spoon wants to do ;o

 

[TheSpoon]

But surely,

2 heroes and 1 defending the caravan
Is easier than
2 heroes and 0 defending the caravan

You're saying giving control over Cairne makes the level too easy?
I really don't understand that arguement.
Also, controlling Cairne in the 2nd map doesn't create any awquard control problems

And as for the Grom map, I just thought it might be a waste of an opportunity for the 'perfect' 2 player campaign map.
(Perhaps we could even do what we're doing on the last level)


EDIT: Debode, Magtheridon's Orcs in outland are completely seperate from the Blackrock Clan. They were corrupted individually and aren't linked. So that wouldn't work.

 

[Lich Prince]

Guys...Can we stick on not changing the Orc campaigns' AIs please? (except Jaina thing =P)

I think minor changes benefit the game-play but these huge changes don't sound too good.
ex: Giving control of Shandris's base in NE2, that wouldn't change alot, since she just stands there and we need an extra hero. But in O3, come on, you're giving a player a full base with Grom? and you guys complain about other chapters getting too easy?

Oh and McQ, did you typo abit in your hero control part? I couldn't understand it =P.

 

[McQvaBlood]

Oh, it's not just the heroes.

It's either, Thrall's forces and two heroes having to clear ALL the obstacles, while Cairne sits around doing nothing

OR

Cairne's 4+ Taurens owning every obstacle.

Taurens cannot be controlled until the sixth map and there's a reason for it. They're high tier units with huge hit points and a powerful attack.

@LichPrince: What do you mean by that?

 

[Deolrin]

I actually thought that Magheridon's hordes are the orcs of the Warsong clan. Only Grom was cleansed, not his whole Warsong clan?

 

[TheSpoon]

I never said that you would control the Taurens, just Cairne.
And on insane mode, the Taurens will probably not even be there.
As I said, O2 is the only one I reckon I'm definitely going to change.

But for O3 I thought I'd hear your guys opinions first.

 

[McQvaBlood]

@Debode: In Wc2, Medivh opened the 'Dark Portal' and the orcs came through and began attacking Lordaeron. At the ending of Wc2, the Dark Portal was destroyed, but the rift between the worlds remained and so the orcs attacked again in Wc2x. They were pushed back into the Portal, but Ner'zhul's Death Knights stole the Book of Medivh.
Khadgar and a number of alliance heroes went through the portal to retrieve the Book from Ner'zhul, then an orc shaman. They did recover the Book, but not before Ner'zhul learned the secrets of establishing the gates, which would later become the Portals of Outland. (Which you seal with Illidan on HumanX 5.)
The portals' energy were about to decimate Dreanor, so Khadgar and the alliance heroes decided to destroy the Dark Portal on the Dreanor side, sacrificing themselves.

This is how the Dreanor Orcs and Azeroth Orcs lost contact.

@TheSpoon: If you're going to change O2, then you can also change O3. Just make a new cinematic where Grom attacks the humans. (I don't like your previous idea to make the attack unstoppable. Simply make a cinematic in which Grom attacks.)

Although the items will still be messed up if you're intent on deleting Grom's items after the fifth map.
I mean, on the first map you'll have Thrall and Nazgrel.
On the third map, you hand over Nazgrel's items to Grom.
On the fourth map, what was Nazgrel's items are now Grom's and Nazgrel starts with an empty inventory.
On the sixth map, both inventories are gone and Thrall has his items from O3 and Cairne has nothing.

 

[TheSpoon]

Oh I didn't mean that I was intent on doing that.
I was just saying that is what DOES happen and perhaps we need to think about working around it.
I realised that there would be some problems.

 

[McQvaBlood]

- Orc 2:
If you don't grant control of Taurens, then I've ran out of arguments. I agree, enable Cairne.

- Grom Items:
I know that they do disappear and I don't want you to get frustrated.
However, do note that you're making the second player's items disappear as well.
(By handing over Nazgrel's items to Grom and then deleting his items.)

Not giving control of Grom on the third map only solves half of this as Nazgrel still takes the second player's items and make them disappaer then.

I only see one (EDIT two complete and flawless ways here, the Grom part has to be COMPLETELY seperated from the Thrall part.
As if the Grom missions would be a mini-campaign inside the campaign. And of course, the only way to do that is to have TWO side-kick heroes. I know I was the first one to raise my voice against making two heroes, but it's the only way I see now.

Ch. 1 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Blackrock Sidekick (Inventory #2)
Ch. 2 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Blackrock Sidekick/Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 3 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Blackrock Sidekick (Inventory #2)
Ch. 4 - Grom (Inventory #3) and Warsong Sidekick (Inventory #4)
Ch. 5 - Grom (Inventory #3) and Warsong Sidekick (Inventory #4)
Ch. 6 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 7 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 8 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)

And there we go, all our previous problems have been solved.
Both players can keep their items, the Warsong items can disappear without making either player angry for losing all their items.
Nazgrel does not get corrupted and so we don't mess up the lore and a whole new Warsong hero can still be designed.

Yeah, and we can put in an Easter Egg, because the Blackrock Sidekick will never get to learn his ultimate. (So we can add something funny.)

EDIT: Alternatively, Thrall sends Nazgrel away, but ehm... keeps his items, somehow?

Ch. 1 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Nazgrel (Inventory #2)
Ch. 2 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Nazgrel/Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 3 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Nazgrel (Inventory #2)
Ch. 4 - Grom (Inventory #3) and Nazgrel (New Inventory (Inventory #4))
Ch. 5 - Grom (Inventory #3) and Nazgrel (Inventory #4)
Ch. 6 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 7 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)
Ch. 8 - Thrall (Inventory #1) and Cairne (Inventory #2)

 

[Twizter]

Second alternative sounds better. It might not make much sense, but I think alot of players would agree that its better than losing your stuff xD

 

[TheSpoon]

Thrall's clan is Frostwolf, not Blackrock x3
You also have to keep in mind that the code system can really only hold 12 items at a time. (2 inventories), so this is what I'm thinking.

O1: Thrall/Nazgrel
O2: Thrall/Cairne
O3: Thrall/NazgrelORGrom
<At this point you are given a code that must be loaded onto chapter 6>
<No code is needed for the next chapter>
O4: Grom/Nazgrel
<A code is given for 05 like normal>
O5: Grom/Nazgrel
<At this point the items for 04/05 are lost>
<Now you use your code from O3>
<Continue as normal>
O6: Thrall/Cairne
O7: Thrall/Cairne
O8: Thrall/Cairne (and Jaina!)

 

[McQvaBlood]

Sounds a'right.