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(Closed) Orc Sub-Hero(es)

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TheSpoon

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The 2-Player Campaign
Orc Sub-Hero(es)

I was wondering if you guys could help me determine the best suitable hero for the Orc Campaign.
As you should know the chapters themselves are pretty complicated in the way they work.

LIST OF CURRENT HEROES IN CHAPTERS:
Orc 1 = Thrall
Orc 2 = Thrall
Orc 3 = Thrall
Orc 4 = Grom
Orc 5 = Grom
Orc 6 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 7 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 8 = Thrall + Cairne

Due to the layout of the chapters, some suggested it would be better to have 2 sub-heroes. (One used for 1 + 2, one used for 4 + 5)

LIST OF POSSIBLE HEROES:
- Drek'thar (Far Seer/Shaman)
- Nazgrel (Raider/Shaman)
- Rok'han (Shadow Hunter)


What do you guys think would be the best choice to make?
 
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Vol'jin didn't travel with Thrall to Kalimdor, you know that. Actually, Vol'jin seems to NEVER have set foot anywhere on Durator besides the Echo Isles before Rexxar/WoW stuff.

Drek'thar might work. But meh, two Farseer heroes?

Nazgrel is the best choice in my opinion. He came with Thrall and is hot-headed enough to be with Grom. Can also be transformed to a Fel Orc for the Cenarius part. More Nazgrel offstuff can be also added later.

Rokhan is also a good choice. BUT, what will you have to do in Grom's Chapter 5? Ok, the troops have chaos attack, but come on, the hero will be totally useless vs. Cenarius except to heal abit. Not to mention in Insane difficulty. I don't know, I don't like this guy.
 
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I think it's a stupid idea to make both heroes play Grom or the supporting hero at some point. His control was not enabled by Blizzard on Chapter 3 and so he should not be made into the supporting character. I propose this change:

Orc 1 = Thrall + Supporting (Cairne controlled by AI)
Orc 2 = Thrall + Supporting (Cairne controlled by AI)
Orc 3 = Thrall + Supporting (Hellscream controlled by AI)
Orc 4 = Hellscream + Supporting
Orc 5 = Hellscream + Supporting
Orc 6 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 7 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 8 = Thrall + Cairne

It's more clean without unnecessary sudden changes to who plays who.

Also, on Chapter 3, actually it's very important that you do NOT have control over Hellscream, as he goes against the orders of Thrall and attacks the humans. This is an important plot point, as this is why Thrall sends him away into Ashenvale. How would you want to make him attack the humans while he's under player control besides the obvious disable player control, which would actually make no sense.
The only solution I can see if you're so dead set on enabling Hellscream is that you make a new cinematic in which all the original lines play while Hellscream attacks and you can see a smaller battle that Hellscream can actually win on his own, because killing player 2's hero is not a very nice thing to do. (He would always lose against the human bases without your help. Makes you wonder why he bothers attacking them.)

Besides this, I won't support the corrupting of Naz'grel. I doubt he would have received a high rank like the one he had in the Rexxar campaign if he was ever corrupted.
I support Rokhan.
I also don't think you should be doing the extra work of creating two heroes for two missions each. One custom hero is enough.
 
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Give player control Cairne 1 and 2 level. So only Grom part need some hero.
Don't begin with those, please.

McQvaBlood, making Nazgrel fel or giving a wierd excuse for Rokhan to get chaos attack will either way affect the lore abit. Plus, Grom is probably the most corrupted fucked up orc of all time, and with 1 honorable action, he became the most honored. So this little corruption thingy wouldn't be a big deal compared to all the other good things Nazgrel did (Extremely loyal to Thrall, help with Battle of Mount Hyjal, etc...).

Here's a little quote from wowwiki:
Nazgrel despises the Alliance, and humans in particular. He views Thrall's continued insistence that the humans can be reasoned with to be a weakness, and feels that victory through war is the only way that the Alliance will end their persecution of the Horde. However, Nazgrel is completely loyal to his Warchief, and thus does not act on his opinions.

So I think this specific Orc is perfect for the supporting hero for Thrall AND Grom.

Oh and I also think 1 custom is hero is enough.
 

TheSpoon

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I do agree that Grom should be AI controlled in chapter 3, so I am removing him from the list.

I also agree that I'd prefer if we use just 1 custom hero.

Also, which chapter do the orcs become corrupted in?
Because Nazgrel could perhaps leave before that happens.

And yes, it appears Vol'jin is out of the question.
 
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A troll hero would solve this.
The trolls do not get corrupted. When it comes to killing Cenarius, Grom and his chaos orcs will easily kill him. Otherwise, grant both players fel units as normal, and do not change the Troll's attack to chaos.

It will allow Rokhan or some other troll hero to stay.

Problem solved and really, since we're using the frozen throne attack and armor types, the only difference between a Hero and a Chaos attack is that the latter actually deals damage to Divine Armor.

Introducing a whole new hero for half a mission would even be dumber then for two-two missions each.
 

TheSpoon

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I see three possible routes for this:

- Rok'han - Follows Grom on his mission, does not get corrupted, and leaves Grom at the end of Mission 5.
- 'Madeuptroll' - Follows Grom on his mission, does not get corrupted, stays with Grom
- Nazgrel - Follows Grom on his mission, gets corrupted, gets de-corrupted at the end of the campaign
 
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I'd go with Rokhan or madeuptroll.
A Troll Berserker hero would be awesome.

Also, what color for the new orc team?
Red = Thrall
Blue = Jaina's forces
Purple = Grom
Orange = Cairne
Gray = Jaina's forces
Light Blue = Jaina
Brown = Centaurs

That leaves us with Teal, Yellow, Green, Pink, Dark Green.
None of them look that great as Orc.
 
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3rd choice. Nobody has to stay at the base and play "stay boy". This WHOLE chapter is about killing Cenarius. Extra defense will do 0 help. Kill all the Night Elf bases or defend for 5 hours, nothing happens. The whole 2 Player Campaign is about teamwork. You're basically crippling half the players' ability to kill Cenarius on Insane.

The other hero will most probably get Fel units but it's not about the units, it's about the hero.

EDIT: I think yellow is cool =P.
 

TheSpoon

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I think I will use Nazgrel. It doesn't matter if he becomes corrupt for a while, we'd be affecting the lore just as much by making a new character.
I'm not sure whether to have him as a Shaman or Raider.
In the TFT campaign he is a Raider,
But in WoW he is a Shaman.
(Did you know he is also one of the possible Far Seer names in melee lol)
A shaman would be a more exciting hero to work with too.
 
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Green, Fel, Shaman, Raider, Farseer....I don't care about his looks as long as he gets a Chaos attack.

So the Shaman idea is cool. Maybe it's good that he remains green, as in not that corrupted. Like he retains part of his will and goes to Thrall or something, wouldn't rape the lore much like this.
 
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That model is fugly =P. Use it if you want though.

Quote from Wowwiki:

The only instance in which fel orcs were active on Azeroth was during the Third War. Mannoroth tricked Grom Hellscream and his Warsong warriors into drinking his blood from a tainted fountain of health. Grom later overcame the blood haze with the help of Thrall and Jaina Proudmoore and slew Mannoroth, thus freeing both the fel orcs and the orcs that had been corrupted by Manoroth on Draenor.
 
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Nazgrel wouldn't fit being corrupted at all, since I don't think he was part of the Warsong. Also, whoever said he is hotheaded, he isn't, I have no idea were you got that. Nazgrel was actually very calm, which is why he's an advisor to Thrall. I think the best option to make a new orc up who will most likely die when Thrall tries to free Grom of the corruption.

And no, Grom's death didn't free the orcs, Mannoroth's death did. Before the orcs turned green, they were brown. After Mannoroth made them drink their blood to seal the blood pact, Grom was the first to drink to accept the power he promised them. They turned green after drinking the blood and the overuse of fel magics, and eventually turned red after even further corruption from drinking more blood. After Grom destroyed Mannoroth and fixed his mistake he made nearly a hundred years ago (Grom and many other orc's lives were extended much longer due to the fel magic) he not only freed himself, but all the orcs of the Blood Pact. Which is why Grom says he has freed himself at the end of the cinematic, and Thrall replies with "No, you have freed us all."

Also, it's literally impossible to be a Fel Orc shaman. Once you become a Fel Orc, the spirits leave you. Which is how the Ner'zhul knew the Demons were tricking them when he realized the Spirits were leaving them and these new magics were not the real ones, but it was too late then.

Nazgrel was never you're typical "Spell-Casting Shaman". Speaking in WoW terms, he was always an "Enhancement" Shaman, which is basically a "Battle Shaman" who uses the spirits of the elements to aid him in melee combating and fighting rather then spellcasting from a distance.
 

TheSpoon

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"Nazgrel wouldn't fit being corrupted at all, since I don't think he was part of the Warsong"
I can't really use a Warsong clan member as the hero, because for the begining of the campaign I think they're considered "missing"

"Grom's death didn't free the orcs, Mannoroth's death did"
I didn't mean it like that, Grom kills Mannoroth, so he freed them?

"Also, it's literally impossible to be a Fel Orc shaman. Once you become a Fel Orc, the spirits leave you."
Fair point..

Also.. does this Blood Pact thing go back further than RoC?
I'm a little confused
 
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Yeah, it appears. Though you really don't need to make a Fel Orc Shaman at all.

You can have a Shaman with supportive abilities and then a Warlock with these support abilities turned into something more offensive.
For example, the original (unit) conversion included turning the Purge, which sort of stunned and then slowed and removed buffs into a damage stun (Fireball), as well as replacing Bloodlust with Frenzy. (More attack speed, but drains hit points as opposed to less attack speed and some movement speed.) And finally the useless Lightning Shield replaced by Cripple, a powerful single target slow.

So now the hero would convert using the same pattern.
Okay, this example is going to be stupid, but let's assume Orc Hero had Healing Wave, so Fel Orc Hero would have some kind of Chain Lightning. If he had a Far Sight, that would be replaced by something totally different. (And much more destructive) And so on.
 
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"Nazgrel wouldn't fit being corrupted at all, since I don't think he was part of the Warsong"
I can't really use a Warsong clan member as the hero, because for the begining of the campaign I think they're considered "missing"

"Grom's death didn't free the orcs, Mannoroth's death did"
I didn't mean it like that, Grom kills Mannoroth, so he freed them?

"Also, it's literally impossible to be a Fel Orc shaman. Once you become a Fel Orc, the spirits leave you."
Fair point..

Also.. does this Blood Pact thing go back further than RoC?
I'm a little confused

The Bloodpact existed before WC1. Here is a bit of Orc lore.

The Orcs use to be brown skinned, and they were honorable war-enjoying (but not vicious warmongers like they were) and spiritual people. When the Draenei came, the Orcs welcomed them warmly. The wisest and most powerful of orcish shamans, Ner'zhul, would regularly speak with the spirit of his wife. After many years of hunting, Kil'jaeden finally found Draenor (The planet was named by the Draenei, the Orcish name is unknown). Kil'jaeden took interest in the orcs, and decided to use them to slaughter the Draenei. Kil'jaeden disguised himself as Ner'zhuls wife and began telling him about Warlock Magics, saying Shamanism was not the original way of the ancestors and the Warlock Magics are the correct way. Ner'zhul managed to spread the Warlockism to nearly all of the Orcish Clans, except for the Frostwolf Clan (Thrall's Clan.) Gul'Dan was the most active of the Warlocks, who was ironically Ner'zhuls apprentice.

After driving the orcs deep into corruption, Ner'zhul's "Wife" introduced him to Kil'Jaeden, the "Great One". Ner'zhul was happy that he was saving his people, and getting the respect he secretly desired. With Ner'zhuls trust, Kil'jaeden told him about the Draenei and how they were truly evil. Ner'zhul convinced the other Orcish clans to attack the Draenei. Though, Ner'zhul became suspicious. The more he saw of the Draenei, the more he realized they looked VERY similar to Kil'jaeden. He also has a specific hatred for Velen, who was the Draeneis leader and their holiest being, besides the Naaru.

Ner'zhul confronted Oshu'gun, the Great Mountain of Spirits (Which was actually a large crystal, which is the original ship the Draenei used to come to Draenor)

Ner'zhul was horrified to see the spirits greeting him as a monstrosity. He saw his real wife, and she told him everything, about how Kil'jaeden had minipulated them.

Ner'zhul tried to spread this news, but Gul'dan, the greedy and powerhungry orc he was, told Kil'jaeden of the betrayal. For his loyalty, Gul'dan was promoted to Ner'zhuls power and Ner'zhul was demoted to nothing, and stripped entirely of his powers. Ner'zhul was forced to watch his race drive into the bloodlust that he started.

Though, Gul'dan grew overconfident, knowing that Ner'zhul could do nothing... or do much. He let Ner'zhul acess all his files and dark documents of the Warlocks. He discovered that Kil'jaeden intended on giving the Blood of Mannoroth to the Orcs, completely sealing the Orcs loyalty to the Demons and empowering them greatly, but corrupting them in the process. Ner'zhul knew that with Gul'dans newly recieved influence none of the Chieftains would listen to him, except one, Durotan of the Frostwolf Clan and future father of Thrall.

As a result of Ner'zhul's warnings, Durotan, Chieftain of the Frostwolves, refused to drink the blood of Mannoroth, and saved them from the Blood Pact. Though, they had already been affected by the Warlock taint, and over time turned green aswell. Alas, Durotan and his mate Draka were the only people aware of Ner'zhul's.

Eventually, Draka and Durotan were assassinated, with their knowledge lost. Then, a lot of other stuff happened after the Second War, but it's way too much to explain.

Also, if you're wondering the origins of the Draenei and why Kil'jaeden hates them and velen and why they look alike, I'll type it here.

Sargeras was once the brother of Aman'thul, the most powerful titan and the leader of the Pantheon, the council of the strongest titans. Sargeras was a powerful and proud defender. Though, after he slew demon after demon, he started to venture deep into the nether. He eventually began to lose hope of the pantheon, and was slowly driven to madness. He fully turned to the dark side, and created the Burning Legion. The earliest known members of the Burning Legion were the Nathrezim and Tothrezim (Dreadlords, and a Dreadlord subspecies which work as assassins and spies)

Sargeras needed powerful spellcasters into his army, and he found interest into the arcanic Eredar. Over 21,000 years ago, Sargeras approached the three most powerful and leaders of the Eredar, Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Velen, on their crystalline homeplanet of Argus. The three shared a very close bond, but Kil'jaeden and Velen had the strongest of the three and would die for eachother. Though the Eredar were not evil, they were always willing to discover new magics and power, whatever the cost. Sargeras offered the three Eredar leaders great power and new magics in exchange for loyalty. Archimonde and Kil'jaeden gladly accepted, but Velen needed more time to think. In his dreams, his was contacted by the Naaru and they told him everything of the dark magics. Velen and his followers, known as the Draenei, or 'exiled ones' in Eredun, fleed from Argus to other distant planets. Eventually, Kil'jaeden and Velen went from an unbreakable friendship to a deep hatred. The corrupted eredar were eventually renamed the Man'ari Eredar. Man'ari meant "twisted" or "sinister" in Eredun. For over 20,000 years, Velen and his followers have fled from planet to planet, seeing only massacre and blood slaughter wherever they go. The worst of these slaughters were the Draenei-Orcish wars, were their long lasting Orcish allies betrayed them. This slaughter was so devastating, the only surviviors were enough to populate a small town. This town was Telredor, which was a small Draenei town built on the giant mushrooms of Zangarmarsh, were they hid and were safe for many years untill Illidan came. When he came, Kael'thas attempted to take over The Exodar (which was not one building, but a large group of buildings. The current Exodar was the largest of them). The Draenei were able to escape with the largest of the flying citadels, but Kael'thas took the rest and renamed it Tempest Keep and used it as his own citadel.

Though Kil'jaeden's undying hatred for the Draenei continues, he cannot carry out his plans as easily as before, for their new homeland, Azeroth, has bested the burning legion over five times.
 

TheSpoon

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An interesting read.
Answered a few questions I'd been holding xD

Still, with all this interesting information, I don't think it actually affects me choosing Nazgrel as a hero.

Yes, I know that allowing him to drink the Blood of Mannoroth and becoming a Fel Orc for a short while is twisting the lore a bit.
When Grom kills Mannoroth, he WILL go back to the way we know him today.
To be fair, there isn't much on Nazgrel before you see him in Rexxar's campaign.

Also with the other information you gave me earlier, I think I will have him as a Raider model, but with Shaman-ish support skills. As you described him.

What class do you think I should call him?
Shaman / Raider / Battleshaman / Advisor ?
 
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I think Overseer or Advisor would be well. Since if shaman/raider are chosen then a second part must be added to the class to describe the extra abilities (ex. Battleshaman, Raiderwithmagicstuff..).
 

TheSpoon

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Did some brain storming with my friend.

Came up with a few:
- Warseer
- Warshaman
- Spirit Warlord
- Spellsavage

Possible new models:
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...raider-146324/?prev=search=raider&d=list&r=20
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/wolfrider-47405/?prev=search=raider&d=list&r=20
http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...outrider-161649/?prev=search=seer&d=list&r=20 <- Even has a shaman hat!

I wanted to stray away from Raider, and towards something that meant; Shaman-Warrior
 
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I think it would be best to have:
Orc 1 = Thrall+Grom(They are separate and don't have visions of each other, each has a different goal to reach)
Orc 2 = Thrall+Cairne
Orc 3 = Thrall+Grom(Grom's main mission is to destroy all of the human bases)
Orc 4 = Grom+Any random Warsong warrior OR Nazgrel
Orc 5 = Grom+Any random Warsong warrior OR Nazgrel
Orc 6 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 7 = Thrall + Cairne
Orc 8 = Thrall + Cairne

EDIT: I have an idea to make having Nazgrel make sense. Thrall could have sent him to report on what Grom did later, or something like that. But in the end he joins with Grom and drinks from the fountain. If you're using my model I'll make a corrupt version as well. :)

Also... My Frostwolf Outrider has Grom's texture and shape for his head, do you want that to be changed?

As for his class... Well, why not Far Seer? It's his actual class after all.

P.S. I love your project!
 
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TheSpoon

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I don't want to change the campaign too much debode.
Changing chapter 1 to include Grom would need a lot of work.
..Can't remember chapter 2.
And Chapter 3, Grom MUST be controlled by AI in order for the level to work properly

But I'm really glad that you've contacted me,
Because I just realised that I would need a fel version of the model yes : >
Using Grom's head for that model isn't that bad, because you've got it mostly covered by his hat. (But if I'm not 100% sure I like the Black Beard thingie)
The other thing that concerns me is that this is a ranged model? I kinda wanted a melee model.
I'm still thinking about it though, so I wouldn't go out of the way to make anything new yet xP

Nazgrel isn't really a Far Seer.. although WoWWiki says he is, its mainly because one of the Far Seer's possible random names is Nazgrel.
 
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Second Chapter is when Thrall escorts Cairne and his caravans to Mulgore.

As for Nazgrel, Warseer sounds AMAZING. Debode's model also looks good as him, and Debode's also awesome enough to make a corrupted version <3.
 
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http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/fel-orc-outrider-176423/

Of course it's a melee model. He has an axe after all. Although he DOES uses Thrall's animations, making him look sorta like a mage I guess? I don't know.

But it's all about changing the campaign a bit; just making it play the same with two heroes isn't that interesting. If you include more changes, people will play it more and will like it more, because it will be different. :)
Besides, Thrall was looking for Grom all over the place in Chapter 1. So it would only make sense that he landed before Thrall somewhere and quickly found the human base.
 
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Ah, I thought it would be more professional than that, with full MSN discussions and stuff like that. Nevermind... Now, lets see. I'm guessing he is an offensive support hybrid hero, with focus on both spells and melee combat. Since Grom is an agility hero who excels at taking down single units and heroes, Nazgrel must be a support hero, either str or int. Grom can already tank out a lot of damage, so str would not fit. The only option I see is Intelligence, with agility being a secondary stat(he should always have more agility than strength). He should have useful spells that help his allies in combat; at least one 'buff' type of spell and one damage spell. He should not have more than two damage spells, technically no hero has two active damage spells. He should have an aura of sorts, too - preferably something that helps spellcasters. And finally, the ultimate is fully customizable and thus I wont get into it.

Let me clarify one thing to you however:
Strength means the hero can take a lot of punishment. A strength hero will typically have a lot of health and armor, at the expense of damage and speed. A tank hero.
Agility means the hero can deal a lot of damage at a quick rate. An agility hero will typically have lots of damage and speed, at the expense of health and armor.
Intelligence means the hero relies heavily on spells. An intelligence hero will typically have lots of mana and mana regeneration and his spells will be extremely useful, most of the time far more useful than his usual damage, at the expense of damage, health and armor.

There are of course 'hybrids' who have the elements of both attributes. For example, an intelligence hero who is fast and has more damage than the typical intelligence hero. This sort of hero, however, will have less health and armor than a typical intelligence hero, for example.
 
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Debode, Agility heroes have the highest armor in Wc3.

Anyway, I'm changing my mind. My vote goes for Strength (tank). Since it would fit with all the other heroes in the chapters.

O1: Int + Str
O2: Int + Str
O3: Int + Str
O4: Agi + Str
O5: Agi + Str
O6: Int + Str
O7: Int + Str
O8: Int + Str
 

TheSpoon

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I think I'm gonna go with Strength, with Intelligence as a secondary attribute.
But overall Nazgrel is gonna be a pretty all-round hero.

And don't worry about the spells.
I'll design them, then upload them, and you guys can criticise.
Not sure what I'm gonna do for his ulti though!

I think this is pretty resolved now : >!


The sub hero will be:
Nazgrel - War Seer (Strength atr hero)
His spells will based on supporting himself and allies in close combat.
And he will feature in levels 1-5
Using these models by Debode: http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/...der-161649/?prev=search=frostwolf&d=list&r=20 and http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/models-530/fel-orc-outrider-176423/


Although one thing concerns me. The model might look quite poop as a melee hero. (No offense debode, they're great models)
I'm gonna import it and check.
EDIT: Just tested it, they're both great for melee : >! (I always thought Thrall and Far Seer used the same animations xD)
One thing though Debode, could you add a portrait model to your Fel Rider? Or atleast a portrait camera.

EDIT2: Quickly designed some spells. What you guys think?
Spell 1: Cleaving Sweep (Attack) - An attack that deals extra dmg to the single target and cleaves all nearby targets. Also causes bleeding? (Damage over time)
Spell 2: Battlethirst Aura (Aura) - Melee units are given additional damage. (Like trueshot)
Spell 3: Vigour (Spell) - Target ally restores life over time and a temporary bonus to health maximum.
Ulti?: Chrorus of the Horde - All nearby allies recieve additional attack and armor points for 10 seconds. This buff's duration resets everytime any of the effected units kills an enemy unit.

And when he becomes a Fel, Vigour is replaced with Frenzy.

Hows that sound? - Open to suggestions, I'm not 100% content with them really.
 
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Oh, I forgot to attach the portrait when updating, sorry. Fixed now.
I dislike the name of 'Chorus of the Horde', and it would be great if you replace 'Cleave' with some other active spell, one I had in mind is... The Far Seer(uncorrupted) Nazgrel can summon an Earth Elemental, and the Warlock(corrupted) Nazgrel can summon a Succubus or Felguard or Fel Stalker(blue) or something.
 
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