A game engine?

[Ralle]

I have for a while been looking for areas on which to expand the Hive. People think that SC2 is a dead end, but I will still give it some attention, however I may not only bet on a single thing. Therefore I have been thinking about game engines as they are closely related to what I want this site to be about.
People have been suggesting Unity in quite a few posts, so that could be one. I honestly never dug into Unity and have no clue about it, but I would like to know in which areas that you guys have experience. It would be nice to start supporting something that many of you already know, so we can cooperate in expanding the site.
Putting further weight on the art and modeling area of the site may also be beneficial both for it in itself, but also in synergy with a game engine, like with models and WC3.

So basically, what would you like to see Hive expanding to in the future?

~Keep on Mooseing,
Ralle

 

[Pharaoh_]

CryEngine3, UnrealEngine4. The latest game engines with immense graphical and technical boost. I have been spreading the rumors for these engines, because I find them to be the future of the modding world.

And yes, I'll post a few videos:

Valuable Previews

 

[Asomath]

I'll bite, since I've been pushing for this

I am a big fan of the Unreal Engine. I worked with Unreal Development kit on a stand-alone game doing Flash Menu/Interface work. Im still "new" in most regards to its function, but I totally wouldnt mind sharing what I learned as a tutorial.

I have heard good reviews in regards to Unity, but I do not have a personal experience with it.

~Asomath

Edit: @Pharaoh Get those videos in Hidden tags ASAP

 

[Skycraft]

Unity, Unreal and CryEngine are definite things to go for; they'll easily be great modding equipment for future developers. I do believe that games such as Torchlight 2 have their own modding system so we could go for that too.

 

[Yixx]

Not only would such an idea make my activity on Hive once more a fact, it would help me feed my hunger for doing projects besides school/university. I have no experience with either of the named engines, though I have just yesterday downloaded Unity, just to see how it could be of any help/purpose to me..

I like (read: Love) the fact that you, Ralle, are actually taking such an idea of expanding to an engine (not just a game) into account, even though it is too late to help me get through this holiday

 

[General_Anon]

I agree with Skycraft here; especially the Unreal engine. It's huge.
Don't forget the source engine; Half-Life 2 modding is huge.

 

[~Void~]

I have a tiny bit of experience in Unity, as well as UDK, although I'm not a huge fan of the latter. In any case, I'd certainly support subforums for both platforms. Anything to bring more aspects of modding/development into the site without shifting the focus too far away from WC3.

 

[Asomath]

I’m actually thrilled to see other Hivers supporting Unreal. I’ve been quite fond of Unreal since I started working with it. I would love to see the Hive get into it. I was also comfortable because Epic Games (the creator of Unreal) has its headquarters about 5 minutes down the road from my house.

@~Void~ I agree that subforums for both would be quite nice, at least to start.

~Asomath

 

[~Void~]

It's not all about activity/popularity, though.

First of all, we don't want to shift the focus away from WC3. There are plenty of Unity, Unreal, CryEngine etc communities out there. The thing that makes Hive so special is that it's one of the last active bastions of WC3 modding.

Second, just because it's a popular engine doesn't mean it's a good one. Unreal is dated, and (not speaking from too much experience, but just from my observations) CryEngine is pretty boring, although it's flashy. Unity is where it's at.

I would LOVE to see an Indie Development forum on Hive. I've worked with a fair amount of indie developers and for the most part they're all very interesting and cool people who have a lot of creativity to offer both to their own field as well as WC3 modding itself.

 

[Asomath]

It's not all about activity/popularity, though.

First of all, we don't want to shift the focus away from WC3. There are plenty of Unity, Unreal, CryEngine etc communities out there. The thing that makes Hive so special is that it's one of the last active bastions of WC3 modding.

Indeed. I still would like to see merging with Wc3c... but that is a different story for a different thread.

Second, just because it's a popular engine doesn't mean it's a good one. Unreal is dated, and (not speaking from too much experience, but just from my observations) CryEngine is pretty boring, although it's flashy. Unity is where it's at..

Indeed U3 is dated, but Unreal 4 is on its way. It would be nice to get Hive UDK developers up to speed, so that as a "modding" community, we have a fighting chance when U4 arrives. Dont get me wrong, I also want to support Unity, since it is another very good engine.

I would LOVE to see an Indie Development forum on Hive. I've worked with a fair amount of indie developers and for the most part they're all very interesting and cool people who have a lot of creativity to offer both to their own field as well as WC3 modding itself.

This just needs to be seconded because it portrays my feelings exactly.

~Asomath

 

[~Void~]

Indeed U3 is dated, but Unreal 4 is on its way. It would be nice to get Hive UDK developers up to speed, so that as a "modding" community, we have a fighting chance when U4 arrives. Dont get me wrong, I also want to support Unity, since it is another very good engine.

Fair enough. I didn't know about Unreal 4.

 

[Asomath]

All good

If I may ask though, Ralle, what exactly did you plan on moving towards beyond subforums. Were you thinking of full integration into the Hive, where it can support the downloading of games, scripts and systems, as well as high-poly models that are compatible with the current leading engines?

~Asomath

 

[Magtheridon96]

I have UDK on my disk.

I'm planning on buying a much more powerful computer in the future just so I can run it smoothly
Currently, it heats up my computer pretty easily and takes a whole lot of RAM.

I'm familiar with the scripting language it uses and know a few good syntax highlighters for it.

 

[Ralle]

All good

If I may ask though, Ralle, what exactly did you plan on moving towards beyond subforums. Were you thinking of full integration into the Hive, where it can support the downloading of games, scripts and systems, as well as high-poly models that are compatible with the current leading engines?

~Asomath

Well something like that would be great. The technical implementation is however far out, but that doesn't prevent us from starting out with a few sub forums and attaching what we made to posts to see if people are interested.

So. Unity, Quake, Source, Unreal. That is quite a bunch. I would prefer if we could limit that to a single one. Are all of these engines completely free? It would be best with something where people did not have to pay to use it.
I would also like something cross platform for at least Windows and Mac.

Do keep in mind that I am not stating anything official here, I am merely speaking my mind and discussing topics. None of this is final.

 

[Pharaoh_]

CryEngine is; I have tested it. No clue about the others.
What is good about CryEngine is that their policy fits Blizzard's standards: You may not make profit from what you create. It's only for fun and modding -that's why it's free as well-.

 

[Ralle]

I am leaning more towards Unity because it looks to be completely free and supports more platforms than the others.

 

[Hemske]

I'll repost this message I posted earlier to Ralle here as I see it would fit:

UDK would be quite easy to implement in a site like this as another "branch" I would say. It is sort of a "kit" to develop games using the unreal engine. So it is kind of a world/map/game editor.

It is fully customizable to create whichever game you'd like to create. It would also make all of us the possibility to create models for the same engine, or icons and sounds in the same format. Also terrains, user interfaces and cinematics are things you can do in it. Similar to what we currently mod and create within our WE.

I have to admit though, I am not that well-read on the subject of UDK, so my knowledge is quite small about it. But if you care to check it out, feel free to do so. To me it seems like something you could be looking for, if we are to branch out. I think one can even create games/applications for android, ios and consoles.

It is also free of charge as far as I know.

link

 

[Asomath]

CryEngine is; I have tested it. No clue about the others.
What is good about CryEngine is that their policy fits Blizzard's standards: You may not make profit from what you create. It's only for fun and modding -that's why it's free as well-.

Are you sure? Im pretty sure CryEngine doesnt support the OSX, they've kept in pretty relegated to PC's.

Both Unreal and Unity support cross-platform. In regards to Unreal's license, it is also completely free for non-commercial projects.

~Asomath

 

[Pharaoh_]

Are you sure? Im pretty sure CryEngine doesnt support the OSX, they've kept in pretty relegated to PC's.

Both Unreal and Unity support cross-platform. In regards to Unreal's license, it is also completely free for non-commercial projects.

~Asomath

• http://www.crytek.com/cryengine/cryengine3/overview
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJtY3O7UNc (4:03 +)

 

[Asomath]

• http://www.crytek.com/cryengine/cryengine3/overview
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJtY3O7UNc (4:03 +)

Woops sorry, by that I didnt mean that they didnt support consoles, I meant that I dont think they support Macs.

~Asomath

 

[takakenji]

Minecraft Ebgine

 

[~Void~]

Minecraft Ebgine

I am leaning more towards Unity because it looks to be completely free and supports more platforms than the others.

It's a favorite among a lot of the better indie communities, too.

 

[Foronisus]

im really interested in making games or try to make one but its hard alone so if you do something like that creating a group for making a game wont be hard as it is now.

 

[Magtheridon96]

Creating a game is not as fun as you'd think it is.


I am incapable of making anything because my standards are too high.
When I write a system, I want it to be perfect and modular, so I keep rewriting it and deleting it after hours of work because I wasn't satisfied.

 

[Asomath]

It’s an excruciatingly difficult process. But maybe if we consolidate our resources, and give our users the environment to work with people they've known for the past few years, then perhaps this endeavor can bear some fruit.

~Asomath

 

[Karawasa]

Creating a game is not as fun as you'd think it is.

Creating a game and modding a game are two different things. This is such a true statement on your part.

 

[Kingz]

Creating a game is not as fun as you'd think it is.

I would say it depends on who you are making it with ^^

 

[Arcisal]

Are we only focusing on game engines?

What about Python? Making a small basic game is a good way to begin coding. Introducing Flash also allows us to accommodate animation, which I am very fond of.

 

[Crazed_seal2]

You might as well create an entire section dedicated to programming languages, and have those dedicated to a single on.

Programming
- C++
- C# / Visual Basic [.Net]
- Ruby
- Python

Kind of a like a site that must not be named!

 

[Nestharus]

If we're going to move to game engines, we need resources to support those game engines to make game creation easier. The problem with game engines as compared to wc3 is the timeline for creating games on them as well as communities for testing them.

The pros of wc3 are that you can make a high quality game in a very short period of time (a few months vs a few years). Furthermore, you have a platform to easily distribute that game (b.net).

With game engines, there is no platform to easily distribute and download games. Sure, you can use Steam, but it's not like b.net where you can just browse game lobbies and join up.

The other thing is again the timeline. People have fun in wc3 testing out ideas and getting immediate results with their work. They can put out a game in a couple of weeks and immediately start playing it. Using a game engine is a whole other deal and a lot more work.


If there is going to be expansions, there needs to be a ton of coded resources to help make game development in things like UDK easier. For example, full combat systems, AI systems, and so on and so on. From here, we need a large library of models, textures, and etc like there is for wc3, except that the models also need to be in many, many different art styles. One of the big things in games is that the art style stay constant : \. This has been ez in wc3 as the art style was already defined by Blizzard. In a regular game, not so easy.

Yes, it would be cool to move into game engines, but the games would take so much longer to make. If we consider all of the super high quality projects in wc3 that have taken forever to make, very few survive. Even fewer will survive with real games made using game engines ; |.

I am a firm believe that SC2 is a dead end. Really, there are 0 good games to mod right now (like wc3 was). The only logical option is to move to a game engine, but that would again require a lot more work and determination. Also, solo projects would be extremely long and extremely grueling : |. Furthermore, the results you get out of these games likely won't look as good as wc3 or SC2 with 50x the effort.


If we have a massive library of models and textures that dwarfs wc3 and tons and tons of highly modular systems that allows for rapid game creation + tons of editors for things like advanced AI using behavior trees or adaptive AI or w/e, this would start to be possible. We'd also need some way to easily get SQL Servers up for games and to easily get games hosted on servers : |. If you notice, most people enjoy making multiplayer games, and who has the money to pay for a server to host it.


Really, I don't see how this is possible w/o finding a lot of very experienced very talented volunteers. I can certainly put up my damage handling system in c++ to help start the process, but I am very doubtful that more than a small handful of people will help out, which will make this entire endeavor pointless ;o.

 

[~Void~]

I would say it depends on who you are making it with ^^

This. Shooting the shit with a really cool dev team is fun no matter what you're working on (obviously, with some exceptions!).

Furthermore I'd say that some genres of games are much more fun to design than others. Anything with "realistic" graphics, shooters, etc. are generally pretty boring, but platformers and puzzle games are really fun to make.

Anyway, I don't think any of that should really stand in the way of making a few subforums.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

You guys are full of delusion

If I were a developer or someone who wanted to use such forum, would I stay at a site that has vague plans to add some engine related forums or would I go to a place devoted for it? Of course I would go to a place where people know it all, the members are into that as well and can get help and people with common interest in developing.

For the same reason I realized sc2 has no place here - as some told you you've missed the train, you cannot catch up with the ones who already do sc2, well isn't this the same about game engines? You missed the train, so how is this any better?

What you're trying to do here, Ralle? Lots of the people come here to ask for help with War3, make maps or ask for models and such. Now are you trying to kill the War3 community as well?

Imagine a place where the focus is game engines that no one but few 10-20-30 not more and certainly not as many as those who find it better to do things on war3 - do things. Pyritie who went into such thing I am sure uses his own places for that, where he can get help etc.

Yes this could be just a section and not modify the current war3 community. In all this I see THW remaining as a war3 community as the best option. At least you can do things in war3 like mapmaking even when newer games are out unlike Broodwar for example where a newer game with the ability to import models and do more things certainly made it goodbye for modding in broodwar or war2.

Just my 2 cents and that much I will say.

 

[Skycraft]

You guys are full of delusion

If I were a developer or someone who wanted to use such forum, would I stay at a site that has vague plans to add some engine related forums or would I go to a place devoted for it? Of course I would go to a place where people know it all, the members are into that as well and can get help and people with common interest in developing.

For the same reason I realized sc2 has no place here - as some told you you've missed the train, you cannot catch up with the ones who already do sc2, well isn't this the same about game engines? You missed the train, so how is this any better?

What you're trying to do here, Ralle? Lots of the people come here to ask for help with War3, make maps or ask for models and such. Now are you trying to kill the War3 community as well?

Imagine a place where the focus is game engines that no one but few 10-20-30 not more and certainly not as many as those who find it better to do things on war3 - do things. Pyritie who went into such thing I am sure uses his own places for that, where he can get help etc.

Yes this could be just a section and not modify the current war3 community. In all this I see THW remaining as a war3 community as the best option. At least you can do things in war3 like mapmaking even when newer games are out unlike Broodwar for example where a newer game with the ability to import models and do more things certainly made it goodbye for modding in broodwar or war2.

Just my 2 cents and that much I will say.

This my friends, is an example of an idiot living in the past that can't look to the future.

 

[Hemske]

...

First of all, we are simply talking about opening subforums for this, which would not "kill the wc3 part of Hive" at all. It is not like we are only talking games because we have a forum for it here at Hive.

And second of all, I would embrace a subforum for this kind of gamemaking/game engine work. I love Hive, and I use it to hang out with my friends here, and to do some game modding/making here as well would be very much welcomed in my eyes.

To have as much possibilities as possible at this site does not hinder, nor destroy anything here at all. We are not talking about a complete revamp of this forum to a game-making one, as we all know there are other forums better for that. We simply want to branch out to some other roads than only wc3 as it currently is.

And well, if the game-engine section becomes big here, than we can talk about that then.
Though, I honestly don't see any problem with dedicating a bigger part of Hive for this, if we were to discover the interest and skill with our users. The major part will always, no matter what, stay at wc3 anyways.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

And then they tell me I start offending first, right Skycraft? No, I am pretty much moving to newer stuff, and totally like new things, I don't like DIE HARDz like 1 guy that I argue about he tells me how BW is better never tried sc2.

It's just that I see why this place is better off as war3 - as some said, it's better to make a fantasy map there than a game where all is futuristic and requires a lot of import. So I think this place is better as a war3 place. After seeing some opininons th guys were right about that and I agree this isn't a place for example for sc2 as I expected in the past. Expanding to newer things is FINE but the focus - must remain on War3!

This is a SU GESH CHUN! and as such you are free to bash it cause I don't really care, I just felt like saying what I think about this place and which game to go with it contrary to what I've said in the past.

 

[Karawasa]

You guys are full of delusion

If I were a developer or someone who wanted to use such forum, would I stay at a site that has vague plans to add some engine related forums or would I go to a place devoted for it? Of course I would go to a place where people know it all, the members are into that as well and can get help and people with common interest in developing.

For the same reason I realized sc2 has no place here - as some told you you've missed the train, you cannot catch up with the ones who already do sc2, well isn't this the same about game engines? You missed the train, so how is this any better?

What you're trying to do here, Ralle? Lots of the people come here to ask for help with War3, make maps or ask for models and such. Now are you trying to kill the War3 community as well?

Imagine a place where the focus is game engines that no one but few 10-20-30 not more and certainly not as many as those who find it better to do things on war3 - do things. Pyritie who went into such thing I am sure uses his own places for that, where he can get help etc.

Yes this could be just a section and not modify the current war3 community. In all this I see THW remaining as a war3 community as the best option. At least you can do things in war3 like mapmaking even when newer games are out unlike Broodwar for example where a newer game with the ability to import models and do more things certainly made it goodbye for modding in broodwar or war2.

Just my 2 cents and that much I will say.

I had to quote the whole thing because it is so true.

I've come to the conclusion that THW will become obsolete. The truth hurts but this is it. You guys do WC3 better than anyone else. Stick with that. You can't catch up with SC2Mapster and you can't catch up with forums dedicated to game engines.

Besides, as Nestharus pointed out even if it were possible to catch up you guys simply lack the talent to do so. Modding WC3 is to real game development as a kiddie bike is to mountain biking.

 

[Pharaoh_]

You guys do WC3 better than anyone else. Stick with that. You can't catch up with SC2Mapster and you can't catch up with forums dedicated to game engines.

This is the fifth post that I see you comparing the site to SC2Mapster. Next time I'll consider it as an Ad. You've told the public how you feel that this site can't catch up with that one, don't spam it though.

That's the goal yes. Will it ever be reached? Who knows. But even if it is, what will be the purpose of this site? WC3 is a dead end. SC2 can't catch up with SC2Mapster. So...what then?

Uh ya...you must be delusional. The Hive is not going to become a good SC2 site. That is wishful thinking. Someone please explain how you guys are going to catch up with SC2Mapster? What does a bunch of immature WC3 modders have to offer for SC2?

Can someone explain how you guys plan to catch up with SC2Mapster? What does a bunch of immature WC3 modders have to offer for SC2?

Clearly you haven't modded SC2. Furthermore, you didn't answer the question. Why would anyone come here for SC2 help when SC2Mapster does it better (and with more mature people)?

 

[Karawasa]

This is the fifth post that I see you comparing the site to SC2Mapster. Next time I'll consider it as an Ad. You've told the public how you feel that this site can't catch up with that one, don't spam it though.

You know...you're right. I've beaten the horse into a dead pulp and a lot of people here still think it is alive. I'll stop wasting my time.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Is the old Pharaoh gone? Did becoming this 'incredible thing (it seems) called staff, corrupt your kindness as well?

I am not even fan of the sc2 site mentioned so much, I only use it for getting help, and people are helpful and not trolling and not calling names (however I am the bad guy, right Pharaoh? others' words to me don't count as insults) he is saying THW is for war3 what that other site is for sc2.

When I joined THW in 2004, as this is my 2nd account, I saw how active and full of people it is, I chose it over WC3C, War3IncGamers, TheHelpernet, Battleforums (my old forum where I was staff now full of spambots and is graveyard - btw was affiliated in the list below in the good ol' past),

So yes THW is better to focus on war3 which it has always been for while you add your Engines Forums (which would be with the same 'activity' as sc2)

 

[Skycraft]

eImtoR, Ralle is merely attempting to expand onto broader horizons to give more opportunities for modders to work on actual modding equipment so that their talents don't go to waste whilst they can still participate within the community.

It might not have a lot of activity to begin with but it's a healthier alternative than sticking to an one game that would eventually go stale in the long-run.

 

[Karawasa]

When I joined THW in 2004, as this is my 2nd account, I saw how active and full of people it is, I chose it over WC3C, War3IncGamers, TheHelpernet, Battleforums.

That's interesting. I would argue that the only WC3 sites worth anything were TH, THW, and WC3C. TH was a great place for a noob. WC3C was a great place for a pro. THW was in the middle. Of course, these days THW is virtually the only one left.

It might not have a lot of activity to begin with but it's a healthier alternative than sticking to an one game that would eventually go stale in the long-run.

I sincerely hope that it works out for you guys. My advice would be to focus on one engine...and avoid SC2. That engine should be Unity. It has the best balance of power and usability for the people here.

 

[Pharaoh_]

Is the old Pharaoh gone? Did becoming this 'incredible thing (it seems) called staff, corrupt your kindness as well?

I am not even fan of the sc2 site mentioned so much, I only use it for getting help, and people are helpful and not trolling and not calling names (however I am the bad guy, right Pharaoh? others' words to me don't count as insults) he is saying THW is for war3 what that other site is for sc2.

When I joined THW in 2004, as this is my 2nd account, I saw how active and full of people it is, I chose it over WC3C, War3IncGamers, TheHelpernet, Battleforums (my old forum where I was staff now full of spambots and is graveyard - btw was affiliated in the list below in the good ol' past)

If you are referring to Skycraft, I did what I had done to your post/reputation as well. I won't be presenting you with excuses all the time. If you still want this discussed, I can open the topic back, in the Admin Contact.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

^ Nope no need to discuss, I am done here at THW let this be my final post. I was just making an opinion about a place I will not use anymore but since I agreed about it and war3, I just felt like saying it. Move on to the topic.

 

[Ralle]

I am not trying to kill WC3. The site won't be any less about WC3, I just want more reasons for people to visit the site.
Yes, currently people go to other sites for (insert topic here), but that doesn't prevent me from expanding. And is it pointless? Wasn't it pointless that we had just another social network called Facebook? What I mean is that if we get competitive in the area, we will start growing in that area, so it is not stupid at all. We just need to put some work into it. Make some tutorials, gather knowledge. That is the reason people started visiting The Hive back in the day, so what blocks me from doing it again with another topic?

 

[1)ark_NiTe]

Ah, I long for the glory days of THW. The only way it would even be possible for the site to return to anything close to what it was is for WC4 to be released. We all know that's not happening any time soon. It pains me to say it but I think some of the others in here are right when they say we should stick to WC3. That's what we do and it's what we've always done. Of course there is always room for a new subforum, including a game engine one, and I'm sure there is a niche of dedicated users that would enjoy such a thing. However, in all sincerity there isn't much of a future outside of Warcraft for us. In spite of that, I'll still be here til the end enjoying the community we've built over the better part of a decade.

 

[Ralle]

I would see it as an advantage to grow an old site with active members than create an entirely new one that nobody knew of. Expanding to a game engine would grow that section faster than creating a new site about that game engine because of word of mouth, pagerank and currently active members.

 

[Asomath]

Indeed, as Ralle has stated, all that’s needed to start is a bit of effort. It’s not like life is being sucked away from WC3 to provide for this endeavor.

We can’t know for sure what will happen until we try. This is a world of unexpected things. Maybe it'll succeed, maybe it'll fail, but we might as well give it a shot.

~Asomath

 

[rover2341]

For me personally It would be XNA, as thats what i am dabbed into.
I choice it for its power, and simplicity. It may not have the power of some engines or going deeper, but its built on c# that's fairly easy to use.

Honestly i don't see alot of people on the hive jumping onto xna.


XNA - Xbox/Windows/Windows Phone
Sliverlight - Runs On all platforms, Uses C#.


But I liked hes suggestion...

Programming
- C++
- C# / Visual Basic [.Net]
- Ruby
- Python

Maybe start there, and see what keeps coming up, if people there keep bring up xna or some other engine, then perhaps it can be thrown in to the programming section.

The other idea, is for you to pick one you think wont be a each stretch for people to learn that have come C or c++ or java background to move into and pick quickly.

As I think a key is the that its not to complex, or to much to learn to get started on it.

 

[syltman]

I guess it's not a game engine but java + slick would be really cool. It's easy to learn as well and gives you a lot of freedom also it's highly portable to other platforms since it's java.

As for the people suggesting ruby and python AFAIK those are terrible for performance.

I also really don't want something that is windows/mac exclusive as a linux user.

 

[rover2341]

Sliver-light runs on Linux , and can now do full 3d games, as you can run xna inside of it.