Are zergs underpowered in Starcraft 2?

Are zergs weak in Starcraft 2


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Level 12
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Currently, they *appear* to be underpowered. That doesn't mean they are, and as others pointed out, the game is not released yet. Don't really need to worry about it till the game is released. Although I would like to see a game where the Zerg actually win.
 
Level 20
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Simple no would be enough. I am aware that game isn't released but I was asking about current progress (I know I forgot to write it).

I just mentioned mother ship and Thor as coolest units and I did not say that they have same roles. I am aware that mother ship is more of support unit wile Thor is assault unit.
 
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Also, Dread, I think the bigger problem is that we need a game where David Kim doesn't win.
I second that. I'm tired of David Kim winning. It's fixed I tell you. The guy is cheating, lol.
 
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And if terran mass Thors?
Then they don't deal alot of damage? Thors are frontline tanks and ANTI-AIR UNITS! The Thors are basically oversized Goliaths. In case you didn't know, Thor haven't had that bombardment skill for a LOOOOOONG time.

The Mothership on the other hand is a 1 unit only unique support unit, while the Queen is a defensive unit.

I don't really see why Zergs need an equivalant. Starcraft 2 is an ASYMMETRIC RTS, meaning that the races are not symmetrical, as in they don't have the same units an functions with different looks.
 
I dont really understand that last comment.
I did notice from recent screenshots that the thor have it's cannons replaced with some kind of ramps. You're saying those are for AA rockets?
It sounds logical, if not a bit less epic (the thor had it's artillery in the BR4 when David Kim used it).
Could you link to some statement that supports this?
 
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I dont really understand that last comment.
I did notice from recent screenshots that the thor have it's cannons replaced with some kind of ramps. You're saying those are for AA rockets?
It sounds logical, if not a bit less epic (the thor had it's artillery in the BR4 when David Kim used it).
Could you link to some statement that supports this?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Thor
Starcraft wiki is your friend.

Anyways, what I mean with the asymmetric thing is that, in asymmetric games like Starcraft, just because one race has something (an unique unit or a ability or something) doesn't mean that the others should have something similar too.
 
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I am surprised how did you get conclusion that I said that races are symmetric? I am not saying they should have similar that would be boring.

It serves particularly well against the zerg when it comes to gaining ground.
Well that is description of Thor in Wiki. I really think that his 30x2 ground attack isn't something to be forgotten. But it is true that hydralisks with their armor penetrating attack could defeat units like Thor.
 
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zerg have many great units in starcraft 2 and if you want to see them win then I say see the games on youtube they have some new creeps that is evolving from zerglings that seems to be very useful :D
 
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You guys haven't even played the game... How in the world can you even begin to say whether they are underpowered, Overpowered, etc.?

My experience with zerg has been that while their units are not "Holy crap, that could kill me in a few seconds", they are EXTREMELY flexible, due mostly to the Birth Queen unit. The birth queen unit can be used for 3 things, but the only thing anyone ever uses it for (Unless they're a freaking moron), is its' ability to produce an additional 4 larvae every 25 seconds, simulating 2.5 regular hatcheries. This makes early game ling rushes extremely dangerous, but at the same time, they can produce 2.5x more workers, meaning they can saturate their base much more quickly than their adversary, and begin to expand to their nat and eventually to the rest of the map very quickly.

If you do some early scouting and see that they are expanding extremely quickly, and send whatever small army you have, they can use those additional larvae to quickly create a decent sized army of zerglings, which, with some good micro skills, will stop you dead in your tracks.

That's all i have for now, i am planning on releasing a very thorough review as part of my game design "education", so you can expect a much more detailed review of all 3 races soon.
 
Level 16
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I'm sure they balanced everything, such as Warcraft3 and SC1 is.
If they didn't then I'm they'e balancing, or they should surely balance it in the full version.
Lol, how could you even think of inbalancment? Why the heck should they give beta keys to fans then? If they would know that it's inbalanced and that if they would give them, they would get lot's of reports from people like ''oh, oh, inbalancement!''
 
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I thought they didn't have enough air units in Sc2, But they can attack air with many units, and with the overlord they can just move there units around gaps in the map. I think the roach might even be overpowered, even with just a few they will just
Step 1. Go into your base kill a SCV and bury
Step 2. Then you will put some units around them, they will pop up and kill one or two, then you have got them half or less health.
Step 3. Bury and get full health underground (they heal fast while buried) then return to Step 1 and repeat.
 
Level 17
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Okay, to keep it short and simple:
Terran is not underpowered, they are actually very strong.
David Kim is a living proof of this, and i have seen alot of replays where he play (he also play ladder matches you know..). And guess what, i personally have only seen him loose ONCE. And guess again... He played as terran..
If anyone say that Zerg is underpowered, then you probably havent played as the zerg yourself, or do not know how to play the zerg.
 
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From what I've gathered, Zerg have trouble dealing with air in late game. Also your super evil roach plan falls apart pretty much as soon as detectors are brought. All good players use detectors, it's one of the basic stuff!
 
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Well, just got watch some replays and you will see that Zerg is good from start to finish.
personally, i do not see any flaws with the zerg, but i do think that the protoss is a bit stronger then the zerg.
I would go with this:
Protoss > Zerg > Terran
I have watched about 60 replays in total, and that is what i (not you!) think.
 
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Well, just got watch some replays and you will see that Zerg is good from start to finish.
personally, i do not see any flaws with the zerg, but i do think that the protoss is a bit stronger then the zerg.
I would go with this:
Protoss > Zerg > Terran
I have watched about 60 replays in total, and that is what i (not you!) think.

They're all pretty much even, it just depends on the skill of the player.
 
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They're all pretty much even, it just depends on the skill of the player.

Not exactly.
There is a few things that need to be changed in order to make them even.
When 2 pro gamers play, terran almost always loose to be honest :/
Terran have always been "that other race" in both starcraft 1 and starcraft 2. Hopefully they will change this and make terran stronger, or nerf the other races a bit.
But yeah, alot depends on the player, but that doesnt mean that the game is balanced. The beta is much about balancing the game afterall.
 
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Not exactly.
There is a few things that need to be changed in order to make them even.
When 2 pro gamers play, terran almost always loose to be honest :/
Terran have always been "that other race" in both starcraft 1 and starcraft 2. Hopefully they will change this and make terran stronger, or nerf the other races a bit.
But yeah, alot depends on the player, but that doesnt mean that the game is balanced. The beta is much about balancing the game afterall.

I watched a Terran player completely kick the crap out of a 'Toss player. Yes, there are a few tweaks that are needed, but it really does just depend on the skill of the players.
 
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I watched a Terran player completely kick the crap out of a 'Toss player. Yes, there are a few tweaks that are needed, but it really does just depend on the skill of the players.

No. You are wrong. And i think that most people agree with me.
It is NOT only depending on their skills.
Blizzard themself say that the game is in need of more balancing before releasing the game, and they said that they know that there will be strats that will pretty much ruin all their balance.
The only case where it only depends on the skills of a player, is when both play same race. Not even warcraft 3 is fully balanced. Almost all warcraft 3 pro-gamers say that undead IS the weakest race.
 
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No. You are wrong. And i think that most people agree with me.
It is NOT only depending on their skills.
Blizzard themself say that the game is in need of more balancing before releasing the game, and they said that they know that there will be strats that will pretty much ruin all their balance.
The only case where it only depends on the skills of a player, is when both play same race. Not even warcraft 3 is fully balanced. Almost all warcraft 3 pro-gamers say that undead IS the weakest race.

I said that for the most part, yes, things still need to be tweaked, but overall, the game is pretty well balanced. All units have their hard and soft counters. Yes, there are strategies that will completely wipe out the other player, but any half-decent player should be able to scout and identify their enemies tactics and then plan accordingly. It's a key part in Pro SC gaming.

As a player, you should be able to at least compensate for any imbalances inherit in the game, and work around them.

Honestly, please, at least watch some replays of pros playing the game before you post, or go play the game yourself.
 
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I said that for the most part, yes, things still need to be tweaked, but overall, the game is pretty well balanced. All units have their hard and soft counters. Yes, there are strategies that will completely wipe out the other player, but any half-decent player should be able to scout and identify their enemies tactics and then plan accordingly. It's a key part in Pro SC gaming.

As a player, you should be able to at least compensate for any imbalances inherit in the game, and work around them.

Honestly, please, at least watch some replays of pros playing the game before you post, or go play the game yourself.

It seems like blizzard doesnt agree to much with you.
They patched starcraft 2 tonight, and they nerfed a few protoss units, mainly the mothership, they removed two spells and added one new, and they did something else that i cant remember exactly what it was..

And they did nerf protoss much more then the others if i remember it right.
Also, i saw a video where one zealot was microing around in the opponents base, killing workers, marines over and over, i think he killed a total of 3 marines and one worker, with one single zealot. I cant remember if they nerfed the zealot at all through.. Becouse at start, they are your worst enemy, specially if your opponent is microing with them.

And actually, i watch pro replays all the time, i have watched many of them, a few with david kim, and the rest with pro gamers from starcraft 1 or warcraft 3. So i know what i am talking about :S

And also:
but it really does just depend on the skill of the players.
That doesnt sound like
I said that for the most part
to me.. but maybe its just me..
 
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Way to put those last two quotes out of context...

Yes, the 'Toss were nerfed last night, quite a bit actually, but it was still perfectly possible to beat a Protoss player prior to the patch. That wouldn't be the case with any other game that is completely unbalanced. You're making it sound like it was absolutely impossible to win against a 'Toss player, which wasn't the case.

Considering how weak Marines are unless you mass them (which has always been the case since SC1), it doesn't surprise me that the player you watched was able to micro a single zealot well enough to kill 2 or 3 marines and an SCV.
 
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They need Lurkey and infested marines back. Should be given some kind of infested protoss unit for balancing, and to be able to convert enemy zerg.

Protoss is on top at the moment (will be nerfed to the ground soon)
Terran second





Zerg down here


Zerg don't stand out or seem good in any way other than ZOMG LOOK AT ALL DEM ZERGLINGS
 
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Yes, the 'Toss were nerfed last night, quite a bit actually, but it was still perfectly possible to beat a Protoss player prior to the patch. That wouldn't be the case with any other game that is completely unbalanced. You're making it sound like it was absolutely impossible to win against a 'Toss player, which wasn't the case.

That they nerfed the protoss just yell "Protoss were to strong!" if you havent noticed that. Why would they nerf something that wasnt stronger then the others?
What i am saying is that the race itself is stronger, and if you say "well, if the other player is better he win" ofc he will. But if both is as good, the chances is that the protoss would win.


Considering how weak Marines are unless you mass them (which has always been the case since SC1), it doesn't surprise me that the player you watched was able to micro a single zealot well enough to kill 2 or 3 marines and an SCV.

a few marines against one zealot that attacks a SCV should be able to kill him, lol. And if i do not remember it wrong, they did nerf the zealots a bit so you cant do this zealot rush at start anymore, so im right in that case aswell.
Also do not comapre sc2 and sc1 when it is about microing etc. Sc2 is much more like warcraft 3 then sc1, and many pro gamers complained about the fact that there is less microing and macroing in sc2 then sc1.

So protoss was better before, i do not know if this is the case after the patch, but that is how it was.
And to end this: All races is almost equal to each other now, but they do need more balance.
 
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And to end this: All races is almost equal to each other now, but they do need more balance.

That's what i said in the very first post... -.-

Yeah, they increased the Gateway build time from like 50 seconds to 65 seconds, so your rush is 15 seconds delayed. Or did they increase the Zealot build time...? I can't remember.

You didn't say it was 2 marines and one SCV all at once. I assumed that since he was only using one zealot, he must have rushed pretty early, so the Terran player probably only had time to get 1 marine out, and then continually try to kill the zealot one marine at a time. Lack of clarification led to that mistake.

I have a friend who's pretty good (He beat David Kim the other day, so....) and yes, he has complained about the lack of Macro and Micro in SC2. For one, auto-surround, or whatever the heck you want to call it, needs to be nerfed. Surrounding an enemy with zerglings used to require some good micro skills, but now you can just click on an enemy and they'll do it themselves.
 
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That's what i said in the very first post... -.-

Yeah, they increased the Gateway build time from like 50 seconds to 65 seconds, so your rush is 15 seconds delayed. Or did they increase the Zealot build time...? I can't remember.

You didn't say it was 2 marines and one SCV all at once. I assumed that since he was only using one zealot, he must have rushed pretty early, so the Terran player probably only had time to get 1 marine out, and then continually try to kill the zealot one marine at a time. Lack of clarification led to that mistake.

I have a friend who's pretty good (He beat David Kim the other day, so....) and yes, he has complained about the lack of Macro and Micro in SC2. For one, auto-surround, or whatever the heck you want to call it, needs to be nerfed. Surrounding an enemy with zerglings used to require some good micro skills, but now you can just click on an enemy and they'll do it themselves.

You said that before the patches were made. And you did say that it all depended on the players. I am talking about after the patch.

And actually, it was not that early that he sended the zealot, he only had it in the base to keep track of whats going on, the opponent did have two marines when he killed the SCV, and its weird how one zealot manage to kill a SCV while he have two marines running after him... It was becouse the protoss shield heal themself when they get out of battle, so they get full life, and then they can continue like that and get many units down with just one unit. But the patches made this harder.
 
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He used a zealot to scout? Wow, if he was scouting that late in the game, he would be at a pretty large disadvantage, as he would have no idea if the Terran player was going for Siege Expand, had 2 'rax, etc.

Ehhh, how can you judge all that from that little information i gave?..
It seems like you are guessing on everything you say actually.

Ofc he scouted with a probe at start, but he went back with it and used a zealot insted to earn more minerals, and that does not give him a disadvantage exactly.

Only becouse i said that he scouted with a zealot doesnt mean that he didnt scout before. Scouting in sc1 and wc3 is entierly different things.
In warcraft you just check where the opponent is, but in starcraft you usually micro around in the base, to know exactly what the opponent is doing constantly, giving you a huge advantage.
 

Dr Super Good

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The zerg look fine to me.

Their anti air may be lacking, but they have the strategic tools to combat this.

Firstly the mothership was weakoned so it now can not flee near death (or so I heard).
Secondly the protoss air units are tough, meaning dispersed fire is inneffective.
Thirdly the protoss air units have long range with high damage.

Conclusion from this information is that you get an army of hydralisks, and air units. like curropters and those flying things that had bounce in the first game. Burry hydralisks in a position the air fleet will have to go and when they are nearly overhead you unburry and beat the crap out of them by focusing fire causing their damage to drop linearly (and your so numerous they cant really do the same). You then also flank them with the air units resulting in a total destruction of their fleet.

As for land power, people are arguing that their brood lords are too powerful currently due to infinite free spawns. Until I have the game, I can not really comment more.
 

Dr Super Good

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All the rest of the complaints tend to be unskilled zerg players.
Like I said they were only unable to counter zelot rushes on specific maps due to the terrain not giving enough strategic advantage.

Zelot rushes are totally usless against terrans who can supply depot and bunker key positions so 3 marines can kill them resulting in a lost of under 100 minerals for the cost of 5 or more zelots.

Zerg do not have the advantage of such flexible base layout plans to provide enough strategic bonus on some maps. This meant on some maps you were garunteed to win V a zerg with a zelot rush. This has since changed so it is now possible to counter a zelot rush.

By the looks of it, rushing has been reduced in emphisis meaning it is not vital for gameplay. If you rush you havestrained your economy to make the rush and on top of that the enemy will have troops to fight your rush with (probably less worth but for that they have better economy). Your troops will eithor fail costing you their cost and a slower economy (you will lose) as in the case of zelot rushing terrans on defensive maps. If your zelots suceed, you will have slowed the enemies economy enough so that you will be ontrack with them (you should not have done enough to weakon their economy below yours). This gives rushes quite an element of risk as they will have to slow the enemies economy down to your level or else you will lose due to them growing faster.

The emphisis seems to be victory midgame, where units are proprotionatly more numerous and stronger so that anti rush strats no longer give the advantage capable of turning battles. People call this the T2 phase.

Few games that run on longer (maybe 2 attacks fought out in the middle reusulting in retreats to rebuild due to being almost equally strong) will be won through actual advanced stratergies and intel. If they are ammasing an airfleet as protoss, you better sure as hell start ammasing and placing units to combat it. If the terrans are ammasing a land amy, you would want to ammas brood lords and other extreemly effective anti ground units. The key is to make sure you counter their amries in the right way.

No games should last longer than this sort of stage, the remaining units should be enough to kill the enemies enough so that they can not recover to your next wave. If you were one step ahead of the enemies, you will level their base.

Larger maps with more players may result in a few waves of final tier units until resources are pressed.
 
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Are zerg underpowered? The attached screenshot should sum up your final thoughts. I single-handedly raped a terran AND a protoss base at the SAME TIME on Twilight Fortress. So... No, if anything, there's overpowered.

This rape was achieved by at least 200 zerglings and 3 nydus worms. And that's it.
 

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I expected them to be way under powered, with the massive amount of Aoe units now present, although from my experience sofar thats not the case :)

I havnt played enough to really critique anything on a balance perspective, that being said i really hate banelings..
something that can deal alot of damage, shouldnt be able to build large armys of, its next to impossible to micro 20 banelings as there charging in (for the attacker, and the defender)

Infested Terrain were the perfect consistency, hard to get, really damaging, and just expensive enough to prevent masses of em. any unit with that kinda impact on a battle, should also be easily stopped, via targeting it

The fact that bnet gets a delay of atleast half a second, doesnt help either
 
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