Blizzard Releases Warlords of Draenor Cinematic Trailer

[Chaosy]

Blizzard published the following cinematics mere minutes ago.
They also confirmed the WoD release date, november the 14th 2014

WoD cinematic trailer
The forming of the Shatterd Hand Clan (episode 1)
Preview for future episodes
WoD ingame preview

backstory for the cinematics

Written by PurgeandFire @post

After the Cataclysm began, Thrall left Orgrimmar to undo Deathwing's actions against Azeroth
and the Elemental Plane. In his stead, he appointed Garrosh Hellscream (son of Grom) as Warchief
of the Horde. After the discovery of Pandaria, Garrosh sent out excavations to discover the
treasures the land had to offer. In the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, the horde discovered
the sealed heart of a deceased Old God, Y'Shaarj. In spite of the danger of the artifact, Garrosh
threw the heart into the vale's pools and absorbed the power for himself. He returned to Orgrimmar,
preparing to conquer all the races in his way–including the races of the Horde. Left with no other
choice, both the Alliance and Horde rallied together in a siege against Orgrimmar. Garrosh
was defeated, and Thrall lifted Doomhammer to deliver a fatal blow. However, Varian stopped Thrall,
claiming that Garrosh's punishment was not Thrall's decision. The Pandaren decided to have him
stand trial for his war crimes, to which both Thrall and Varian agreed.

Before Garrosh was tried, he was unexpectedly freed by Wrathion and Kairozdormu.
They sent Garrosh back in time to Draenor's past, and he warned the Orcish clans against
drinking Mannoroth's blood (thus, preventing their corruption). A new dark portal will be
erected, linking the alternate timeline back to present Azeroth. With it, Garrosh seeks to
create a new world order, alongside his father: Grom Hellscream.
Time changes.

EDIT: part 2 released a while ago.

EDIT: part 3 releasted 30 min ago.

EDIT. part 4 is out!

EDIT: the last part is finally here!

 

[Deleted member 219079]

LOL you were fast xP

The cinematic looked gorgeous and had nice dialogue, but what scene was that? I hope they didn't recreate the Grom Hellscream's death scene (where Mannoroth dies too).

 

[Chaosy]

Those news cannot wait!

And yeah, I loved both of the cinematics.

Just imagine yourself going to war against that clan.

TICKETS TO NOPE-LAND FOR SALE! ONLY 10$!

 

[PurgeandFire]

I was going to post this myself. It was super exciting to watch, and I love the scene they chose for the intro. Even though I don't like the way Grom was portrayed (visually), his actions seemed fitting.

The Lords of War looks great as well.

The cinematic looked gorgeous and had nice dialogue, but what scene was that? I hope they didn't recreate the Grom Hellscream's death scene (where Mannoroth dies too).

Here is a little backstory for you (I was originally going to post this with the vid, but Chaosy is ultra-fast):

After the Cataclysm began, Thrall left Orgrimmar to undo Deathwing's actions against Azeroth
and the Elemental Plane. In his stead, he appointed Garrosh Hellscream (son of Grom) as Warchief
of the Horde. After the discovery of Pandaria, Garrosh sent out excavations to discover the
treasures the land had to offer. In the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, the horde discovered
the sealed heart of a deceased Old God, Y'Shaarj. In spite of the danger of the artifact, Garrosh
threw the heart into the vale's pools and absorbed the power for himself. He returned to Orgrimmar,
preparing to conquer all the races in his way–including the races of the Horde. Left with no other
choice, both the Alliance and Horde rallied together in a siege against Orgrimmar. Garrosh
was defeated, and Thrall lifted Doomhammer to deliver a fatal blow. However, Varian stopped Thrall,
claiming that Garrosh's punishment was not Thrall's decision. The Pandaren decided to have him
stand trial for his war crimes, to which both Thrall and Varian agreed.

Before Garrosh was tried, he was unexpectedly freed by Wrathion and Kairozdormu.
They sent Garrosh back in time to Draenor's past, and he warned the Orcish clans against
drinking Mannoroth's blood (thus, preventing their corruption). A new dark portal will be
erected, linking the alternate timeline back to present Azeroth. With it, Garrosh seeks to
create a new world order, alongside his father: Grom Hellscream.
Times change.

-----

Anyway, Warlords of Draenor will be a very exciting expansion. It'll touch back on older characters, and the Garrisons
bring an RTS feel with a WoW twist. And the PvP has me extremely excited. Blizzard has held back in the past expansions
in terms of PvP, but Holinka & his team has been doing a great job in adding dynamics/improving PvP as a whole.

 

[Chaosy]

First come, first served. (that's how they say, right?)

To be honest I planned to post this for a few days. Even though I didn't intend to post the backstory since most people interested in that kind of stuff already know it.

 

[LordDz]

Cinematics look excellent.
But.. This causes all the stories so far about Warcraft to become void?

 

[Deleted member 219079]

Before Garrosh was tried, he was unexpectedly freed by Wrathion and Kairozdormu.
They sent Garrosh back in time to Draenor's past, and he warned the Orcish clans against
drinking Mannoroth's blood (thus, preventing their corruption). In this alternate timeline,
Garrosh seeks to create a new world order, alongside his father: Grom Hellscream.
Time changes.

What? OMGOMGOMGMOGMGODMOGMOFMFASFFAKFs

I drowning in my ****** whoaaa

I wanna play WoW now XD wait not without any company, I wonder how I can get some to play WoW with me :/

e:

Even though I don't like the way Grom was portrayed (visually), his actions seemed fitting.

Well, you don't have that many ways to change his look Triple A producers (is blizz one, they're not that big?) make changes to character looks and stuff like that to give the community the feeling of evolution.

They've put quite a lot of effort to it, some in the youtube comments call the cinematic the worst one ever... well I hope the majority of the fanbase won't consist of those kind of dudes :/

 

[Heinvers]

Awesome cinematic. A bit of a twist but it's good.

As I've said there ;D

 

[Chaosy]

They've put quite a lot of effort to it, some in the youtube comments call the cinematic the worst one ever... well I hope the majority of the fanbase won't consist of those kind of dudes :/

The people on the live stream seemed super hyped.

 

[PurgeandFire]

Cinematics look excellent.
But.. This causes all the stories so far about Warcraft to become void?

Oops, I didn't clarify that.

The dark portal in blasted lands changes, and it leads to Draenor's past (it likely creates a link between the two times, and Grom/Garrosh plan on invading through it [to current Azeroth]). But what happens in that alternate timeline doesn't actually change the state of "current Azeroth". It doesn't affect it--they are two separate timelines. So all the stories of Warcraft are still in tact (in "current Azeroth"). However, the alternate timeline threatens the current one, since they will invade through the portal.

It is a bit difficult to explain. I already have enough trouble wrapping my head around Zelda's timelines. Think of them as two separate timelines, which are about to clash, and things may become clearer.

They've put quite a lot of effort to it, some in the youtube comments call the cinematic the worst one ever... well I hope the majority of the fanbase won't consist of those kind of dudes :/

Youtube always has a bunch of mean comments. They bug me too. But over time, you'll come to accept that there are a bunch of people who take pleasure in bashing things. They have their own reasons. A lot of them are stuck in the past (heheh).

 

[Aeroblyctos]

I don't know about time traveling or things similar to that... It brings too much plot holes which is a very bad thing for a story.

 

[Heinvers]

Basically what happens is traveling between parallel words (universes as Purge said). A bit wonky if you' think about it too much.

 

[LordDz]

I understand it, it's just that with this being the new timeline, the old story will not happen so all the old games more or less tell about a story that doesn't happen.

It's like if Frodo after throwing the One Ring into the fire, was thrown back in time by Gandalf, allowing Frodo to tell the lords of middle earth to not accept the rings of Sauron, thus preventing the whole storyline that is Lord of the Rings from ever happening.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

I don't know about time traveling or things similar to that... It brings too much plot holes which is a very bad thing for a story.

For me the story is perfect any decent reason to bring grom back to life is good for me XD

 

[chr2]

I understand it, it's just that with this being the new timeline, the old story will not happen so all the old games more or less tell about a story that doesn't happen.

It's like if Frodo after throwing the One Ring into the fire, was thrown back in time by Gandalf, allowing Frodo to tell the lords of middle earth to not accept the rings of Sauron, thus preventing the whole storyline that is Lord of the Rings from ever happening.

You obviously don't understand it then. This is basically a parallel dimension (only their timeline is slightly offset from ours). Anything that's happening in their version of Draenor will not in the slightest way affect the past (and ultimately the future) of the Draenor (now Outlands) and Azeroth we know. Only our present is affected by this, since a new orcish Horde threatens to conqueor all of Azeroth - OUR Azeroth, thirty-some years after Azeroth was originally invaded by the first Horde.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

I wish this all happend in Warcraft III, all the way from the Frozen Throne. Not that I don't like WoW, but it would be better.

 

[PurgeandFire]

I understand it, it's just that with this being the new timeline, the old story will not happen so all the old games more or less tell about a story that doesn't happen.

It's like if Frodo after throwing the One Ring into the fire, was thrown back in time by Gandalf, allowing Frodo to tell the lords of middle earth to not accept the rings of Sauron, thus preventing the whole storyline that is Lord of the Rings from ever happening.

chr2 is correct. Either way, I made this diagram that might help sort it out. They are indeed running in parallel. Normally, we wouldn't care what Garrosh would do in an alternate timeline (since it doesn't affect ours), and we would just let him carry on his little fantasy. But the portal that they create links to our Azeroth, which is why we have to get involved. Here is a little infographic:

Image

 

[APproject]

Amazing cinematic, it somewhy reminds me oldschool warcraft style by some camera angles and action parts. Really warcraftish feel.

 

[rulerofiron99]

Epic cinematics. I just wish they had continued the story in the RTS games instead of in WoW!

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Epic cinematics. I just wish they had continued the story in the RTS games instead of in WoW!

Exactly. MMORPG's are not made for storytelling

 

[Chaosy]

Exactly. MMORPG's are not made for storytelling

I think the key difference is that you can't control the lore persons. Like Grommash and the rest.

But the raids brings a better feeling when taking down the actual bosses. Spending weeks of raiding to finally defeat a boss is amazing.

 

[PurgeandFire]

I agree that they're RTS's made it a lot easier to develop storylines. They don't have to cut things prematurely, and they have freedom to have whomever killed by anyone, rather than a "rag tag team of heroes".

Blizz has gotten a bit better over time though. The fact that Garrosh did not die is a huge deal in WoW. All end-game bosses are considered deceased at this point, but Garrosh lived. Some people may not like him as an antagonist, but I personally find it to be exciting to see characters play roles in multiple expansions. If I had it my way, we'd still be doing things relating to the lich king! Haha.

 

[rulerofiron99]

I think the key difference is that you can't control the lore persons. Like Grommash and the rest.

But the raids brings a better feeling when taking down the actual bosses. Spending weeks of raiding to finally defeat a boss is amazing.

That's definitely one of the cooler parts of MMOs.

For me, the main reason I don't like WoW is because the controls are rubbish. Give me a warcraft3-styled camera and control scheme and I'd be happy.

Secondly, I think that telling a story in a MMO loses its impact, because every day, the big end boss dies thousands of times. He's not longer a big boss or important character; he's just a boss that drops loot.

Lord of the Rings Online did this part pretty well - you don't actually interact with the LotR story. All the quests follow the story close behind, but you kill other bosses and so on.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

For me, the leveling process gets a bit repetitive after a while ( it's not in the beginning, but it becomes so later ). Playing a lore character is way more interesting. Plus, the warcraft story is way too big and complex to be wrapped up into one MMORPG. There just isn't enough room for good storytelling. It's all about loot now.

 

[Chaosy]

For me, the leveling process gets a bit repetitive after a while ( it's not in the beginning, but it becomes so later ). Playing a lore character is way more interesting. Plus, the warcraft story is way too big and complex to be wrapped up into one MMORPG. There just isn't enough room for good storytelling. It's all about loot now.

Playing a lore character is way more interesting.

Indeed, it's very interesting. RTS makes you the commander over a lot of units which gives a feeling of epicness when you complete a hard RTS style mission. (and not running through with whosyourdaddy )

But as I stated before, when it comes to boss battle wc3 sucks.. defeating admiral proudmoore wasn't epic. Sure, the mission was fun and I had a blast playing it. But the fight itself, not so good compared to WoW.

Plus, the warcraft story is way too big and complex to be wrapped up into one MMORPG. There just isn't enough room for good storytelling.

If we were speaking about classic WoW I'd understand your argument. But with 5 expansions, I don't agree.

Hopefully this is on topic enough?

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Well, warcraft was never about 1v1 or 5v1 boss battle. It's about armies. And I was talking about Blizzard not trying to hard to interest player in WoW story. I know many players from my country who don't know who Arthas, Jaina and Thrall are (and so on...). They only care about loot. You can be one hell of a player without knowing a thing about Wow story.

 

[Chaosy]

I'd argue more with you but Ralle would lock the topic due us speaking off topic

 

[Deleted member 238589]

I'd argue more with you but Ralle would lock the topic due us speaking off topic

Well, cinematics are awesome, I can't argue with that.

 

[Rui]

Holy shiet, those are some pretty cinematics. The first one is awesome.

I understand it, it's just that with this being the new timeline, the old story will not happen so all the old games more or less tell about a story that doesn't happen.
(...)

You've already received a few replies on this matter. However, I am curious as to the last line: «We will be conquerors». This could mean that they could still invade Azeroth. Of course a few other things will happen differently: if they killed Gul'dan, then he'll never raise the Broken Isles from the deeps, Illidan will never go there, chased by Maiev, then he'll never open a breach in the Frozen Throne, therefore Arthas will never become the Lich King.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

So I heard someone saying about Blizz not doing the CGI's in house (was it dsg I don't remember...)..

so is it true? I can believe it, but why's there no cgi producer's name in the vid or description?

 

[Chaosy]

Why would someone from CGI be involved..?

 

[Deleted member 219079]

Why would someone from CGI be involved..?

I don't mean cgi as any company. I mean computer generated images.

The cgi cinematic trailers for all the blizzard games

 

[andreariona]

Grom 2 - 0 Mannoroth

I wish Blizzard would make upcoming Warcraft movie in CGI instead of silly live action.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

I wish Blizzard would make upcoming Warcraft movie in CGI instead of silly live action.

When are they going to release it?

 

[Chaosy]

the movie? exact date, unconfirmed.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

the movie? exact date, unconfirmed.

I've heard something about the movie many years ago. It's cool that they'll finally make it.

 

[Deleted member 219079]

It was meant to come in -15, but it got moved to -16

 

[takakenji]

MMOs are terrible for storytelling because each expansion the good guys win and your always beating the bad guys in a raid leading to this continual cycle. blizzard would also never destroy any of the main factions. imagine if stormwind was destroyed, like lordaeron was in wc3. that could be possible through an RTS, but never an MMO. so honestly wow's story has been extremely lacking because every year they introduce new characters and a new expac just to kill all the evil guys and move on. by the end of wod, all the warlords will already be dead, except possibly grom whom they may try to redeem.

 

[Deleted member 238589]

Maybe so, but it still looks really good.

 

[BlackKnightTGS]

I have to say, that was an awesome cinematic! Loved the visuals, and it was nice to see the battle from the orc finale redone. Can't wait to see what Grom does, being the ruler of this 'new' horde, and Draenor never becoming Outland.
Though, I'm rather disappointed that the Dark Portal they're building leads to the original timeline, thought it would lead to the new timeline's Azeroth, you know, a fresh start for Garrosh to conquer everything with his father. It'll be interesting to see many characters' reactions to Grom returning, though.

 

[Chaosy]

I have to say, that was an awesome cinematic! Loved the visuals, and it was nice to see the battle from the orc finale redone. Can't wait to see what Grom does, being the ruler of this 'new' horde, and Draenor never becoming Outland.
Though, I'm rather disappointed that the Dark Portal they're building leads to the original timeline, thought it would lead to the new timeline's Azeroth, you know, a fresh start for Garrosh to conquer everything with his father. It'll be interesting to see many characters' reactions to Grom returning, though.

If it didn't affect our timeline we wouldn't have to give a f*ck about what Garrosh is doing you know.

 

[BlackKnightTGS]

If it didn't affect our timeline we wouldn't have to give a f*ck about what Garrosh is doing you know.

Wouldn't the old timeline be rewritten if he changed things in the past of the new timeline? I think that would be enough reason for characters in the old one to worry about what he might do and go to the past to try and stop it. Unless the timelines are independent of one another? Either way, I'm looking forward to see how they unfold this story.

 

[Chen]

Loved everything but Why did Wrathion freed Garry and sent him back in time?

 

[PurgeandFire]

So I heard someone saying about Blizz not doing the CGI's in house (was it dsg I don't remember...)..

so is it true? I can believe it, but why's there no cgi producer's name in the vid or description?

No. Blizzard has their own cinematics team.

MMOs are terrible for storytelling because each expansion the good guys win and your always beating the bad guys in a raid leading to this continual cycle. blizzard would also never destroy any of the main factions. imagine if stormwind was destroyed, like lordaeron was in wc3. that could be possible through an RTS, but never an MMO. so honestly wow's story has been extremely lacking because every year they introduce new characters and a new expac just to kill all the evil guys and move on. by the end of wod, all the warlords will already be dead, except possibly grom whom they may try to redeem.

I can agree with that in some respects. Blizzard wasn't very brave in the early expansions. After phasing was implemented, the story became a lot more interesting and dynamic. I actually prefer the middle-of-expansion story over the end. I agree that the end is usually "good guys win, bad guys die". But that doesn't mean the story has to be dull. Take Legend of Zelda, for example. Almost every game (except maybe Majora's Mask) involves unveiling Ganondorf as the big-bad-guy, but there are different stories in every game. Even though the end is known, the game and story is still compelling.

I just hope Blizz does a good job with it. They have great characters set up, and the Lords of War series will really get people to be invested in the characters (opposed to other xpacs, where you really don't get any dynamics of any boss except the end boss). I hope that the warlords aren't the archetypical enemies. It would be great to stirrup some internal clan war--or perhaps ally yourself with a clan.

Wouldn't the old timeline be rewritten if he changed things in the past of the new timeline? I think that would be enough reason for characters in the old one to worry about what he might do and go to the past to try and stop it. Unless the timelines are independent of one another? Either way, I'm looking forward to see how they unfold this story.

The timelines are independent. The issue with time travel in most series: if it starts to get convoluted, then the plot becomes stupid. Blizzard was trying to avoid anything that would raise a ton of questions. They have so much established lore, that a past-that-changed-the-future would create so many issues, and it would be very hard to plug-in all the holes.

It would be awesome if time progressed as they released patches though. e.g. new patch -> 3 years pass. Something like that. It would be cool to see how the alternate timeline plays out in Draenor.

Loved everything but Why did Wrathion freed Garry and sent him back in time?

I'm not sure. I took that from wowpedia, and I apologize if it is a spoiler (or I apologize if it is untrue). I think it is supposed to be a huge shock, considering Wrathion is uncorrupted. I suppose we'll find out when WoD is released (I'm trying not to spoil too much for myself yet, I can't fathom how the wowpedia goers have the audacity to read the game files in advance and get the lore. I prefer unveiling the lore through playing the game).

 

[VeljkoM]

Can someone tell me how are they making actually this Dark Portal. In main timeline it was done by Gul'dan (and his followers) and Medivh so who is doing it now and how. Did they force Gul'dan? Why exactly also are they trying to reach with this portal main timeline Azeroith and not Azeroth from their own timeline/dimension. Oh and does anyone know what happened to Blackhand and all other chieftains.

 

[chr2]

I just hope Blizz does a good job with it. They have great characters set up, and the Lords of War series will really get people to be invested in the characters (opposed to other xpacs, where you really don't get any dynamics of any boss except the end boss). I hope that the warlords aren't the archetypical enemies. It would be great to stirrup some internal clan war--or perhaps ally yourself with a clan.

Having played some of the Beta, I can tell you that the Frostwolves and Laughing Skull clan are standing against the Iron Horde, and you get involved with both of these clans as a Horde player.
The Alliance join up with the Draenei, however they also work with the Palemoon clan (former Shadowmoon orcs who split from the rest when the clan joined the Iron Horde), lead by Ner'zhul's wife (who apparently isn't dead).

I'm not sure. I took that from wowpedia, and I apologize if it is a spoiler (or I apologize if it is untrue). I think it is supposed to be a huge shock, considering Wrathion is uncorrupted. I suppose we'll find out when WoD is released (I'm trying not to spoil too much for myself yet, I can't fathom how the wowpedia goers have the audacity to read the game files in advance and get the lore. I prefer unveiling the lore through playing the game).

Wrathion believes Azeroth is about to get invaded by the Legion again, and after losing faith in both the Horde and Alliance (following the Siege of Orgrimmar), he decides to bring in some new players to deal with the coming invasion.

Can someone tell me how are they making actually this Dark Portal. In main timeline it was done by Gul'dan (and his followers) and Medivh so who is doing it now and how. Did they force Gul'dan? Why exactly also are they trying to reach with this portal main timeline Azeroith and not Azeroth from their own timeline/dimension. Oh and does anyone know what happened to Blackhand and all other chieftains.

After what happens in the cinematic, they capture Gul'dan and force him to fuel the Dark Portal.
I belive they invade our Azeroth for two reasons. 1) Garrosh is a little whiny bitch who runs to daddy after getting his ass handed to him. He's mad at the world and wants revenge. 2) Wrathion wants the Iron Horde to our Azeroth, and he was the one who made it possible for Garrosh to escape to Draenor in the first place.
Also, all the chieftains (or Warlords, as Blizz decided they are now called) we know and love are there. Blackhand will become a raid boss in one of the opening raids, other chie- warlords will be dealt with in either another raid, or a 5-man dungeon (such as Ner'zhul), or in a quest (such as Fenris of the Thunderlord Clan).

 

[VeljkoM]

Oh right forgot the very reason why they went to the alternate past in the first place. Can't wait to see Gul'battery. Everything else seems as expected though. I do think Wrathion seems insane but then which time traveling dragon or villain was ever sane in warcraft.

Still this all seems as great way to go to the past without need to change/retcon anything in warcraft lore itself (wait what was that about Ner'zhuls wife being alive?). Oh and Draenei have purpose again finally. Though wish they went forward but I guess next expansion will finally deal with Burning Legion properly.

 

[chr2]

Oh right forgot the very reason why they went to the alternate past in the first place. Can't wait to see Gul'battery. Everything else seems as expected though. I do think Wrathion seems insane but then which time traveling dragon or villain was ever sane in warcraft.

Still this all seems as great way to go to the past without need to change/retcon anything in warcraft lore itself (wait what was that about Ner'zhuls wife being alive?). Oh and Draenei have purpose again finally. Though wish they went forward but I guess next expansion will finally deal with Burning Legion properly.

Yeah, it would seem like Wrathion has a few screws loose. Even if the Iron Horde succesfully did invade Azeroth, I doubt they'd have a large enough force to combat the Burning Legion, after having fought the Horde and Alliance. If anything, I find it more plausible that he is in fact trying to weaken Azeroth's defenses. Perhaps he isn't as uncorrupted as he claims.

I guess Blizzard forgot Ner'zhul's wife died "several years prior to Draenor's discovery by the Burning Legion" (and judging by the cinematic, I'd say the Legion has discovered Draenor in this timeline). Also, originally the Legion contacted Ner'zhul before contacting Gul'dan, which there doesn't seem to be any indication of in Warlords of Draenor.

 

[VeljkoM]

Yeah, it would seem like Wrathion had a few screws loose. Even if the Iron Horde succesfully did invade Azeroth, I doubt they'd have a large enough force to combat the Burning Legion, after having fought the Horde and Alliance. If anything, I find it more plausible that he is in fact trying to weaken Azeroth's defenses. Perhaps he isn't as uncorrupted as he claims.

I guess Blizzard forgot Ner'zhul's wife died "several years prior to Draenor's discovery by the Burning Legion" (and judging by the cinematic, I'd say the Legion has discovered Draenor in this timeline). Also, originally the Legion contacted Ner'zhul before contacting Gul'dan, which there doesn't seem to be any indication of in Warlords of Draenor.

Well since Iron Horde still hasn't secure Dreanor itself and then all the casualties in the war against current Azeroth forces. Only reasonable explanation is that he saw some really strange future that convinced him what he was doing could work. Or traditional reason, he got corrupted by the old gods/legion. In then end all warcraft villains are corrupted.

To much to ask for no retcons. Unless they are going to say Garrosh went back and first saved Ner'zhul's wife and Kil'jaden skipped straight to Gul'dan.

 

[PurgeandFire]

I wouldn't put it past Blizzard retconning that. Although, I always hate it when the retcon deaths, e.g. Muradin.